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Author Topic: I don't think that just because a deck isn't a su...  (Read 8124 times)
Matt The Great
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« on: April 01, 2003, 01:35:21 am »

I don't think that just because a deck isn't a sure-fire Tier One deck that it can't be tinkered with during its "time on the bench". In that sentiment, I made a white/green control deck.

//NAME: Lime Parfait
// Engine {11}
        1 Pursuit of Knowledge
        3 Sterling Grove
        3 Sylvan Library
        4 Enchantress's Presence
// Survival {7}
        3 Orim's Chant
        1 Story Circle*
        2 Humility
        1 Zuran Orb
// Removal {12}
        1 Balance
        2 Wrath of God
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Pariah
        1 Seal of Cleansing
        2 Aura of Silence
        1 Tormod's Crypt
// Recursion {3}
        3 Replenish
// Kill {2}
        2 Sacred Mesa
// Mana {25}
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Serra's Sanctum
        1 Library of Alexandria
        3 Windswept Heath
        4 Savannah
        3 Forest
        5 Plains
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Aegis of Honor*
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  2 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  1 Abeyance*
SB:  1 Orim's Chant
SB:  2 Argothian Enchantress*
SB:  2 Choke
SB:  1 Replenish
SB:  1 Wasteland


Asteriks indicate slots that are 'iffy'.


WHAT AND WHY IS THIS DECK, ANYWAY?

It's like parfait, it's like enchantress. I think it has most of enchantress' advantages over Parfait, with only a few of its disadvantages, and thus can rightly be a deck worth investing time in. It's more resistant to combo decks than either of the aforementioned decks, due to the preponderance of disenchant-effects. By 'resistant' I mean that I played against an Underworld Dreams deck 2-1 and a Dragon deck (post-april, I THINK, though he could have just gotten unlucky) 1-2. Of those Dragon games, the second loss was because he used a transformational sideboard that I wasn't expecting and caught me without any wraths or Balance. I still nearly pulled it out, if I'd had one more life the game would have been mine.

Granted, this is not exactly enough to say anything conclusive as to whether it's better than Parfait against combo, but it is surely a good omen.


WHY THIS IS BETTER THAN PARFAIT

1. Parfait relies heavily on finding and resolving a two-card combo. Neither part of the combo is truly amazing on its own. This deck only needs to resolve one of the seven green card-drawing enchantments to outpace control. It also has many shuffle effects, making the Sylvans powerful.
2. Tutors make it faster. You don't have to go looking for your win condition, you can just go get it yourself.
3. Sterling Grove protects against Allay and is much better at doing so than a random, hard-to-find-when-needed Claws of Gix.


WHY PARFAIT IS BETTER THAN THIS
1. God-like manabase, though an increasing number of decks (Gro/Tog and TNT) are cutting down on their Wasteland counts, minimizing this advantage.
2. Blood Moon. I think I can live without this god-slayer of a card, but I miss it.


WHY THIS IS BETTER THAN ENCHANTRESS

1. I think Enchantress wastes too much time setting up by cantripping itself into more setup cards, rather than cards meant for doing business.
2. Enchantress, with its dual-heavy manabase and craving for a full set of Jewelery, is expensive as all hell to actually construct.
3. Far stronger manabase. Eight basics plus three Heaths (looking to go to four!) is strongly resisant to NBLH, one of Enchantress' biggest weaknesses. I fear Back to Basics not, nor Blood Moon. Wasteland is annoying when it keeps me from getting to four mana, but as far as color concerns go, it's not a problem. Enchantress, on the other hand, is forced to run things like multiple City of Brass to keep it from being cut off from a color.
4. Four maindeck Swords to Plowshares are worth their weight in gold nowadays. They range from spectacular to useful in every matchup except non-creature-combo (Academy, non-Rector versions of Trix) and Keeper. That's a LOT of the field.
5. Humility. This card is great in so many matchups - it's useful against Keeper, TNT, Gro/Tog, monoblue, every cheap aggro deck, and even Dragon and Pandeburst. It's far better than both Moat AND Abyss. Morphling decks can't use it, but Mesa decks can.
6. I don't have to rely on resolving a 4cc enchantment to win against aggro. This deck can live, for a time, on less than four mana.


WHY ENCHANTRESS IS BETTER THAN THIS
1. Sligh. I have not tested the matchup yet, but I would expect Sligh to be a fierce matchup without a Worship lock. I expect that even through a Humility-Mesa 'lock' they could easily burn me out before I ramped up enough tokens to win the game, especially since they have no other use for their bolts.


CARDS I TESTED AND DROPPED

1. Enlightened Tutor. Sometimes useful, often weak, never great.
2. Soldevi Digger. The conventional wisdom is right - you just don't need it. It would have been fun to get someone in a Digger/Chant lock, though.
3. Mox Diamond. Again, the conventional wisdom is right - you never have a land you want to throw away.
4. A fourth Sylvan. It made the deck ultra-consistent but they weren't realy useful in multiples.
5. Land Tax. This may yet find its way back because of its synergy with Sylvan Library, but I doubt I'll ever feel the need.


SURELY THIS ISN'T A FINAL PRODUCT? LOOK AT ALL THAT MESS!

In fact, there are several changes I would like.

I DEFINITELY would like more acceleration - a little more "brokenness" -  but that's a sort of pipe dream. Mox Diamond treated me right, but it's also treated me wrong, too.

I would like a fourth Chant maindeck, as well as a fourth Heath.

Maybe I should cut a Plains for fourth Wasteland, but then, I think I want a 26th mana source anyway (probably a Heath).

The Argothian Enchantresses in the sideboard are a curiosity. They're hard to use because you often want a Humility in play even against control decks. These slots are VERY up in the air.\n\n

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pernicious dude
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2003, 09:21:43 am »

Cool. I was thinking the other day that
the biggest problem with Enchantress was the Enchantress.

BTW, CooberP's Enchantress also dies to Sligh.
For your Sligh matchup, consider Words of Worship.

Turn 2 Sylvan,
turn 3 Words,
turn 4 and any turn you need to,
draw no cards and gain 15 life.

Zuran Orb probably wants to be Claws of Gix.
You don't need to lose lands to Tax,
and you do need to beat Shattering Pulse and Allay.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2003, 10:16:55 am »

Matt: you certainly could have picked a better day to post this.  

Anyway, I understand that Cooberp had success with Samite Ministration in the board. Would that be worth it here? Words of Worship also sounds interesting, but it's pretty useless on its own. Ivory Mask would stop their targeted stuff, while Keg could get rid of their guys, scrolls, and Ankhs.
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Hanzalot
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2003, 02:32:30 pm »

WHY ENCHANTRESS IS BETTER THAN THIS

Add: Duress. The loss of this hurts.

That said I have also been playing "Old School Enchantress" lately. It seems to work better for me since I aren't facing that much control and since I need the more stable mana base.

I don't understand why you aren't playing Argothian Enchantress though. Presence comes down a whole turn later which is huge and argothian is already really hard to get rid off for your opponent. This also allows Worship which makes Sligh a lot (a lot!) easier. I play 4 Argothian / 2 Presence MD, which provides a wicked amount of card drawing.

Without Enlightened Tutor aren't both ZOrb and Tormod's Crypt kindda random? I myself play Enlightened over the 4th Grove since it allows me to fetch artifacts.

4 StP seems to be one too much which also applies to Orim's Chant. Wouldn't the 4th Replenish be better in one of those slots. I'm also wondering if Wrath of God is needed. I often found that all these non-permanent creature control cards would just clog my hand since I already had a permanent solution down. However, obviously you do need a certain minimum of these to buy time.

COncerning Orim's Chant and anti-counter cards I've gone the Enchantress route and play a City of Solitude MD, which is something to consider (although chant of course can be used to buy time vs. aggro).

I think you should add the 4th Heath since you're a bit low on green mana sources and since it's just too good with Sylvans.

Samite Ministration is a very good SB card in my opinion.
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theorigamist
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2003, 02:52:04 pm »

I think Words of Worship makes a good anti-Sligh card if you don't want to run Argothian Enchantress/Worship (which I assume is because of the vulnerability of the creature Enchantress versus the enchantment).
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Hanzalot
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2003, 03:21:21 pm »

@theorigamist: I just don't think the extra turn Enchantress's Presence takes is worth the fact that it is harder to kill. First of all some decks side in Aura Fracture or Allay which can then take out all of your draw engine. Secondly because of TnT, Mask and so on, Naturalize has become standard in practically all other decks, which means that Enchantress's Presence isn't that much harder to kill, if at all (edict, balance and powder keg vs. seal of cleansing, naturalize, aura fracture and allay). I really don't think this slight advantage is worth a whole turn. Without pearl, emerald, lotus or sol ring ou want draw any cards until your 4th turn something I don't think you can afford versus aggro.
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TracerBullet
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2003, 03:37:03 pm »

It really makes me sad that we've resorted to calling a W/G Enchantment-based control deck that uses a Key card with Enchantress in the title "Lime Parfait."  Thank you very much, Coober.
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pernicious dude
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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2003, 03:42:47 pm »

If you leave Sterling Grove on the table,
you really only fear Aura Fracture and Allay,
cards which are pretty much restricted to Keeper.
The payoff is that you get to run Balance.
I hear paying 1W to clear the table of Togs, Dryads & Morphlings is a pretty good deal.
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Kheoinn
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2003, 05:04:37 pm »

Can you sacrifice the grove in reponse to counter the allay, because it now has no target?
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2003, 05:46:01 pm »

If somebody casts Allay on Sterling Grove, you can sac it in response to make Allay fizzle and nullify the buyback.

pernicious dude, regular Enchantress runs Balance too, unless I'm mistaken.

Hanzalot, while Enchantress's Presence may be slower than the 1G Enchantresses, it also has horrible synergy with 5 maindeck cards (Humility, Balance, and Wrath of God).  On top of that, it's protected and fetchable by Sterling Grove, it's Replenishable, it's an enchantment which fuels other Enchantresses, and it makes ALL of their creature removal useless.  Naturalize can always find a target, things like Edict, Keg, and other removal of the sort won't always have a target.
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FiReaNG3L
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« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2003, 05:46:38 pm »

Weird, i've been working on a deck of this style for 2-3 weeks or so... Note that i wouldnt call it parfait nor enchantress... it's just... different.

My decklist is a little different from yours, and is geared for an aggro metagame. Note too that i made some choices that i'm still not sure about.

//Tutoring and protection
4xSterling Grove

3xSylvan Library

//Lock
2xWords of Worship
1xZur's Weirding

//Oath engine
4xOath of Druids
2xGaea's Blessing
2xSpike Weaver
1xAkroma, Angel of Wrath

//Card drawing
4xEnchantress Presence
1xAbundance

//Creature Control
1xBalance
1xIsland Sanctuary -- Replacement for moat ($$ reason, works well anyway with sylvan)
1xPariah

1xStory Circle
2xReplenish
1xSeal of Cleansing
1xAura of silence

//ManaBase
2xTundra
3xForest
3xPlains
4xSavannah
4xFlooded Strand
4xMishra's Factory
1xSerra's Sanctum
4xTithe
1xSol ring

2xOpen slots

Ok, now for some explanations. Oath and Replenish in the same deck you say? Well, as cooberp himself noted, sometimes it can be very good to mill yourself, then cast replenish. It can happen more often than not, especially if you hold a blessing in your hand (to lessen odds of hitting one).

Akroma is odd too, but its the best i can run for my manabase, not enough blue to run morphling  Anyway, she dies only to StP and kick some major butt on offense and defense... i guess it can always be sided out vs keeper.

I figured out that i might as well be running Zur's Weirding, since i'm already running some usefull cards that combo well with it (Words of worship and abundance). More often than not, it spells game over when it resolve.

For the 2 open slots, i've been toying with 2 StP, but i think it might be going over the board on creature control... but without them i have no real answers to Welder & Nought... might run them in side. I tried 2x Holistic Wisdom in that slot too (combo well with oath, since it's ability can be used in response to blessing trigger) and in the same vein, 2xArgivian Find (same tutor at instant speed idea).

Let me know what you think if you have some interesting ideas... i think that in the aggro meta the field seems to be switching to, this kind of deck might have some potential.
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Kheoinn
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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2003, 07:22:56 pm »

Quote from: Rico Suave+April 01 2003,14:46
Quote (Rico Suave @ April 01 2003,14:46)If somebody casts pernicious dude, regular Enchantress runs Balance too, unless I'm mistaken.
Yes, but its not a wrath if you have enchantresses, which means it probably won't kill 'naughts, 'togs, dryads, or morphlings a lot.

Note: Claws of Gix stops all of the buyback spells cold.
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TracerBullet
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2003, 10:53:05 pm »

Quote
Quote Note: Claws of Gix stops all of the buyback spells cold.
And blows against anything that's not a Buyback spell.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2003, 01:06:37 am »

About buyback: first, I only care about fizzling Allay.
Second, Sterling Grove is the perfect answer to Allay. None of this Claws of Gix business - it's not tutorable, protectable, recurrable, or cantrip-able. The end.

Claws is also not better than Zuran Orb at life gaining, because it requires mana (incredibly bad) and only gives one life/permanent (weak but not so bad).

Quote
Quote I don't understand why you aren't playing Argothian Enchantress though.
Humility.

I don't want to use Words of Worship because it's soooo dead. It MIGHT find a place in the sideboard, but certainly not maindeck, and it's the maindeck I'm worried about.

TracerBullet, it's not sad. This is MEANT to be a parfait with green added in (note I didn't say 'splashed'). Hence the redundant removal cards like the full set of Swords and multiple Wraths. The Humilities also mark a huge change from Argothian Enchantress-based decks.

This also applies as to Hanzalot's comment, explaining why it's ok that I won't be drawing any extra cards until turn three or four: because this deck is NOT Enchantress-reliant. It would not be as accurate to call this an enchantress deck as what I have chosen.

Fireangel: What you have there really isn't like my deck at all. You've got an Oath deck, to be sure, and that's a significant step away from parfait decks.
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Hanzalot
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2003, 02:38:55 am »

Yeah, I also started wondering if I was just thinking too much about Enchantress and not enough about Parfait. Probably because I like Enchantress better myself and thus play Enchantress/(parfait) while your playing Parfait/(enchantress).

Concerning Argothian Enchantress the loss of Worship versus Sligh is bad, so I think you should try Words of Wisdom as was mentioned in the above (though I haven't tried it myself).

Concerning your iffy SB cards I think you should replace the lone Abeyance with a City of Solitude (fetchable and protectable with grove, as well as "replenishable").
I think the 2 Argothian Enchantress's are a good choice to side in versus control (well of course I think they're great against anything, but...).
Maybe change 2 Tormod's Crypt to 2 Samite Ministrations if Sligh is bothering you.

I still can't see how you can rely on getting ZOrb when you need it with no tutor to fetch your lone copy (and the "delayed card drawing from Presence). Notice that this was a concern in Enchantress as well, which made Cooberb add black and thereby Overgrown Estate (of course other factors also played a role).
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TracerBullet
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2003, 03:07:57 am »

What makes me sad is the people who can't tell the difference between saying Enchantress and 4c Enchantress.
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pernicious dude
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2003, 09:14:14 am »

@Matt - I wasn't suggesting the Words main.

@FiReaNG3L

Quote
Quote 1xIsland Sanctuary -- Replacement for moat ($$ reason, works well anyway with sylvan)

Used to work with Sylvan, doesn't anymore.
Now if you draw any, you put two back.
Pursuit Of Knowledge and Abundance still work because you skip all of the draws, so there's nothing to put back.
The Words also work, but only if you skip all three draws.


Quote
Quote people who can't tell the difference between saying Enchantress and 4c Enchantress

That would be the result of two years of CooberP popping up and saying
"No, dude, Enchantress is my deck. Call yours something else."
every time some kid posted a Yavimaya Enchantress deck as "Enchantress".
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Petey4335
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2003, 12:17:01 am »

Now without having Argothian Enchantresses in the deck and using Sacred Mesa as he kill card, would Drop of Honey actually be useful?
Quote
Quote Drop of Honey  Enchantment G  
 During your upkeep, the creature in play with the lowest power is destroyed and cannot be regenerated. If there is a tie you choose which to destroy. Drop of Honey must be discarded if there are no creatures in play.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2003, 12:33:19 am »

Say now.
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Chen
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2003, 02:34:21 pm »

I was testing this deck a bit, and found that Words of Worship maindeck isnt as dead as I thought it would be. Alone, it certainly isnt great but combined with either a Pressence or a Sylvan its quite useful at stopping aggro cold. Further, with a Sylvan it allows you to draw cards at a much more reasonable cost (life wise). Now I havent tested it really thoroughly but from what I've seen so far, it definately should be looked at rather than just dismissed completely.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2003, 02:50:31 pm »

I'm currently wondering if Kirtar's Desire and/or Drop of Honey could be really good. Will report back when ready.
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Juggernaught
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2003, 10:25:15 am »

What about fastbond?
I think it's pretty nice to have, and especially when you go off with the drawing in midgame.
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Juggernaught
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2003, 03:11:40 am »

Btw, i actually think this, with a little opting, might be the optimal parfait build. The main reason is that the land tax engine has found a great replacer. The most annoying thing with normal parfait is that the deck must stay low on mana for the engine to work, but still needs 4+ mana to play it's real threats and 5+ mana to even have a chance to win the game. Here you can start playing lands without worrying.
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SpikeyMikey
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2003, 05:08:39 am »

If sligh is a problem I would think that conversion answers that problem, rather handily, and with presence, it cantrips, and the upkeep is negligible, because with conversion on the board, your opponent isn't doing shit unless they've got a ruby or lotus, and since most sligh decks went over to flaring pain from anarchy long ago, you're fucking stylin.  Their only chance is to win thru scroll or ankh, both of which are easily disenchantable, and scroll is ass when you can't empty your hand.  So many red hosers available, aegis, words, conversion, glaciers, ivory mask, etc.
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rout
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2003, 12:34:17 am »

I was thinking about Ground seal vs welders (cool tech) for the double cantrip but you already have Humilities so nm.

And also since every parfait/enchantress player hates to see deeds what about Life Force?

Life Force (uncommon)
GG
GG:  counter target black spell

Fastbond rocks to, and maybe Compost for the sb.
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PsychoCid
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2003, 12:50:07 am »

Look, Matty, you have fans!  Although some are from Indiana, so maybe you'll want to downplay that.  Rofl.

I'd be somewhat surprised if Matt didn't run Composts.  I don't still have the list, but, you know, whatever.

Life Force might be a possibility, but what comes to mind is that GG might not be easy to come up with as early as you need it.

Just chiming in.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2003, 03:02:53 am »

GG is indeed really bad, especially against disruption. Keeping GG open is worse.

No, I wasn't running Composts in the side, but then black isn't really that big in the metagame right now.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2003, 06:23:37 am »

The initial post certainly fit the criteria of the Extreme Vintage forum, but the replies that followed were less thought out and more fitting to the standard Type 1 forum. Moved.
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