Metagame Changes

[Azhrei]

It's a bit late and I have a long day ahead of me, but I wanted to write this down while the idea was still fresh in my head.

I think that the typical archetypes of Magic, as far as Type One is concerned, are dead and dying. Control, combo, and aggro are no longer adequate strategies with which to compete in the modern metagame.

A quick review of top decks, in no order:

1. Keeper

Since the use of Yawgmoth's Will, Keeper has become increasingly combo-oriented in that it uses a "big turn" to dominate the game. The inclusion of Brainstorms, fetchlands, and now Future Sight in the Paragons build has furthered this trend. Some Keeper builds run the Power Artifact combo as well. Keeper has become control/combo.

2. Mask

This is very plainly aggro/combo, and has replaced Stompy, Suicide, and Sligh as the "look at the opening hand and decide the outcome" deck of the environment.

3. TnT

The closest thing to a pure aggro deck left in the upper echelon, it still uses a draw engine and has tremendous synergy in its contents-- so much so that it can do amazing things with Survival of the Fittest and Goblin Welder.

4. GroAtog

This deck is aggro/control. It is like a Fish deck on a 'roid rage, and acts in all the ways that the original Fish decks did.

5. Hulk

This is control/combo. It beats up pure aggro decks like it is combo, but it plays a control matchup versus Keeper.

Edit: Stax is proving itself to be quite good, although not quite any archetype... it's like combo/aggro/Controlish.

So what decks are NOT as viable now?

1. Stompy

Purest aggro. Totally dead.

2. Suicide

Probably, in my opinion, the best of the aggro decks now because of the amount of disruption it contains. It has some proactive control elements.

3. Sligh

At a low point because its major weapons, Price of Progress, Red Elemental Blast, and Wasteland, are not sufficient to combat several of the hybrid decks, GroAtog and Mask in particular.

4. Monoblue

Nearly unplayable because it is pure control and cannot handle the hybrid decks either.

5. Reap, Academy

Pure combo decks cannot compete reliably either in the current setting because Mask can be faster, and the aggro/control and combo/control have enough countermagic to win. Even TnT can outrace these decks, and it should have the worst matchup of all.

I think that three things are clear:

1) Single-minded deck strategies are becoming extinct as hybrid strategies begin to prosper and dominate.

2) The environment as a whole is picking up speed and the big turns are happening sooner.

3) Decks that do not have the possibility of "going off" are less and less viable.

Well, that's all I have for now. Thoughts?

[TracerBullet]

Quote (Azhrei @ April 12 2003,19:20)3) Decks that do not have the possibility of "going off" are less and less viable.

That depends on what you would define as "going off."  I would certainly think that a 1st turn Ritual Duress Hymn could be called going off.  As such, I don't think that's a fair judgement.  Hell, Bolt, Fireblast, Fork is 11 points of damage for 3 mana.  That sure as hell looks like going off to me.


More importantly, I think what we currently expect out of an aggro deck, a control deck, and a combo deck is adjusting, but not changing as a whole.  Control has to evolve into a more explosive form, as the aggro and aggro-control decks have gotten consistently faster and faster.  This is to be expected; Keeper has gotten consistently more and more pro-active (that hurt me to say it, but I had to) since the days of KJ Outpost.  As the cardpool has gotten larger, it's only inevitable that the cards used become more and more powerful on the whole.

The reason that decks need to have the ability to "go off" as you percieve it is because silver bullets have not gotten any better since Saga.  There is no longer a way to end most decks with a single card.  This is the primary reason that Control decks have gotten less and less reactive; their reactions will no longer single-handedly win the game.

Do I think that the terms Control, Aggro, and Combo are no longer relavent?  Not at all.  TnT, Parfait, and Full English Breakfast are all perfect examples of the prototype of their genre.  The biggest difference now is that the control decks haven't recognized what the current metagame silver-bullets are.  They're starting to; more Blood Moons are being seen maindeck, and people are now starting to find ways to work Pernicious Deed into their maindeck.  U/r Phid and Keeper now run the Shattering Pulses to be wished for, and such narrow minded cards as Chains of Mephistopheles and Sphere of Resistence are even coming out of the woodwork.

The lines of distinction still exist;  we just have to recognize where they've shifted.

[Smmenen]

I agree very much with what you said.  However, I would add to that.  Groatog is almost an Aggro-Control Combo deck.

On another note.  In another thread you said that a central premise of a good t1 deck is inherent synergy.  One example you gave is that Gush might be a tempo loss in one deck, but Groatog turns it into an advantage.  

I'd like to comment on Stack.  I've done some testing of Stack (a slight variant on the Duelmen version) and I was shocked at how good Meditate was.  Imagine Smokestack in play with one, two, or three counters on it and it is turn 2-3 and I cast medidate.  Sorry to the deck accross the table.  They have two turns to sacrifice their permanents.  Stack doesn't seem to fit the conceptions well either - it is a crushing control deck that uses Karn to animate tangle Wires and Smokestacks which sets up a 1 turn lethal swing (which is sort of comboey).  

Steve Menendian\n\n

[Azhrei]

Academy used Meditate because once it cast it the game ended that turn; no drawback. Bypassing drawbacks is what makes good (or sometimes bad) cards broken.

I truly think that the better a deck can blur the lines between the archetypes, the better it will prove to be overall, provided it has a high level of synergy.

The "silver bullet" school of Magic has long since gone the way of the dodo.

(Or the way of the Dojo, in Magical terms ;[ -Cid)\n\n

[Kheoinn]

Isn't Keeper the largest proponent of the silver bullet strategy?
And to my knowledge, Keeper is still just as good as it always was (well, it may have gotten a little worse...).

And Parfait, as Master Tap said, it another big proponent of this strategy. I actually think it got better because its hosers are now more powerful with the rise of aggro (although the speed of GAt is sometimes overwhelming).

And of course metagame decks will always do well, like stax or Jason Jaco's "Thats your a$$ right there."

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Kheoinn @ April 13 2003,00:58)Isn't Keeper the largest proponent of the silver bullet strategy?
And to my knowledge, Keeper is still just as good as it always was (well, it may have gotten a little worse...).

And Parfait, as Master Tap said, it another big proponent of this strategy. I actually think it got better because its hosers are now more powerful with the rise of aggro (although the speed of GAt is sometimes overwhelming).

And of course metagame decks will always do well, like stax or Jason Jaco's "Thats your a$$ right there."

Keeper was until people started noticing that it's a bad idea to build a deck that scoops to the more common cards in that format.  Cards like Abyss, Balance, and Mind Twist, while still quite powerful, aren't one-card wins as often because people are building tighter decks that are less susceptible to silver bullets.

[Azhrei]

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible, but I have yet to personally witness Parfait doing well anywhere, despite it almost always showing up in greater numbers than any other deck.

[Kheoinn]

In 32 person tournaments I can reliably get Top 8. I consider that to be doing moderately well. I haven't even been playing Parfait for that long.

And, as Master Tap said, that argument can be transferred to Keeper as well. I have yet to see Keeper being played well. Does that mean it stinks? No. It just means that there are lots of bad players out there playing the deck and giving it a bad name.

But lets not turn this into a discussion of whether Parfait is good or not (Like a thread a little while back started by Meridian). No one will ever persuade anyone else without first hand experience, so its not worth arguing about.

I do think that Parfait is still an existing deck, and should be added to the list if it were to be updated.

And what about Ankh Sligh and Red Stompy? Red Stompy won the last big tournament I was at (although that could be a result of 6 or so ten years playing the deck at a 32 person tourney), beating out TnT and GAT for the win.

FEB is still pretty good as well, and Urphid isn't terrible due to its savage options with red (REB, Blood Moon, etc).

Thanks.

[Zherbus]

1. While I agree that it can do well as a metagame choice. Also, the importance of spot removal has made it better, but Parfait still isn't putting out many great performances in the reports I am reading and the places I have played. This is mostly just because it cannot say no, and even more so, its fragile draw engine makes it hard to overwhelm someone who can say no.

It is a good budget deck for the right scene, and I know of a few people who just so happen to be fantastic with it, but lets be realistic about Parfait. I think it should be mentioned, but it doesn't fit in either the format defining decks section (who really ever builds anything to beat Parfait) or the decks who aren't as viable section.

2. Ankh Sligh is very competitive, but with Tog around, I just see it as something I've never seen Sligh as before; a deck that has virtual autoloses to something that isn't combo. That said, Sligh used to be a fair deck to take to almost any metagame and expect to do well and now it has to actually consider the metagame.

Sligh, in its more traditional form will always be a thorn in deck builders sides everywhere. Firstly, SOMEONE always plays it. Secondly, there are tons more things people can do with their deck if only Sligh wasn't a consideration. I really want this to be listed with the format defining decks, but it still belongs in the section of 'not as viable'.

3. Goblin Sligh is just something that shouldn't be winning in a competent metagame if you ask me. It is right there with Stompy, and doesn't have the tricks that Ankh Sligh has. This definetly shouldn't be on the list as it drops to a standard in which we start throwing every old deck that pops up in our head.

4. Keeper not only is less about the Silver Bullet strategy than ever, but it is also getting more redundant than ever. When was the last time you have seen so few 1-ofs in Keeper?

[bebe]

I will just add a few comments ...

1) Combo decks can and will win their share of tournaments. Academy, Trix, FeB, Pandeburst, TurboNevyn and even High Tide make top eights consistently. There would be more in the top spots if more were played. Many combo decks require a level of skill that newer players have difficulty with and the experienced players tend to play Keeper, TnT, GAT and other so-called Tier 1 decks. I've done a lot of corresponding with the Europeans and they are all now investigating combo decks and i suspect some decks  ( ReapLace and others) to begin appearing in the Top eight.  

2) When Psyduck and NaChiv first began touting Stack decks there was a lot of skepticism on this site. I also played my version of Lock, Stock. Despite our tournament results no one gave the decks the credit they deserved until the Dulmen crowd played them to top finishes. Now its an overcrowded bandwagon and eveyone is an expert on the builds. The deck is a beast and a competent player can bring it to any meta and expect good results. Just be sure to take your caffiene ( I literaly drank four Jolt colas in toronto last time I played it).

3) As much as I respect Legend and Molo, I do not think Ankh Sligh to be a great deck. I think a few great players have given it respectability.

4) We all know that GAT is a great deck. But a 'fish deck on roids' ? Play Fish. it is entirely different in concept and it can beat GAT. And yes, I'm prejudiced. Phantom and I fought for respectability for over a year. The first primer I wrote was virtually ignored so I cajoled Phantom into writing another. Fish is a very good deck and I love what Pernicious has done to our baby. As for Hulk, it unfortunately loses to GAT. This is not a good thing.

5) Goblin Sligh, Zombie Suicide ( note - not Legend Black) both win because because they are blazingly fast. No they are not Tier 1. Yes, if the right match ups are there, they will win the odd tournament and rightfully so. Thew ability to do twenty points of damage between turns three and seven can be devastating. I'm currently playing a Zombie build that relies on uncounterable burn. This is bad for control.

6) With all respect to CF, we have been playing U/g Mask here for awhile. Although not broken it is a very tough nmatch for most decks and i defianately consider it one of the top decks.

7) TnT won two tournaments for me. Parfait kills it but non-the-less, this is a great deck. I stopped playing it only because there was nothing left for me to do with it. If i wanted to win a tournament badly enough this is the deck i would play.

8) Keeper won our last tournament ( used Future Wish). It was a good mix of decks that it plowed through as well ( including a first time TnTer). Keeper is alive and kicking with a new look. There are now at least three major variants as well, each designed for uts own meta. You have to repect 'the deck'.

So I would say that yes, the environment has speeded up.  

Decks that 'go off' include a very wide range and combo decks are still viable.

Single minded strategies can still succeed. It depends a lot on the hate you mix in.

Lock decks are going to become the new rage until it becomes evident that they are beatable by a number of cards.

Parfait will never get my repect - I hate playing it and I hate playing against it and I've never seen it actually win a tournament.  ( I have a full Parfait deck that I mean to burn at a ceremony one day. It is even pimped out - honest. No i will not sell it. i want to destroy it.)

[Kheoinn]

Golden Wish may be an option in Parfait, but I think that its too overcosted to work. Why is it so much more expensive than the rest?

Anyway, My Parfaitish deck "Garden Salad" (See the vintage forum for more info on that) has changed the engine into something less fragile. By using green, I have taken out a "combo" feel to the engine. Any seperate card will work well by itself.

Part of the reason I think Parfait isn't doing as good as other decks is also because it hasn't adapted. Splashing Red for Blood Moon was a great idea, but that is about the only change that has happened. Splashing green as well is an amazing idea, as it solves the search problem, and stabilizes the drawing.

From the reports I have been hearing about Ankh Sligh from people like Legend, it sounds like it is a formidable opponent in any metagame. Maybe it is the fact that Neutral Grounds is closer to a perfect metagame equilibrium than in other places, but other reports have also been good about Ankh Sligh. I think that, with a few metagame changes, you can reliably do well in any metagame. Of course, I don't know much about the deck (Is there a list of its matchups anywhere?), but thats what it seems like from these reports.

Goblin Sligh is similar, but also a lot different than stompy. It uses the low mana curve and has blazing speed, but its creatures can get much bigger. Its burn takes out dryads, Juggernauts, and 'togs (or makes the opponent waste cards pumping it), and Piledriver can be blazingly fast. And everyone knows as well as I that no (or almost no) metagame is perfect, and thus it has a pretty good chance in most metagames.

The sideboard can really not be brought up when talking about a silver bullet strategy. Isn't the sideboard built to be conditional cards, and thus silver bullets? COP: Red is a silver bullet, as is Moat, The Abyss, and even Tormod's Crypt (although not as much). They all "hose" certain decks.


Maybe there should be a list of decks that aren't "The Deck" (Excuse the pun) to play, but didn't get any worse as well. Things like Goblin Sligh, Ankh Sligh, Parfait, Urphidian, and some other decks could go in the list.

Thanks.

Edit: Bebe posted while I was typing this up, so here is some more comments.

I was wondering where Stax was on the list myself. It can definitely compete in almost any metagame.

Parfait pwns j00 bebe . Hey, at least I _tried_ to speed it up .

[bebe]

@ evruyone - I think my main point is that combo is a force that has not been tapped by enough of the top players. I love Carl's new deck ( we tested it for an evening it is quite strong and fun to play as a bonus) . I hope to see Acdemy, trix, twister, et all make more appearances to spice up the meta. I play Blue Mask just to have the counters for combo and the four Brainstorms.

CrazyCarl's Thread Cleaning Service\n\n

[Zherbus]

Quote The bullet theory it has been transferred to sb for a more stable MD.  In this configureation the bullets are now fetched by cunning wish(s) which act like demonic tutors. This is never a bad thing it does help in all match ups , though some decks like parfait can't do that so it does maintain the bullet theory.

Why are you rambling on about things I obviously know?

Quote Meta and play style do effect weather you go with a shotgun/with pistol backup(9mm)(keeper/other with bullet theory in the sb for a more redundant sb) or you take your chances with the lone handgun(magnum less bullets more stopping power) and go for the head shot(decks like parfait that run the bullet theory as well as redundency).  

I personally as an agressive parfait player prefer the magnum analogy it isent for everyone, but does not deserve to be smeared by though that do not play that way.

You are pretty terrible at articulating your point, I would work on that. I can barely make out what you are trying to get across, but I think I might be able to grasp what you are trying to say. Either way, it is obviously veering of topic so cut it out.

Kheoinn - You are getting too much into the discussion of Parfait which is hardly the focus of this discussion.

Quote Goblin Sligh is similar, but also a lot different than stompy. It uses the low mana curve and has blazing speed, but its creatures can get much bigger. Its burn takes out dryads, Juggernauts, and 'togs (or makes the opponent waste cards pumping it), and Piledriver can be blazingly fast. And everyone knows as well as I that no (or almost no) metagame is perfect, and thus it has a pretty good chance in most metagames.

I would do your homework a little more. Goblin Sligh is obviously dependant on creatures and its burn will rarely, if ever, take out a Tog let alone a Dryad. It wins by just beating faster than the opponent, but is easily disrupted by spot removal, mass removal, and Misdirections.

I want to see evidence that Goblin Sligh is winning in competent environments before even considering this deck as a major contender or even a format defining deck. Again, I want to stress that this discussion shouldn't be about obscure decks or weaker decks that are hardly making a dent in people sideboards.

Quote As for it not winning it might just not be played well that argument can be made against any deck. How about we all gro up abit and stop attacking decks that we can't play because we don't have the skill for them.

Quote Going in thinking you are going to lose with a deck will make you lose plain and simple, as for you fever as a mod I would expect that you would be above adding fuel to a fire that is trying to be quashed by myself and Kheoinn.

You, of all people, need to quiet down on the threads and take it to PM if you want to get all defensive about it. You aren't adding any substance to the conversation and I think we'd all appreciate it if you would stick to the topic at hand instead of turning this thread into a pile o' poo.

Quote I never did call him a scrub what I was saying is that his speciality and skill is with other decks not parfait. As for the whole insuinuating that I am not a respected member is fine but you have the responsibility not to allow flame wars and attacks to happen not to fuel them.

We owe nothing to you. This is the last time I will tell you to shut it.

[Kheoinn]

Here are my views on potentially "big" decks then.
Stax. Ducktape, Lock/Stock, Oatmeal, etc. These decks can seriously take an environment if you aren't prepared. The blazing speed and lock potential is amazing, and is definitely a "big" deck.

And maybe some kind of combo. I was thinking about non-misdirectable combos, and I thought of ProsBloom. In the past it hasn't been a big contender, but how would it fare today? TurboNevyn also has potential, although it could get wrecked by tog who could abuse its engine just as much, if not more. Even something like ReapLace could do well.

The Parfait debate is on topic. We were debating if it was environment altering, which is the point of this thread, is it not? Although I do agree it got a little out of hand, which is why I tried to stop it (see my last post).

I do admit that I do not have much experience at all with Goblin or Ankh Sligh, but I think Goblin Sligh retains one aspect of sligh. The ability to "just win." If you get an amazing hand, it really doesn't matter what deck you are playing. At least, thats what I've seen.

I think Minnesota is a rising environment. It keeps right up with the current metagame with GAT, Stax, TnT, and Keeper. The last tournament, I believe Goblin Sligh won. Thats the only evidence I have, but if I find more, I will bring it up.

Thanks.

[MoreFling]

Quote Yes GAT CAN be fast but in my experience against parfait the usually only go about 50/50 after sb it is more in parfait favor.

This is probably late, but I wanted to at least say it.
Yes, I've beating GAT twice when I finished 3rd in Eindhoven
Yes, I have fully mastered the deck, and that's not just some random bragging.
No, it's not 50/50. GAT can win from almost any situation, so you'll always be able to lose in just 1 turn. If they manage to set up a huge will, you will die.

as to the metagame, I want to put forward Rector Trix. The deck is insane on the amount of disruption it has, and Rector is just a Moat on legs in the deck. I think it has good chances against both Gat and Stax, and is a very good deck. I haven't played it myself, but from what I've seen from Pyro, it's a great deck for this new metagame.

CrazyCarl's Thread Cleaning Service\n\n

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I haven't posted in the extreme vintage boards in awhile, but here goes...

I think right now, in most metagames, the top three decks to keep in mind are: Keeper, GAT, and TnT. Now before the flaming, let me explain a bit. There ARE other potentially dangerous deck out there, it's just that they either: 1) don't make an apprearance (Mainly decks like academy, and Mask), or 2) require lots of skill and money to play (in which case, most people will go to keeper or what not instead of playing the deck; again, decks like Academy, and also Parfait, because it takes much skill). For the most part, MOST of people's sideboards (and even maindeck) are geared to beat these three decks, with the exception of some metagamed decks (stax, being the big exception). In my eyes, the only decks that can be truly competitive are those can compete toe to toe with atleast 2 of the three mentioned decks. The reason Stax is not on my list of the top decks is because it is a METAGAMED deck. Although it is blazingly effective, I do not think of it as a top deck in a "perfect"(bear with me) metagame. Ofcourse this is all theory. In real life, metagames will not always be composed of mainly TnT, Keeper, and GAT. If this is the case, a deck that can claim a high win ratio with the dominating deck can be considered a top deck. For instance, Stax. It does amazingly well vs. Tog, but is at a slight disadvantage vs. TnT and cannot claim better than a 50% win ration vs. Keeper. In metagames where GAT is rampant, stax will very well be a top deck. Anyways to sum up on this issue, I think that the top three decks at the moment are Keeper, GAT, and TnT.

As for combo decks, I do agree that too little people put much emphasis on them. They are explosive, but they die rather easy to control. Right now, I only see Rector Trix (MoreFling beat me to the punch  ) as having a chance. In today's environment with Tog's running wild, and Control decks mainting there numbers, combo decks NEED either disruption or counters. I believe Trix has that. Academy, though still viable, has more problems in today's environment (read: misdirection).

Finally, a note about the "second tier decks" (I hate using the tier system, but what else can I do?). They are still very competitive, although they lost their edge lately. The T1 scene has gotten faster and faster (thanks to GAT, Mask, and TnT), and some of these decks just can't keep up. Sligh (my FAVORITE aggro deck, contrary to belief) for example, although strong in it's own right, NEEDS to adapt. And quite frankly, I don't see sligh making a comeback for quite awhile. Even if WoTC decides to restrict gush (although I do not think this will be the case), sligh will still be in a weak position. Keeper decks learned to keep up with the speed of T1, so they will be ready to take on sligh. Mask just autowins vs. sligh. Combo does give sligh headaches (yes, even with the 8 blast plan). And finally, sligh can only do 50/50 vs. TnT at best. This pretty much holds true (in my eyes) for most of the "second tier" decks. These would include: Mono-blue (U/R phid), Sui (although it seems to be making a comeback, thanks to mykeatog), Sligh, WW, Parfait, Oath, Void, Zoo, etc. Please bear in mind that I am not saying these decks are unplayable. I am saying that if they wish to compete in a large tournament with GOOD decks, they need to adapt. In a small casual tournament, these "second tier" decks can clean house.

Anyways, I've rambled enough. Thanks for hearing my $0.02

-Bob

[Legend]

There is no question about it: its tough to win with Sligh right now. Really tough. At this moment, Sligh is only for the diehards, the true hardcore devotees of the archetype such as myself. You really have to believe in Sligh, as I do, if you are going to take it for a spin. However, with that said, if you do believe in Sligh, and if you are prepared to play it flawlessly and with confidence, you can succeed with it, just as I have. On a somewhat related note, I believe Red Stompy to be a really solid and underrated deck. Once again, though, it is only for the true hardcore wielder of the small red creatures and burn spells. Join me if you genuinely believe in Mountains, otherwise, Sligh might not be the deck for you at this moment in time.\n\n

[The Dude]

Dude here

Parfaits problem is that the players playing it, refuse to let it evolve. This is of course with exception to a meager few such as klown.

Sligh has been good since 1994, and will continue to be good until the end of Magic. Thats not to say that sometimes Sligh isn't the deck of choice. One of those times just happens to be now. Ankh Sligh is strong versus control, but needless to say, control isn't the only archtype out there. Red Stompy is damn fast and wins on that merit alone, otherwise its nothing but Stompy.

Traditional Sligh as many have already said is always there. Chill will almost never leave a blue sideboard. The sheer power of Mountain, Pup, go will be feared for a long time.

With the rise of good aggro; aggro control (TnT, Mask, GAT), along with the diversifying metagame, I began to think Keeper may be falling off, but then the Paragon version came into play, as well as Monolith/Power Artifact and Future Sight. I still hate Keeper, and it still hates me.

I have found something very important. In the aggro on aggro match up, the deck that can play the role of the control player will win. This is why Sligh always beat Stompy and this will be why Tog will beat Deck x, Tog can do anythign better than you. It can control, it can beat, and it can go off.

Decks that can do more than one thing are the best decks to play. GaT, Hulk Smash, TnT, Keeper, FEB, and others are good because they do everything well.

CrazyCarl's Thread Cleaning Service\n\n

[Fever]

I really hate to nitpick, but i feel compelled to make one comment.

Stompy, if well built, should absolutely crush Sligh. I didnt think so at one point, but once you playtest the matchup it becomes incredibly obvious.

[Sylvester]

it's all moot, though, now. Stompy is dead, dead, dead

(yes, that's me, i'm not possessed or anything, etc)

RIP

I'm interested in seeing how gay fish could adapt to the new emtagame, though. It's aggro control, and, though not as explosive (not explosive at all), it is much less vulnerable to spot-removal.

[Saucemaster]

I suppose this is anecdotal evidence, but I'll offer it anyway as a demonstration of the validity in at least one metagame of Azhrei's predictions: Azhrei's breakdown of the "top decks" (GAT, Mask, TnT, Keeper, Hulk for those of you too lazy to scroll up) matches very well with my own experience in the C&J's metagame in San Francisco, though the people who would otherwise be playing Hulk are playing GAT (that would be me, among others) and Keeper has fallen out of favor--mostly, I think, because it takes so much more effort to do well with Keeper in such a field than it does to do well with any of the others, and it's so much less forgiving a deck than GAT or Hulk, for example.  (Holy shit, was that a Proustian sentence or what?)

The trinity of decks here has been GAT, Mask, and TnT for some time now.  All of these decks are warping each other because of it--and much of that warping is hitting other decks incidentally.  Mask has splashed red solely for Blood Moon in the SB (it works wonders), and at least one of our Mask players is running Chains as well; TnT is running Tangle Wires MD, which has been helping against both GAT and, interestingly, Mask; and Submerge has earned its spot pretty much permanently in my SB, Hurkyl's Recall has jumped in to join the fun.  I'm even testing Gilded Drake to help tip the Mask matchup.

Re: the traditional aggro decks, LAS has been showing up in great numbers, and been taking a beating every time.  If you're not a player with Legend's skill and dedication, I just can't see it working out.  ALL THREE of the top decks have a tendency to just smash Sligh game 1, and even after SBing they should pretty much always be able to pull out one of the remaining two games, even with their SBs less and less focused on Sligh.

Stompy shows up and dies horribly every time.

Fish (and was there ever a location in which it would be more appropriate for Gay Fish to thrive?) has one potentially huge problem: Mask, with enough disruption to pretty consistently drop at least one Naught, will crush it.  TnT is bad, too.  As a non-GAT aggro-control deck, it seems too narrow for our metagame.  Yes, it'll do well against GAT, but there are other, equally big fish to fry as well (no pun intended).

Suicide and Void have turned out to be the strongest of the "old school" decks remaining in our metagame, mostly by virtue of their ability to every so often steal a match from Mask or GAT (TnT is still the bane of their existence).

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote Fish (and was there ever a location in which it would be more appropriate for Gay Fish to thrive?) has one potentially huge problem: Mask, with enough disruption to pretty consistently drop at least one Naught, will crush it.  TnT is bad, too.  As a non-GAT aggro-control deck, it seems too narrow for our metagame.  Yes, it'll do well against GAT, but there are other, equally big fish to fry as well (no pun intended).

As an experienced Gay Fish player, I can go on the record here as saying mask has never been the problem for me.  At yesterday's 31 man event in Virginia Gay Fish made top 8 and beat mask to get there.  Fish has plenty of tools to stop mask, null rods being one of them, Maze of ith (single handedly owning both tog and mask), bounce and annul in the board help as well.

Ironically, the Gay did lose in the top 8 to none other then GAT.  Not that I consider GAT a bad matchup for fish, it isn't.  And in game 3 of our match it was a seemingly random pernicious deed (mad insane tech from the board) that saved GAT with a 5 to 1 card trade at a critical moment from the legion of fishes.


Once TnT clears out of the metagame (GAT will handle that for us), fish will be opposed by no one and become the most dominate Gay archetype available.

However, because only those truely secure in their own masculinity would dare pick up an archetype that is so clearly and openly gay, fish will never become a true "force" in the alleged type 1 metagame.

As Fish players, this fact only works to our advantage, as we will never be enough of the metagame to get hated out.  Nor will any of our key blue card drawers ever get restricted/banned.  There will never come a time where you are either Gay or you are playing something to beat the Gays.  When we gave birth to the deck, we took all of this into account.

Make no mistake, the gay agenda is one of the best kept secrets in vintage.


And don't think we don't know what's going on with all of you gro and GAT players out there.  Free counters, cheap card draw, misdirection effects...and you base your deck around a creature the even WotC knew to label as *queer*.  I've got news for all of you, the dryad is a he, do you see any mammeries on him?  He fights with a whip ala Zoro the Gay Blade.  So go ahead, stay in the closet, who do you really think you are fooling.  You're all just misguided fish players who haven't yet come to terms with your alternative play style.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Yes Bebe, you always were just curious, weren't you...

Oh sure, you experimented.  You were always open to trying new things, and for a while, swinging with faeries all felt so right.  But I guess it was just a passing phase that you had to get out of your system, because in the end, you went back to your more mainstream deck designs, lock stock and what have you.  For fish it is one thing to just be curious and another thing to be gay.



But on a more serious note, we had a type 1 tourney yesterday of 31 people here in NoVa.  The decks that appeared in numbers were:

5 people played
GAT

3 people played
keeper
mask
nethervoid
smokestack varients
sligh

2 people played
parfait

and then lots of one of's of various other decktypes


I think this was a pretty accurate reflection of the current metagame.


Top 8 was:
keeper
U/G threshold
Smoke Stack
GAT
GAT
Hulk Smash
Mask
Gay Fish

And i think the top eight was highly indicative of what can win in the current metagame.

Notice sligh, though it had a strong showing in the environment, did not make top eight.  The same can be said for nether void, which in my opinion suffers from the same problems that sligh does, it's too fair.  They have to top deck to win.

Azhrei talked about decks needing to be able to go off, and there may be some truth to that, but what i see is that decks are becoming less reliant on their opening hands to win.  Don't misunderstand me, in type 1 your opening hand is critical, and many of those decks can win in the first 2 turns with the proper opening, but i would say that the current "decks to beat" all have incredible tools to manipulate, tutor for, or draw into whatever they need.  Be it a tainted pact in mask, or meditates in smokestack, or cantrips out the asshole in GAT.  These decks have more options sooner than simple strategies like sligh or void that are forced to play whatever they top deck.

The decks in the new metagame are strong not just they can go off quickly, but because of the consistency and increased number of options that come with draw power and library manipulation they run.  The ability to "go off" happens to be a very good option that many people have opted for in todays meta.


And if you're looking for an explanation of poor parfait performance...Parfait doesn't win IMHO largely because in actual tournaments there are time limits.  Its silver bullet strategy gets better on games two and three, when you have the deck properly boarded.  But if you lost the first game (where you may have had less than enough of the right bullets), how are you gonna win 2 AND 3 given time limits?  And until parfait gets its engine rolling, it's playing the same game as void and sligh.  Top decking is not broken in todays meta.

[Triple_S]

Based upon my experiences yesterday I do feel that TnT is going to need to evolve to something more resembling Legion in order to survive in the GAT infested metagame.  While I did have the opportunity to lengthen the game versus GAT if I had topdecked any creature to Survival with, the ability to get an early Dryad in early is tough.  The addition of Steely Resolve from the SB for GAT is very tough on most decks (particularly keeper).

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I disagree. From what I have seen, TnT doesn't have that bad of a time with GAT. Although it's by no means an auto-win, it's still pretty even. TnT, IMO has evolved quite nicely. The two types I see are R/G with MD bloodmoons, and Tangle Wire TnT. Both stand a decent chance against the GAT matchup. Simply put, TnT has more threats than GAT has counters, plus, there is only 1 real misdirectable threat in TnT (Ancestral, and thats only if the build is splashing blue). Sure, GAT can have an incredibly broken draw and win 3rd turn, but a lot of the times, a resolved bloodmoon or a couple of well-timed wastelands (in some builds atleast) can leave TnT in a pretty good position. As for Gay Fish, my friend played it once, and it seems to be rather effective, but with all the artifact decks running around, I don't know if stands that well of a chance at winning any tournaments.

[Fever]

The TNT matchup. Depending on the particular build, it can be very easy or every tough for the GAT player. I used to hate Tangle Wires, but with Togs running around everywhere, they have become almost a necessity. Versions of TNT running both Wires and Blood Moon should give GAT a tough time.

[TracerBullet]

Does anybody have something to say about the points Az made instead of these gay little fish stories?

Good point. This thread has been trimmed. -- Azhrei

[Jesse Driggers]

I agree with fever on the direction that TnT needs to take.  At the very least it needs maindeck Blood Moons.  The need for these is two-fold:  To help ve GAT/Keeper and to give the deck a chance vs most combo decks.  When I play GAT vs TnT, mainly all I worry about is my mana base, Especially now that most TnT's are cutting down on Strips.

[SpikeyMikey]

My opinion on the subject(rarely asked for and even more rarely taken seriously):

Right now, we're looking at an un-natural metagame.  The decks that are out there and win consistantly don't do so because they are the strongest decks that can be built, but do so because they have the right hate.

Now by this, I don't mean hate in terms of single cards, such as Blood Moon, or Moat, or other cards traditionally thought of as hate cards, but in that the entire deck does something that the old metagame was not prepared for.  A perfect example of this would be plugging a T1 Sligh deck into a T2 metagame.  Sligh, while striking fear into the hearts of T1 control players with a full compliment of power and the best counterspells and answers ever printed, would be lucky to win a game in a T2 tournament.  The Vintage metagame has been shaped in a single direction for years, growing more and more focused as staple decks are re-vamped and re-designed to beat one another.  Deck design has followed the same rules, beat what's already there.

Except now, what's there no longer fits into the categories that were once etched in stone.  Aggro Control decks were the bottom of the barrel, mostly because the creatures were weak.  Blue is not known for it's good weenies.  Serendib in any other color would be an "eh..." card, but in blue, you don't even have to call it by it's full name, you say dib, everyone immediately knows what you're talking about.  Now, however, easily splashable creatures that have great synergy with the aggro-control concept have become available.

TNT simply took the tubbies build that could often win by breaking the rules of T1(such as "big creatures with high cc's are useless) and handing decks something they weren't expecting, and added a Survival engine that added both consistancy and diversity at the same time.

These decks are not incredibly difficult to beat, they are just outside of the current scope of deck theory, and as such, the best way to beat them is to abandon conventional T1 theory, and look at the inherent weaknesses of the decks themselves.  Trying to modify Sligh to beat TNT doesn't work.  It won't be a redesign of a staple that finally relegates TNT and tog to the losers brackets for good, it's decks that aren't still trying to beat the old metagame.  Lock decks are not a new concept, but certainly one that hasn't been touched upon in years in the Vintage field.  Their recent success adds weight to the idea that it's going to take something new and inspired to win in a metagame that has recently been turned on it's head.  This isn't a metagame shift, it's an almost complete changing of the guard.

So there's my take on it.  I'll go back to my little lurking hole again now.

[dandan]

The metagame has changed with combo decks equipped with enough counters to outcounter dedicated counter decks, aggro decks that can outdraw 'card-advantage' decks and control decks that can 'go-off' combo style. At the moment simple aggro is dead as 'composite' aggro is faster.

However the metagame is a funny old thing. Sligh is seriously subdued. Multicolour decks are the rage. Sideboard space is even more pressed than usual (especially due to Wishes). Tell me Sligh can't compete in a metagame without Fire, COP Red and Keg, with multilands galore and fetchlands everywhere. I'm not taking apart my Sligh deck, it'll remain one of the best 'rogue' metagame decks out there.

P.S. Stompy should beat Sligh, the creatures are fatter, there are more threats and Scrolls are too slow to recover the lost ground. This is somewhat of an irrelevance at present.