The Evolution of GroAtog: Red or No?

[Smmenen]

Summary:
I discuss the recent Dülmen, potential changes for GAT, and Updated
lists and discussion to reflect the current metagame.


Some intersting stats from the most recent Dülmen:

67 players:
There were TWELVE Gro Decks in the entire tournament. All the Gro Decks that had Red were in the Top 8 and all were GATr. The next three placed:
17, 22, and 24. The 17th place deck was the only non GAT gro deck -
it was groAMask. 22 and 24 were regular 3c GAT.
Then in the middle was a GAT with WHITE and another GroMask: 33 and 28.

Finally, in the tail part of the tournament was a 3c GAT that got 58th and another GAT marked "Strange." I think we can dismiss these becuase they were probably unpowered.

What is the trend? 3c Gat did alright. Presumably though, it ran into 4c GAT and lost. But they only got 12 points in 7 rounds, so they lost to something else as well.

GAT is undergoing something of a change. I think we are seeing a trend towards some equilibrium between the lightning fast GAT decks of April 1 and Hulk as it now exists.

Drains certaintly help combat the current metagame with a plethera of Artifact Decks. Against these decks "comboing" out becomes more central and Hurkyl's Recall becomes more important. My question is
Is Red Necessary?

It would would seem that a GAT deck lacking Red is missing some important element in the mirror. But my contention is that it only weakens you for the wider metagame. It is a close question.

Here is my Revised GroAtog list without Red:
EDIT: I FORGOT TO PUT IN LOA
1 LoA
4 Sea
4 Trops
5 Fetch
3 Moxen
1 Lotus

4 FoW
4 Misd.
4 Drain

4 Brainstorm
3 Sleight (or opt?)
2 Wish
4 Gush
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
1 DT
1 Vamp
1 Mystical
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Yawg Will

4 Dryad
3 Tog

SB:
3 Duress
2 Naturalize
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Berserk (should there be two?)
1 Island
2 BEB (now better than Smother)
2 Submerge
1 Smother/Edict

Some explanations are in order.

The focus of this deck has shifted somewhat. Against Stax, you simply cannot go: Land, Mox, Dryad. That is a recipe for disaster.
I contend that the better play is simply using cantrips to Combo Off
ASAP and make certain you have FoWs. You get Fastbond and your came
will be much easier. That is the advantage this deck has over hulk:
it can simply combo off - and the 2 merchant scrolls highlight that role.

With Drains, the Wishes become far more central instead of the marginal safety net they played before.

Blue Elemental Blast nails Welders and Blood Moons - thus functioning as a super Smother.

I believe that the 4 Misdirection give this deck some serious game against Hulk and Keeper. Removing the Berserk from the main will hurt against TnT and weaken the surprise value, but I'm pretty sure that Berserk isn't a surprise anymore anyay.

I also believe that this deck has one of the best shots against Rector Trix by comboing off and going into beatdown mode - thus negating potential advantage gained by bargain.

Let's face it, the charms were terrible and needed to go. I'm not sure whether to leave the edict or a smother.

Finally, given the shift in focus to the combo part against Stax and other combo decks and the remphasis of Wishes, I have wholeheartedly bought into the Mana Drains.

I would feel very comfortable taking this deck to a touranment tommorrow.



Alternative GATr
1 LOA
4 Seas
3 Trops
4 Fetch
2 Volcs
4 Moxen
1 Lotus
19

4 FoW
3 Misd
4 Drain

4 Dryad
3 Togs

4 Gush
1 Ancestral
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Y. Win.
1 Time Walk

1 Mystical
1 DT
1 Vamp
2 Merchant Scroll

4 Brainstorm
3 Sleight

2 Wishes

SB
3 REB
2 Duress
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rack and Ruin/ Shattering Pulse
2 Naturalize
1 Berserk
2 BEB
2 Submerge

This is a rather conservative approach I must admit, and the only reason I would take this route is to avoid being at a disadvantage in the mirror against a GATr player.

There are other options of coures: shattering Pulse and Rack and Ruin which takes advatnage of a potential Blood Moon hitting.

Tranquil Domain is interesting, but ultimately too narrow. FTK is far too expensive, and Waterfront Bouncer is an expensive Submerge.
Additionally, Fire/Ice is probably the card I am most uncertain
about. Every card that I would consider replacing for it weakens the "combo" element or the control element in favor of an effect I consider inferior in light of the focus of the deck.

I feel naked with the Basic Island in the SB, but I'm not 100%
certain how much it is needed.

Anyway, those are some thoughts on GAT and where I see it heading right now. One final note though, I think we have seen a leveling off in GAT usage in the States, but this deck remains brutally powerful in the hands of a competent player and so, while a number of decks are gunning for it, never lose sight that it is out there and likely to be a vehicle for tournament success. Be Prepared

Steve Menendian\n\n

[MoreFling]

I will go into detail about the whole post, but I especially want to touch upon the 4 Dryad, 3 Tog configuration.

I'd like to know why you are still so hung up on those particular numbers. Let me list to you why 4 Tog and 3 Dryad is superior.

-Tog is pitchable, while Dryad is not. Since you only need 1 or 2 creatures in play to pull off the win, you can easily miss a creature for a needed FoW or Misdirection.
-Dryad is terrible in multiples. Once you have a dryad on the board, all you need to do is let it grow, and protect it while doing that. If you draw into another Dryad, that is a completely dead draw in your process of growing and protecting. Again the unpitchability comes in, and also, Dryad grows from casting the Tog you also could've drawn, instead, you have this 1G 1/1 creature that you don't need at all. One dryad can pull it off on its own.
-If playing against a non-red GAT player, I happily side out Dryads. As you can read in my tournament report, it's a good bet to just go for the cardadvantage and outdraw your fellow GAT-player. Do note, however, this is NOT something you want to do against GAT /w red, so be careful in applying this strategy.

Smmenen: amazingly enough, all the GATr decks that were in Eindhoven last saturday had a similar configuration to the GATr list you ran. Yet, GAT piloted by Kaervek and Stefan proceeded to T8, the only 2 GAT lists without a red element.
Now don't come to me claiming that the others are "just scrubs", since I can assure you they are not. As far as I am concerned, especially Roy and Ton, who placed pretty low are great GAT players, who have won tournaments previously with regular GAT versions.

On to Fire/Ice: I think this card is the sole reason (other than the obvious REB) that you should run the red splash. The Fire part can kill Welders and Fishies all day, and occasionally nail an opposing Dryad. The Ice part can simply be a cantripping timewalk sometime, it can be sooo great. The tempo advantage you can get by Icing eot (which is easier with 4 moxen) you can create a very welcome advantage, or just tap that 1 mana they had left open to hardcast a counterspell. Also, tapping an opposing lethal tog is never a bad thing to do, and after that you can just go nuts yourself.

Drains: This is probably the most controversial choice in any list. In the red version, I can see why it should get the benefit, you have better spells to drain into, and more spells to drain into. However, the regular version, you will more often than not waste valuable life points on Draining, when you could've just used cspell. I also still think 3 Misdirection is sufficient in the maindeck, since all serious decks will try to have as little misdirectable spells as possible, so you can easily leave on in the sideboard. I'd rather run a 4th Opt, or a Sleight, if you prefer Sleight.

About the manabase in both version: I'm still amazed to see no LoA. I watched GAT on GAT action the whole saterday while judging, and everytime a player had the LoA, he would win. That card will simply net you soo much free cardadvantage, that alone warrants its inclusion.

A final note, also related to the LoA issue, is that I think you shouldn't idolize the Dulmen metagame too much. The manabase with red is still shaky, and the presence of wasteland in the dulmen metagame is minimal. Blood Moon isn't as evil anymore as a few timely wastelands, especially in a GATr list.

I know I tend to ramble on in post like this, but I'm ready to defend my opinions, so bring it on.

[Zherbus]

1) LoA can really make or break many of the matchups I've played with Gro-A-Tog. I didn't notice it was absent from the initial post because those sort of automatic choices are often glazed over. I'd also like you to reenforce your reasons to why you've not included LoA (I'm sure you detailed it else where, but I probably won't be able to find it).

2) I really think that the red splash is iffy. While you gain alot from being able to REB (effectively spot removal for 'phids and Togs) over Duress, one could argue that you can't REB a Swords to Plowshares. Also, one thing that bothers (pleases) me, from a Keeper players standpoint, is that Wasteland just got a whole lot better. You'll really have to play around with Gush to stop Wastelands from nailing your red sources.

[PsychoCid]

Smmenen may have different reasoning supporting his choice of running 4 Dryad and 3 Tog, but here's how I see it:
-Playing GAT, assuming any normal situation, I want to see a Dryad early.  I want it to hit play on turn 1/2 and get obscenely huge within the next two turns--even nearly powerless GAT can perform this feat.
-Any extra Dryads usually get Sleighted or Brainstormed away.  However, when you draw the 2nd one early enough, sometimes it's the game winner.  Dryad may not shine best in multiples, but it's quite far from 'terrible.' (due to the many options this deck has)
-I don't want to see a Tog as early.  MOST of the time, I just want it for a late game big monster daddy to gobble them up should Dryad fall or be stuck infront of a chumper.  I -did- start out with 4 Tog (you know, less power -> more redundancy) and was just unhappy with how early and how often I was drawing them.
In all honesty, I don't have problems seeing decklists with Dryad:Tog ratios that are 4:3 or 4:4.  It's the ones that are 3:4 and 3:3 that make me think these people don't know what they are doing (no offense--one can't help what pops into mind, you know) and are adjusting the deck based solely on theory that Tog is King because of how many people bitch about it.

I have less to say about reason for not running Library.  It should be godly at times, but what would you cut?  Playing a list nearly identical to Smmenen's from a short while ago, I had already dropped the 5th fetch for the Island because my mana base wasn't feeling stable enough.  I don't think that slot is optimal for LoA.  This leaves us with basically the 2nd Scroll slot, the 2nd Wish slot, and a counter slot.  Without Drains, it's easy for me to say cut the Wish (I run Cspells and my 2nd wish slot is one of the things I'd not be weary of cutting should I need room)--but with the type of build in question, I'm not sure what to say.  Being that MisD isn't so hot versus Workshop decks, and that you'd still have quite a high number of them, perhaps that should be considered to be the most variable slot.  That, of course, is just theory running, and not backed by testing.\n\n

[Saucemaster]

Quote Is Red Necessary?

It would would seem that a GAT deck lacking Red is missing some important element in the mirror. But my contention is that it only weakens you for the wider metagame.

After alot of thought and even (gasp!) some testing, I came to the same conclusion.  While the Red splash could be the right call for particular metagames, in a vague sort of "general" metagame, it doesn't seem to me to add enough to make up for the lessened consistency.  It's most useful against control, but in my experience counterwars haven't been the problem.  You'll usually win them.  It's stopping the topdecked or slowplayed StP that neutralizes your threat *after* the counterwar and sets you both back at an even board after you've used mostly pitch counters and they've used a few hard counters (read: card disadvantage).  Note that even this hasn't been happening to me too often; it's just more likely now that Keeper players (in particular) have begun to adjust.  In short, REB is nice in these matchups, but unless you're seeing a LOT of them, it's probably not worth the splash.

Against the decks that can actually give you huge issues (so, Ducktape/Stax for example), the Red splash doesn't seem to help much.  Fire is great for Welders, that I grant, but leaving your manabase in particular even more open to disruption against these decks just seems suicidal.  I agree with Smmenen here that your best option is probably to try to slow them while you go into combo mode as soon as humanly possible.  That requires, above all else, consistency.

On other issues,

Quote While you gain alot from being able to REB (effectively spot removal for 'phids and Togs) over Duress, one could argue that you can't REB a Swords to Plowshares.

Zherbus read my mind!  And hinted at something else:

After playing the deck for a long time I came to the conclusion that most of my losses were due to either 1) Turn 1/2 brokenness (combo or aggro-combo) or 2) Heavy turn 1/2/3 disruption.  I was running a number of Counterspells and the key problems came when the early spells were non-Misdirectable and I didn't have enough mana to Counter.  There are decks that laugh at your one FoW hand with many of their draws (Tainted Mask comes to mind), and even once you get to turns two or three, your deck REALLY wants to be tapping out each turn and I kept feeling that I was hamstringing the deck by sitting there leaving two Islands untapped to keep my Counterspell options open.  What I kept finding, again and again, was that I really wanted Duress.  I could spare the one mana, but not two, and it'd even let me know whether or not it was safe to tap out and go aggro, or whether I should hold back and play control.  So I cut a Counterspell, a Mis-D, and a Merchant Scroll (I was running three at the time!) for 3 maindeck Duress, and I haven't been disappointed with it yet.  I'm trying to find room for the fourth.

This, at least in my metagame, seems to be the logical progression of GaT.  Duress hits combo and aggro-combo where it hurts, early and often, and gives you a definite edge in the mirror and against other control decks in game 1 without compromising your manabase.  It shines against Ducktape/MUD/etc, so it reinforces your problem matchups, and it's almost never dead except against decks that you should probably destroy anyway.  Really, the only deck I've played against yet where I really felt it hampered me was Stompy.  And, well, needless to say I won those games anyway.  So basically, Duress has single-handedly solved alot of the problems I'd been having.  It even "feels" right--it's a perfect aggro-control card.  I'm not saying that maindeck Duress is the solution for everyone, but I urge people to give it a try.  It also frees up some room in your SB, which is nice.

Quote 1) LoA can really make or break many of the matchups I've played with Gro-A-Tog.

I'm in agreement here.  It's typically (but not always) dead only when you're beating the crap out of your opponent anyway (i.e., "Well, I could draw one card with LoA or use the mana to scroll for Gush and then replay the land and then...").  And it's a kick in the nuts in control matchups, since they know and you know that barring some lucky draws, you're going to rebuild to seven cards before they will.  

Actually, the sacrosanct card that I've been considering cutting recently has been Regrowth.  I've just found it too often dead, usually because it would be too dangerous to tap the two mana to get a spell that I'd then have to wait to cast until next turn.  The obvious comparison is to Merchant Scroll, but that's better in large part because in those situations you can go and grab FoW.  Unless you've already cast one, you can't do that with Regrowth, which makes it significantly more inconsistent.  Anyway, I haven't cut it yet, but I've been thinking about it.

Quote 4 Dryad
3 Tog

This is still what I run, and it's still what I'm most happy with.  I tried 3/4 Dryad/Tog and didn't like it.  The thing is, while Tog can get tremendously huge, he usually only does so once or twice.  Dryads are like casual sex.  Togs are like relationship sex.  Tog needs babying.  He wants you to feed him cards, to hold back a little to keep your hand size up, to constantly count your graveyard and your hand, etc.  Dryad, on the other hand, requires absolutely no commitment from you.  You just put her into play, do your thing as normal, and get benefits on the side.  Sure, in the end, you probably prefer the Tog.  But who doesn't want a little more Dryad?  So, like Cid said, you want Dryad early and often.

Additionally, there are times when multiple Dryads is amazing.  It doesn't come up frequently, but there are games against Mask and (to a lesser extent) TnT where multiple Dryads are your only real solution in Game One.  That's enough of a consideration in my metagame that it makes me nervous dropping to three Dryads.

Not to mention the slight but real advantage that Dryad has over Tog in the control matchup (especially recently): Dryad is not REBable.

Quote With Drains, the Wishes become far more central instead of the marginal safety net they played before.

You may recall that Fishhead and I both tested Drains in the Counterspell slots right after GaT went public.  He liked the Drains, and I eventually decided that I didn't.  I was running two Wishes at the time (so, same as you) and I still just couldn't find a sink quite often enough.  However, I did set up some great plays with Drain mana, too, so my response was a qualified "no Drains for me", whereas I believe Fishhead's was more like a qualified, "yeah, sure, I'll take Drains".  FOUR Drains seems like trouble, though.  And it makes your deck play a whole lot more controllish.  I get the feeling that Smmenen's playstyle and mine are very different with GaT (which isn't a criticism at all--I have no doubt that Smmenen is a better player than I am ), so maybe I'm not the best person to critique the 4x Drain configuration?

[Fever]

@Smmenen

First, about the mana base. I realize you arent running LoA, but with only 7 cantrips do you find 17 mana to be enough? I always run 18 + 8 cantrips and i dont think i would feel comfortable with anything less.

Second, about the Dryad/Tog ratio. I have been on both sides of the argument at one time or another, but i have to say i agree with you. Although i dont mind drawing extra Togs because of the pitchability, i dont really want to be casting more than one Tog, certainly not in the early game. Ideally we could find room for 4 copies of each monster, but with a deck this tight it is pretty much impossible.

About the Red splash: i have never liked it. Even if it becomes the standard version i would never play it, there just arent enough advantages to warrant screwing with an already imperfect mana base. I am glad you have come to the same conclusion.


@Saucemaster

Duress is certainly an appealing option, but im not convinced its better than a counter. My real fear is that running Duress will leave me with only 4 real counters, which seems like asking for trouble. Although Duress is probably superior in several instances, it cant do much about a top-decked bomb. In any case, i think it is definetly worth testing.

[Smmenen]

Um. There were only 59 cards in my decklists.  I am definately Running LOA.  It was a mistake and I forgot to add it.  You'll notice in the 2nd list I said 19 mana sources, but there were only 18 listed.  I forget to write it down becuase it is so obvious.

Quote (MoreFling @ May 26 2003,04:12)I will go into detail about the whole post, but I especially want to touch upon the 4 Dryad, 3 Tog configuration.

I'd like to know why you are still so hung up on those particular numbers. Let me list to you why 4 Tog and 3 Dryad is superior.

-Tog is pitchable,

Yes, that is a reason to run 4 togs, not to cut a Dryad.

Quote
-Dryad is terrible in multiples.

I disagree - they have synergy in multiples becuase each spell makes +2+2.  Also, it is somewhat uncommone to have more than one unless you are getting around Maze or seomthing.

Quote
-If playing against a non-red GAT player, I happily side out Dryads.

See I'm not sure about this point.  It depends on what your trying to do.  I think the better strategy is NOT to take control but to be the Aggro-Control deck.  It makes Perfect theoretical sense to me.  You apply pressure so fast they can't react fast enough - the result is that they will try to waste resources dealing with you, but it won't be enough.  Moreover, a Tog attacking into a Tog sucks - while dryads actually trade for cards v. an opposing Tog.  So I in the I guess I disagree with you.

Quote
enough, all the GATr decks that were in Eindhoven last saturday had a similar configuration to the GATr list you ran.

Interesting.  I'd like to see their SBs and hear what they felt was good in their SBs and what wasn't - that is, I'd like to see their post-tournament SBs.

Quote
On to Fire/Ice: I think this card is the sole reason (other than the obvious REB) that you should run the red splash.

You have just made the best possible argument for Fire/Ice and you know what?  It falls short by aLOT.  Frankly, GAT is a monsterous fucking aggro-control deck.  It doesn't pussy foot with bullshit tapping - it ramrods its dildo into your face.  Ice is a very shitty cantrip and Fire is only good in a feild of TnT, Stax, and Sligh.  TEMPO?  You want to talk about Tempo?  How about I berserk my Tog.  That's tempo, not fucking Icing a land eot.  That's bullshit.

Quote
Drains: This is probably the most controversial choice in any list.

I think the idea with Drains is clear enough in my lists.  A point that you utterly missed.  The Drains ARE NOT about the red splash or having better spells to drain into becuase of the red splash.  It is about re-emphasizing the Wishes in order to abuse them and get a better matchup v. Stax.  It is about the Wishes and about being able to combo off faster off a Drain.   That's what it is about, not the Red.  

I will not go beneath 4 Misdirections in an Aggro-Control deck.  I WILL NOT.  That is called silly.

Quote
About the manabase in both version: I'm still amazed to see no LoA. I

As should be clear to you now, that was an error on my part, I LOVE LoA.

Quote (Zherbus @ May 26 2003,04:28)2) I really think that the red splash is iffy. While you gain alot

 from a Keeper players standpoint, is that Wasteland just got a whole lot better. You'll really have to play around with Gush to stop Wastelands from nailing your red sources.

Your trying to tell me, that as a Keeper player you will wait around until I play a Volc until you wasteland my land.  Becuase that is likely the only way you will get to.  That would be GREAT!

From the Keeper players perpsective, I would think you'd want to Wasteland ANY land the GAT player plays when you can without knowing that I have or expectnig a Gush.  

STeve\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (PsychoCid @ May 26 2003,12:23)Smmenen may have different reasoning supporting his choice of running 4 Dryad and 3 Tog, but here's how I see it:
-Playing GAT, assuming any normal situation, I want to see a Dryad early.  I want it to hit play on turn 1/2 and get obscenely huge within the next two turns--even nearly powerless GAT can perform this feat.

Precisely!!  This is the point that Rudy is missing.  It isn't about how good Dryads are later - it's about getting one IMMEDIATELY and beating the hell down.  This is an aggro-control deck that can combo out.  Play like it is so.

Quote
In all honesty, I don't have problems seeing decklists with Dryad:Tog ratios that are 4:3 or 4:4.  It's the ones that are 3:4 and 3:3 that make me think these people don't know what they are doing (no offense--one can't help what pops into mind, you know) and are adjusting the deck based solely on theory that Tog is King because of how many people bitch about it.

I agree with the tenor of this statement.

Quote (Saucemaster @ May 26 2003,13:22)

After alot of thought and even (gasp!) some testing, I came to the same conclusion.  While the Red splash could be the right call for particular metagames, in a vague sort of "general" metagame, it doesn't seem to me to add enough to make up for the lessened consistency.

I think you have conflated two different ideas here.  My addition of red doesn't change my decks consistency - it DOES however, dilute the SB in a way that may be unncessary.  If anything, more land makes GAT more consistent in one sense, and only slightly less consistent in the sense that you have a greater chance of getting color screwed.   One solution to that is simply to only run one volc.  The only problem with that is if your opponents know that too - they can exploit it.  For example:4 sea, 3 trop, 1 volc, 5 fetch, 1 loa, 4 moxen, and 1 lotus.  That's still 2 permanent sources of red and 8 potential sources of red (including lotus and fetchlands).  

Quote
 It's most useful against control,

I think you are missing part of the point here though - it isn't just for Control it's to give you the *edge* in the  mirror and against Hulk.  Seriously, if you are in the final round of a tournament in the mirror, wouldn't you feel better knowing you were the GATr and not the GAT deck?  I would.  But that doesn't mean the red is a good idea.  

Quote
Against the decks that can actually give you huge issues (so, Ducktape/Stax for example), the Red splash doesn't seem to help much.  Fire is great for Welders, that I grant, but leaving your manabase in particular even more open to disruption against these decks just seems suicidal.  I agree with Smmenen here that your best option is probably to try to slow them while you go into combo mode as soon as humanly possible.  That requires, above all else, consistency.

I think it CAN help against these decks. In fact, adding Red can give you Shattering Pulse and/or Rack and Ruin ontop of Two Recalls.  That could be VERY Strong.  Imagine that  blood moon resolves, I could see Shattering pulse as being game breaking.  Of course I would probably have rather just had the Naturalize or BEB to stop the Moon.

Quote   What I kept finding, again and again, was that I really wanted Duress.  I could spare the one mana, but not two, and it'd even let me know whether or not it was safe to tap out and go aggro, or whether I should hold back and play control.  So I cut a Counterspell, a Mis-D, and a Merchant Scroll (I was running three at the time!) for 3 maindeck Duress, and I haven't been disappointed with it yet.  I'm trying to find room for the fourth. [/quote[

Wow.  Duress is really good, but I won't cut a Misd, or search for it.  Hrm.  I will have to think about this some more.  

This, at least in my metagame, seems to be the logical progression of GaT.  Duress hits combo and aggro-combo where it hurts, early and often, and gives you a definite edge in the mirror and against other control decks in game 1 without compromising your manabase.  It shines against Ducktape/MUD/etc, so it reinforces your problem matchups, and it's almost never dead except against decks that you should probably destroy anyway.  

I agree with those points and others you made that followed except one part:
It doesn't really help *that* much at what I see to be one of the two hardest matchups: Rector Trix.  Any suggestions on how to deal with this deck?

Quote
You may recall that Fishhead and I both tested Drains in the Counterspell slots right after GaT went public.  He liked the Drains, and I eventually decided that I didn't.  I was running two Wishes at the time (so, same as you) and I still just couldn't find a sink quite often enough.  However, I did set up some great plays with Drain mana, too, so my response was a qualified "no Drains for me", whereas I believe Fishhead's was more like a qualified, "yeah, sure, I'll take Drains".  FOUR Drains seems like trouble, though.  And it makes your deck play a whole lot more controllish.  

You'll recall that my earlier builds and discussion (including the SCG article) disdained the use of Drains.  I am only reversing on that Issue now becuase of Stax and other metagame changes.  

I agree it makes the deck more controlling rather than Aggro Controlish which is a problem.  But, in my mind, the Wishes themselves are only part of the reason to Run Drains - the other is to combo out ASAP.

Steve Menendian\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (Fever @ May 26 2003,15:52)About the Red splash: i have never liked it. Even if it becomes the standard version i would never play it, there just arent enough advantages to warrant screwing with an already imperfect mana base. I am glad you have come to the same conclusion.

Well, that's the thing.  I'm not quite there yet.  I really need to see how badly lacking red affects the mirror.  The fact that a red splash is so well known and has done so well at the Dülmen puts other GAT players in a bind - don't add red and risk having a serious disadvantage in the mirror.  That's why this thread is here - to get to the root of this issue.

Steve

[Zherbus]

1. USE THE EDIT FEATURE. 6 posts in a row?!? Jesus.

2. No, not always but post board if I can cut off a color that easily, I will. Fetch another, go ahead. It's not like you're fetching Undergrounds or Tropicals with that fetch.

Sure, first turn if you leave yourself open (by error or just lack of fetchland) I'll jump all over it. But contrary to common belief, the Keeper/GAT matchup does go on long enough that I can get another one of my 4 Strips.

Before the red splash, depriving GAT of black or green was not only difficult, but hardly worth the effort. With a red splash and only 2 real red lands and a mox, it's yet another strategy that can, and will at times, pay off for Wasteland packing decks.

It's a simple formula of exchanging a strength in a deck for a weakness. The real decision lies in making sure the weakness you're trading for is minimal in the metagame. Its obviously a stronger version against Smokestack decks, but is it really any better against Ophidian based decks and Keeper?

[Smmenen]

The reason I didn't edit the msgs together is becuase it would have been so long that you wouldn't have even noticed the small paragraph where I responded to your comment.  By keeping each particular person i was responding to separate, it is more organized.  EDIT: I merged 5 of them and it looks really hard to follow.  I wish the quoting feature worked somehow more effectively at organization.

You are adding a weakness by adding red, but I don't see how it could *possibly* be weaker against URphid or Keeper with the exception that you get completely color fucked.  That exception is dictated by how you play the deck.  Sure if I side in 4 blasts and spend my first two land drops on Volcs, I'm screaming to get color fucked, but I would never do that (see below).  Even if you lose both Volcs and the Mox Ruby, you have Regrowth and Will to get Red back with.  

The central issue in my mind is mirror matches.  Is Red really necessary to win the mirror?   If you are playing GAT and your opponent is playing GATr, can you realistically win?

If not, then does adding red really make you that much more vulnerable?  I find that very hard to beleive.  Keeper and URphid are going to waste the shit out of the first lands you play - and I fail to understand why you assume it is not going to be a Trop or a Sea.  With the configuration as it is, I woudn't try to find one of the Vols until I have already played Seas and Trops.

Steve\n\n

[Saucemaster]

Quote  My addition of red doesn't change my decks consistency - it DOES however, dilute the SB in a way that may be unncessary.  If anything, more land makes GAT more consistent in one sense, and only slightly less consistent in the sense that you have a greater chance of getting color screwed.

Sorry, I needed to be more clear here.  Consistency isn't quite the word I wanted there.  I was referring to the greater chance that you'll get cut off a crucial color--which color depends on the matchup.  Basically, my feeling with GaT is that the manabase is pushed absolutely to the limit even in the three-color version.  The deck can barely survive a Strip effect if you're unable to Gush in response, and I've lost plenty of games due to my opponent having Strip + Waste or two Wastes in hand.  Add in the fact that now you have spells that would really like you to be running a fourth color in order to be truly useful and for your deck to be running at peak efficency, and I start to get nervous.  Maybe this is me; maybe I am too scared of a vulnerable mana base.  Anyway, as I said, I can still see the Red splash being great for some metagames.

Quote One solution to that is simply to only run one volc.

Interesting, but then every time you fetch a Tropical or Underground Sea, you're effectively deciding to shut yourself out of Red until you find another Fetch.  This is the second half of what I meant when I said that the splash weakens the deck's consistency.  I already feel I have to choose which color to bank on more than I'd like to without adding a fourth color into the mix.

Plus, you lose the ability to fetch an Island to Waste-proof yourself.

Quote I think you are missing part of the point here though - it isn't just for Control it's to give you the *edge* in the  mirror and against Hulk.

Well... the point is that the Red splash helps you against control in general, and what you're hitting (in the mirror and against Hulk) is the CONTROL aspect of the opposing deck, with the side bonus that you get spot removal for Togs.  Most of the time you're still going to be REBing FoWs, MisD's, Drains, etc.  I know it's not just for control, but I still stand by my point, modified to make it clearer:  The Red splash works best against the controllish aspects of the opposing deck.  Are you seeing alot of decks that are trying to out-control you?  Then the Red splash is worth some serious consideration.

The mirror is a special case b/c of the "StP for Togs" effect.  It pretty much all comes down to how much difference you think that extra flexibility in the mirror will make, compared to your added weakness in other matchups.  My basic take on this is that we cannot answer this question in a vacuum.  This has got to be a metagame decision.  Within a particular metagame at a particular time, there is probably a correct answer to "should I run GaTr or standard GaT?"  If you think you will HAVE to have an edge in the mirror to make Top 8 in a tournament you're attending, then the Red splash is probably good.  If you think you'll face UrPhid every other matchup with a few Ducktape decks thrown in, then maybe you should go GaT w/ red.  If you're going to be facing Mask, Tangle TnT, some Void, maybe the mirror once, and maybe a Keeper (so, my metagame)?  You're probably hurting yourself more with a red splash than you're helping.

Quote Imagine that  blood moon resolves, I could see Shattering pulse as being game breaking.

I'm not getting the point here.  If Blood Moon resolves, I can kill their artifacts?  If I can't find a Red source with which to cast Shattering Pulse, I certainly don't want to rely on an opposing deck resolving what is probably its single best hoser to help me out with that.  If you're having that much trouble finding Red mana, then the manabase needs some serious work.  

On a more serious note, have you found yourself using the Buyback often?  Drains, of course, help here.

Quote Wow.  Duress is really good, but I won't cut a Misd, or search for it.  Hrm.  I will have to think about this some more.

Well, I'm still running three Mis-D and two Merchant Scrolls.  Honestly, I have been annoyed at the 4x Mis-D recently.  The reason I tested the maindeck Duress build in the first place was because at least two or three times a tournament I would look at the MisD in my hand and think, "God, I can't wait until I get to side those out for Duress".  So I figured, well, why not try moving at least one for now and seeing how it works out?

Anyway, like I said, this has worked for my metagame, and I encourage people to try it, but I'm certainly not claiming that maindeck Duress is the "correct" build of Ubg GaT now.

@Fever: (oops--sorry, Fever!)

Quote Duress is certainly an appealing option, but im not convinced its better than a counter. My real fear is that running Duress will leave me with only 4 real counters, which seems like asking for trouble. Although Duress is probably superior in several instances, it cant do much about a top-decked bomb. In any case, i think it is definetly worth testing.

My reasons for Duress over a hard counter are basically as I stated above, but might bear re-formulating.  My biggest problems against opposing decks (pre-MD Duress) were the first two turns, before I got to Counterspell mana.  Duress did everything I wanted Counterspell to do during the first few turns.  Later in the game, Duress begins to lose usefulness, but typically speaking I'm not worrying about the end game with this deck; by then, you can usually manipulate your deck to such a degree that having hard counters isn't a tremendous problem.  Or you just swing with a 11/11 Dryad .  

The sticking point for me was the mid-game.  I decided I'd actually test the MD Duresses in tournament play after a game against Mask (bear in mind that this was Game 2 and the Mask decks here are splashing Red for Blood Moon in Game 2/3): I weather his early disruption and counter a Chains, and have Smother ready for his Naught when it gets through.  However, despite my seeming control of the game and him only having two cards in hand, he seems unconcerned.  I begin to suspect he's slowplaying a Blood Moon.  The only hard counter I have left is Counterspell (I was running either three or four at the time, I don't remember) and I have three mana on the board.  I also have a Tog in hand.  I cannot cast the Tog while I think he might have Moon, though--it'll completely wreck me at this point.  So I keep Counterspell mana open, and figure that I'll get a few more land and a Gush at some point, then drop Tog leaving two land open for the counter.  Turns out that's not happening.  I draw a number of spells (Wish, Dryad, etc) that I'd really like to cast--but I'm still afraid of Blood Moon.

Of course, he TDs two Dreadnaughts (!) and I can't deal.  I ask him what he was slowplaying: Chains of Mephistopheles, which he ended up not using.  I could have lived through Chains; I'd have tapped out for Tog had I known that.  I kept wanting Counterspell to be Duress in that situation--I wanted to Duress + Dryad and be done with it, or at least to draw a Duress in addition to my Counterspell so I'd know whether to go for Tog.

Anecdotal, and it doesn't prove anything, but that's the kind of midgame situation where I really started to think Duress might shine.  Limited mana available, a two-or three casting cost threat in hand, with a two-CC answer as well.  I'm the aggro-control deck; why should I have to choose whether to hold back or not?  I want to do both.

Back @ Smmenen/all:

Quote It doesn't really help *that* much at what I see to be one of the two hardest matchups: Rector Trix.  Any suggestions on how to deal with this deck?

Interesting question.  I honestly have limited experience with the match--mostly from the Rector Trix side of the table, in fact.  And honestly, when I played Rector Trix I hated an opponent's turn one/two Duress.  It can cripple an otherwise spectacular hand.  Of course, there are times when you can shrug it off, too.  I like Duress (from the GaT perspective) more than I like Mis-D in this matchup.  I frankly don't like Rector Trix much after having played it in a few tournaments and doing some minor testing with it--and I really, really wanted to like that deck.  No one else in my metagame was interested in the deck, so I thankfully don't have to take it much into account.  Anyone else on GaT vs. Rector Trix here, who can offer some real insight?

Quote You'll recall that my earlier builds and discussion (including the SCG article) disdained the use of Drains.  I am only reversing on that Issue now becuase of Stax and other metagame changes.  

I agree it makes the deck more controlling rather than Aggro Controlish which is a problem.  But, in my mind, the Wishes themselves are only part of the reason to Run Drains - the other is to combo out ASAP.

I realize that you've already written half a novel here (and I've enjoyed it), but if you have time, can you expand on how frequently and in what way the Drains tend to help you combo out faster, from your testing?  I always find that colored (not colorless) mana requirements are the limiting factor when I'm trying to combo ASAP.

[Zherbus]

Quote If not, then does adding red really make you that much more vulnerable?  I find that very hard to beleive.  Keeper and URphid are going to waste the shit out of the first lands you play - and I fail to understand why you assume it is not going to be a Trop or a Sea.  With the configuration as it is, I woudn't try to find one of the Vols until I have already played Seas and Trops.

It makes you vulnerable to another strategy; off-color screwage. I said that before adding red, it was much of a viable strategy between the sheer number of off color sources, fetchlands, and Gush. Take away a respectable number of a color source and it becomes a possible thorn in your side. That's ALL I'm saying.

Nowhere in my post did I say that it was going to be a non-trop/non-underground sea land. What I said was in response (an agreement of sorts, in fact) to the quote below:

Quote Your trying to tell me, that as a Keeper player you will wait around until I play a Volc until you wasteland my land.  Becuase that is likely the only way you will get to.  That would be GREAT!

Then I said:

Quote Sure, first turn if you leave yourself open (by error or just lack of fetchland) I'll jump all over it.

Is there some sort of shit smeared on our lines of communication? Are you not getting something? Am *I* not getting something?

[Fever]

@Saucemaster

My nick has been just "Fever" for a while now. No big deal, just pointing it out.


@Zherbus

Do i sense some tension between you and Smmenen? You are both paragons, you should be all lovey-dovey with eachother!

No tension, in fact we are both quite tight which is why we can talk that way to each other. ;P

-Zherbus

[dicemanX]

Some ideas that I have been considering and/or testing:

1. I am not completely convinced that the red splash does more good than harm, because of the mana issues. However, one possibility might be to sacrifice a SB slot for a Volcanic, while playing one Volcanic MD, or leave the Volcanic out altogether. If the primary idea behind the red splash is to improve your mirror, then one Volcanic might very well be sufficient in any case because you don't have to worry about getting lands wasted. Against control I'm finding that Duress is as good as REBs, and helps evaluate your chances of fetching and resolving an Ancestral successfully. So, I'd rather have 4 Duress in the SB rather than a mix of Duress/REBs, and for other reasons too - Duresses are useful vs stuff like Rector-Trix or Stax/MUD.

2. My Regrowth is long gone. This card just doesn't do enough most of the time when it matters. I've been experimenting with two cards in its place: Fact or Fiction and the non-blue, non-Misdirectable Skeletal Scrying. I've already started to run my GAT with Mana Drains and 2xWish, so these seem like logical choices. I tend to play GAT aggressively, so I frequently get into wars of attrition with control decks. The Scrying (or a SBed, Wishable FoF) helps to replenish the hand.

3. I don't think that Hurkyl's Recall is very spectacular against Stax/MUD, especially if we go on the assumption that your opponent isn't dumb enough to play right into it with Wheel/Twister/Jar/Skullcap. Most of the time, it will buy you a turn, nothing more. Instead, I've started running 4 Naturalizes in the SB, which are becoming more and more useful against a wide range of top-tiered decks like TnT, Mask, Stax/MUD etc. So far I've been very happy to have all 4 in the SB. Plus, so many Naturalizes are sometimes necessary to fight against TnT's Blood Moons, because the Island + BEB plan is utter crap.

[Fever]

@Zherbus

Dude, i think it was rather obvious i was joking.  


@Saucemaster

I have been testing 3 maindeck Duress as you suggested, and i have to say the results are very promising so far. Further evalution is definetly in order.


@DicemanX

Duress and REB both have their strengths and weaknesses, but i think we can agree that Duress has one big pro: you dont have to splash a 4th color for it.

Also, your point about Regrowth is valid, it isnt a must by any means; i am currently testing several cards in its place including a 4th Tog and Vampiric(sb atm). However, if you have a free slot, there are certainly worse cards, and i think it is worth it if you have room.

[dicemanX]

@Fever

I'm quite surprised that you're SBing Vampiric. This card factors in so heavily in many games that I have played. It is particularly good in the mirror, because its pretty much all about the Library, while allowing you to go the combo route by fetching Fastbond against other decks when you need to go off quickly. Yes, its still a Wish target, but that slows you down a bit...is this a temporary experiment, or have you not missed it that much MD?

[Fever]

I always had Vamp main before, for exactly the reasons you stated, however im not so sure about it anymore. There are clearly instances where its great, and i really cant say that i have decided yet. I have to say that i dont really "miss" it, probably because of all the draw and tutoring the deck has already.

Like i said though, this is only a test run, so dont flame me just yet  

[dicemanX]

Just a moderate flame for now  .

BTW, with up to 4 Drains main how about this crazy idea: a pair of Forgotten Ancients for the mirror? Smother and REB proof.

Who knows.

[Siral]

After a long time of testing and a lot of sanctioned tournament (about 10 with 8 top 8 and 6 finals) i can surely says that Red cannot be played in classica GAT deck because you can't support the mana base for the fourth color....

This is my actual list for That Little Tog (new name for the deck 'cause i cut off the dryads)

Mana Base
1 LoA
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Total : 18

4 Psychatog
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Gush
4 Opt (a lot better than SoH 'cause it allow you to fetch lands at EOT of the opponent without be afraid to lose a land for an opponent wasteland)
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Dures
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
1 Daze
1 Mind Twist
2 Cunning Wish
1 Merchant Scroll

Sideboard
1 Berserk (never need more than one)
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict (Some Morphling still played)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Moment's Peace (a kind of time walk vs aggro deck)
1 Naturalize
1 Crumble (to destroy an artifact vs Lock&Stock)
1 Mana Short (metagame choice 'cause too many maze of ith)
1 Ebony Charm
1 Fact or Fiction (better than scrying 'cause lose life is never good in my metagame)
1 Energy Flux (artifact based deck hate)
1 Submerge (very very strong)
1 Waterfrount Bouncer (vs gro)
1 Gilded Drake (combo with bouncer)
1 Last Minute Card (usually Ivory Tower or Zuran Orb)

I've tested a lot this deck and i think that Dryads are not the best choice in the actual metagame

TnT and Lock&Stock are completely screwed by Pernicious Deed and it's very important vs Gro, Madness and Sligh...
It's a solution for every unexpected situtation.

Duress and Mind Twist let you play yawgmoth's will without the fear to have the will countered....and then let you win easily.

[Fever]

Quote (Siral @ May 27 2003,17:48)TnT and Lock&Stock are completely screwed by Pernicious Deed and it's very important vs Gro, Madness and Sligh...
It's a solution for every unexpected situtation.

Gro, Madness, and Sligh? What format are you playing?

Seriously speaking, your deck is much closer to Hulk than GAT, so maybe this isnt the right thread for it.

[Siral]

It's so different from Hulk, since i dont use intuition-ak draw engine.

Quote
Gro, Madness, and Sligh? What format are you playing?

I'm playing t1, dont worry, im not a casual player that start to play t1 yesterday and here in Italy Madness is one of the most played deck

You can check some version of this deck in the Tornei-Winners Section of www.theabyss.biz to see what i'm speaking about.

When I speak of gro, i speak of Supergrow, Miracle Grow or GroAtog, all the decks that work on the Gush Engine.

[Kaervek]

Just a small note:

In Eindhoven, out of 22 players, there were 5 GAT builds. 2 of those were 3c, and 3 had the red splash. Both the 3c versions made top 8 (with my build taking the #1 spot , whereas ALL the red splash builds did not.

I was paired against all 3 GATr decks. One of the players commented on the fact that he rarely had both a Volcanic Island in play AND a REB on hand. In all matchups, perhaps 2 of my Togs got killed by one. It was anticipated (and futile on both occasions.

While I can imagine considering the red splash (I'm not saying it sucks), I would never cut a Duress for a REB in the sideboard. I sided in 4 Duresses every single matchup and it's fair to say they gave me the upper hand every time. It really is unimaginably cool. I did not side in Smother, as it is Misdirectable (much like REB), and you really don't need the removal IMO. If you're forced to start Smothering Togs to prevent yourself from dying, you're losing the game anyway. I prefer the proactive control element by a long shot.

[Smmenen]

Ok, well I'm still struggling on the SB.  And I have to respond to Saucemaster anyway - but here are some thoughts:

GAT with Red SB:

2 Rebs - this alleviates some of the problems of needing Volcs.  This way I would only run 1 volc and 1 mox.  I think the chances of me getting the land are better with 1 volc and 19 mana coures becuase i have more fetchlands.  

2 Submerge - these will never leave my sb.  They are too good - better than Smother in the mirror.

2 Hurkyl's Recalls - no comment needed.
1 Rack and Ruin/ Shattering pulse - not sure which one, but am leaning towards rack and ruin from a few games of testing.

2 Naturalize- no doubt these are key - but with tutors I'm confident of drawing at least one when I need it.

3 Duress - again - amazing versus control.

1 Berserk - none main - absolutely important

Now things get dicey:

I want a way to deal with Welders without Fire/Ice, which I think is subpar.  Blue Elemental Blast does just that AND kills blood moons like Naturalize.  

So:
1 Blue Elemental Blast.  With one my chances are not high to get it, but I still have a good shot.  Game one against STax i can wish for it.  And when you think about how that matchup goes, only one welder is likely to resolve if things are going your way.  So I can justify this.

1 Smother - you just really need something versus random decks like Void, Suey, and Mask.  This is the ticket.  With tutors Im sure it will come up.  So Kaervek, as a matter of principle I never side these in against Tog becuse they are not fast enough - they are too controllish when I want is aggro control.  

WITHOUT RED:

Ok much easier:

3 Duress - amazing versus Control and Combo
3 Hurkyl's Recall - no debate needed.  Just add three.
3 Naturalize - anti-blood moon, oath, kegs, control magic, etc.
1 Berserk - the necessity
1-2 Blue Elemental Blasts - anti-blood moon, anti-welders
1-2 Smother - see above
2 Submerge

Even without Red, the SB is real tight.
Steve\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (Saucemaster @ May 26 2003,22:51) This has got to be a metagame decision.  Within a particular metagame at a particular time, there is probably a correct answer to "should I run GaTr or standard GaT?"  If you think you will HAVE to have an edge in the mirror to make Top 8 in a tournament you're attending, then the Red splash is probably good.  If you think you'll face UrPhid every other matchup with a few Ducktape decks thrown in, then maybe you should go GaT w/ red.  If you're going to be facing Mask, Tangle TnT, some Void, maybe the mirror once, and maybe a Keeper (so, my metagame)?  You're probably hurting yourself more with a red splash than you're helping.

.

I think I've answered my own question then.  I was just trying to get some imput as well.  I think this assessment is pretty accurate.  I have found the addition to be costly and mostly unnecessary.  i.e. I'd be playing the mirror and have Reb open but no one would cast into it.  I just didn't need it.

Steve

[Kerzkid11]

Quote (Smmenen @ May 26 2003,17:52)Frankly, GAT is a monsterous fucking aggro-control deck.  It doesn't pussy foot with bullshit tapping - it ramrods its dildo into your face.  Ice is a very shitty cantrip and Fire is only good in a feild of TnT, Stax, and Sligh.  TEMPO?  You want to talk about Tempo?  How about I berserk my Tog.  That's tempo, not fucking Icing a land eot.  

Dude, as a GAT player since the beginning and an avid hater of all fire/ices, Amen.

This could even turn into a conversation about the real usefulness of fire/ice nowadays. Is it worth the red splash to add this mediocre card? Not at all.

I mean most UrPhid builds have been cutting way down to 2 Fire/Ice's themselves; thats the deck that really has used it the most from the start. Maybe this tells you something.

Like you said, F/I is good in a meata of sligh and stax. In a general meta this card is gonna be cycling EOT like nobody's business.

Another main argument for this card: "Ooh, it pitches to FoW and MisD." Big fucking deal. So does every other blue card ever. The things that most GAT versions cut for this pitches anyway.

[Fever]

Testify! I have been trying to tell people for months that Fire/Ice is overrated. This isnt the same metagame as two years ago, weenie decks are scarce. A lot of ppl argue that Ice can at least buy you a turn vs a fatty, but i dont see that as much of an argument. Even in UrPhid, i dont even run them, they have been replaced by a mix of Control Magic and Powder Keg.

I especially dont see the reasoning for them in GAT. Having trouble with Sligh are you? How about TNT? Didnt think so. Their only merit is that they kill Welders against Stax, but thats not enough to warrant inclusion in my opinion.

[Kerzkid11]

Honestly I think people want red for S/B options but hate to splash it just for that. So, they throw a few fire/ice in the main and  bam, their concience is cleared.

Even in keeper nowadays, they cut green and keep red for one fire/ice in the main. Cut the f/i and what do you have? wOSE!!

In the s/bs of todays meta red is huge. In the maindecks of today throwing fire/ice in is probably not a good choice.


Anyway, I want to get back to the GAT evolution subject.

What does everyone think of Deed in the board?

[Kaervek]

Never considered it, never tried it.

And what's probaby more: never needed it. What matchups other than game 1 against Stax/MUD do you see Deed being useful in?

[Smmenen]

Ok, I've stated this in one of the very first GAT threads a couple of months ago, but I really don't like the idea of Deed anywhere near GAT.  I mean, just consider the function of Deed as opposed to the function of GAT and there is no synergy at all.  Blowing up one permanent sucks and should you lose a dryad or a tog, the price is too high.  It's not a terrible idea given the meta, but it's not a good one either.

Steve