Paragon Keeper 7/03

[MoreFling]

I just have to say arcane laboratory sounds really bad in theory, but I suppose it wasn't heh.

[K-Run]

Quote I just have to say arcane laboratory sounds really bad in theory, but I suppose it wasn't heh.

Could you explain this, please? I'm no Keeper expert but I'd like to see the "theory" behind this statement.

[MoreFling]

Quote (K-Run @ Sep. 02 2003,22:05)Could you explain this, please? I'm no Keeper expert but I'd like to see the "theory" behind this statement.

You are generating bad cards on your side. Will is not very strong. Twister is not verys trong. Cunning Wish is completely dead.
You need more explenation?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Well, as Arcane Lab says "You can't loose" against the decks you board it against, making some of your cards worse isn't exactly what you care about.
It's like me playing Null Rod in Berlin because of Long.dec, if the opponent just scoops, who caresif the card also hurts yourself.

[Matt The Great]

Or maybe you side out the cards Arcane Lab would make suck.

[Cuandoman]

Quote (Matt The Great @ Sep. 02 2003,21:58)Or maybe you side out the cards Arcane Lab would make suck.

Genius! Well, hot damn that would be a great idea wouldnt it?

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Mon, Goblin Chief @ Sep. 02 2003,18:21)Well, as Arcane Lab says "You can't loose" against the decks you board it against, making some of your cards worse isn't exactly what you care about.
It's like me playing Null Rod in Berlin because of Long.dec, if the opponent just scoops, who caresif the card also hurts yourself.

Quoted for truth.

Suicide plays Null Rod alongside Mox Jet and Lotus, doesn't it?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I wasn't even playing Suicide, I was playing The Shining with 2 Null Rods SBed, because I knew there would be a lot of Long.decs played by the guys from Minden. I was right and Null Rod won me a game (and with that the match). Metagame-hate = \n\n

[LemanRuss]

Steve, I would introduce to you one of my recent ideas in improving Keeper. You have probably already thought about it, but it may be interesting to discuss anyway.

I just finished reading JP's topic about "is Keeper's strategy obsolete or no, and if it is, can we improve it ?" and if I could sum up general feelings I read from people about the strengh of Keeper today, I would say that Keeper is needing a new silver bullet that hose creatureless decks as well as The Abyss or Moat did in past metagames. I also read your post in JP's topic, and even if I agreed with your feelings, I could not figure out if you we agree with that idea or no.


May I suggest you a new silver bullet in Keeper ? I thought about Meddling mage.

It is:

- A proactive answer to one or two opponent's must-counter threats (exemple of hosing two threats at one time: locking Cabal Therapy against Rector Trix)

- It does not (or may not) affect The Deck itself

- It can win games by itself in some situation, against several today's top decks

- It is cheap

- It is blue (!)

- It may (and WILL sometimes) kill your opponent. I played Keeper at the two last Dülmen tournaments, and sometimes I made mediocre results because of many draws, due to the 50mn time rounds: I made 3 draws that would probably had been victories if my kill had hit the time few turns sooner.

- Many of today's top decks are very sensitive to that card even if it does not lock them completely (exemple: locking Cunning wish against Hulksmash)

- The Abyss is not maindecked anymore, and the decks against The Abyss will be maindecked are generally inefficiently affected by Meddling Mage



In fact, I have been testing this card for several weeks, but not in Keeper (I am trying to build an hybrid deck between Keeper and Phidian wich includes that card). So long, it makes very, very good results in my tests and I believe Keeper can break this card too.


So, that was just a suggestion. I am sorry if my post appears to be a little off-topic.

[Zherbus]

Dre (on IRC) is running a pair of Meddling Mages and they seem to be working well for him. He also doesn't run Shaman, so he never really needs to fetch red mana game 1, which makes Mages tons easier to run.

I don't like it because it might as well cost 3 or 4 mana, since at 2cc it is eating valuable Mana Drain 'tempo slots'. I do like it because of what it does, god knows I've seen them annoy many a player. Also, I also don't like it because I feel that 4 is needed to be assured in the early game where they are most needed. I just don't think Keeper has that kind of room, though I could be wrong.

so...

- Its casting cost is an issue.

Do you cut Shamans? Draw Spells? Search? Counters? Broken things like Mind Twist and Yawgmoth's Will? Where is the room?

- What to take out for it is an issue.

[Eastman]

You definitely don't need four of a card like this in Keeper.

1-2 could be exceedingly useful.

I would cut one of the intermediate hand arrangement slots (most run duress/impulse here) to try out one of these. I don't see that many more are necessary for testing purposes.

[Zherbus]

OK, look at why you would want Meddling Mage. Take out it's general 'usefulness' which can be defined as causing an inconvenience to decks until they find a way to kill it (Sligh and Mud for example). Then you are left with the only deck it would really be a bomb against would be combo, which you want early game. Not when you can tutor for it or draw into it.

[LemanRuss]

Quote - Its casting cost is an issue.

Well, yes, but in fact I consider Meddling mage as multiple proactive Mana drains.
For exemple, if you are playing against Masknought, you can lock Illusionary mask early, no matter if you have a Mana drain in hand or no. Of course, if the opponent had not the mask in hand, you lost tempo. But the game hoser is on the table, locking no less than 8 cards (the masks and the dreadnoughts !) And if you have kept your mana untapped to drain, maybe he would have duressed your card anyway on his turn before casting the mask. Against Stax/MUD, you can lock Goblin welder so you are sure the would never hi the table. Against Bangbus-like decks, resolving a mage even if you have a Mana drain in hand may buy you far more turns than countering a single spell. And so on...

Then, another point: I figured out that Keeper's mana curve is not really optimal. If you don't have a Mana drain in hand, you have few interessant turn 2 spells to cast with two manas. And with four Mana drains, you have less than 1/2 chances to see one of them in your oppening hand. Many times I had to cast Force of Will while having two untapped mana on the table, because it was my only option - with the mages, you have more (definitive) countermagic for two manas.

Third, if you have a Mana drain in hand and two manas of the table, you are very likely to play it this turn, as the decks Keeper fears in today's metagame have a very offensive strategy. So, you will seldom wait to have four manas before playing the mage, for you will have no more Mana drain in hand. So you can, for exemple, cast a mage and a Cunning wish with the drained mana on turn three... Well, this is just an exemple, but I have tested this strategy it and it worked fine for me.

Quote - What to take out for it is an issue.

Of course, you must figure out what is the best strategy and then use the proper cards, but maybe (this is just an exemple) the mana denial tech could be replaced by the Meddling mage one.
What is important is that the different techs work well together: you said Dre does not run Shaman, maybe he does not need them, as the mana denial tech is no more needed in his deck ? But I may be wrong, and the way to go might be replacing Duress with Meddling mage as a more expensive but a more efficient disruption card ? Personnally, I like playing some Duress in addition to the Meddling Mage, as it offers great synergy with it.


In a metagame filled with so powerful killer-cards, a such powerful card as Meddling mage could be if played properly, could be worth to consider.

[Zherbus]

Oh, it's definetly worth considering. I just can't get past a few things.

Quote Then, another point: I figured out that Keeper's mana curve is not really optimal. If you don't have a Mana drain in hand, you have few interessant turn 2 spells to cast with two manas. And with four Mana drains, you have less than 1/2 chances to see one of them in your oppening hand. Many times I had to cast Force of Will while having two untapped mana on the table, because it was my only option - with the mages, you have more (definitive) countermagic for two manas.

Mana Curve only matters in Sligh. If you consider that Keeper has 1) Acceleration, 2) a number of cheap casting cost solutions, and 3) only really 1 card that runs over 3 mana, I think what you call a curve is just fine.

Quote Third, if you have a Mana drain in hand and two manas of the table, you are very likely to play it this turn, as the decks Keeper fears in today's metagame have a very offensive strategy. So, you will seldom wait to have four manas before playing the mage, for you will have no more Mana drain in hand. So you can, for exemple, cast a mage and a Cunning wish with the drained mana on turn three... Well, this is just an exemple, but I have tested this strategy it and it worked fine for me.

We agree that Mage isn't hitting until turn 3-4, typically. I see this being effective against Hulk, but not Long.dec or Mud. That is my biggest issue, combined with the fact it will be hard to color balance this unless you cut Shaman from the maindeck.

Quote Of course, you must figure out what is the best strategy and then use the proper cards, but maybe (this is just an exemple) the mana denial tech could be replaced by the Meddling mage one.
What is important is that the different techs work well together: you said Dre does not run Shaman, maybe he does not need them, as the mana denial tech is no more needed in his deck ? But I may be wrong, and the way to go might be replacing Duress with Meddling mage as a more expensive but a more efficient disruption card ? Personnally, I like playing some Duress in addition to the Meddling Mage, as it offers great synergy with it.


In a metagame filled with so powerful killer-cards, a such powerful card as Meddling mage could be if played properly, could be worth to consider.

I think this last bit goes to show just how hard fitting Mage would be. Given all of this discussion, my conclusion is that Meddling Mage, if included at all, is best as a sideboard card. If you could make room for 2-3 and bring them in over spot removal in some matchups, I'm willing to bet they would prove themselves alot more.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Zherbus @ Sep. 05 2003,05:30)We agree that Mage isn't hitting until turn 3-4, typically. I see this being effective against Hulk, but not Long.dec or Mud. That is my biggest issue, combined with the fact it will be hard to color balance this unless you cut Shaman from the maindeck.

i have tested mages against hulk fairly extensivly in a u/r/w phid deck. we spent several weeks testing mages and i'm pretty sure they only made a difference once... when hulk killed a bloodmoon, 3 phids, and a mage then willed and burned all of it's red blasts, and wishes. then mage on tog was game. our typical first named card was ak followed by cunning wish or red blast depending on the game.

anyway, hulk really never cared unless you had multiple mages.

[Zherbus]

Thanks Alex, I think you just saved me an hour of playtesting. I do think Meddling Mage may make a difference, but only if you want to focus on doing something specific. For instance, locking out Cunning Wish to protect an enxhantment like Abyss, Bloodmoon, or whatever. Of course, this doesn't work post board since they have reb's are removal.

[MisterShark]

O.K., I know I'm incredibly likely to get blown out for bringing up this idea, but here goes anyway: what about main-decking one lone Shadowmage Infiltrator for a little card drawing?  
In the days of main decked Abyss/ Moat, I would not have given it a thought, but that was then.
Granted, he doesn't come incredibly cheap, casting cost-wise, but it's not like we're looking to win on turn two.

The Infiltrator is untested by myself and is strictly the product of brainstorming for a candidate to fill an available slot in my particular Paragon Keeper build.  I'm not claiming the card as 'the next coming' for Keeper, but I thought I'd just bounce it off the community and see what the general consensus is.

Most likely, the biggest problem with this creature is his blockability at the hands of all the artifact creatures from TnT variants, plus the fact that Hulk's Togs are black.  I have not missed these unfortunate facts.  Maybe these conditions alone dismiss the feasibility of the Infiltrator.  But if you could clear the way with a StP, just once or twice, for that extra card draw or two, would he then have pulled his weight and earned his slot?

I can almost hear the blowtorches heating up already
  

[Windfall]

If you're worried about his evasion not really being an issue, why not use Ophidian?  Since you're most common blockers are going to be able to intercept the Shadowmage anyway, you may as well go with the snake because you can Drain into it much easier and get it going sooner.

By replacing Duress with Impulse, you take away some of the strain on having an early Black mana source.  Shadowmage would require you to find an Underground Sea before you really wanted to.  You already want an early W for removal and an early R for Gorilla Shaman.

As far as the idea goes, I think it's possible, but too slow.  Keeper doesn't always have enough time to remove threats and then go into a slow card-drawing mode with a lonely Phid.  Keeper rises to a superior position by nullifying the opponent's progress and then recovering with an explosive draw effect to refill the hand immediately.

Just a question, why do you have an extra slot?  It seems that Keeper would always find something to put in an extra slot if it's lucky enough to find one.  But I would agree that any extra slot should go to more card drawing.  I find that I'm always in a winning position when I have the card drawers, and that I lose when I can't find them fast enough.  Thus, another of them would be nice, but what to use?

     ~Mark

[Matt The Great]

SI is just as bad as Phid. Three-mana, sorcery speed, blockable, removable, and taking three turns to even begin being useful* - these are not the hallmarks of a strong draw card.


* One to replace itself, one to draw a card, one more to actually provide enough bang for your buck - "three mana, draw two cards" is not quite playable in this format -  especially when, for the same three mana, you could have Scrolled up and cast Ancestral Recall\n\n

[PhOeNiX]

First of all, the reason why Ophidian will always be played over Shadowmage Infiltrator is a casting cost issue. 2U compared to 1UB is huge. In a deck running four Moxen (should be five if Ophidians are included), you can get it into play a turn quicker which is crucial.

The Ophidian draw engine is also very fragile one.

As Matt said, the sorcery speed is huge. It leaves you open for a turn and it doesn't get you anything until next turn. In order for it to generate any cards requires it to get through opposing creatures. Anything from Mishra's Factory to Dwarven Miner can ruin Ophidians day if you cannot find a Swords to Plowshares or a Strip/Waste effect.

You also have to protect the damn thing. The ideal play would be "Land. Mox, Sol Ring, Ophidian"; or something of the sort. If your opponent Bolts it, you are then left with a whole bunch of acceleration without much gas to spend it on. In order to protect your engine, you'd have to run some Duress or Misdirection action - or both, to ensure that the Ophidians net you some card advantage.

Ophidian makes your opponent's removal cards useful now; as opposed to previously being dead weight in hand. The only thing you can really kill against Keeper is Gorilla Shaman.

[Cartman316 _420]

How much is Fire/Ice missed? Personally I loved it in Keeper and was wondering why it didn't make the cut? It obviously shines versus Sligh and could be an excellent wish target in that matchup. I know the pros/cons have been laid out before, but I am a supporter of it right now. It can even shut off Winter Orb versus Stax.

Thoughts?

~Cartman

[Zherbus]

Fire/Ice is back, Welder Mud made this so.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote  can even shut off Winter Orb versus Stax

...or it can take out welders.  Hmm, yeah, I think I'll take out the welders instead.

I'm not sure of steve's decision, but I think there were wish targets that did what fire/ice does, except better (BEB, REB, StP, Shattering Pulse take out most of the permanents you'll ever see instead of just tapping them).  If you mean maindeck, then its a completely different issue, since the MD is as tight as they come.

edit: steve has spoken (while i was trying to spoke)\n\n

[Zherbus]

Yes, maindeck as Cunning Wish could just find STP, Pulse, or BEB.

[Cartman316 _420]

GrandI: Obviously take out welder, but I was making that comment as if welder wasn't there. I was just saying I like fire/ice a lot.

Zherbus: In the sideboard you have Vamp Tutor but wouldn't something like Lim Dul's Vault be better? and what happened to Merchant Scroll?

~Cartman

[Zherbus]

Vamp is cheaper, and often costs less life. You are using this in conjunction witha 3 mana card, you realize. Merchant Scroll got only Wish or Ancestral (Why Tutor for a Counter when you can do something better?), there was better things for the slot at the time. Also, note the last time I gave out a current decklist was in July.

[Freddie]

Zherbus is quite a showsman...

Keeping us all in suspence while he developes the newest "state of the art" keeper.



I know that you are testing alot of stuff, but would you still post what you are currently testing?

I know that you were avoiding it before since some of your local opponents read the threads, but we are all still curious.

BTW who is the person that started advocating Trenches in keeper?

I have seen it work really well, but it still seems out of place to me.

Thanks.

-Freddie\n\n

[Maxx Matt]

Zherbus: During my Testing session a lot I notice ( not a great discovery...  ) that the introduction of a 3° Duress over the Merchant Scroll/4° Wish Slot  can open my way to the winning better than any other card in the deck.


You are of course testing the right rate among Hand & Mana Disruption/Cheap Drawers/Broken Spell, and I wish to read your point about this.

I'm now divided testing 2 main strategy for "the Deck", one ALL Wish Oriented and the other with different proportions between some cards in MD and Side.

As Incipit, I state that the Swap of the Merchant Scroll for Another One Best card has been a good choice. Usually it has began the 3° Duress or the 4° Wish. The deck as only 2 main Scroll Target: Ancestral & Wish ( maybe FoF... ) so it could be replaced by something more useful.

I keep considering it in only if I could pack my foil F/I MD another time


with 4 Wish I have a "All Istants" side, 2 Duress and a configuration very similar to your maindeck ( only 5 Fetch over the CoB). The tested side is:

3 ReB                           ( blu based deck )
1 BeB                           ( Sligh, Welders, Blood Moon, Burn )
1 Stiffle                        (storm based decks )
1 Sword to Plowshares    (aggro )
1 Fire/Ice                      ( stax, cheap creatures, welders...
1 Orim's Chant              ( stops big turns, gains you a turn
1 Skeletal scrying         ( draw cards, break control matchup)
1 coffin purge              ( graveyard hate )
1 shattering pulse  ( midgame stax artifact
1 disenchant         ( early stax broken artifacts
1 flame gambit       (good finisher, can target untargetable creatures, trade lethal damage for Togs/Driads/Dreads&so on...)
1 renewed faith   ( life gainer, perhaps not always needed... )
1 Vampiric tutor ( so I have 5 slow demonic tutors...  )

the only "so so" slot is the renewed faith that heps me not so much times, and can began the 4° ReB, the 2° Sword and so on...

With this configuration I can handle better the game after turn 2 and 3, and the 4° Wish allowed me many times to do nasty-crazy-consistent play. I can let the opponent counter the first without any problem, almost sure of drawing into another soon and/or force some solution keeping a deadly 3° or 4° wish for sealing games or surprising the opponent with the variety of possible choices and/or gaining advantage sending out of game some IstantBrokenSpell to abuse of them another one time and so on...

the problem are some fast opponent's clock, that a good First turn duress could have been retarded or not allowed AND most of all having a more SOLID strategy against some specific matchup Without flooding and diluiting the power of the side only using non PERMANENT solutions....

so I have tested your 3 Wish configuration but with 3 Duress and a focused side for these specific Matchups:

Hulk
Stax
Trix
Storm Based Decks ( long.dec and rectal agony in primis... )
Dragon.dec
truemadness/reanimator

SIDE:
1 Tormond's Crypt ( great in conjunction with Timetwister... )
1 The Abyss
1 Aura Fracture

4 ReB or 3 ReB & 1 Tormond's Crypt
1 Disenchant
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Sword
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stiffle
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Skelatal Scrying

1 BeB / 1 Tormond'S Crypt / 1 Gush

In summary, I'm More confident in the above strategy. using the first one I'll be often confident on winning more consistently game one but  ONLY to see my deck overrunned by hate with an obviuos bad result game 2 & 3

the only slot not completely assigned is the one you can yourself see... but i think that it will be BeB for a large random metagame ( blood moon, red critters, welders, sligh) or something more focused for specific metagames


Having one or more of these Bombs In play ( abyss vs. every aggro, crypt vs. rector/hulk/squee.dec and fracture vs. every DEADLY echantment ) could change the hesit of the match and recurring them via Will & Twister and/or Searching them in a better way game 2 & 3 ( I usually swap Mystical for Vamp if I have to take Out Wishes for better answers and most of all i f I need them FAST!... ) is A HOUSE.

...Not to mention the mana denial strategy that shine as a star in this current metagame

what do you think?
are you working in a similar way?

-----------
Maxx Matt
-----------


PS. I'll Hope to see you soon in Italy for some Big tourney!!!

  

[MolotDET]

In all my current testing I have noticed that by doing alot of radical things to the SB and Maindeck to allow for better matches against most of the top tier decks (Hulk, Long, Mud, Goblins, Ankh, rectors) is that the deck becomes worse and worse against Gay Fish.

     Has this been a problem for everyone or just me?

[Zherbus]

@Freddie, I'll be more than glad to talk in private. I do have a final version that I have recorded testing results for everything one would need it for, for tomorrows tournament. I just got sick of everyone knowing everything down to the 60th card of my deck before we sat down and played.

@Maxx Matt, That version last listed is really out-dated. I don't run Duress at all, and only would if combo were more of a threat.

@MolotDET, Yes. Fish is both Gay and annoying. It took me going 0-6 to learn how to sideboard/play properly, then using one slot for a hoser if you want to do well versus fish is the next step.