Paragon Keeper 7/03

[Zherbus]

I generally always run a counterspell type card in my board for such purposes. Right now, Stifle is filling that role where as before a Misdirection was occupying the slot. If I wanted a more sold counterspell, I would be tempted to run Mana Leak since it will be much easier to cast.

Right now I think the Wishable Counterspell options cascade like this:

1. Stifle
2. Misdirection
3. Mana Leak
4. Counterspell/Divert/Disrupt/any other respectable counterspell

[PucktheCat]

I hadn't thought of Mana Leak.  That would probably serve the same purpose.  I have to say though, that I think Misdirection would be below Mana Leak and vanilla Counter on my list.  Maybe I have died too often to random topdecked Necropotences after I have complete control of the Rector game (Purge in the Grave, CW in hand) but I really hate not having a simple counterspell.

Leo

[Kheoinn]

I've never had Cunning Wish be dead. Vampiric Tutor and Skeletal Scrying are both usually non-situational cards that can find answers fast. Disenchant can help against Necropotence as well.

In a high aggro metagame, has anyone thought about resurrecting old tech and running a COP Main with an Alter Reality SB? The COP can take Tendrils or any kind of aggro, and the Alter Reality also goes 2 for 1 against REB (I believe).

[Zherbus]

A small detail but COP:Black doesn't stop the loss of life.

[Eastman]

Any thoughts on Keeper's fantastic loss this week-end?

[BillTheDuck]

I know at least a few of those keepers were very close to making T8, so it wasn't a total loss. A different topdeck here and there could have shown a few keeper reps in the T8. Also, there probably weren't as many keeper's (as we define it) as SCG said there were, lots of them were probably other types of multi-color control.

Still, it is shocking that not ONE of them made T8. Im blaming it on chance. That combined with the fact that keeper isn't very redundant and can shit out on you from match to match, so 8 rounds with it isn't so good.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Eastman @ July 27 2003,19:30)Any thoughts on Keeper's fantastic loss this week-end?

That everyone will hopefully finally notice that the deck isn't good and has only lasted as long as it has because there just weren't enough people innovating.

[Zherbus]

Quote Any thoughts on Keeper's fantastic loss this week-end?

1. 8 rounds of swiss is horrible for Keeper. Especially in a field that big, people shouldn't play the most tedious deck to play.

2. How many builds were current, let alone optimal? I will say that the people that generally innovate on many of the Keeper builds published were zero in attendance. Every control playing Paragon who went, played Hulk.

3. The last few years, Keeper has not done good at large tournaments. Partially because people will always have hate for Keeper. At a more local tournament, the metagame shifts and unless its a constant Keeper domination, you won't see a fraction of that hate.

4. Any thoughts on the trend of Keepers fantastic wins prior to this tournament? (You could talk in a different thread about this)

5. As I understand it, a few Keeper decks made Top 16 anyways. Out of 183, thats no win, but its not pathetic either.

6. This is way off topic, so if you want to start a 'Keeper did horrible! Why?' thread somewhere, go ahead.

Again, post in another thread about this as it has nothing to do with this build of Keeper.

[Jaapmans]

Last weekend I had the opportunity to play the deck Zherbus posted with the only modification to include a masticore over the second gorilla shaman.

I played aprox 15-20 games versus several decks. I didn't write down the results as it was more a casual play than a serious playtest session. I played against UG madness (T1 version with Bazaar and blue power, no counters), the mirror, against TnT and against MoreFlings favourite (can't think of the name anymore, but mostly-white with sac. pegasus and blood moons). Furthermore I was able to watch a view games other players played.

The reason for this post is that I seriously miss The Abyss. Against any sort of aggro deck (black weenie, goblins, UG Madness and even TnT) I just miss this very solid creature removal card.

So I'm definately going to include it again. Question is what can I take out? I'd like your help with this. I'm considering a Brainstorm as I find myself rather often with consequetive Brainstorms.

Do you miss The Abyss as well as much as I do? Is this version of Keeper to much focussed on combo and control metagame and doesn't it have to little answers for Agro?

Your thoughts please.

[Pyromaniac]

Paragon Keeper is designed for a random metagame. However, since most metagames include lots of stax and combo nowadays, it has to adapt for those. The Abyss isn't functional enough and thus is left out.

If you feel it's needed though, by all means, add it to the maindeck again. Cards to remove are either Brainstorm or a Duress I think. If you face lots of aggro, Duress is ok, but it really shines vs stax/MUD/combo decks.

my err...very small amount of eurocents...

[Zherbus]

If I ever felt I needed The Abyss again, it would likely return as a sideboard card. It's dead against so much, that I'd really hate to draw it over something useful.

[CrazyCarl]

About Keeper...

Old version of Keeper(Read not this one) aren't as good as everything they try to do, Hulk does better, faster, and awesomer.  This version has new goals, and does them better than everything else(save Suicide and/or Ankh Sligh).  Keep in mind, I won a Mox Tourney a few weeks ago, so the deck is DEFINATELY viable and good.

[hulk3rules]

Quote (Eastman @ July 27 2003,19:30)Any thoughts on Keeper's fantastic loss this week-end?

On a related note- I won the first tournament I competed in at Gencon on Thursday night with Carl Keeper.dec.  I went 5-0-1 with my draw to suicide black.

This leads me to my next point.  The current keeper build has a quite unfavorable matchup vs Sui black.  I playtested it a lot the night before with Mykeatog, and he won about five or six games before I finally pulled one out.  The matchup is so bad that I think it may be time to go back to playing COP: black sideboard again.  Any thoughts on this?

[Zherbus]

Either COP:Black or the more flexible Abyss. I have it back in my sideboard because of the fact I only run 2 STP's maindeck, everything else has to be Wished for. Game 2 & 3, you can have Abyss, 3 STP, Gush, Vamp (this is HUGE), and side out the x wishes, x Wastelands, x Duress, x Shamans.

I opt to keep Abyss from the maindeck, because like I said, the best decks aren't affected by it. Hulk virtually ignores 4cc critter kill that has to be played on the mainphase, Rector decks love it, and Stax comfortably ignores it. Even common decks, like Ankh Sligh pay it little heed. They just throw Shamans who have already had some snacky cakes in the pit to keep the Pups alive another turn.

I opted for Abyss over COP:Black, because there STILL isn't that many people playing Suicide and less than half of them are really all the good. I'd rather have the option of bringing in the Abyss against random aggro like Madness.dec.

[Eastman]

I agree, Keeper is definitely still viable. Don't let my question (which I think is very relevant) imply that I think Keeper is dead or hurting (which it isn't).

Now that Hulk did so well so publically, and even some Shining builds are moving to AK as a draw engine, is it time to add a wishable AK to the sideboard?

[hulk3rules]

But with Carl winning T1 Worlds, and JP and Azhrei going crazy about it, Tog will gain popularity.  COP: Black is good vs Tog too, as it will force them to get cunning wish-naturalize.  And on another note- abyss is not so good vs madness, as they run anywhere from 2-4 anger

[Zherbus]

Quote But with Carl winning T1 Worlds, and JP and Azhrei going crazy about it, Tog will gain popularity.  COP: Black is good vs Tog too, as it will force them to get cunning wish-naturalize.

I would never bring COP:Black in against Hulk as it doesn't stop the draw engine which is the real menace. I wouldn't bring in Abyss or STP either for those same reasons.

Quote And on another note- abyss is not so good vs madness, as they run anywhere from 2-4 anger

Good point, as COP:Black isnt very good against Hulk, Abyss shouldn't be too good against Madness.dec. It was really a bad example put forth without a thought, please replace the random aggro example with something like 'reanimator', 'R/G Beats', 'Zoo', and other subpar decks.

[Fever]

This will sound sarcastic, but its really not.

What are we supposed to discuss? This is THE best version of Keeper for the current metagame, period. Its so nice that i get all warm and fuzzy just looking at the decklist.

A part of me still wants to fit Mox Emerald in, but with 5 Strips it is basically impossible to do so. Perhaps, with the lowered overall casting cost of our spells(the highest now being 3cc) we could consider it over the Sol Ring? Please dont flame me, just an idea.

[Dante]

Quote (Fever @ July 29 2003,13:50)This will sound sarcastic, but its really not.

What are we supposed to discuss? This is THE best version of Keeper for the current metagame, period. Its so nice that i get all warm and fuzzy just looking at the decklist.

A part of me still wants to fit Mox Emerald in, but with 5 Strips it is basically impossible to do so. Perhaps, with the lowered overall casting cost of our spells(the highest now being 3cc) we could consider it over the Sol Ring? Please dont flame me, just an idea.

I believe the discussion is on the sideboard now that Gencon is over and what decks people think they will see.

Dante

[walking dude]

I'm not sure how much a SB ak will do. The first intuition is grabbing AK and 2 DAs which you toss in the grave. Then they either draw 4 cards or you burn 1-2 counters. Then after that they need to cast ak at least twice before its worth wishing for one. So they are up at least 5 cards at this point, possibly more if they used intuition to dump another 2 aks in the yard and one in hand. By that point I think its probably to late for you to get bask in the game. Not to say it won't happen, but I think odds are against it.  

Conclusion: Ak is only worth wishing for after its too late for it to do any good.

Note: I play hulk, not keeper so I have not tested AK in the keeper side. It may turn out to work, but my experience from the other side leads me to believe it won't work. I think wishing for AK is like wishing for plow after I cast tog. If it resolves its good, but its not going to.

[PsychoCid]

Not that it needs to be said, but I might as well cover the Emerald comment made by Fever a few posts up.

Moxen are quick, small amounts of accel that provide useful colored mana.  Sol Ring provides hard fuel--and that's about it.  We're talking about slightly different functions, here.

To phrase it quite simply, there are a plethora of reasons to run Sol Ring over an off-color Mox.  Namely, those reasons would be Yawgmoth's Will, Fact or Fiction, Cunning Wish, Future Sight, Timetwister, Goblin Trenches(, Gorilla Shaman, Force of Will, and sideboard cards) PLUS the added feature of using the mana for more than one spell.  This totals to likely around or over a 6th of the deck, whereas the places Emerald -might- be better than Ring are limited to about four cards--possibly even less.

Really, this is a non-issue, but in the interest of keeping everything clearly defined for anyone looking for information, there it is.

[rozetta]

Firstly, hi again everyone, and good to be back. I had a really busy time at my work about 2 months ago and then took 5 weeks holiday in which I was hardly near a computer at all, let alone my cards  Now I'm back from my hols and at work again (which is busy again, but not to the level it was earlier).

Onto the critique (or more like stupid questions)...

This is an interesting build of Keeper. Quite a departure to things a year ago, or even a few months ago. I'm really surprised at the amount of changes I see.

I've always liked the mana-denial aspect of Keeper and have been a big fan of 5 strips + shaman. (He's a beatstick). Actually, as far as Twister is concerned, it's an ok idea, since this deck has a fairly low amount of _real_ card drawing (no geyser/stroke), and the twister allows you to recover back to library range for relatively cheap. There's no regrowth, so it won't be recurred, which is the only downside.

How does the sligh matchup look now that you've removed Zuran Orb? I know I've tinkered before with moving ZOrb in and out of the deck, but I normally err on the side of caution and keep it in there for tournaments just because of the sligh factor.

As far as I can tell, the reason it's not there is because it'll compete for land versus trenches.

I've never tried goblin trenches, so I don't have much to say about it right now. I seem to remember sometime last year it was the type 2 answer to psychatog for a short while (around the time of the nationals). Funny that it should be again. Is it really that much better than morphling, given that you lose land when making guys? As far as I can tell, it's got to be more than just an edict-proof win condition.

I think I also missed the discussion sometime in the past, but is there any reason for disenchant in side as opposed to allay? (I'm guessing Stax is probably the reason, so you have some flexibility in being able to wish for 2 artifact removals, and parfait hasn't been a factor recently). Of course, you have 2 artifact removal main already, so wouldn't the flexibility of allay be better (also as a safety net versus random wierd decks)?

Lastly, is that gush in sideboard really all that good? I've tried it once or twice, but was never too fond of it as a wish target (especially now you have only 3 wishes main).

[Zherbus]

Quote How does the sligh matchup look now that you've removed Zuran Orb? I know I've tinkered before with moving ZOrb in and out of the deck, but I normally err on the side of caution and keep it in there for tournaments just because of the sligh factor.

In the build at the beginning of the thread? Not good. You need to make a wishable life gain target to make it better. Zuran Orb eats up too much maindeck space versus everything else. Even the cycle card would be iffy to squeeze in there.

Quote  Is it really that much better than morphling, given that you lose land when making guys? As far as I can tell, it's got to be more than just an edict-proof win condition.

Yeah, Morphling is mad slow. You don't use Trenches until you can win with it, just like Morphling. Morphling requires mana to pump into it and use its abilities, so the difference there is minimal. The ability to just swing for 10 and end the game in 2 turns versus Morphling is a huge reason. Stax hates it too.

Quote I think I also missed the discussion sometime in the past, but is there any reason for disenchant in side as opposed to allay? (I'm guessing Stax is probably the reason, so you have some flexibility in being able to wish for 2 artifact removals, and parfait hasn't been a factor recently). Of course, you have 2 artifact removal main already, so wouldn't the flexibility of allay be better (also as a safety net versus random wierd decks)?

It originally started when we realized enchantment based decks sucked and we really only needed to worry about the first Survival against TnT. It also added flexability in the case of a turn 1 Juggernaut, while staring at an Allay in hand. When Stax came around, it was already mostly in place.

[Windfall]

Quote In the build at the beginning of the thread?

This line hints that you have changed the build a bit.  Would you mind sharing the current build with us so that we may see what you've decided to do?  The maindeck is so tight that it can't change too much.  You suggest that you've increased the chances against aggro some.  Did you add a Renewed Faith to the deck or to the sideboard?  I figure it's best in the board, though the cycling is nice.

I wrote a bit in the Basic User/Newbie forum discussing this thread, but I didn't get the answers I wanted from there.  I don't think you ever joined in that discussion.

Overall, I love this version next to older builds that I still see sometimes.  I never liked The Abyss maindeck that much; it's good to see some builds that omit it.

The only main question I had for you when I first read your column was whether or not you ever had a problem hand involving Skeletal Scrying, Yawgmoth's Will, and Timetwister?  I can see how casting any of these cards is some good in your build of Keeper, but I wonder how well these cards work in conjunction with each other.  Obviously, Scrying is on the board for situations where you need some draw, but even the Will and the Twister seem to work against each other a bit.  You don't like to Twister after you've already removed your broken cards from the game do you?

I realize you can throw one or both of them away to an early Brainstorm, but they're bound to appear together sometimes.  Since you don't always want to cast them early in the game, you'll have them for awhile.

But please share your new thoughts on this deck and what you've done to change the problems you found (if any).

     ~Mark\n\n

[Exeter]

RE: Will/Twister/Scrying.

These cards don't work against each other as much as you would think.  Usually, with Scrying, you can remove a couple fetchlands and something else relatively useless, so it does not interfere with either Will or Twister.  If you are in a position to Twister before you Will, then that is not such a bad position to be in.  If you Will, then Twist, and want to Ancestral again, that's what Cunning Wish is for.

BTW, I am pleased with the Duress/Twister addition (in fact, I had made those additions myself already), but I find myself not liking Goblin Trenches so much.  I just can't help but think there has to be something better, but as yet, I wouldn't know what that is.  I guess sacing land to make little Goblin chumps doesn't appeal to me too much, although I can't deny it is awesome vs Stax.

Edit: Ok, I guess I didn't read closely enough.  The question was asking about a problem "hand" involving those three cards.  It's pretty unlikely that any two of those three cards will show up in the first 7, so that is not really a problem in my book.  The rest of my post pretty much addresses the general synergy issues.\n\n

[Zherbus]

Quote (Windfall @ Aug. 05 2003,03:46)This line hints that you have changed the build a bit.  Would you mind sharing the current build with us so that we may see what you've decided to do?  The maindeck is so tight that it can't change too much.  You suggest that you've increased the chances against aggro some.  Did you add a Renewed Faith to the deck or to the sideboard?  I figure it's best in the board, though the cycling is nice.

I wrote a bit in the Basic User/Newbie forum discussing this thread, but I didn't get the answers I wanted from there.  I don't think you ever joined in that discussion.

Overall, I love this version next to older builds that I still see sometimes.  I never liked The Abyss maindeck that much; it's good to see some builds that omit it.

About my current build, I will leave it at I wasn't happy with the version originally listed though many of the important fundimentals remain intact. I would like the chance to do my own testing and run it in a real tournament before touting any of changes I may have made.

It becomes old to have everyone prepared for my deck before I ever play them. Keeper is a reactive deck, not only in play nature but in building it. It will always be viable, because there will always be away to respond to the metagame with 4-5 colors to choose from, but will rarely be up to date barring certain individual innovations.

Quote The only main question I had for you when I first read your column was whether or not you ever had a problem hand involving Skeletal Scrying, Yawgmoth's Will, and Timetwister?  I can see how casting any of these cards is some good in your build of Keeper, but I wonder how well these cards work in conjunction with each other.  Obviously, Scrying is on the board for situations where you need some draw, but even the Will and the Twister seem to work against each other a bit.  You don't like to Twister after you've already removed your broken cards from the game do you?

If I see Will and Twister in the opening hand, I either Mulligan or dumpsome mana and try to Twist my way into a new hand. Will is something you never want to see until you have the mana to support it and a broken graveyard. Likewise, Twister is something you don't want to see until you have superior board position and stand to gain a substantial card in hand advantage. Early game, they are both marginal at best.

[Grendal]

Something I think a lot of Keeper players need to realize is this.   There is no "perfect" Keeper build.

The fundamental basic cards have been laid out for you, yes you will pack 4 mana drain, yes you will pack 4 force of will, yes you will pack Ancestral, etc.. etc..

But where you go from there, and the kill method you choose (Morph/Trench/Mast/Tog/Ornithopter) Whatever...  is entirely up to you.   There is no right or wrong answer.

Just because Zherbus changes a card or two, does not automatically mean that you are running an out of date version of Keeper.

Now I agree that there are times when major changes take place that keeping up to date to what they are could be important.   Such times as the loss of green, or the inclusion of fetch lands were all very important changes in the evolution of Keeper.   However...  rather or not to run a Vampiric Tutor, or the number of Wishes, or the inclusion of The Abyss is hardly a factor.   Its entirely up to your own play style, as well as the meta you expect to face.   Two people can enter the same tournament and having radically different Keeper decks, based on what they expected to see, and guess what...   neither player is essentially "wrong" in the choices they made.

So rather than ask Zherbus about his current build, make some modifications of your own, play test it, many MANY times, and decide what you like best.

Also, to the naysayers who doubt Keeper.   No Keeper is not dead by a long shot.   Hulk was the next big thing, and there were quite a few players running Hulk type decks.   A lot of the very experienced tournament players happen to be running that deck as well, so its no wonder they won.   Those same players could have been running Stacks, and would likely have bolstered similiar results (i.e.  high standings).

- Grendal

[Zelif]

"So rather than ask Zherbus about his current build, make some modifications of your own, play test it, many MANY times, and decide what you like best."



Thank you, for saying that. And is there any way that can be added, say after the first five or so posts of any new thread?


Darren A. Dew
THE UNION

[Windfall]

Quote It becomes old to have everyone prepared for my deck before I ever play them.

Fair enough.  I can understand that.  Indeed it's quite annoying to have people playing your exact deck a day after you created it.  This leads me onto the next couple of posts after mine.

Quote Just because Zherbus changes a card or two, does not automatically mean that you are running an out of date version of Keeper.

So rather than ask Zherbus about his current build, make some modifications of your own, play test it, many MANY times, and decide what you like best.

Excuse me for asking what Zherbus has done with his build since he started this thread.  It's not like I am just copying his deck completely; I don't even play Keeper, but it was fun to read the column and keep up with what people have been doing.

You make it out that I have no idea how to build a deck and that I just want to copy what I see on the internet.  This is not the case, or I would have been on TMD netdecking when it began.  I'm interested in other peoples' theories.  Hence, I ask about them.

What you're saying to me seems to be a bit harsh, since all I wanted to do was read about his ideas and compare them to my own, since I know neither of us are right or wrong.  I guess I understand where you're coming from, Grendal, but it's not really appropriate here.  I never said Zherbus was the king of Magic and makes all the right decisions; I merely respect the fact that he's part of a skilled team and I like to read what they have to say about my favorite game.  I enjoy intelligent conversation, and discussing Magic strategy is quite an enjoyable topic for me.  Talking about the game is sometimes more fun than playing it!\n\n

[Grendal]

Quote
You make it out that I have no idea how to build a deck and that I just want to copy what I see on the internet.  This is not the case, or I would have been on TMD netdecking when it began.  I'm interested in other peoples' theories.  Hence, I ask about them.

What you're saying to me seems to be a bit harsh, since all I wanted to do was read about his ideas and compare them to my own, since I know neither of us are right or wrong.  I guess I understand where you're coming from, Grendal, but it's not really appropriate here.  I never said Zherbus was the king of Magic and makes all the right decisions; I merely respect the fact that he's part of a skilled team and I like to read what they have to say about my favorite game.  I enjoy intelligent conversation, and discussing Magic strategy is quite an enjoyable topic for me.  Talking about the game is sometimes more fun than playing it!

I think you may have misunderstood me...   I wasn't trying to slam you, or even to suggest that you did not understand deck building, if you took it that way then you have my appologies, for that was not my intent.   Nor was I trying to suggest Zherbus was the king of magic, currently only Carl has rights to that claim

I was merely suggesting that the difference of a few cards was minimal at best, and that you might want to try your own variations.   You do also have to realize there are a lot of people who will just simply netdeck what Zherbus or one of the other Paragons say.   They to I am sure would like to get ideas from the rest of us, instead of often being the ones to come up with them.

- Grendal

again... no disrespect was intended...