Paragon Keeper 7/03

[CrazyCarl]

It seems like everyone has the same problem with Timetwister that they previously had with Goblin Trenches.  I don't remember Timetwister stating on the card that you have to cast it.  You obviously aren't casting it every single game, and you are only casting it if a) You need to recur Yawgmoth's Will/Trenches, b) Need to draw a miracle and have no other choice and c) Have an obviously superior board position.  In the first case, it's just merely being used as a recursion card, which is fine.  In the 2nd, it's akin to Balance, it might wreck you(though you can play around Balance a bit more), but it has the potential to get you back into the game.  In the 3rd and most common case, it's being used like Armageddon was in White Weenie, to "seal" the game.  When the combo player rips your hand apart with the exception of a few cards, those are likely not counters, while your opponents hand is full of business spells.  You're going to each have better odds of drawing mana sources, and for them, that means casting business cards, for you, that means you aren't drawing counters needed to stop them.  Twister puts you back on a "level" playing field, only you can cast all your stuff, and they can't.

Yes, they're drawing their disruption cards again, but you're drawing yours(Wastes/Duress) and counters, and you're drawing more than they will be(You have 8 counters and 2-3 Duress remember.  You have MORE than they do), because they have more mana sources in your deck.

[Toast]

I think the arguments for both sides are fairly strong....the 1 inconsistancy I see with the for twister argument is actually the following:

Twister is good against discard if you have mana open to use card disadvantage tutors or just have the worlds best timed topdecks, but there is otherwise nothing stopping the player who is running all the discard from snagging your twister. Yes it does make them use a discard spell on it but this really will not phase them in a lot of situations...the combo decks only need to rape your hand of any tricky things before going off.

[leviat]

Quote It seems like everyone has the same problem with Timetwister that they previously had with Goblin Trenches.  I don't remember Timetwister stating on the card that you have to cast it.

Most of us realize that and it comes down to the question of how often does the card just sit in your hand and does nothing (or get pitched to FoW). The answer to that question depends on the metagame and this is where I think we have to two divergent answers.

I personally feel that the metagame has never been worse for a Twister (since I've started playing two years ago), and what I'm hearing from the Paragons on this board is that they feel it is the best time.

So how about I ask this question instead:

Which matchups would you keep the Twister maindeck after sideboarding for games two and three?

[Fever]

Quote (CrazyCarl @ July 23 2003,15:18)You obviously aren't casting it every single game, and you are only casting it if a) You need to recur Yawgmoth's Will/Trenches

Dont mean to go off-topic here, but doesnt Will remove itself from the game when you play it? If not, then I, along with many opponents, have been playing the card wrong for years.

[Dante]

Quote (Fever @ July 23 2003,15:06)

Quote (CrazyCarl @ July 23 2003,15:18)You obviously aren't casting it every single game, and you are only casting it if a) You need to recur Yawgmoth's Will/Trenches

Dont mean to go off-topic here, but doesnt Will remove itself from the game when you play it? If not, then I, along with many opponents, have been playing the card wrong for years.

I'm assuming you'll only need to recur Will if it gets countered...thus, not resolving and going into the graveyard.

Dante

[CrazyCarl]

Quote (Dante @ July 23 2003,13:10)

Quote (Fever @ July 23 2003,15:06)

Quote (CrazyCarl @ July 23 2003,15:18)You obviously aren't casting it every single game, and you are only casting it if a) You need to recur Yawgmoth's Will/Trenches

Dont mean to go off-topic here, but doesnt Will remove itself from the game when you play it? If not, then I, along with many opponents, have been playing the card wrong for years.

I'm assuming you'll only need to recur Will if it gets countered...thus, not resolving and going into the graveyard.

Dante

Or Duressed.  Next time post it in the Rules Mill.

I'm not saying it's the BEST time for Timetwister, but I AM saying it serves a role in the deck and it does it's job well enough to warrent the slot.  I could run another Future Sight, but one of the aims of this build is to cut down on the super expensive cards(notice the lack of Morphling?), and to play cheaper, more durable and versatile threats.  Timetwister falls into this category.  And hell, you can always Brainstorm it away.

[Rico Suave]

One of the biggest reasons I like Timetwister is because it isn't exactly symmetrical.  Keeper is the kind of deck that thrives on having a lot of mana on the board.  If you can get some mana on the board and then reset with Timetwister, you are already in a better position than your opponent simply because you're playing Keeper and consequently you are better equipped to abuse a new set of seven cards than your opponent is.

It's almost like if every deck started out with 5 land on the board, would Keeper win more often?  Of course it would, and Timetwister has an effect similar to that scenario.

Just keep in mind that Timetwister never functions the same way in any two games.  It's very dependent on the circumstances, which was a problem up until 4 Brainstorms made it easy to switch it for another card.  Timetwister can also save you from situations no other card can save you from, not even Will or Balance.

As for when I would SB it in/out, I would probably only SB it out against sligh/Zoo (burn), and non-Rector combo.

[Fishhead]

Quote /Its good to Twister when you.../ c) Have an obviously superior board position.  ...  In /this/ most common case, it's being used like Armageddon was in White Weenie, to "seal" the game.  

Hopefully I didn't butcher Carls thought too much by editing it down to a manageable size, because I am going to disagree with it.  

Basically, this is the sort of Twistering that I think is very risky; the "positional" Twistering where you are assuming that your current permenant count and board position will translate into a superiority after the Twister.  This is a good gamble, 4 times out of 5 you will gain an even greater superiority after the Twister.  But all too frequently you'll draw a handful of land while your opponent draws a Balance and a Monkey of his own.  Suddenly your theoretical win didn't pan out due to the variance caused by drawing 7 new cards from scratch.  That's what I meant by "rolling the dice" - bad stuff can and does happen.  

In the long run, positional Twistering is a good gamble.  But, considering how explosive T1 decks are and how big a variance there is in drawing 1/9th of your deck, you may not get a long run for the odds to even out.  "Hmm, I drew no Duress or Mana Drain.  Hmm, you drew a Duress, a Ritual and a Necro. Hrm.  GG. "

-edit-
To me its almost a playstyle issue like Demonic Consultation.  Everyone generally recognizes that the Consult is worth the risk to run; it's going to f*ck you once a tournament, but it's also going to win you 3 games that same day.  Twister is a lot more subtle, and I am not sure you can quantify how dangerous Twisting is.  Other than to think back and remember how many times people on either side of the table throw down their hands and say "Yeah, I drew crap off the Twister."

[Jaapmans]

Hi. This is like my first actual post on strategy at TMD. I'm trying to say something sensible but as I'm not as experienced with T1 and Keeper as you guys, so please don't flame me if I just say nonsense. Just tell me why, it's a learning experience, isn't it?

Okay, on to my comments. For Balance and Timetwister, they're both sorceries and they can be fetched with Burning Wish. As B. and TT both don't cost to much and are circumstancial (sp?) too play one should be able to fetch them with the Wish and play them the same turn. I know the sideboard is pretty stuffed but other circumstancial cards can be placed in the SB as well.

Your comments?

[Eastman]

That's true, Jaapmans, and that is why the combo keeper decks run Balance and even Yawgmoth's Will in their sideboard to fetch with their Burning Wishes. The Paragon build uses Cunning Wishes,  which only fetch instants, so that really isn't an option here.

[Fever]

Trying to run both Cunning and Burning Wish leads to the total destruction of your sb, which is not a good thing. As Eastman mentioned, if you want to go the Burning route, try out The Shining(combo keeper) or even your own build, but dont try to include both Wishes.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Well, here are my thoughts about the current state of Keeper:

First off, my build is the same as Zherbus's only with these differences:

-1 Island
-1 Timetwister
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Wasteland
+1 Masticore
+1 StP
+1 Zuran Orb
+1 Skeletal Scrying
+1 City of brass

My reasoning for these changes are as follows...
-1 Island +1 City of Brass: I see NO non-basic hate, and even if I do, it's not in the form of bloodmoon, making this replacement almost a no-brainer.

-1 Timetwister, +1 Skeletal Scrying: Ok, here's my view of it(although I doubt ANYONE would care). It's a fine card to run, but there are better options (as many have said before). I think that the arguments made for twister are good, but here's something to think about: You have board advantage (more mana, wasteland, gorilla shaman)  and the opponent has 2 more cards than you...do you want to see a skeletal scrying and draw into 3+ cards, or do you want to risk it, play twister and hope he draws moxes/useless cards and you draw bombs? I know this doesn't always happen, but it happens enough that I don't like it. I use to be all about the twister, but now that trenches can win in 2 turns, I'm not sold on the twister at all...to me, the greatest benefit is the recursion.

-1 Gorilla Shaman, +1 Masticore: I play in an environment full of aggro, so this card carries it's weight AND THEN SOME. It's such a house, it's like abyss x 2 in many games. Plus, I believe 1 shaman is enough. There is already assloads of tutors/draw, that finding 1 shouldn't be TOO difficult.

-1 Wasteland, +1 Zuran orb: again, wastelands aren't that spectacular vs. aggro, where zuran orb has saved my ass PLENTY of times. Plus, 26 Mana sources + 4 Brainstorms is enough to make me happy with my mana base.

-1 Merchant scroll, +1 StP: I've never really liked the merchant scroll...maybe it's cause I topdeck my ancestral often, but I always seem to draw this AFTER I resolve my good blue instants...plus, I almost NEVER wanna be tapping out early during my turn to play this (ESPECIALLY wtih duress/cabal therapies running rampant)...meaning I'll only use it mid-late game, when a mystical tutor or brainstorm could have done the same thing, only faster.

As for my board, I have +1 Diabolic edict, -1 gush, for the simple fact that I've never had a hard time keeping an active library, don't see much land hate, and see people play morphlings all the time.


On a fianl note for timetwister, it is only good vs. discard/combo, wouldn't a skeletal scrying be better? Sure it doesn't recurse, BUT, the opponent gains nothing (life is HARDLY an issue), PLUS, you gain DEFINITE card advantage/board advantage. Also, it cycles in those shitty situations.

The comment about recursion hardly counts either (in my eyes), as the opponent might and will have just as much, if not more threats in his/her graveyard as you.

EDIT: GODDAMNIT!!!! that was post 420, I was hopin' I wouldn't miss it and start a big thread in the community forums, but oh well...sorry about the random-rant

[Kheoinn]

If you used Wasteland on their first three lands, how would you be ahead land drops, and have more mana on the table? Timetwister only serves to start the game over, save for all of the permanents your opponent got on the table before then, in that circumstance.

Timetwister, the way I see it, gives you the mana advantage only paired with other nonsymmetrical advantages such as Gorilla Shaman. Otherwise, your opponent will more often than not get to use the cards first. That is not a good idea in the current field, where most any deck has an abundance of draws that will win them the game before you get to untap again.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

What I meant was this: IF Keeper can keep the pressure on by wasting lands (often, keeper will drop lands more frequently than combo), why jeopordize them getting the lands back by twistering? If you have 4 lands and a mox monkey, and they only 2 lands, would you rather see a twister or a skeletal scrying?

On the same point, I see Twister as strongest vs. rector based decks (duh! using plenty of discard, many mana sources). What are the chances that you draw 1 of your wastes for every land they draw? Sure it may happen, but the odds are still against it. I agree though, that a gorilla shaman may make a twister more on-sided (same way as an abyss made it one-sided back in old days) than usual, but When you have board advantage and a shaman, you should be in pretty good shape, and in many case, another card drawer may be better.

[Dante]

Quote (Clown of Tresserhorn @ July 24 2003,20:51)What I meant was this: IF Keeper can keep the pressure on by wasting lands (often, keeper will drop lands more frequently than combo), why jeopordize them getting the lands back by twistering? If you have 4 lands and a mox monkey, and they only 2 lands, would you rather see a twister or a skeletal scrying?

On the same point, I see Twister as strongest vs. rector based decks (duh! using plenty of discard, many mana sources). What are the chances that you draw 1 of your wastes for every land they draw? Sure it may happen, but the odds are still against it. I agree though, that a gorilla shaman may make a twister more on-sided (same way as an abyss made it one-sided back in old days) than usual, but When you have board advantage and a shaman, you should be in pretty good shape, and in many case, another card drawer may be better.

..and I think that the people who run Timetwister wouldn't in your environment...I think Steve had a direct quote or something like that (about running Skeletal in other metagames).

Dante

[Zherbus]

Quote ...With 5 strip effects and 2 Shamans, wouldn't you rather leave them mana light? If your opponent has 5 cards in hand when you twist, it is likely that all 5 (or at least 4) are business spells, as they have already played out their moxen and their first few lands.  The entire point of your mana disruption is to have destroyed their ability to cast those business spells, leaving them with only 1 or 2 playable cards in hand. When you Twist you give them lands that they can use to rebuild their spent resources, this seems to defeat the purpose of destroying it in the first place.

Doesn't the disadvantage of giving them usable resources outweigh the miniscule advantage provided by the 1/3rd of an 'extra' card you will draw because you have 2 more permanents?

Keeper is a slower-than-death-control-deck. Decks that rely on disruption in the manner which you are presenting can with in 4 turns with a follow up Negator, while Keeper cannot.

Quote The highlighted sentence is the real issue at hand. Despite all our quibbling the most all of paragraph two quoted above will give you (statistically) is 1/2 a card. The sentence in bold (which is the source of Timetwister's playability) will give you 3.

The discussion of how Shaman enters into this is superflous, but for purposes of discussion it can be condensed down to a more simple explanation:

It is obviously advantageous to have more permanents in play and fewer cards in hand when you 'reset' with a Timetwister.
Whether you should play it or not depends how often you believe you will stand to gain.

Which goes back to my statement that you shouldn't play it if you aren't willing to take any risks (lopsided to your favor) or if you lack the skill to pull a successful Timetwister off. Just because *I* run something doesn't mean it is etched in stone that it belongs.

Quote -edit-
To me its almost a playstyle issue like Demonic Consultation.  Everyone generally recognizes that the Consult is worth the risk to run; it's going to f*ck you once a tournament, but it's also going to win you 3 games that same day.  Twister is a lot more subtle, and I am not sure you can quantify how dangerous Twisting is.  Other than to think back and remember how many times people on either side of the table throw down their hands and say "Yeah, I drew crap off the Twister."

Exactly, except I standby that a properly timed Timetwister will rarely bite you in the ass and other people disagree.

Quote On a fianl note for timetwister, it is only good vs. discard/combo, wouldn't a skeletal scrying be better? Sure it doesn't recurse, BUT, the opponent gains nothing (life is HARDLY an issue), PLUS, you gain DEFINITE card advantage/board advantage. Also, it cycles in those shitty situations.

Well, a few reasons and ultimately why Scrying was cut:

1. Skeletal Scrying is black, and that has really mattered in the current manabase. When looking to the fetchlands on which dual to fetch, the Shamans have complicated things game 1 because now you actually WANT to find Volcanics. If there was another black card worked in, it would likely be another Duress.

2. Skeletal Scrying is just a small bit slower. When it comes time to have 3+ cards to remove (you know, non- Ancestral, Time Walk, Lotus cards), you can easily just Wish for it.

3. Timetwister gives recursion. Running 1 solid win condition and burning through a Future Sight come to mind.

and the my favorite reason:

4. Starting the game over with more mana than your opponent is a good way to beat them. (After combo has depleted your hand, only to have to do it over again or forcing Hulk to re-establish its Intuition/AK engine.)

Quote -1 Merchant scroll, +1 StP: I've never really liked the merchant scroll...maybe it's cause I topdeck my ancestral often, but I always seem to draw this AFTER I resolve my good blue instants...plus, I almost NEVER wanna be tapping out early during my turn to play this (ESPECIALLY wtih duress/cabal therapies running rampant)...meaning I'll only use it mid-late game, when a mystical tutor or brainstorm could have done the same thing, only faster.

You don't want a Merchant Scroll versus combo, but you want the extra STP? Merchant Scroll would have been cut back in the days of GAT, but it gets Cunning Wish (and a Counterspell, Mystical, Brainstorm, or Ancestral) which is pretty much something I like to cast often.

Quote If you used Wasteland on their first three lands, how would you be ahead land drops, and have more mana on the table? Timetwister only serves to start the game over, save for all of the permanents your opponent got on the table before then, in that circumstance.

It was only an example to emphasis a point, not to be overly analyzed. Keeper is a land heavy deck, more so than much of the field, and can likely keep dropping land long after many decks.

Quote Timetwister, the way I see it, gives you the mana advantage only paired with other nonsymmetrical advantages such as Gorilla Shaman. Otherwise, your opponent will more often than not get to use the cards first. That is not a good idea in the current field, where most any deck has an abundance of draws that will win them the game before you get to untap again.

Would I be correct in saying that you basically said "Timetwister isn't very good without the other changes that have been made to Keeper combined with the possibility that you are a much worse player than your opponent"?

Quote What I meant was this: IF Keeper can keep the pressure on by wasting lands (often, keeper will drop lands more frequently than combo), why jeopordize them getting the lands back by twistering? If you have 4 lands and a mox monkey, and they only 2 lands, would you rather see a twister or a skeletal scrying?

That goes back to the issue that Keeper runs 1-2 win conditions and can only hold a superior mana position for so long before Keeper runs out of Strips and the other guy catches up. If Keeper suddenly ran 4 Negators, in addition to sucking ass, it wouldn't need Twister to 'seal' the lead when it could just deal 20 in 4 turns.

Good lord people, I don't know what else can be said about Timetwister. Should I edit the thread title to read Timetwisting 101? It's controversial because it is both risky and non-obvious in its advantage.

I would really like to touch on the other 74 cards, so if anyone has some comments that don't result in debating about Timetwister, I'd welcome it. If that is really that difficult, pretend Timetwister is really Skeletal Scrying so we can move past it as the issue has been disected fully and has been since JP made his 2 sentance post.

[Zharradan]

Quote (Zherbus @ July 25 2003,13:37)I would really like to touch on the other 74 cards, so if anyone has some comments that don't result in debating about Timetwister, I'd welcome it. If that is really that difficult, pretend Timetwister is really Skeletal Scrying so we can move past it as the issue has been disected fully and has been since JP made his 2 sentance post.

I could talk about Trenches if you like...  

Sorry, back to being serious. What made you pick the Coffin Purge over Ebony Charm? How often do you want to use the flashback to remove a second card (vs. something like TnT I guess) on a different turn than the one you first cast it? You mentioned in your first post that the ability to remove two cards can be useful, because it can do things like neuter AK's .. Ebony Charm will do the same thing, for one less mana.

[theorigamist]

Coffin Purge also stops Rectors.  Twice.  And removes itself from the game conveniently so you can Wish for it again if you need to.  Also, as has been said, it is "immune" to discard.  The only time you'll really need to remove several cards at a time is against TnT, but even then you can go for Squee and neuter their Survival, or Wish for Welder-kill.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

The issue of 1 StP in favor of a merchant scroll:

I ONLY see good combo decks in the top tables, meaning that I have to beat a whole slew of aggro decks to get there...This is a MAJOR reason why I run the StP, it makes me feel alot more comfortable against the aggro match...plus, I don't run merchant scroll because I hate tapping out early game. I know this is a silly reason when something as powerful as ancestral can be fetched, but I guess it's just playstyle. Also, How isn't StP good vs. Combo? The better combo decks use academy rector as the combo engine (atleast to get bargain), meaning StP has the potential to ruin it's day (assuming no therapy in yard).

Basically, for me, it's a matter of, Do I want to be better vs. the combo decks I rarely see? or, Do I want to beat the majority of people playing where I play.

[Zharradan]

Quote (theorigamist @ July 25 2003,18:56)removes itself from the game conveniently so you can Wish for it again if you need to.

Ah, this is a good point that I was overlooking.

Quote Also, as has been said, it is "immune" to discard.

This however, is not a very convincing point. I highly doubt that discard is relevant - you won't be accidentally drawing this card before you need it, since it is not in your maindeck. Sorcery speed discard is going to be irrelevant when you wish for it also, since you aren't going to do so until you need it.

Of course, it doesn't exactly hurt to be immune to discard "just in case" I guess.

Still, I'd like to hear from Zherbus (or anyone else that has played with the purge) how often they have actually needed to cast it using flashback.. or even flashback and then re-wish for it to cast a third (and maybe fourth) time.

[Eastman]

I'm a fan of the much more useful Krosan Reclamation in this slot. Of course, you'd need to run Green to enjoy that excellent and versatile wish target  

[Toast]

@zharradan

the problem is when the combo player uses a spell like duress and you think that they are going to take the wish...if you wish for an ebony charm they can still take it out of your hand, if you wish for the coffin purge then it does not matter if they make you dicard it. you can still accomplish your goal which is to stop rector from getting bargain.

[theorigamist]

Quote This however, is not a very convincing point. I highly doubt that discard is relevant - you won't be accidentally drawing this card before you need it, since it is not in your maindeck. Sorcery speed discard is going to be irrelevant when you wish for it also, since you aren't going to do so until you need it.

Well, Toast beat me to it.  Immune to discard does matter, because you Wish in response to Duress/Therapy to make sure you have an answer to the Rector that will inevitably come soon after.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Clown of Tresserhorn @ July 25 2003,07:58)Also, How isn't StP good vs. Combo? The better combo decks use academy rector as the combo engine (atleast to get bargain), meaning StP has the potential to ruin it's day (assuming no therapy in yard).

That's quite the assumption though.  

Keeper should definitely be siding out StP against Rectors.  Maybe you can keep one to tutor for if you have nothing better to side in, but it's definitely not a card you want to see much.  It's completely dead unless they resolved a Rector but have not drawn Therapy.  That's...how often?  I'd rather stop them from resolving Rector, which is much more useful and common than the other scenario.

Merchant Scroll is so much better in the match, if only because it's pitchable to FoW.  Otherwise, it gives you access to your best cards in the match.

[Eastman]

Merchant Scroll is also great because it can grab Stifle if for meta or SB reasons it is in your deck. It's definitely the more useful tool in this matchup.

[Zherbus]

Quote How isn't StP good vs. Combo? The better combo decks use academy rector as the combo engine (atleast to get bargain), meaning StP has the potential to ruin it's day (assuming no therapy in yard).

It's not good, it's not terrible-it's marginal. Against Rector combo, it is almost as good as 'counter target Rector' but is vulnerable to discard. Using Merchant Scroll to get Graveyard hate or to draw cards will be better in almost every situation barring the lack of mana to do so.

Quote Still, I'd like to hear from Zherbus (or anyone else that has played with the purge) how often they have actually needed to cast it using flashback.. or even flashback and then re-wish for it to cast a third (and maybe fourth) time.

It gets duressed and you don't care, you flash it back often enough that it is nice to have as a Wish target. In any given game, I'll use the ability at least twice. I've grabbed everything including Welder Targets, Squee and Anger, Accumilated Knowledge, Rector, and once a Lotus when a Yawgmoth's Will got brewing.

Updated list:

Disrupting Keeper
//  Counter Magic
     3 Duress
     4 Force of Will
     4 Mana Drain
//  Kill
     1 Goblin Trenches
     2 Gorilla Shaman
//  Broken Utility/Card Draw
     1 Time Walk
     1 Future Sight
     1 Fact or Fiction
     1 Ancestral Recall
     1 Yawgmoth's Will
     1 Timetwister
     1 Library of Alexandria
     1 Skeletal Scrying
//  Tutor/Search
     4 Brainstorm
     3 Cunning Wish
     1 Demonic Tutor
     1 Mystical Tutor
//  Bullet
     2 Swords to Plowshares
     1 Balance
     1 Mind Twist
//  SoLoMoxen
     1 Mox Jet
     1 Mox Pearl
     1 Mox Ruby
     1 Mox Sapphire
     1 Black Lotus
     1 Sol Ring
//  Land
     1 Strip Mine
     1 City of Brass
     4 Wasteland  
     3 Tundra
     3 Volcanic Island
     2 Flooded Strand
     2 Polluted Delta
     3 Underground Sea
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 The Abyss
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

StP has been working fine for me...not only does it improve my aggro-matchups, but it really doesn't hurt my combo matches either. With a merchant scroll, it does get you a wish, but it's at sorcery speed. With decks going off turn 3 or four, merchant scroll turn 3 for wish doesn't cut it for me. In anycase, you guys see more combo/powered decks than I do, so StP #3 wouldn't really cut it...for me, in a field heavy of aggro, and maybe 3 combo decks, one of which is powered, the third StP has been golden. Also, from what I have seen, people have played rectors many a times without a therapy in the yard...I dunno, maybe it's cuz there not great players, or because they are used to playing aggro, but it's definitely a plus for me. Much like the Timetwister argument, there are pro's and con's, but I will stick with StP #3 over the scroll because they have been working for me...

Another thing I would really like to know is how stifle has been working for you guys...I find it pretty useful vs. fetchlands, but that's about it...against combo, I usually get a coffin purge (and usually only see one wish early-midgame), against aggro, I get StP (obvious), and against control, it's a whole slew of options (scrying, REB, Shattering Pulse for moxes, Vamp Tutor for Library or FS, etc...). I kind of feel that Orim's chant might be a better option. Yes, it doesn't kill fetch lands, BUT, it does screw over tendrils decks pretty nicely. At worst, it's a MUST counter vs. Combo, and a Time walk vs. Aggro (assuming w/ Kicker). At it's best, it stops tendrils decks dead in it's tracks. Anyways, just a thought...

Also, I gotta say, I LOVE the trenches soooooooo much. Making 5+ tokens means game vs. so many decks, as you can tag-team monsters and then swing yourself for lethal damage. It's such a friggin' house! It's saved my ass so many times, whereas a morph would just sat there not doing jack diddly.

[PucktheCat]

Quote
Still, I'd like to hear from Zherbus (or anyone else that has played with the purge) how often they have actually needed to cast it using flashback.. or even flashback and then re-wish for it to cast a third (and maybe fourth) time.

Coffin Purge is way, way better than Ebony Charm against Rector decks.  The best thing about it is that once you have fetched it you have pretty much automatically dealt with either a Rector or a Force of Will from their hand with the flashback, plus either a discard spell or ANOTHER Rector before it reaches the graveyard.  For those of you who are counting, that is not only card advantage but extremely high quality card advantage, as they have to use some of the most important cards in their deck to handle a Purge (as opposed to your countermagic which they often knock out of your hand almost in passing with Therapies and Duresses).  Of course it sucks when they just hardcast the Bargain, but we can't have everything, can we?

Quote Quote (Clown of Tresserhorn @ July 25 2003,07:58)
Also, How isn't StP good vs. Combo? The better combo decks use academy rector as the combo engine (atleast to get bargain), meaning StP has the potential to ruin it's day (assuming no therapy in yard).


That's quite the assumption though.  

Keeper should definitely be siding out StP against Rectors.  Maybe you can keep one to tutor for if you have nothing better to side in, but it's definitely not a card you want to see much.  It's completely dead unless they resolved a Rector but have not drawn Therapy.  That's...how often?  I'd rather stop them from resolving Rector, which is much more useful and common than the other scenario.

While I agree that StP isn't great against Rector combos I think it is important to recognize that the having Swords, at least as a Wish target, is pretty important to Keeper right now.  There are a couple of things that make Keeper attractive right now when compared to Hulk Smash, and StP is definatly one of them.

I agree that plan A against Trix/Tendrils is stopping the Rector from resolving, but it is simply not going to happen every time - if Rectors didn't resolve fairly often we wouldn't be worried about these decks nearly as much as we are.  Since around %50 of opening hands won't have a Cabal Therapy it seems reasonable that around 1/3 of the time when a Rector resolves there won't be a Therapy in the grave.  While these may not be games where your plan is working the fact that Keeper can "steal" these wins is pretty important.

To put it in perspective I think if Carbonize cost 2 mana and did 2 damage (instead of 3 and 3) I would seriously consider it as a Wish target for combo-heavy metagames in control decks without white.

Leo

[Zherbus]

Quote Another thing I would really like to know is how stifle has been working for you guys...I find it pretty useful vs. fetchlands, but that's about it...against combo, I usually get a coffin purge (and usually only see one wish early-midgame), against aggro, I get StP (obvious), and against control, it's a whole slew of options (scrying, REB, Shattering Pulse for moxes, Vamp Tutor for Library or FS, etc...). I kind of feel that Orim's chant might be a better option.

I think Chant would be just fine, except for it is white and not as flexible. Since Stifle would be included for the same purpose, is easier to cast, and can at least trade 1 for 1 with many cards, I find it a better option.

Quote While I agree that StP isn't great against Rector combos I think it is important to recognize that the having Swords, at least as a Wish target, is pretty important to Keeper right now.  There are a couple of things that make Keeper attractive right now when compared to Hulk Smash, and StP is definatly one of them.

I agree that plan A against Trix/Tendrils is stopping the Rector from resolving, but it is simply not going to happen every time - if Rectors didn't resolve fairly often we wouldn't be worried about these decks nearly as much as we are.  Since around %50 of opening hands won't have a Cabal Therapy it seems reasonable that around 1/3 of the time when a Rector resolves there won't be a Therapy in the grave.  While these may not be games where your plan is working the fact that Keeper can "steal" these wins is pretty important.

Noone is saying Swords isn't a good card right now.

All I am saying is this: Take Cabal Therapy's flashback out for now and you still face the fact that you have 8 discard spells that will likely remove it from your hand. This makes it essentially as good as a counterspell that can only hit Rector. While counterspells are good, ones that will target any spell are better and counterspells that are duress proof are even better than that.

My point was to illustrate that Swords isn't 'good' against combo, but just 'ok'. It gets by in Rector* matchups, but not without some luck or misplaying on your opponents behalf. I just thought it was odd to cut a Tutor that fetches Cunning Wish (which gets Coffin Purge or Stifle) OR Ancestral. With the acceleration that Keeper has, a Merchant Scroll should have the card that you want in hand and ready to cast by turn 3. That's if you factor only 1 Mox or a Lotus, which would be enough to have a purge ready for protection, a stifle in hand at instant speed, or an Ancestral.

[PucktheCat]

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Noone is saying Swords isn't a good card right now.

All I am saying is this: Take Cabal Therapy's flashback out for now and you still face the fact that you have 8 discard spells that will likely remove it from your hand. This makes it essentially as good as a counterspell that can only hit Rector. While counterspells are good, ones that will target any spell are better and counterspells that are duress proof are even better than that.

My comment wasn't really directed at you, or anyone else to be honest.  I was just taking an opening in the conversation to insert an observation I have made while playing lots of Keeper and Hulk against Tendrils.

I have a question:  Has anyone here thought about adding a vanilla Counterspell as a wish target.  When testing I try to make a note of what spell I want to fetch with Wish when I don't have anything good to get.  The answer has been Counterspell a lot more than it has been Stifle in my experience.  I realize things like Counterspell and Misdirection were considered a lot back when Cunning Wish was a new addition and rejected, but back then you could be pretty confident that all the spells you couldn't let resolve would be either Red or Blue.  Now we have a deck with 6 non-Red or Blue spells that really are best kept of the board (4 Rector, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain).  There is a wishable answer to Rector in Coffin Purge, but it gives them another whack at your hand, which is never good.

My testing recently has been mostly against Rector-Tendrils, so I can't speak to any larger metagame concerns, but I think Counterspell is at least as solid a Wish target as Stifle right now.

Leo