Hulk

[Azhrei]

Carl had a pretty different sideboard and I've since decided to include Mind Twist in the main deck, but this is what the Paragons of Vintage used to win the World Championship.

//NAME: Hulk
SB:  1 Berserk
SB:  1 Artifact Mutation
SB:  2 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Plaguebearer
SB:  1 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Psychatog
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Lim-Dul's Vault
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Naturalize
SB:  1 Smother
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Psychatog
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        2 Intuition
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        2 Deep Analysis
        3 Cunning Wish
        3 Duress
        1 Mind Twist
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        2 Island
        3 Volcanic Island
        2 Tropical Island
        4 Underground Sea
        1 Flooded Strand
        4 Polluted Delta
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald

Oh, and it was Matt D'Avanzo's idea to include black in Venguer Masque, which took Shane Stoots to second place.

GO PARAGONS!

[PucktheCat]

A few quick questions.  The build looks good, as expected.

You obviously don't think mana denial is much good in this deck.  Explain you thinking on that if you would.

I have no doubt that this owns combo after sideboard with the Coffin Purges, but I wonder about first game.  In particular the Deep Analysis seem to be a step backward in the fight agianst early discard followed by X.  They will simply grab everything else in your hand and win before you can cast a 4cc sorcery.  Do you feel that you have a good first game against Rector decks?  Did you dismiss them due to their inconsistency or lack of presence in the anticipated metagame?  Or did you just rely on the SB to handle them?

What do you like the Mystical Tutor for in the early game?  Do you just 'cycle' by getting Ancestral (not that that is a bad play, necessarily, but it isn't broken)?

Oh, and what would you cut for Mind Twist?

Leo

[Azhrei]

Hulk can ignore the opponent almost entirely, so mana denial is not very important. You can also ignore Library of Alexandria because you beat turn one LoA nearly every time. I'd rather get to 4-5 mana and just win.

I dismiss the Rector decks because they CAN'T win games 2 or 3, and really don't have a strong match in game 1. Rector decks are not that good if you know how to beat combo (attack the setup, not the combo).

Mystical Tutor gets YawgWill, Ancestral, Intuition, Mind Twist, and sometimes Duress. It's great. It also helps protect against discard.

I cut a Merchant Scroll to include Mind Twist maindeck.

[PucktheCat]

Quote
I dismiss the Rector decks because they CAN'T win games 2 or 3, and really don't have a strong match in game 1. Rector decks are not that good if you know how to beat combo (attack the setup, not the combo).

I hear you on game 2 and 3, although I might add that it seems risky to me to say they CAN'T win 2 and 3 because they can do some very broken things before you can either Cunning Wish or Intuition.

Game one is a bit of a mystery to me, honestly.  I guess it is just too random for me.  One day they draw Duress, Therapy, Mox, Ritual, Rector every hand and wreck me, the next I play my same game and they can't seem to win a game no matter what I do.  This randomness was why I considered mana denial for the deck, because it pretty much guarantees they get screwed by their deck instead of merely hoping it does.  

Your strategy seems to be to accept the random loss if it happens and make your deck better against the rest of the field, is that fair?

I do have to say though that I am pretty sure some Hulk varient is the best deck right now, good work!

Leo

[Azhrei]

My strategy is mostly based on the fact that Rector is like Stompy: each deck wins or loses based on their first 9 cards. It's also about as good as Stompy was in its heyday.

I'm willing to accept the risk of them getting lucky once in a while game one because I feel completely confident in being able to beat it 2 in 3 games. My strategy is that with Hulk I can expect to do very well in any tournament, so random bad luck isn't a concern. Sometimes you just can't win, but it's not as if Hulk can't go broken right back at them... more often, and beyond the first 9 cards.

[MoreFling]

Why only 3 duress? Wouldn't you say it's one of the most important cards right now, and a key to success? I would always be happy to be able to duress first turn, to take away the most important threath your opponent might have.

[UnstableCornBread]

...I dismiss the Rector decks because they CAN'T win games 2 or 3, and really don't have a strong match in game 1. Rector decks are not that good if you know how to beat combo (attack the setup, not the combo)....

When I playtested this matchup with some of California's finest and we found game 1 almost impossible to win. Even if you can survive the initial barrage of hand denial from trix, it is still a very tough matchup imo. Even after sideboarding you are making it sound like a cake walk, when in reality it is still a uphill battle. Hulk cannot attack the rather fragile mana base that trix runs, so have to rely on preventing bargain from hitting the table, since once it does, thats game boys. And I believe 2 purges in the SB is not enough to do this

[Rakso]

Quote (PucktheCat @ July 27 2003,21:42)You obviously don't think mana denial is much good in this deck.  Explain you thinking on that if you would.

'Tog is a pretty fast win condition, and you'll notice the only time some kind of mana denial would've been nice was when the Dragon decks' Bazaar engine got going one game. And that match was won.

[CrazyCarl]

There isn't a need for mana denial in Hulk because, as Rakso said, your win condition is so fast it doesn't really matter what you're opponent is doing.

[Milton]

It's a good deck.  I got smashed by it in the T1 Worlds.  Second round, I think.   I played U/R Phid with four AK's and four Brainstorms and four Phids as my card drawing engine.  Anyway, I get rocked game one.  I couldn't find any Shaman or Wastelands and he was casting Deep Analysis and AK and he just rocked me.

Game 2 I resolve a second turn Bloodmoon (I had Force of Will back-up).  My opponent had one of his two islands in hand and that one island allowed him to do anything he needed to do (AK and Deep Analysis).  He gets his Mox Jet out quickly, then his Sapphire and throws out a Tog and rolls me by turn 10 or so.  All the while I couldn't find my Phids or Shaman or Brainstorms or AK's.  

I'd like to think that if he hadn't had one of his Islands I could have easily stablalized with a Phid and Shaman, but he played it right and rocked me.  Hulk's a great deck.  We were just banking on the four Wastes, Strip and three Shaman as being enough to disrupt it along with Bloodmoon and Red Blasts from the board.

[Fever]

Is there any particular reason you guys chose the second Island over a second Strand? In my experience, a lone basic is usually enough to counter Blood Moon or B2B, while an extra fetch can help smooth colored mana and increase Brainstorm's goodness. I realize none of this is news, but i just wondered what put the second basic over the top?

[Azhrei]

@ MoreFling: I prefer to use Mind Twist main over the fourth Duress, and I think that cutting down to 23 mana sources to fit the 4th Duress would be a mistake.

@ UnstableCornBread: Game one can be tough, but it's often not. Trix is like Stompy: sometimes it just can't lose, and sometimes it dies to its own crappiness. After boarding it's a cake, pie, and bread pudding walk in the park. Trix is not that good.

@ Milton: Who loses to Blood Moon anymore?  

@ Fever: Because I'd rather have almost zero vulnerablity to Blood Moon and Wasteland than have one extra thinning effect in a deck that normally draws somewhere around 20-30 extra cards in a game.

[Fishhead]

Quote There isn't a need for mana denial in Hulk because, as Rakso said, your win condition is so fast it doesn't really matter what you're opponent is doing.

Aren't you finding though that the LoA is increasingly critical to the mirror / control matchup?  Not every game, but certainly once a match the game will be decided by who can maintain a LoA.  

There's a small movement afoot here to deal with that by increasing the number of Wastelands in Hulk.  I'm not sure if it will fizzle (like the movement towards White as a 4th color did or be the wave of the future.  

Thoughts?

-edit-

Quote Trix is like Stompy: sometimes it just can't lose, and sometimes it dies to its own crappiness. After boarding it's a cake, pie, and bread pudding walk in the park. Trix is not that good.

It takes a bit of practice to get the hang of Trix.  If you are dying to "crappy" Trix hands, you dont have the hang of the deck.  Look at Van De Logt in Dulmen, he's consistent with a version that I consider too insanely aggressive for my skill level - but apparently not his.  

Anyway, Saucemaster said nearly the same thing you did about Trix when he had only 6 games under his belt with it.  But after playing it all day, he was a strong proponent that Hulk needed 3 Purges to deal.  

Of course, the thing is that Hulk easily has 3 SB slots that it can devote to anti-graveyard tech.  And with 2-3 Wishes it has a enough of shot to win Game 1 that it should generally take the match.  But Hulk is on the downside of the Game 1 matchup; the plan is to win Games 2 & 3.\n\n

[Saucemaster]

Quote Anyway, Saucemaster said nearly the same thing you did about Trix when he had only 6 games under his belt with it.  But after playing it all day, he was a strong proponent that Hulk needed 3 Purges to deal.  

I was saying that even with far more games under my belt, until I got savagely beaten by someone ELSE playing Trix... at which point I started taking it more seriously, and actually playtesting it heavily.  And then played it for hours and hours versus Phuong and UnstableCornBread testing the various SB strategies.  

Quote There isn't a need for mana denial in Hulk because, as Rakso said, your win condition is so fast it doesn't really matter what you're opponent is doing.

I agree with the gist of this: Hulk doesn't want a mana DENIAL strategy.  But I really, really want some sort of answer to Library of Alexandria, which is why I really can't see cutting the Strip Mine.  Maybe it's worth it to just accept that you lose to an early LoA, but I can't see it.  Plus, with Vamp in the board (or Lim-Dul's Vault, for those who prefer it), any of your three MD Cunning Wish can fetch the Strip in addition to Demonic, so the lone Strip isn't as random as it appears.  This:

Quote You can also ignore Library of Alexandria because you beat turn one LoA nearly every time. I'd rather get to 4-5 mana and just win.

... is what I just don't find borne out in any of my own testing (or others here, for that matter).  Or put it this way: it's not so much the first-turn LoA I'm worried about as it is the tutored-for LoA to which I have no answer besides starting counter wars I know I'll lose just to keep Library from going active.  Will Hulk win through an active LoA more often than any other control deck out there?  Absolutely.  Does it have a GOOD shot at ignoring Library?  Not in my testing.

This has most often been an issue, by the way, post-board in the mirror, when you're left with very little in the way of a draw engine (the AK's are gone unless you're willing to play very dangerous games hoping your opponent sided all of his out, leaving you with just a couple Deep Analysis) and it becomes a war of attrition where it's not uncommon for both players to have a decent grip but be holding back waiting for an advantage.  A Library in those circumstances is game-breaking.

Random other issues: until Stax and combo are well and truly hated out of our environment here, I play all four Duress maindeck and I haven't once regretted it.  Mind Twist is a house, and metagame considerations could easily make me move it to the maindeck (and very well may yet), but it wouldn't be in the stead of the fourth Duress, it would be in *addition* to it.  This may be personal preference and playstyle, but I can't think of a single matchup I've ever actually played where I didn't love an opening hand with Duress.

On maindeck Deep Analysis: I asked JP this in another thread, but I'll ask it again here (since I haven't heard you all talk about it yet): I understand the charms of Deep Analysis, when it's good, etc.  But in testing with it I hated--HATED--seeing it in my opening hand or drawing it in non-control, non-mirror matchups.  Four mana at sorcery speed is basically spending an entire turn drawing two cards when you could be doing so many other things, like keeping Drain mana open until you cast Intuition, etc.  If I can get a Tog on the table and pitch the DA to it, then it's great, but otherwise I'm stuck with it sitting in my hand until I've used up my other options.  Basically, in other words, barring Drain mana it's been a late-game card for me, and if I'm running a card that's usually late-game-only, I just feel like I want more oomph than DA gives.  

None of this is to say that I dislike Deep Analysis or think it's a bad choice; I just couldn't ever find something to cut that I thought was worth cutting for it.  Can you elaborate on the ways in which you think its benefits (synergy with Intuition and Tog, good in control matches, etc) make it maindeckable?  Did maindecking two Deep Analysis force you to change your playstyle at all to accomodate it?

[Azhrei]

Quote (Saucemaster @ July 28 2003,23:45)Does it have a GOOD shot at ignoring Library?  Not in my testing.

Can you elaborate on the ways in which you think its benefits (synergy with Intuition and Tog, good in control matches, etc) make it maindeckable?  Did maindecking two Deep Analysis force you to change your playstyle at all to accomodate it?

1) In my testing I never lost to an opponent's first turn LoA because it meant they couldn't Mana Drain on their second turn, so I won.

2) If you draw them too early you Brainstorm them away and then Intuition for them.

3) Yes, we won more so games were less stressful.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure I have the hang of Trix. Every version I have seen topdecks way too much to be very good.

[UnstableCornBread]

How does Hulk not be able to Mana Drain another Hulk player on turn two make you win.. Hulk doesnt tend to drop many threats in the early turns on the game UNLESS you are going crazy with a turn 2 Tog, which to me seems rather foolish. And you have never lost to a first turn Library in the mirror? If this is true, you are my new god, sorry Fishhead hes taking your spot over.

[Azhrei]

Well, to be fair, no Paragon in my immediate area has lost to a turn one LoA with Hulk, even in mirror matches. So if you must idolize someone, idolize the whole team.

The deck GOES crazy. Exactly right! If you don't have UU to win the counter-war over turn two Intuition, you're done for. Hulk, properly played, should always be playing a bunch of spells almost immediately. You can easily, easily overwhelm a Library and force them to use pitch-spells or just Duress them... either way, they have 5-6 cards now and you still drew 3... then 4... then you Cunning Wish for one Tog removed and AK for 4 again....

And that LoA has netted about 2-3 cards tops.

[UnstableCornBread]

Maybe I have been playing the mirror all wrong, but trying to "go off" vs the mirror seems a poor play decision. Turn 2 intuition for AK vs the mirror is stupid at best, even if you fetch 2 D.Anal which would be a better call, they are still sorcery speed.

So in the scenario of either having 2 D.Anal in the yard or an active library on the board, I think 99% of posters here would take the library position. It allows you to draw cards AND possibly counter if need be. Or it could just be different play styles from the 2 coasts

[Azhrei]

Hehehe, yeah, you don't go for AK in the mirror. But seriously, Hulk is proactive enough to be able to overwhelm LoA. In the mirror, if I had a great hand for that match, and LoA would maybe be my third or fourth land drop.

[PucktheCat]

Regarding mana-denial and so on: I understand that this deck can win a whole heck of a lot faster than keeper, but look at the rest of the format - this is still the slow deck, really.  Vengeur Masque is slower, but almost nothing else in the top 8 at gencon is investing any energy in a midgame.

on LoA:  In addition to the points Azhrei has been making I think this deck doesn't need to worry much about the Library because it runs much more discard than control deck have traditionally.

Oh, and regarding Deep Analysis, OMG is this card good.  I am not telling the Paragons here anything they didn't know but to anyone who was doubting it: this card is insanity.  In almost every matchup I think it is BETTER to Intuition for than AK.  The Sol Ring helps them immensely.  I feel like an idiot for not maindecking them on my own, afterall, it isn't like any deck in the format does damage in chunks smaller than 10.

Leo

Edit: Azhrei, what creatures in particular do you feel warrent the addition of Smother to the SB?  REB, BEB and Naturalize kill almost everything, and you have Fire/Ice too, just for odd stuff.

[hulk3rules]

Quote (Azhrei @ July 29 2003,00:35)Well, to be fair, no Paragon in my immediate area has lost to a turn one LoA with Hulk, even in mirror matches. So if you must idolize someone, idolize the whole team.

The deck GOES crazy. Exactly right! If you don't have UU to win the counter-war over turn two Intuition, you're done for. Hulk, properly played, should always be playing a bunch of spells almost immediately. You can easily, easily overwhelm a Library and force them to use pitch-spells or just Duress them... either way, they have 5-6 cards now and you still drew 3... then 4... then you Cunning Wish for one Tog removed and AK for 4 again....

And that LoA has netted about 2-3 cards tops.

I know for a fact that Carl lost a match due to a game 3 first turn LOA Friday at GenCon (not the world's.)  I'm not trying to denounce Carl at all, just pointing out that a first turn Loa can and will beat you sometimes

[Azhrei]

I live in Virginia. So nyaah!  

Just bear in mind that when I speak in absolutes, it's to save myself the time of reiterating "usually, often, mostly" etc.. LoA is USUALLY not a problem, so therefore it IS NOT a problem. It can be though.

Hulk isn't the slow deck. It's FASTEST is slower than many other deck's FASTEST, but it is almost never SLOWER either. I can count the times I've put a 6th land into play on one hand maybe.

The Smother is a bit of a play slot, but since I consider Mask/que and Stax to be the biggest threats it makes sense to me to have removal that hits Dreadnaughts and Welders and is hard to get color-screwed over.

[Saucemaster]

Quote 2) If you draw them [Deep Analysis] too early you Brainstorm them away and then Intuition for them.

Okay, to a certain degree this makes sense, but this strikes me as being somewhat like the "it pitches to Force of Will" argument people use to justify any blue card in a deck with Force of Will.  The first Intuition pretty much always goes for AK except in the mirror.  Hulk runs two Intuitions, and typically doesn't need to bother with the second after it plays the first.  So basically you're Intuitioning for DA (again, except against the mirror and possibly very slow control matchups) after you've used your first.  So again, Deep Analysis becomes a late-game card.  That leaves us with "I can Brainstorm it away", but that's true of anything.  That's an argument in favor of Brainstorm, however, not in favor of Deep Analysis.

Again, as I said before, obviously Deep Analysis is a solid card (it's a good blue draw spell, so of course it's strong), but I'm just not convinced that you wouldn't be better served by more early-game oriented cards (like the fourth Duress that you haven't squeezed in, for example), since once you get Intuition going you're already outdrawing just about every deck without a Bargain on the table.

I will admit to being intrigued by maindecking DA in expectation of the mirror, however.

[Eastman]

It seems like it'd be worth adding a small LD complement, ie Strip Mine + 1/2 Wasteland(s) to deal with LoA, Bazaar, and the currently unkillable Maze of Ith that I'm sure will be brought in as hate following this builds very public success.

[kirdape3]

Maze of Ith gets beaten one of two ways.  Mana Short off a Cunning Wish or by casting Time Walk.

Deep Analysis is basically an uncounterable (who in their right mind will counter the first end of an Analysis unless they need the Drain mana?) drawer.  In the mirror, it is the first Intuition target and is the same card advantage as an Ancestral but with 3 less life.

Quote So in the scenario of either having 2 D.Anal in the yard or an active library on the board, I think 99% of posters here would take the library position.

... And that's why the Paragons of Vintage are home to the World Champion.

[Saucemaster]

Quote Deep Analysis is basically an uncounterable (who in their right mind will counter the first end of an Analysis unless they need the Drain mana?) drawer.  In the mirror, it is the first Intuition target and is the same card advantage as an Ancestral but with 3 less life.

And the extra mana, and sorcery speed, not to mention the cost of Intuition.  But that's beside the point, as I agree that DA is amazing once it's in the grave.  I'm not so much worried about someone countering the front end of DA as I am worried about them kicking my ass into next week while I'm tapped out after casting it.  Basically, no one's yet really explained why Hulk needs a late-game card at the expense of a stronger early game except for the mirror match--where it's not really a late-game card anymore.

Let me rephrase it: Why isn't Deep Analysis just a win-more card, with the obvious exception of the mirror?  You already beat control silly, no need for help there.  It's almost always too slow against combo.  And you don't need it vs. Aggro, since drawing cards isn't the issue in Aggro matchups--the AK engine is already enough.  I'm honestly asking here!  I tested it for a little while and found it subpar, whereas the Paragons tested the hell out of it and found it to be very good, and kicked ass at Gencon with it.  I'm just wondering what in my experience with the card isn't lining up with all of yours.

[Fishhead]

Quote Hulk isn't the slow deck. It's FASTEST is slower than many other deck's FASTEST, but it is almost never SLOWER either. I can count the times I've put a 6th land into play on one hand maybe.

But we're talking about the mirror where the opponents deck is just as FASTEST and BESTEST as YOURs.  Because it's the same deck. :-/

You aren't seriously suggesting that you just go Aggro against a first turn LoA in the mirror are you?  You aren't getting a 6 turn kill when your opponent is going to counter your Berserk and your Intuition while drawing enough cards to make his own 'Tog huge.  

In any case, I was aiming that question at Carl; I'd be curious for his feedback.

[kirdape3]

The mirror is the most important matchup, since Hulk pounds most every other deck with the exception of perhaps Stax and Mask/que.

The only matchup where I can see Deep Analysis being less than an extremely sexy bitch is in fact combo.  And there the rest of the deck can either goldfish-race the combo or react like a normal control deck and counter things.

Drawing cards is the whole purpose of the deck.  Even against aggro, that's all you want to be doing since you won't 1) find a Tog without it (unless you want to burn 2 of the 3 from an Intuition) or 2) be able to smash through the opponent the turn after the Tog hits.

[UnstableCornBread]

On the whole Maze of Ith subject, all the decklists I have seen do not run Mana Short in the board so that answer is unacceptable. Thus you get around by either stripping it away, which can be found by Dt or one of the many draw spells. Or casting Time Walk and going lethal two turns in a row, which is not the best answer.

So what I am trying to say, is that your answer for this threat is frankly subpar. Its like saying I am going to beat Sligh because I run 1 Fire/Ice

And the entire I can Brainstorm it away arguement is silly, as well as the We are home to the T1 champion regarding D.Anal. You seem to think your way is the correct way no matter what reason, or anyone who is not part of the clique thinks for that matter. I am not trying to start a little war over this, but adding in little comments like that is uncalled for sir.

[Zherbus]

My experience is that Deep Anal is more of a leisurely draw spell, where as LoA costs you tempo and forces you to play around the hand size. That's not to say that LoA is at all bad, but with Hulks insane aspect of redundant (and resiliant to Misdirection and Duress) card drawing, it's almost as LoA is there for a lack of anything better.