Hulk

[walking dude]

DA is also insurance against suicide black, even though you should beat them they can sometimes just go duress hymn hippie and wreck your hand. Being able to draw cards with nothing in hand wins you games that you might otherwise randomly lose. So its not just late game.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (UnstableCornBread @ July 29 2003,02:20)On the whole Maze of Ith subject, all the decklists I have seen do not run Mana Short in the board so that answer is unacceptable. Thus you get around by either stripping it away, which can be found by Dt or one of the many draw spells. Or casting Time Walk and going lethal two turns in a row, which is not the best answer.

So what I am trying to say, is that your answer for this threat is frankly subpar. Its like saying I am going to beat Sligh because I run 1 Fire/Ice

And if you're not running Mana Short, there's also still Fire/Ice in the SB.

The Time Walk play really is the best one because it does not require a slot.  The point is not to pump Tog to 20, get it Mazed, and then Walk and try to draw another 10 cards.  The point is to attack for a couple points (three is good since just with the card you draw each turn you can do 2.5 damage) and see if they bite.  Just enough so that you have a clock, but not enough so that you'll get wrecked by removing too much.

[Darkh0rse]

Deffinately can not argue with results but I still dont understand the lack of Future Sight in the deck.  It provides the deck with two "I win" cards against any deck (Yawgmoth's Will being the other).  Playing in the T1 Champs I never had a problem with the triple blue requirement of the card and its interaction with the large number of shuffling effects as well as Brainstorm seems amazing IMO.

-Alex

[Chen]

At first I tried running Future Sight in Hulk, but it seemed just too slow. Also while it is card advantage, it doesnt put cards into your hand (directly) which doesnt help pump the Tog. Finally, what would you remove to fit in a future sight that isnt already a draw/manipulation spell?

[Zharradan]

I have a question for Carl: What made you pick Lim-Dul's Vault in the side, over Vampiric Tutor? .. and I mean beyond "vault is good"   I'm interested in which particular scenarios arose during testing that showed Vault was the right choice.

[David Hernandez]

re: future sight, it seems to me that you would have to restructure the deck.  You would probalby want to play with Fastbond to make it work properly, and my bet is that you would end up with The Shining.

dave

[Darkh0rse]

My listing is a little different but not by very much to use the future sight.  There really isnt that much retooling that had to be done overall.  My list is only off from the paragon list by basically:

-2 Deep Analysis
-1 Sol Ring

+ 1 Fact or Fiction
+ 1 Future Sight
+ 1 Island

Granted I didnt top 8 with my list (managed only 6-2) but a big part of that was due to mistakes on my part and not a problem with the deck.

Alex

[SliverKing]

DarkH0rse... are you the arm-wrestling player?

1 Fact or Fiction >  1 Deep Analysis.
1 Future Sight    >  1 Deep Analysis.

2 Deep Analysis in a deck with 2 intuition is awesome though.  It also was our mirror-tech when we found out that only mirrors were consistently giving us problems.
The extra difficulty in stopping analysis is what pushed it over the top for me at least.  2 counterspells to stop draw-2 effects? Go ahead and counter them.   you'll run out of countermagic before Irun out of draw spells... those same counters on future sight or fact or fiction are a much larger problem. The point is reducancy, resiliance...  even if the 1 for 1 power level is lower.
Hymn to tourach? duress? hypnotic SPecter?   sure. go ahead, I'm still getting my card engine going.

To jump in on the Lim-Dul's Vault question... it is most frequently wished for when you're looking to break a game open (yawg-will).   Since this is a mid-late game card the extra blue mana doesnt hurt the spell, and getting to set up the cards AROUND the will can result in greater brokenness. Plus you never know when you'll find the random broken pile on your way to Will.  The life cost difference has yet to be an issue in ANY playtest game. Nor has the mana cost.

[Darkh0rse]

yep no1 took me up on the arm wrestling though

I like the idea of the Deep's but felt that the overall powerlevel of fact and futuresight couldnt be ignored.  I will deffinately try with the deeps instead of those two it is quite possible that my initial oppinion is wrong.

One thing I did mess up in my deck construction was the inclusion of Strip Mine.  The card was worse than playing an off color mox and would probably be better as a Sol Ring in the deck.


Alex

[Dante]

Quote (Darkh0rse @ July 29 2003,12:41)yep no1 took me up on the arm wrestling though

I like the idea of the Deep's but felt that the overall powerlevel of fact and futuresight couldnt be ignored.  I will deffinately try with the deeps instead of those two it is quite possible that my initial oppinion is wrong.

One thing I did mess up in my deck construction was the inclusion of Strip Mine.  The card was worse than playing an off color mox and would probably be better as a Sol Ring in the deck.


Alex

I tested 20 pre-sideboarded games Hulk vs. Paragon Keeper (5 strip/2shaman version) to test the mana base (strip or no strip) and Deep Analysis vs control decks (to see if I thought they would have been better as FoF/Gush) and whether Mind Twist should be maindecked.  We have a lot of Keeper-ish decks by me lately.  (note, the DAs would be sided out for REBs post sideboard, so sided games are kind of irrelevant with regards to DA).

Some observations:

in many games, the Keeper player would get a Shaman and use 1-2 strips and LOOK like they had control, but with the better draw engine, Hulk just came back, a lot, even using Mox and Lotus as 1-shot mana sources.  Out of the 20 games, there were only 2 that were lost due to mana denial, and one of them the Hulk deck mulliganed to 4 (any deck generally loses when it mulligans to 4, so I don't count that game).  So 1 game out of 20, resource denial wins.

the mana base I used was 7 SoLoMo, 5 Fetch, 2 Island, 4 Underground, 3 Volc, 2 Trop, 1 LOA.  Hulk never needed a strip mine, despite, several early Keeper LOAs.  Between the Duress and countering, they never had a full hand to get more than 1, maybe 2 cards.  The two islands made wastes easier.  (Alex, the sol ring is great, use it.  early intuitions are your friend).  the only real mana issues were once I was wasted out of black (the one game Hulk lost due to resource denial) and one very long game that involved needing the mox emerald for Berserk.

Mind Twist was excellent.  Using some other spells as counter bait, whoever Mind Twisted, usually won. this was almost always a "I win" or "I was getting my ass kicked, now things are even" card for Hulk.  Even if you just used the Mindtwist to equalize (i.e. the Keeper player had a card-in-hand advantage), the Hulk player topdecks better (duh - better draw, plus less land) and usually won.

Rarely did I want either of the Deep Anals to be FoF or Gush.  Maybe once or twice in the twenty games.  All the other times I saw them, I was generally glad they were DAs.

So if you expect to see a bunch of Keeper-ish control decks (and Hulk mirrors obviously), here's some outside (i.e. non-Paragon) testing that agrees with their "inside" testing.  Then again, I wasn't really expecting anything different since 7+ people testing for 3 months is going to be more thorough than 2 people for one night, but think of it as an outside, third-party audit.  And I usually have to see results for myself (as most people should)...


Dante

[DigDug]

Quote Paragons and associates went 44-3-4 against nonteammates

I think a 90% win percentage is awesome.  Congratulations to the whole team.  (And everyone else who did well.)

SliverKing, that's a very intriguing statement about Deep Analysis, Future Sight, and Fact or Fiction.  As much as I like Future Sight, I got to try that out in my Oath deck.

On to the topic at hand, why has Gush been taken out of Hulk?  If it's so you can run two Deep Analyses, why doesn't it take the place of one of the Brainstorms?

[Dante]

Quote (DigDug @ July 29 2003,13:20)

Quote Paragons and associates went 44-3-4 against nonteammates

I think a 90% win percentage is awesome.  Congratulations to the whole team.  (And everyone else who did well.)

SliverKing, that's a very intriguing statement about Deep Analysis, Future Sight, and Fact or Fiction.  As much as I like Future Sight, I got to try that out in my Oath deck.

On to the topic at hand, why has Gush been taken out of Hulk?  If it's so you can run two Deep Analyses, why doesn't it take the place of one of the Brainstorms?

The brainstorms serve different functions:

With so many duress floating around, they hide your good cards.

They allow you to get mana, not pull the ones you have back to your hand.  Basically they allow you to develop your early game instead of stunt your growth.  

Also, Hulk isn't aggro-control like GAT was with the Dryads.  Gush made dryads a bigger permanent threat (and plus there were 2-4 more pitch counters making open mana less of an issue).  

But if you don't see control/mirros, run Gush.

Dante

[Saucemaster]

Quote But if you don't see control/mirro[r]s, run Gush.

I should mention that I still run Gush, though it's always hanging by a thread; every time I'm about to cut it, it steals me a game I had no right winning against Aggro or allows me to take advantage of a very small window of opportunity against control.  But I completely understand people cutting it, especially if they're worrying about control matches.  You should NEVER replace a Brainstorm with it, however.  Dropping to three Brainstorms has subtle but (I think) profound effects that you'll only notice through alot of testing.  The deck can run on three, but it definitely wants four, particularly with most of the decks that can give you a run for your money running Duress, the mirror not least of these.  I understand cutting Gush, even though it's still (barely) making my maindeck.

So on more general issues: I'll give up the DA argument for a bit, since the general idea seems to be that it's in the deck for the sake of the mirror and some control matchups, and I agree that it's good there.  So I'll let that one rest.

I have a more general question, though.  In discussing the deck, and the mirror in particular, a couple weeks ago, I remarked that the more I played the mirror the more I decided that--unlike the GAT mirror, where the key was to be the aggressive deck if at all possible--being the control deck was actually your goal.  Azhrei, on the other hand, seemed earlier to be implying the opposite.  What's the consensus of the people who've been playing the mirror alot?  Keep in mind that I'm specifically talking post-board here, as game one is actually an entirely different animal most of the time.

[walking dude]

Dante,

If I misread your post correct me, but it sounded like you were siding out DAs v keeper. My experience has been that that’s one of the matches where I most want them.

With DA you will outdraw keeper and eventually win. With 2 rebs who knows. The fact is that some of the most broken cards in the deck twist and will can't be red blasted. Sometimes they will just drop trenches and kill you and red blast can't stop that. At its best reb goes one for 1. What DA does is turn your intuitions into must counters forcing keeper to either tap out or pitch and waste counters without removing the actual card drawing from your deck so you can still draw it late game. Then when you do draw DA late game they need to counter it twice or you get 4 for 1. I think that if you try it, you'll find that DAs do more for you than red blasts do.

[PucktheCat]

In my opinion DA is what makes this deck right now.  It is just nuts in a format where everyone is running Duress and Force of Will and no one is doing damage before they win the game.

Do the card advantage math on this people: Intuition for AK = 2 card advantage for 5 mana, Intuition for DA = 2 card advantage for 5 mana + another DA in your hand.

This card is what makes me wrong about mana denial too.  Mana denial is what you do to force through little spells here and there that put you ahead.  This deck just runs fast mana instead and blugeons head-on into whatever they have.  Your spells are just better than theirs, so why not?

This deck reminds me of Black Summer-style Necro more than any other I have played in a long time.  I don't say that because of DA's life loss, although that is part of it, I say it because it is the first deck I have played since that time that really felt like mana was its limiting factor during its midgame.  Those of you who played Necro much will remember how important dropping a land every turn under Necro was and how much the deck loved to Ritual out random stuff just becuase it needed the mana more than the cards.  The same is true of this deck when it is rolling.  I find myself Force of Willing when I have five mana available with this deck just because I have a Brainstorm and an Intuition to play at end of turn and I know the card advantage will come back to me faster if I just play them and pitch the extra Psychatog.

Leo

[Andreas]

Just a probably stupid question:

If you play an early Intuition against control or in the mirror and manage to resolve it, what third card do you usually get to go with the two Deep Analysis?

[Zherbus]

Moved.

[SliverKing]

Quote (Andreas @ July 30 2003,05:42)If you play an early Intuition against control or in the mirror and manage to resolve it, what third card do you usually get to go with the two Deep Analysis?

When I'm intuitioning in the mirror I usually go for DURESS along with the 2 deep analysis. that gives them the unenviable choice of "let him draw 6" or "Let him duress and then draw 4"

against control the duress plan works well, or you could sub in merchant scroll... which they KNOW equals ancestral (without actually losing the ancestral)

[theorigamist]

You'd go for Duress?  I would think Mystical Tutor/Demonic Tutor is the best third choice.  In the same way Merchant Scroll = Ancestral, you could probably assume that Mystical/Demonic fetches Mind Twist, which is more dangerous against control than Duress.  So they are almost forced to give you a Deep Analysis, and thus six cards, and you don't lose the actual Mind Twist.

[SliverKing]

THe thing with Duress is the mana cost compared to a tutor effect.  The tempo advantage is what you're goign for.  Kill your hand, draw cards for cheap...     you'll draw more broken spells... and with the duress you've ensured he isnt going to do anything to stop you (if he had countermagic he'd have stopped the intuition).
With the Tog, and this is something I'm STILL working on,  playing aggresively is key.  If you try to play it like Keeper (gaining control and eventually winning) you're missing out on the decks real power.  It hink thats why a lot of people didnt have Hulk decks work very well... its not a very good control deck; it has few answers (counter spells + wishes).

[Dante]

Quote (SliverKing @ July 30 2003,09:30)THe thing with Duress is the mana cost compared to a tutor effect.  The tempo advantage is what you're goign for.  Kill your hand, draw cards for cheap...     you'll draw more broken spells... and with the duress you've ensured he isnt going to do anything to stop you (if he had countermagic he'd have stopped the intuition).
With the Tog, and this is something I'm STILL working on,  playing aggresively is key.  If you try to play it like Keeper (gaining control and eventually winning) you're missing out on the decks real power.  It hink thats why a lot of people didnt have Hulk decks work very well... its not a very good control deck; it has few answers (counter spells + wishes).

In addition, mystical and demonic both fetch Yag Win, which in this deck, a mid-game Yag Will really is "I Win".  Since you were asking about the first Intuition, you probably don't have a graveyard yet.  You don't want to let them get rid of a definite way to get Yag Will, whereas Merchant Scroll can "only" fetch Ancestral.  Plus the tempo issue that SliverKing mentioned.

Dante

[jpmeyer]

Quote (PucktheCat @ July 30 2003,00:58)This deck reminds me of Black Summer-style Necro more than any other I have played in a long time.  I don't say that because of DA's life loss, although that is part of it, I say it because it is the first deck I have played since that time that really felt like mana was its limiting factor during its midgame.  Those of you who played Necro much will remember how important dropping a land every turn under Necro was and how much the deck loved to Ritual out random stuff just becuase it needed the mana more than the cards.  The same is true of this deck when it is rolling.  I find myself Force of Willing when I have five mana available with this deck just because I have a Brainstorm and an Intuition to play at end of turn and I know the card advantage will come back to me faster if I just play them and pitch the extra Psychatog.

Ooh, I'm glad that someone thinks that way.  The most influential deck to me in terms of my deckbuilding has always been Laurpotence, which showed everyone the importance of mana efficiency in a deck that is expecting to draw multiple cards per turn.  (I also think think that Laurpotence is the single best deck of all time in tems of utilizing the power available in such a focused, nontraditional manner.)

[PucktheCat]

Quote

Quote  (PucktheCat @ July 30 2003,00:58)
This deck reminds me of Black Summer-style Necro more than any other I have played in a long time.  I don't say that because of DA's life loss, although that is part of it, I say it because it is the first deck I have played since that time that really felt like mana was its limiting factor during its midgame.  Those of you who played Necro much will remember how important dropping a land every turn under Necro was and how much the deck loved to Ritual out random stuff just becuase it needed the mana more than the cards.  The same is true of this deck when it is rolling.  I find myself Force of Willing when I have five mana available with this deck just because I have a Brainstorm and an Intuition to play at end of turn and I know the card advantage will come back to me faster if I just play them and pitch the extra Psychatog.

Ooh, I'm glad that someone thinks that way.  The most influential deck to me in terms of my deckbuilding has always been Laurpotence, which showed everyone the importance of mana efficiency in a deck that is expecting to draw multiple cards per turn.  (I also think think that Laurpotence is the single best deck of all time in tems of utilizing the power available in such a focused, nontraditional manner.)

Heh heh.  I love the fact that I was thinking exactly of Laurpotence when I wrote that post.  Just goes to show that the magic community, like every other intellectual community, speaks a language that can be traced back to a few pivitol ideas.

Seriously though, I liked this deck before I put Deep Analysis main, but I love it now.  I am not sure it has much to do with how good it is in the format, I just love the playstyle.

Leo

[Darkh0rse]

In what matchups do the deeps get sideboarded out?  Are they considered too slow versus Agro and Combo?
I would also be interested to see how much the loss of a psychatog affects the matchups versus random Agro decks.


Alex

[SliverKing]

non-discard-based aggro you take the deeps out. So Sligh or TNT.  Those decks cant stop your AK's. and the loss of life might actually matter.


Against anything else, they are golden.  Against control you can treat them as very expensive duress's.  Counter it, dont counter it, doesnt matter. it did its job; either drew me cards or drew out 2 counterspells for 1 card.  It puts you over critical mass on card drawer's.  Without a library or active phid they cant keep up (even with an active library or phid they will have big problems).
Any good combo runs either countermagic, discard, or both. so the Deep Analysis is great in those matchups as well.

[Dante]

Quote (SliverKing @ July 31 2003,13:11)non-discard-based aggro you take the deeps out. So Sligh or TNT.  Those decks cant stop your AK's. and the loss of life might actually matter.


Against anything else, they are golden.  Against control you can treat them as very expensive duress's.  Counter it, dont counter it, doesnt matter. it did its job; either drew me cards or drew out 2 counterspells for 1 card.  It puts you over critical mass on card drawer's.  Without a library or active phid they cant keep up (even with an active library or phid they will have big problems).
Any good combo runs either countermagic, discard, or both. so the Deep Analysis is great in those matchups as well.

Would you keep them in via Suicide?  The only discard that would possibly hit them would be Hymn (they're not going to choose it with duress unless that's the only choice)...

How would you side against Suicide then?

Dante

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Dante @ July 31 2003,14:16)Would you keep them in via Suicide?  The only discard that would possibly hit them would be Hymn (they're not going to choose it with duress unless that's the only choice)...

Don't forget Hypnotic Specter.

And if their Duress nails your non-DA draw, then their Hymns and Specters are more likely to nail the DA.

[Dante]

Quote (Rico Suave @ July 31 2003,13:19)

Quote (Dante @ July 31 2003,14:16)Would you keep them in via Suicide?  The only discard that would possibly hit them would be Hymn (they're not going to choose it with duress unless that's the only choice)...

Don't forget Hypnotic Specter.

And if their Duress nails your non-DA draw, then their Hymns and Specters are more likely to nail the DA.

I haven't tested this matchup, but off the top of my head it seems 2 Deed would be better than 2 DA.

Someone who's tested this post sideboard, what have you guys found?

Dante

[Rico Suave]

While you guys are at it, just out of curiosity, how exactly would you board against somebody playing RectorTendrils?  

I know some people have recommend taking out Cunning Wishes for Coffin Purges and what-not, but I wasn't exactly sure.

[Jamino]

Hey guys,
After reading and re-reading this topic and all its posts im still sumewut puzzeled. I dont know about you and all but I would definately try to fit in a Fact or Fiction before I play any Deep Anals. what exactly is the logic behind this?
Also, why take out gush? Seems to me with the more wastelands making theyre way into decks you can use a protector that at the same time pumps your togy up +6+6?
Other then that im really liking the ways Hulk is developing and the mana base im playing right now is absolutely heavenly I have been trying on and off cutting a land and I have been pleasantly surprised that the deck doesnt seem to miss it much. However this is still being tested and ill let you know more about it in a few days.
Arent you guys having some problemes with Stax and company? Seems to me with it increasing in popularity and power we should try to bepacking some more hate? Most of us splash red and for what REB. Granted these are golden but we might as well make bigger use of our 4th colour, Shamans anyone? How about Rack and Ruins? Just some food for thought.

@Rico,
Generally siding out Cunnings and siding in Coffin purges is what ive been doing, but right now im testing some other way to deal with RectalTrix and Tendrils. Ill let you know how it does.