WELDER MUD

[Smmenen]

When I was testing Mono Brown MUD, the first change I made was to insert two Trisks maindeck.  The primary reason was a fear of TnT.  I actually changed back very quickly to the original build.  I felt like any change I made without fully understanding how the original deck operated would be invalid.  

The problem with Trisk in Welder MUD is that the deck is so incredibly tight - far moreso than straight MUD.  We have already slimmed down to two Karn, I am not really sure there is anything to Cut for Trisks.  I am still trying to find room for the 3rd City of Traitors.  Moreover, having Welders maindeck partially "solves" the Welder Problem.  I am curious, can we see decklists folks?  

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Zhalfirin]

I understand the decklist is tight.  As my tourney report pointed out, I cut the City of Traitors to fit in 2 Triskelions.  Call me crazy, but the deck is working for me.  I may use the 5 strip effects more as mana sources than other people would, but stripping a land a turn later has been fine for me.  28 mana sources seems too high.  26, plus 4 metalworker, seems strong enough.

That's my $0.02

[Sauron]

Is anyone really surprised by this deck? I've had a copy built since July, since it won a Type I at www.cartamagica.com

I like all the artifact decks in Type I and really liked MUD's 5 Strips (+Field) and WOrb, the only thing I really wanted to do to the deck was add Welders, as soon as I saw someone had done so and succeeded I built it up.

My list is almost exactly the same, barring a few minor differences (I'll list them later when I have more time), all I will mention is that I prefer 3 sac lands over the last 3 Mountains to simulate a 'lower' non-broken lands count.

[Saucemaster]

Quote all I will mention is that I prefer 3 sac lands over the last 3 Mountains to simulate a 'lower' non-broken lands count.

We talked about this briefly in building the deck.  If you've never read the Brainburst article from a while back on the math of fetchlands, you should.  Basically, using three fetchlands (I assume that's what you mean by "sac lands") instead of three Mountains makes almost ZERO difference to your draws, and it costs you life.    It's not worth it.

[Toast]

This looks like a very solid deck and I would have to buy maybe 30 dollars worth of cards to make it real. I also have screwed around with stax enough that I should have little trouble playing it properly.Therefore there is no reason for me not to try it...one question I have for you guys is... what you are running in your SBs?

I would assume that Null brooch and Triskellion are fairly standard choices...for the remainder is it just things like REB, Pyrostatic Pillar and Fire/Ice or is there too few red sources for that? I could also see more copies of certain spells being a viable strategy e.g. 2 Worb, 1 Keg, Karn...etc. Maybe even some petrified fields in there.

[Toad]

You can support at least 4 additional red cards with the 7 Mountains, so yes, REB, Pyrostatic Pillar or Fire/Ice are potential SB choices. REB is nice but has a bad synergy with the Grafted Skullcaps, meaning you won't stop Energy Flux with that easily for example. That's why the only answer I have against hate is Null Brooch. I'd say you should really pack at least 2 of those in your sideboard.

Potential sideboard choices are (depending on your metagame) : Fire/Ice, Rack and Ruin, Tormod's Crypt, Pyrostatic Pillar, Jester's Cap, Ensnaring Bridge, Triskelion, Blood Moon, etc... and/or additionnal lock components (Powder Keg, Winter Orb).

[Tindemans]

to add to the potential sideboard choices:
crumbling sanctuary can very well be a game win against sligh,
defense grid if you have a lot of mono blue.
cursed scrolls and cursed scrolls can be inserted against TnT.

[MoreFling]

How about The Rack for the ever cool Mirror Match?  

[Tindemans]

you know I killed Thug like 6 months ago when he played WelderMud (yes 6 months ago), with Mud with 3 SB racks. however it is too slim a chance to have a rack in play, at the same time other player has a skullcap. I had luck that time.

[Hyperion]

I don't want to hijack this discussion by just responding to the above post made by wuaffiliate, so I will post some relevant questions immediately following. However, there was one point in particular I wanted to address first.

Quote  came to realization that its a VERY good match, although im not the best MUD player i took about 12 of 15 games un boarded, and i took 3 of 5 boarded i believe. just a good thing to know matchup wise.  spheres are the key in that match.

The odds of resolving a first-turn Sphere (assuming the MUD player would always have 2+ mana on turn 1, which is a fair assumption) without additional ways to draw into it are about 40-45%, depending on who goes first, and you were dropping first-turn Spheres at almost twice that rate (that's Apprentice for you, I guess). Considering that it singlehandedly stole several games from me that I had an otherwise decent shot at winning, that is a significant deviation from the norm and is at least partially responsible for the skewed results considering Sphere's importance against combo decks and fast aggressive decks that can drop lots of permanents quickly.

With that said, after reading the front-page article and seeing the deck in action myself, it did strike home to me just how much of a boost that Metalworker, Powder Keg, and Wasteland give Welder MUD, and how important they can be against aggressive decks. I have recorded even-to-favorable results in testing against Stax but the added disruption of MUD makes a noticeable difference in the matchup difficulty.

I did notice an earlier comment on this thread:

Quote One obvious question is: why not blue?...The sad answer is that these cards add almost nothing to the deck.  MUD is, by its very nature, very redundant relative to stax.  These cards are nice boosts, but after testing, the group decided they weren't needed.

While the advantages inherent in MUD over Stax were presented clearly in the main-page article, I would be interested in hearing from those that have developed the deck what they feel its major weaknesses are compared to Stax. Surely there are some matchups where the added potential explosiveness Stax can provide is important (I realize MUD is also potentially more explosive as well with an early Metalworker, but in a different manner). Which matchups are more difficult from the MUD players' perspective, relative to Stax?\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

it is true than i drew it alot and cast it often turn 1-2, but i also mulled into it once or twice. ive used the practice of mulling into a first/2nd turn sphere quite abit vs combo also.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (Hyperion @ Aug. 23 2003,17:32)While the advantages inherent in MUD over Stax were presented clearly in the main-page article, I would be interested in hearing from those that have developed the deck what they feel its major weaknesses are compared to Stax. Surely there are some matchups where the added potential explosiveness Stax can provide is important (I realize MUD is also potentially more explosive as well with an early Metalworker, but in a different manner). Which matchups are more difficult from the MUD players' perspective, relative to Stax?

Having helped develop, test, tune both decks, I can say that the draw engine is weaker in MUD.  The deck, over all, is far more vulnerable to Hurkyl's Recall relative to Stax.  As for matchups, I think Welder Mud has no matchups at which Stax has a better one.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Jason-Mox]

if you had to transend the deck to a unpowered, non workshop deck, would you make any changes?

i have played around with it and it seems really strong, even unpowered

[Toad]

There is a thread about that in the Unreggies. I've given my thoughts and advice on the deck, I've played it for a few games and It's pretty strong, even unpowered. It lacks the rough power of Welder MUD or $T4KS, but is a nice budget prison deck.

Check the thread : Unpowered Welder MUD

Matthieu

[MuzzonoAmi]

The unpowered Welder MUD deck is very strong for a budget prison deck, even stronger than Slax - the deck I considered until testing the unpowered MUD to be the optimal budget prison strategy. The lock is harder, faster, and less likely to kill you than the Slax lock. And while I haven't tested the combo matchup yet, but I imagine that the Pillars would swing the matchup slightly in Slax's favor.

But I digress....

Has Ensnaring Bridge been tested in the non-budget version? It seems that it would be an awesome addition to the deck, but as I haven't tested the 'real' version I can't really give any word either way on the card. It has been great in the budget deck though. I also run a pair of maindeck Jester's Caps, and have really enjoyed them. Has anyone tested them? And if anyone has, are they best left to weaker metagames, or are they viable in a high level environment?

[wuaffiliate]

most people run caps SB, 2-3 usually i like my 3 . the only problem with bridge is that it takes longer to win since you need 2 or 3 skullcaps down to really attack. im testing bridges SB 3 for now they are amazing vs hulk and any mask deck which i consider even matches.\n\n

[Thug]

Quote the only problem with bridge is that it takes longer to win since you need 2 or 3 skullcaps down to really attack.

You're clearly missing something, Bridge can be destroyed by Keg and Smokestack, you can Welder it away and you can pop a Memory Jar to be able to attack with everything...

[Toad]

I'm sometimes running a maindeck Jester's Cap in Welder MUD, but you don't really have room for it and there are a lot of better choices, such as the fourth Powder Keg, an additionnal Winter Orb if your metagame is full of control decks, an Ensnaring Bridge, etc... Nevertheless, It's a strong SB card, and I currently run 3.

I also have Ensnaring Bridges in my sideboard. Your goal, when you have Ensnaring Bridge on the board, is not to wait for multiple Skullcaps in order to be able to swing. Most of the time, you'll keep it on the board until you are willing to kill and then weld it or sac it to Smokestack to swing with your swarm. Even without Skullcaps, your single draw allows insane Metalworker beatdown. In my opinion, it's stronger than Fire/Ice here thanks to Grafted Skullcap, because it's shines against Mask (even if you'll still take 12, ouch), Hulk Smash and all non Welder aggro decks. It's even a win condition on its own against Suicide black. The only flaw is that it's pretty useless against Goblin Welder or Gorilla Shaman. Maindecking Ensnaring Bridge can be done in an unpowered metagame.

Matthieu

[Tindemans]

not only maindecking bridge Can be done in an unpowered environment, there it Should be done, and more, in an environment where unpowered decks exist, almost any, there quite needed. you always face a few rogue decks which can irritate in these open T1 tourneys, not to forget you can need them against black. however the're sometimes quite equal to kegs, so i can agree with the choice to maindeck like 4 kegs, and sideboard a few bridges.\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (Thug @ Aug. 26 2003,03:30)

Quote the only problem with bridge is that it takes longer to win since you need 2 or 3 skullcaps down to really attack.

You're clearly missing something, Bridge can be destroyed by Keg and Smokestack, you can Welder it away and you can pop a Memory Jar to be able to attack with everything...

yes clearly, but in most of my testing with bridge its been the caps than win me the game because i can usually get 2 down easily enough when locked.

against aggro such as sligh which is a big reason to run bridge imo, its very hard to keep a welder arround. so the caps and stacks are what usually win me the game with bridge down.\n\n

[Eastman]

Once you've got Bridge out against Aggro... is actually killing them ever a problem anyways?

[Smmenen]

Generally not.  With Welder Mud you can Weld out Bridges and Weld them back.  With regular mud, you simply need to get 2-3 Skullcaps in play and get enough cards in hand to swing.  Or you could sac a Cap to a Stax (god I love this slang).

Steve

[Tindemans]

actually i never really used the fact you can attack under bridge with caps on the table. there no rush, so just get the lock down with smokestack, and eventually sac your bridges. this was in Mono-Mud though.
usually I even begin sac'cing caps with a smokestack in play, since you should have one, under two or three caps. this because your deck runs out of cards quite fast that way!
that way it's easier to just get the situation under control, and sac the bridge.

In welderMud the first option would probably be to weld it out of play, and be able to return it if neccesary.\n\n

[Mellow D]

I just read the Mirrodin segment about the artifact lands on mtg.com.  What does everyone think of replacing 4 Mountains with 4 Great Furnaces?

[Dante]

Quote (Mellow D @ Sep. 04 2003,23:33)I just read the Mirrodin segment about the artifact lands on mtg.com.  What does everyone think of replacing 4 Mountains with 4 Great Furnaces?

all you're doing is adding vulnerability to your previously stable lands.  the new lands can be keg'd or disenchanted, as well as affected by non-basic hate (wasteland, back to basics, PoP) and Keg is a strong part of this deck.  the only thing you'd seem to get out of it would be more mana off metalworkers...

Dante

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote the only thing you'd seem to get out of it would be more mana off metalworkers...

...and some insane welder synergy.

I do agree, however, that those lands probably aren't worth it. When everyone is playing (or SBing) Hurkyl's, Null Rod, Shaman, Energy Flux, etc., specifically for this deck, making it more vulnerable to those cards probably isn't worth it.

I was playing some test games with this deck, and every time I SB'd, I brought in Null Brooch. It seems like something that should be MD, especially with so many people playing MD or wishable hate. I'm looking at cutting the winter orbs for them, because the orbs don't do much until turn 3+, which is about when you'd start using the Brooch.

[wuaffiliate]

i cut 2 worb and 1 cot for 3 broochs main some time ago, they are great .

[Thug]

I have been playing without Winter Orbs very long already, but almost always have replaced them with Jester's Cap. Lately I have also tried the Brooches back maindeck, but Brooch really shines after sideboarding. I think Jester's Cap is the better choice maindeck and Brooch should mainly be sided in, when you see the most hate.

Koen

[Saucemaster]

Quote (Thug @ Sep. 05 2003,14:00)I have been playing without Winter Orbs very long already, but almost always have replaced them with Jester's Cap. Lately I have also tried the Brooches back maindeck, but Brooch really shines after sideboarding. I think Jester's Cap is the better choice maindeck and Brooch should mainly be sided in, when you see the most hate.

You think Caps are better maindeck?  Interesting; I'd have said the opposite.  There's always something you're willing to counter, but there are plenty of decks against whom Cap is pretty much worthless.

Re: maindeck Null Brooch, I'm enamoured of it, but I'm not sure it's really necessary.  If there's alot of maindeck hate in your metagame (and there certainly is in mine, recently), then I think it's a very solid choice.  

As a general note, however, I think that the urge to side in Null Brooch comes from being used to playing blue-based control and feeling like you need to be able to counter.  Which is why I always feel like I want them maindeck, I'm sure.  But whether they're actually *needed* is a different story, and as I stated above, I think it's metagame dependent.

[Tindemans]

against all combo and control decks Cap's are perfectly worth playing, and winter orb only is against control.
when two decktypes are expected the most Cap's will really kill.