WELDER MUD

[Smmenen]

Hot of the the Mana Drain Press is: Welder Mud:
http://www.themanadrain.com/mud.htm

Read the article then discuss this archtype.  There is much to talk about.

Stephen Menendian

[MoreFling]

Koen, aka Thug, originator of MUD, was playing Welders in it a few months back already.

Also, can I dub this "CAPS LOCK MUD" then?  

Anyway, wouldn't you say that with Skullcap you just give opponents a good window to mise you with Hurkyll's recall? I think the deck is too sensative to it.

[Lupo]

interesting idea,

The first concern that came to mind is that isnt this deck vulnerable, if not more so to the same hate that shuts down stax?

Deed, flux, mutation etc... all would be bad news for this deck, especially if it goes nuts with the workers and drops its hand on turn 2.  

I have always been a strong proponent of Powder keg because it is so versatile and you have so many options on how to use it.  I wonder again though, given how permanent centered the deck is, not being able to deed for the nubmer that you want because you will kill your own key permanents?

[Saucemaster]

Quote Koen, aka Thug, originator of MUD, was playing Welders in it a few months back already.

And, in fact, Koen was one of the people who contributed to the deck, and the article.  The deck has been refined since then, with Koen's help.

Quote Anyway, wouldn't you say that with Skullcap you just give opponents a good window to mise you with Hurkyll's recall? I think the deck is too sensative to it.

This was something I was worried about in testing, but it very rarely became a problem.  The basic problem is that your opponent somehow has to find a way to get two (or more) mana in your end-step, which is much, much harder against this deck than it looks.  Notably harder than against Stax, for example.  Anyway, think of it as a risk vs. reward problem.  The risks of running Skullcap are unquestionably overshadowed by the reward, particularly when you take into account that the decks running Hurkyl's Recall in their side are typically control decks, and that you will quite happily play against Islands all day long with Welder MUD.

Quote Deed, flux, mutation etc... all would be bad news for this deck, especially if it goes nuts with the workers and drops its hand on turn 2.  

If you go nuts with worker and drop your hand on turn two, trust me, your opponent probably won't cast anything for the rest of the game.  Of the cards you mentioned, Deed is good if they can find the colors to drop it and then Deed for around 4 the next turn, but that's very, very rare.  It happens, but it's rare.  Having been on the Hulk side of the matchup for example, Deed always feels about a turn too slow because it's just too mana intensive.  Artifact Mutation is bad for us, but ONLY in a deck that is base Red-Green (so either RG TnT or Zoo), because Wastelands will keep them from getting red + green otherwise.  It's a neat trick if you can pull it off, but it's hard to pull off.  Energy Flux is the last card you mentioned; that one *can* be a problem, though less so than you might think (again, 3+ mana in your mainphase).  I would say that your SB has to be prepared to deal with Flux if you're running Welder MUD.\n\n

[Dante]

My question to those who tested this or have played MUD for awhile, how do you deal with H. Recall/energy flux?? If even 1 of these slips by you, it wrecks your board (or in H recall's case, your board and hand, if you have Skullcap out).  Do you side out the skullcaps?  

Dante\n\n

[Toad]

The deck is obviously sensitive to the same hate that shuts down Stax. But when Stax has only Spheres, Wires and Smokestack to prevent the opponent from playing his hate spells, Welder MUD also have 4 Powder Kegs (to sweep the Moxens), 2 Winter Orb (strong on itself and broken with Wire) and a full set of Wastelands, meaning it's really harder for the opponent to cast his hate. Against Hulk, for example, you have 4 Wastelands ready to fight against his 2 Tropical Islands and to deny him access to the green mana he needs to cast Pernicious Deed and Artifact Mutation. In testings against Hulk Smash, my opponent have often scooped with Pernicious Deed in hand and no -green- mana open to cast it.

The deck is also vulnerable to Hurkyll's Recall which can ruin your day, but the deck is build so that your opponent will be unlikely to cast it except on its own upkeep, which is not *that* bad for you. And you can pack some Null Brooches in your sideboard to fight against hate, because they have a nice synergy with Grafted Skullcap.

Matt.

[MoreFling]

Steve: I read it.

I still think you failed to convince me that this is better than Stax. The only upside I see is 5 strips.
I think I already explained to you in Antwerp what I think about it.

[Dante]

Quote (Toad @ Aug. 14 2003,13:22)The deck is obviously sensitive to the same hate that shuts down Stax. But when Stax has only Spheres, Wires and Smokestack to prevent the opponent from playing his hate spells, Welder MUD also have 4 Powder Kegs (to sweep the Moxens), 2 Winter Orb (strong on itself and broken with Wire) and a full set of Wastelands, meaning it's really harder for the opponent to cast his hate. Against Hulk, for example, you have 4 Wastelands ready to fight against his 2 Tropical Islands and to deny him access to the green mana he needs to cast Pernicious Deed and Artifact Mutation. In testings against Hulk Smash, my opponent have often scooped with Pernicious Deed in hand and no -green- mana open to cast it.

The deck is also vulnerable to Hurkyll's Recall which can ruin your day, but the deck is build so that your opponent will be unlikely to cast it except on its own upkeep, which is not *that* bad for you. And you can pack some Null Brooches in your sideboard to fight against hate, because they have a nice synergy with Grafted Skullcap.

Matt.

hmm...forgot about Null Brooch (oldie, but goodie).  Seeing it from the Hulk side, I know how reliant the sideboard of Naturalize/Art. Mutation is on green mana, and that's a weakness, so it was really the H Recall I was envisioning in sideboards if this type of Prison (skullcap) becomes popular.

Too bad there's no room for Icy Manipulator...  

Dante

[Saucemaster]

Quote I still think you failed to convince me that this is better than Stax. The only upside I see is 5 strips.
I think I already explained to you in Antwerp what I think about it.

Then play it for a while.  Powder Keg is amazing, Winter Orb is HUGE against control, the stability of the colored manabase is surprisingly useful, and Metalworker makes for some of the sickest turn-2's I've ever seen outside of Academy and friends.  Plus you don't have any of the unreliability and conditionality of Meditate.

[Fishhead]

Quote My question to those who tested this or have played MUD for awhile, how do you deal with H. Recall/energy flux??

I watched Zhalfirin pay for 3 Energy Fluxes during one of the testing games by using his Metalworkers.  I don't think he won that one, but he was definitely still in it despite his opponent having all of his SB cards on the table.  

You can also just smash them before they play the Fluxes.  

-edit-

The version we are playing here on this coast is different by about 4-5 cards.  I personally like to have a Trike available, and the manabase is just slightly different; though I am tempted by the City of Traitors.  

I won the August Matchplay event with the deck, but no one was ready to reveal it so I didn't post much about it.  The finals were against MonoU with multiple Fluxes.\n\n

[Lockdown]

I'm confused on one point.  If MUD can afford to run Metalworkers, why can't Stax or Stacker?

[Smmenen]

MUD has Kegs, Skullcaps, and Worbs.  Far more artifacts.  

Steve

[Thug]

Quote Koen, aka Thug, originator of MUD, was playing Welders in it a few months back already.

Yes I have tried them in a Den Haag tournament. And although they sure weren't bad they weren't needed at that moment, I only played them because there was a high change at a mirror match (4 people playing MUD). Ironicly I did face Arthur and lost, mise.

With the rate of Workshop/Welder decks raising very fast, MUD was having serious problems with opposite Welders. Arthur and me have tried very many cards against it, and I sure see mono-brown MUD still as an option, but Welder increases your worst matchup's a lot, so why not play them?.

Quote I still think you failed to convince me that this is better than Stax. The only upside I see is 5 strips.

Toad covered this very well, read his reply...

Quote My question to those who tested this or have played MUD for awhile, how do you deal with H. Recall/energy flux?? If even 1 of these slips by you, it wrecks your board (or in H recall's case, your board and hand, if you have Skullcap out).  Do you side out the skullcaps?

In testing with MUD the only time we sided out Skullcaps was against Pox, since The Rack owns you with a Skullcap on the board.

And now with Welder in the deck, you can also play around H. Recall. It's a fact that if a Recall is casted in responce to a Skullcap trigger you'r most likely doomed. But the question is how often will your opponents be able to play it. You can look at it as a 1U sorcery, and while this might look very easy, with all the disruption this decks packs, it isn't.

Quote Then play it for a while.  Powder Keg is amazing, Winter Orb is HUGE against control, the stability of the colored manabase is surprisingly useful, and Metalworker makes for some of the sickest turn-2's I've ever seen outside of Academy and friends.  Plus you don't have any of the unreliability and conditionality of Meditate.

This is most definiatly true, testing it gives you the best impression of the deck, just looking at the list isn't enough.

Quote The version we are playing here on this coast is different by about 4-5 cards.  I personally like to have a Trike available, and the manabase is just slightly different; though I am tempted by the City of Traitors.

City is an amazing card, without it I feel like your relying too much on Workshops, something I hate about Stax. It also adds great consistency to the deck.

Quote I'm confused on one point.  If MUD can afford to run Metalworkers, why can't Stax or Stacker?

The other decks can afford it as well, but it has less impact to the decks. You need to run a very high number of artifact to really break the Metalworker. You want to make sure that you can drop your hand the turn after you dropped the Worker.

Koen

[Lockdown]

Still, my budget Stacker 3 runs 31 artifacts while your version of MUD runs 37.  I think that that's a high enough count to justify the use of Metalworkers.

[Fishhead]

Quote Still, my budget Stacker 3 runs 31 artifacts while your version of MUD runs 37.  I think that that's a high enough count to justify the use of Metalworkers.

The question of what you would cut still applies to either of the decks you've mentioned though.

In WelderMUD the idea is that Metalworker allows you to take a huge second turn and drop your hand.  Since there's a lock aspect to MUD then dropping your hand is good; whereas dropping your hand in Stacker 3 sets you up for bad things like Balance.  So the Metalworker is not as synergistic here.  In Ducktape you have a lower artifact count and a higher colored mana requirement, so again the Metalworker doesn't have the quite the same synergy.  

This is not to say that Metalworker can't go in either of these decks (I have seen 2 or so in some Ducktape versions) but that it's not as good in those decks as it is here.  So, what 4 cards are you going to cut to make room for 4 Metalworkers?

[CHA1N5]

Re: Hurkyl's Recall...

The fact is that I have played $T4KS in several major tournaments and HR has never even been cast on my turn... never.  A couple times on my opponent's turn, and it just amounted to "Remove 1 counter from Smokestack and add 2-3 to Tangle Wire"  

That's why Artifact Mutation became the tech... it still does something if you cast it on your own upkeep

[Smmenen]

The allure of MUD for me is that I think it destroys SB options for the opposing deck. Your 8 Wastelands will be able to deny Hulk a color quite easily, negating Artifact Mutation and possibly Deed. Secondly, I cannot possibly see how Hulk's matchup gets better after SBing. Even if they resolve a Deed, it is unlikely with your Karn/Keg moxen killing and Massive wastleanding that they will be able to even pop the deed for that much. Finally, the deck brings in Cursed Totems and Jester's Caps.

I think MUD has the potential to be more explosive than Stax simply becuase, as Jamo put it, Stax turn one explosiveness is outweighed by the fact that MUD can do all of that one Turn Two and more and has more power in those turns.

I'm partrly responding to Matthieu's post here, but Blood Moon, while strong, does not stop the main threat that Stax has: Rector Trix. Nor does it work under a resolved Seal. Cap does - and I think only MUD can really abuse Cap.

I think, off the bat, Muds two worst Matchups are TnT and Stax, (which is why We added Welder) as I indicated earlier - but unlike Stax, I think it has a much better matchup against Rector.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Fever]

So Steve, you have been converted then? It seems like you prefer MUD to Stax, which is fine, but you argued so strongly for the other side recently, so i want to make sure.

[Smmenen]

Converted? Hell, I've helped spearhead this revolution .  MUD with Welder solves most of MUDs biggest problems.

I am not totally satisifed though.  I'd like to find a way to fit a third City of Traitors in here.  It really gives MUD an explosiveness that Stax tries to compensate for with more artifact mana like Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond.  

Powder Keg is absolutely amazing.  

Winter Orb has proven strong, in testing, against decks it shouldn't: Dragon and Rector.  And against Hulk it is an absolutely beating as Hulk desires to maximize its mana usage every turn.  

Let's start a little controversy

My personal build of Welder MUD actually he heretical.  It doesn't have Tolarian Academy - and the group decided to post Matthieu's.  I use 4 Kegs.  The reasoning behind the Academy is that this deck relies on Workshops and Cities to get itself off the ground.  After that Metalworkers provides such a tremendous source of mana, even deep into the mid-game, that you just don't need a card like Academy IF the mana base is incredibly tight.  You see Academy, in MUD, and in my testing is inferior to both City and Workshop.  After you have abused the workshop you want to keep the opponents mana base pruned with recurring wastelands (In Mono Brown MUD) while Metalworker is your real workhorse.

The problem with Academy is that Welder MUD really wants the full Wasteland contingent, as many Cities as possible, and as few Mountains as possible.  One of the strenghts of MUD relative to Stax is that EACH land is totally busted: It's either a Workshop or a pseudo Workshop: Academy or City; or its a peice of mana denial: Strip, Wasteland or a Field to recur a Strip/Wasteland.  And on that margin, I'd rather have a City than the Academy as hard to hear as that may sound.  Adding mountains dilutes that brokeness.  You really want to keep the Red component down.  

Another interesting aspect of MUD in comparison to Stax is that MUD is much less reliant on each individual lock peice.  It is content to abuse other peices such as Kegs and Worbs which in combination provide just as strong a lock as a Smokestack.  But each individual lock peice is less central, less focus in MUD than in Stax.  One drawback MUD has is that once it has lost a Smokestack, its gonna be awhile until it gets another.  With Welder's you solve that problem.  YOu can start the rucursion immediately, which is very strong.  You can re-use Kegs (Which I have done) and you will never have a dead Winter Orb .  

One obvious question is: why not blue?  Tinker and Ancestral seem like obvious additions and it appears that there should be no cost to the mana base to adding the blue.  The sad answer is that these cards add almost nothing to the deck.  MUD is, by its very nature, very redundant relative to stax.  These cards are nice boosts, but after testing, the group decided they weren't needed.
Steve\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Quote If MUD can afford to run Metalworkers, why can't Stax or Stacker?

Stacker should be able to dump it's entire hand by turn 3 anyways, short of holding back like a Trike or Jar. There is 0 need for the stall of Metalworker. It's also a rather dead card if I only have a few artifacts in hand.

This deck seems rather intresting, espically after playing against it yesterday. Keg's are gold, I always hate seeing them played by my opponents. Orb is cute, but honestly it was shit unless Wire dropped, I just personally dislike a card that's so weak w/o help.

My only question, why no Trike? Triskellion has always been awesome for me in all artifact decks, I would think it would be fine now since you added Welders to MUD.

[Fishhead]

Quote Orb is cute, but honestly it was shit unless Wire dropped...

Orb is a very definite threat in the Hulk matchup, probably moreso than Tangle Wire.  It's possible for them to work around the Orb, but when my lands produce 3 mana (or maybe more with Tolarian) the Orb is no longer symetrical.  

This could be a personal preference issue; I like having 3 Orbs and I noticed the MeanDeck guys posted only 2 in their latest list.  Fair enough I think to go either way, but I will point out that by playing this deck now you are gunning for Hulk and should play cards that are good against it.

Quote Adding mountains dilutes that brokeness.  You really want to keep the Red component down.  

What are your thoughts on the SB right now?  

Personally, I think you have to have a goodly number of Mountains because you may well be bringing in 4 (or more?) ReBs for Game 2.  I do like expanding into Red for SB options and I think this will affect the number of Mountains you must play.  Rather like the Red splash in Keeper for a while; zero MD Red cards, but 3 Volcanics + 2 Cities to support the SB.

Quote Triskellion has always been awesome for me in all artifact decks, I would think it would be fine now since you added Welders to MUD.

I kept 2 Trikes in my version, trying to stay away from a pure Karn kill.  He's huge in any Welder-based mirror, he's pretty good against Hulk and he singlehandedly smashes most Aggro decks.  One of the weaknesses of MUD type decks is that they can get overrun quickly by Aggro; notice how Tindemann played 3 Ensnaring Bridges + 3 (?) Kegs main to cope.  I feel strongly that there should be at least one Trike MD.

[Saucemaster]

Quote I kept 2 Trikes in my version, trying to stay away from a pure Karn kill.  He's huge in any Welder-based mirror, he's pretty good against Hulk and he singlehandedly smashes most Aggro decks.  One of the weaknesses of MUD type decks is that they can get overrun quickly by Aggro; notice how Tindemann played 3 Ensnaring Bridges + 3 (?) Kegs main to cope.  I feel strongly that there should be at least one Trike MD.

I'll chime in and note that I actually think the Trike decision is metagame dependent.  Now, I play in the same metagame and Fishhead and Zhalfirin, and both of them are running 2 Trike maindeck.  I've been playing the straight Mean-Deck version for a while, with no Trikes main, and I've still come to no conclusion on them, honestly.  Sligh can be a difficult matchup at times with Welder MUD (though your sideboard should be able to address it) and if you expect to see alot of aggro, you should at least consider maindeck Triskelions.  I'm still on the fence, myself, and there has been a big upsurge in the amount of aggro played at C&J's recently, so I suppose more testing is in order to convince myself.  Zhalfirin can probably expound better on the virtues and vices of maindeck Triskelion than I can.

On another note: tonight at C&J's (8/15) makes the second straight week that Zhalfirin has taken first place with Welder MUD.  He's promised to write a report, and I've promised to do (or hire someone else to do) bodily harm to him if he doesn't.  So those of you interested to see how the deck plays in a fairly standard tournament setting should look for his report.  He beat TnT, too--go Welders!

Quote One obvious question is: why not blue?  Tinker and Ancestral seem like obvious additions and it appears that there should be no cost to the mana base to adding the blue.  The sad answer is that these cards add almost nothing to the deck.  MUD is, by its very nature, very redundant relative to stax.  These cards are nice boosts, but after testing, the group decided they weren't needed.

Another thing to note on this issue is that besides Ancestral and Tinker being a bit random in the deck, the stability that basic Mountains provide is really strong.  Barring someone's lone Strip Mine, they will NOT be able to shut off your ability to cast Goblin Welder, while you cut off entire colors with ease.  This actually turned out to be very strong in testing against TnT.  Fishhead and I even tested with him running a straight R/G TnT with 5 Strip effects, with the ability to fetch basic mountains (unlike the R/G/u builds), and there were times when he really had to fetch Taiga in order to have Anger/Welder *and* be able to activate Survival to fetch them.  The fact that I could either cut him off Red by Wasting his Taiga, or force him to go fetch a Mountain (and thus have one fewer green source to cast or use Survival) was actually key a number of times.\n\n

[Thug]

Quote What are your thoughts on the SB right now?  

Personally, I think you have to have a goodly number of Mountains because you may well be bringing in 4 (or more?) ReBs for Game 2.  I do like expanding into Red for SB options and I think this will affect the number of Mountains you must play.  Rather like the Red splash in Keeper for a while; zero MD Red cards, but 3 Volcanics + 2 Cities to support the SB.

My maindeck is different by not playing with Winter Orb and playing 3 Brooches.

The only red card I see being sideboard worthy is Rack and Ruin, but Fire/Ice is pretty good as well, it just that I prefer Serated Arrows.

Did you test REB alot? Cause it has very bad energy with Skullcap, and often can't be cast early on to force through something. And as an answer to things it's not that good, since it doesnt stop Welders, Artifact Mutations, Rack and Ruins etc. The only thing it really stops is Energy Flux.

Quote One of the weaknesses of MUD type decks is that they can get overrun quickly by Aggro; notice how Tindemann played 3 Ensnaring Bridges + 3 (?) Kegs main to cope.

Most of the time we were playing 3 Bridges and 4 Kegs. And the previous MUD was, and is, a real house against aggro.

Quote I feel strongly that there should be at least one Trike MD.

So you can hope to topdeck it? There's no search in this deck remember. And what do you cut to make place for it? A Karn?
I think Karn is a lot better than Trisk, since it's almost always a faster clock, gives you more possible blockers instead of the pinging effect, and it kills moxes and sometimes your own Mana Crypt.

Quote He's huge in any Welder-based mirror

True, and IMO the only reason to include one if you do.

Koen

[Saucemaster]

Quote Did you test REB alot? Cause it has very bad energy with Skullcap, and often can't be cast early on to force through something. And as an answer to things it's not that good, since it doesnt stop Welders, Artifact Mutations, Rack and Ruins etc. The only thing it really stops is Energy Flux.

Thug, I tested REB in post-board games against decks bringing in multiple Energy Fluxes and it was solid.  It was also good to nab a Hurkyl's Recall every so often.  I think it's a "hate the hate" card more than anything else.  Energy Flux is enough of a threat that if your metagame starts adjusting and people bring multiples of it in against you, REB is worth considering.

[Zhalfirin]

I posted my report running the deck, so there is no need to hire any contract killers.

[Fever]

Quote (Thug @ Aug. 15 2003,13:25)

Quote I feel strongly that there should be at least one Trike MD.

So you can hope to topdeck it? There's no search in this deck remember.

Well, looking at the list, i see 4 Grafted Skullcaps, which i would qualify as draw/search. However, i do agree that if you want to run Triskelion, you should play two in order to insure that you draw it often enough.

[Zhalfirin]

As noted in my report, I have two Triskelions main and have liked them so far.  The results speak for themselves: 9-0-2 in all tournaments I have played with the deck, winning both tourneys.\n\n

[walking dude]

Can you beat null rod suicide with this thing? MUD had some game since even when your artifact mana got shut down and your workshops got wasted/sank you had bridge to buy time till you got a field to get back workshop to start casting things again. Here it seems they could shut down your mana fast and you have no stall and no way to get it back.

[Thug]

Quote Thug, I tested REB in post-board games against decks bringing in multiple Energy Fluxes and it was solid.  It was also good to nab a Hurkyl's Recall every so often.  I think it's a "hate the hate" card more than anything else.  Energy Flux is enough of a threat that if your metagame starts adjusting and people bring multiples of it in against you, REB is worth considering.

I won't deny it can't be solid against H. Recall and mostly Energy Flux, but thats just two cards. There are a lot more of evil hate cards that will shop up. In my opinion the best "hate the hate" card is Null Brooch.

It can be used more than once, be weldered into the game, the effect cant be regulary countered (only stifled).

Quote Well, looking at the list, i see 4 Grafted Skullcaps, which i would qualify as draw/search. However, i do agree that if you want to run Triskelion, you should play two in order to insure that you draw it often enough.

Which forces you to cut another card, for a 6cc spell, this reduces consistency, speed etc. I think a card like this should be sideboarding since it's only really paying off in a small amount of matchup's.

And if your sideboarding a card for an effect like Triskelions, IMO Arrows is better since it's a lot easier to cast, and thus can be used earlier and more consistent.

And yes, consistency is the key (I'm a poet  )

Koen

[Fishhead]

Quote The only thing it really stops is Energy Flux.

Thats really all I want it to stop.  

Actually, I used it in the Matchplay finals against MonoU.  In that case I got an insane draw and was able to drop a pile of artifact mana, then a Mountain on the first turn.  When I cast the Smokestack and he had the FoW, I had the ReB.  

It seems to me that sort of situation will come up while you fight for control; WMUD wants to force through a spell and has plenty of mana to do it.  The ReBs are fine in that situation.  But, I think if I force through a Skullcap that I no longer need the ReBs as much, I am planning on just overloading the Blue deck and winning that way.  

Aside: the other Blue permenant ReB hates is 'Tog.  So there are a couple valid permenant targets in the late game.

Quote However, i do agree that if you want to run Triskelion, you should play two in order to insure that you draw it often enough.

I prefer two myself.  I also agree with the idea that the Skullcap is your search.  I was amazed by the power of this card when I played against WMUD with TnT.  Often we'd end up topdecking, but there is no way to keep up with someone who is topdecking two or even three cards a turn.

Quote The only red card I see being sideboard worthy is Rack and Ruin...

My SB contained multiple R&Rs, Blood Moons and ReBs.  I expected to face Hulk and was partly gunning for that with the last two cards.  (I also tried two PoP figuring that I would pick up one free game when I suprised someone EoT with a PoP.  It never happened, and it was probably a goofy idea anyway.  But the look on their face would be sweet.