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Author Topic: A suprising build of Zoo takes me to 2nd..  (Read 3682 times)
Ichijouji
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« on: September 03, 2002, 04:27:22 pm »

Since I went on the road for the past week and a half to look at colleges, I haven't seen the tournament metagame as of late. That's 9 days I missed. And in one day while I was gone, the metagame switched from heavy control to Sligh. And this was very hard for me to adjust to. Being a Stacker 2 player, I was used to battling it out against control and having all the silver bullets and maindeck hate that made decks like Keeper and BSB cringe. But in no way in my mind can Stacker 2 stand up to Sligh. So I had to find a new deck to play.

Now, when you ask me off the bat what I'd play against Sligh, I'd probably say combo. But most combo decks are extremely expensive, and most of my friends don't even have the cards for powered Academy, Worldgorger, and Parfait. So I thought of what else could beat Sligh. And then I thought.. Stompy. But Stompy can sometimes find it's creatures not enough to force through lethal damage. So, you add burn to the deck. And then you have Zoo. Now, when people think Zoo, now-a-days it's more of Ice Blue Zoo than anything else. Also fully powered. But Zoo traditionally is one of those decks that doesn't even need to be powered to work. It can work fine off just

4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 River Boa
2 Gorilla Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Giant Growth
4 Incinerate
4 Rancor
1 Stormbind
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Black Vise

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
9 Forest
9 Mountain

Now, this is a very unconditional Zoo deck for most "vintage adepts". It's got a lot of unusual and new creatures, and some new and interesting card choices. But I assure you, it's all good.

Round 1: Richard, Butterknives (splash red for Wheel and Bolts)
He rushes out of the gate with Swamp and Mox Diamond, making up a second turn Shade, but I return fire with Taiga to Kird Ape. He lays Badlands and attacks with the Shade, showing me how good that little bugger is. After laying a mountain and Rancoring my Kird Ape, he starts to get nervous and hopes for a Bolt or Edict. He rits to Negator and in response to a Hymn I bolt his Negator, leaving him with only the two creatures. Rootwalla, Elite, and a Incinerate later and he gives the game to me.

- FYI: Games at the Lair are played on 1 match basis. -

Sean? playing Lackey Sligh
Okay, I commend him for his idea of playing Lackey Sligh, which sometimes beats regular Sligh, however Lackey Sligh has absolute junk compared to my version of Zoo. He has to triple block just to take no damage from a Rancor'd Kird Ape. Plus, Lackey never even has a chance to attack. He tries to burn my life total away but like in most Sligh vs. Stompy matches, the bigger critters prevail.

Rob playing powered Sligh
Now usually I'd just concede after hearing this guy had consistently drawn either Ruby, Diamond or Lotus and done a first turn Ball Lightning. But I take my chances and face him down. I drop a Taiga, Kird Ape. He busts out of the gate with.. Lotus, Mox Diamond, Wasteland. Making it so my Kird was more of just a Turd via wasteland, he stomps me down to 5 and has a Chain Lightning to answer my second turn Gorilla Shaman. Things get even worse from there as he empties his hand of burn then Wheels into two Fireblasts which he shoots at my dome. By the time I see the four mountains hit the graveyard, I know what's happening and pick up my cards to leave.

Some scrub playing Sui
Oh my god. If there wasn't a more entertaining match to watch that day, it was this. He rits to Negator first turn. I Bolt. He plays Flesh Reaver off Petal and a Lake of the Dead. I drop an Elite with a Giant Growth in my hand. Him, figuring he'd just take four and get rid of the Elite ran right for me. I GG'd his Reaver. He took 7, and hey, I lost my Elite. No biggy. I end up going down to 4 life from Library, but I draw just the right amount of burn to toast him away.

Store regular playing Academy
Ooh, combo deck. Ooh, mox monkey. See, a huge Stroke 3rd turn (Which he was about to play) is good and all, but when I lay an uncountered Mox Monkey first turn to rid him off Moxen and a turn-before him Wheel, he flat out concedes. Losing Stroke and Recall will do that to you. Razz

Steve, playing BSB
Steve and I go way back, however he and I get into arguements about Magic constantly. This was no exception. After Rancoring my Rootwalla, I went for the jugular to put Steve at four. In response, he pops his keg with 1 counter. In response, I tap 5 and Shaman his Keg. He calls a judge over and starts bitching about how his Keg still went through reguardless. The judge agrees with me, and Steve gets a sour attitude with me and concedes. I sort of felt bad, however he shouldn't have been so quick to quit on the match like that. Oh well, on to the next round

I'm 5-1 which is usually 1st or 2nd place, however 2 decks have managed to go 6-0. I'm playing one of them.

DJ playing WW
When we get underway, I jawdrop after hearing DJ made it 6-0 with white weenie. After the first few turns, I see why. He has 4 Soltari Monk and Priest, accompanied by Mothers, Phantom Nomads, and Suntail Hawks. Oh yeah. And 4 Cho Manno's Blessing. For a while though, we end up trading blows until he pulls the big trump card: Catacylsm. He ends up sacrificing all but Phantom Nomad, Divine Sacrament, and a Maze of Ith. I'm feeling like this is the end, but oh no.. I end up playing a Library and going down to 3 after a few turns of drawing up my library. But drawing what? Bolts and Incinerates, of course. His life total goes from 11-9-6-Dead with the help of two Skyshroud Elite.

Ah, finals. What a great feeling to have piloted such an unorthodox Zoo build to the bitter end. And bitter it will be. My final matchup is against Rob, and just look at the first game against him if you want to know what happened..

But then again, my deck did pretty well, and I'm pretty happy with the results.

Now, I know that I said Sligh was very dominant, and it was that day.. Atleast 70% of the field was Sligh. I just got most of the nonsligh matchups.
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Curses/Foiled
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2002, 05:06:22 pm »

Quote from: Ichijouji+Sep. 03 2002,17:27
Quote (Ichijouji @ Sep. 03 2002,17:27)After Rancoring my Rootwalla, I went for the jugular to put Steve at four. In response, he pops his keg with 1 counter. In response, I tap 5 and Shaman his Keg.
You can't do that. The Keg is sacrificed as a cost: there is no Keg around for you to target with the Shaman by the time you can respond to it. You would have taken 5 points of mana burn.
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2002, 05:38:00 pm »

Quote
Quote The Keg is sacrificed as a cost.

Exactly so; you cannot stop it with a Monkey.  Even if it wasnt a sacrifice, you still cant stop anything whose cost has been paid.  Destroying a Rod of Ruin doesnt prevent the one point of damage, etc.

Another interesting discussion I had about Kegs was this: if I sacrifice a Keg, does it go immediately to the grave for Threshold purposes?  If so, then people cant "in response" to, say, kill a Werebear while he is still 1/1.  This is the subtlety of "sacrifice" as I understand it.
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Curses/Foiled
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2002, 05:58:59 pm »

Yep - and the same is true for discarding as a cost et cetera. All kinds of costs get paid immediatelly, and there's nothing your opp can do about it. Most of the Survival/Shapeshifter tricks in FEB were based on this.

Makes me wonder what kind of a level 0 judge would rule otherwise.
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Ichijouji
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2002, 02:30:36 pm »

Yeah, I didn't agree with the judge. I made a mistake, but once the judge made his ruling, although it was a dumb one at that, I really couldn't say "No, the judge is wrong" and still continue because I probably would have been given a warning or something.
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2002, 04:25:54 pm »

Quote
Quote I really couldn't say "No, the judge is wrong" and still continue because I probably would have been given a warning or something.

One cool thing about playing T1 at C&Js is that is a pretty casual environment enforcement-wise; people are there to have fun and warnings would more likely be given for unsportsmanlike conduct than anything else.  When serious rules questions come up there its more like a communal Level I Judges test; everyone who is interested in rules gathers around and discusses the problem.  (The Keg ruling is not a "serious" question, I'd expect 95% of the players to get that one right.)  Anyway, this approach wouldnt work if we were playing for $25,000, but since we are playing for pretty much nothing its as important that everyone understand where the ruling came from (and the ruling be as correct as possible!) than it be done quickly.

BtW, this is the last serious question I asked:  I am with TnT, I have Survival'ed Anger into my graveyard.  My opponent plays Humility.  (Curse that card from a rules perspective).  Do my 1/1's have Haste?  Now, I Survival Genesis into my Graveyard and fetch back Anger.  I drop him into the grave with Survival.  Do my 1/1's have Haste now?  Wink
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Freddie
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2002, 08:52:17 am »

So you guys do NOT play 2 out of 3 games to win?

Is that correct?

-Freddie
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Cartman316 _420
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2002, 03:54:57 am »

sounds like it

~Cartman
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Zherbus
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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2002, 07:40:28 am »

Quote
Quote And in one day while I was gone, the metagame switched from heavy control to Sligh. And this was very hard for me to adjust to. Being a Stacker 2 player, I was used to battling it out against control and having all the silver bullets and maindeck hate that made decks like Keeper and BSB cringe. But in no way in my mind can Stacker 2 stand up to Sligh. So I had to find a new deck to play.

If you play Stacker2, how come you didnt have moxen in your Zoo deck?


Quote
Quote He rits to Negator and in response to a Hymn I bolt his Negator, leaving him with only the two creatures. Rootwalla, Elite, and a Incinerate later and he gives the game to me.

So he played a Negator BEFORE the discard against a deck with burn?

Quote
Quote In response, he pops his keg with 1 counter. In response, I tap 5 and Shaman his Keg. He calls a judge over and starts bitching about how his Keg still went through reguardless. The judge agrees with me, and Steve gets a sour attitude with me and concedes. I sort of felt bad, however he shouldn't have been so quick to quit on the match like that. Oh well, on to the next round

You should feel bad. That was horrible. Your judge is worthless and needs his status revoked.
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Freddie
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2002, 08:14:18 am »

I am glad that REAL magic is not as retarded as that...

Were all you have to do is respond with an answer to an EFEECT, ALREADY PUT UPON THE FRIGGIN STACK, and it counters the ability.

"I'll tap 4 and tome"

"Oh, um in responce I'll disenchant... you don't draw the card"
--

"I'll activate cursed scroll, targeting you"

"Uh um in responce, i'll eat it with the shaman, so that I don't take damage"
--

Are you sure this guy was a real judge?

And for crying out loud, what kind of crappy tourney is it were it is not only single elim, but you play the best of ONE GAME?!

Why not just play sligh/ burn, since it has a really high 1st game win %

"Yeah to bad, I see you got 4 COP:Red in the SB, along with 4 Aegis of honor, 4 Honerable passage, 4 chills, 4 douse, 4 BEB, 4 Honerable Passage, 4 Reverse Damage, 4 Rune of Protection: Red, 4 Hydroblast, and 4 Storycircles... but since you don't play with Ring of Maruf, or Golden wish, or Death wish, its an autowin for me... TWENTY TO THE CRANIUM!!!!"

That place must really lick the balls.

-Freddie
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Ichijouji
Guest
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2002, 03:22:25 pm »

Quote from: Zherbus+Sep. 06 2002,05:40
Quote (Zherbus @ Sep. 06 2002,05:40)
Quote
Quote If you play Stacker2, how come you didnt have moxen in your Zoo deck?

I don't have the right color Moxen. I borrow the others sometimes for when I play Stacker 2, otherwise I try to do my best without all 5 moxen.

Quote
Quote So he played a Negator BEFORE the discard against a deck with burn?

 He played rit-Negator first turn followed by a second turn Hymn.

Quote
Quote You should feel bad. That was horrible. Your judge is worthless and needs his status revoked.

 I agree. He is a worthless level one judge, but he's all we have, unfortunately.
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Ichijouji
Guest
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2002, 03:27:25 pm »

Quote from: Freddie+Sep. 06 2002,06:14
Quote (Freddie @ Sep. 06 2002,06:14)I am glad that REAL magic is not as retarded as that...

Were all you have to do is respond with an answer to an EFEECT, ALREADY PUT UPON THE FRIGGIN STACK, and it counters the ability.

"I'll tap 4 and tome"

"Oh, um in responce I'll disenchant... you don't draw the card"
--

"I'll activate cursed scroll, targeting you"

"Uh um in responce, i'll eat it with the shaman, so that I don't take damage"
--

Are you sure this guy was a real judge?

And for crying out loud, what kind of crappy tourney is it were it is not only single elim, but you play the best of ONE GAME?!

Why not just play sligh/ burn, since it has a really high 1st game win %

"Yeah to bad, I see you got 4 COP:Red in the SB, along with 4 Aegis of honor, 4 Honerable passage, 4 chills, 4 douse, 4 BEB, 4 Honerable Passage, 4 Reverse Damage, 4 Rune of Protection: Red, 4 Hydroblast, and 4 Storycircles... but since you don't play with Ring of Maruf, or Golden wish, or Death wish, its an autowin for me... TWENTY TO THE CRANIUM!!!!"

That place must really lick the balls.

-Freddie
First, Freddie.. I'm going to ask you to stop being such a prick. The judge made a mistake, as well as most other players on occasion do. I bet you weren't such the all-knowing player back in the day, so you should probably have figured it out that he's just like you once were. And like how a lot of us once were.

Also, we usually get a LOT of people at our Type 1 tournaments, so it's very hard to squeeze 2 out of 3 game matches into the few hours the store has time to run tournaments. Our store isn't the greatest, but you know what? I like it, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped talking trash about it.
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Freddie
Guest
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2002, 03:36:19 pm »

When I was a newer player I was not judging tournaments.

It is inconcievible to have a structured sanctioned tournament were the winner progresses after winning ONE game.

Not 2 out of 3

Not even best of 1 game in swiss

But single elim. best of 1 game? that is friggin ridiculous!

I am not all powerful, or all knowing, I have never claimed to be, yes I have made plenty of play errors, and screwed up, and gave bad advise, and slipped and fell, I am only human.

I was not making a call on the your character or the character of the judge...

I was making a comment on the horrible tournament structure, and your judges poor rules knowledge.

He is the judge after all and is supposed to know these things.

If you choose to be offended, that is your right, but do NOT start name calling, or attacking me as a person.

-Freddie
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2002, 03:49:17 pm »

Quote from: Ichijouji+Sep. 07 2002,12:22
Quote (Ichijouji @ Sep. 07 2002,12:22)He played rit-Negator first turn followed by a second turn Hymn.
Zherbus wasn't unsure of what you said, he was asking in disbelief that such a horrible play would be made.

And what's your beef with Freddie? If you like your store that's fine, but don't get all indignant when someone calls a spade a spade.
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