Dreamer's Upcoming T1

[Abra_Volta]

Well, here's the info (if I remembered it right).

Dreamer's
St Louis Park, MN

Sunday November 10th
1:00pm Start time

First Prize: Unlimited Ancestral Recall

I know I will be there for this one. I am going to try and make it down to Gametech on the 8th for practice.

See everyone there.

[Abra_Volta]

Bump for reminder. It's this coming up Sunday.

[Abra_Volta]

Well, the tourney has come and gone.

I went down with Nether Void, typical Bile maindeck with the following sideboard:

4 Spinning Darkness
3 Dystopia
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Planar Void
2 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Masticore
1 Powder Keg

16 people showed up to compete for the Ancestral. So, it was 3 rounds with a top 8.

Unfortunately, I only posted a 1-2 record and I didn't stay to see who ended up winning.

I do know TMD member JDL was there with TnT and from what I saw of the other decks floating around would've stood a good chance of taking it home.

My match-ups:

Round 1 - Jason playing something Turbo-Nevynish

First game is mine as I launch 3 Hymns in the first 2 turns and he can't recover.

Second game is mine as a Hippie brings him all the way down to 5. He cats a Spike Feeder and has most of the Nevyn combo in play but concedes when I cast a double Dystopia to rid him of Feeder and Exploration.

Btw, Void loves it when it gets to draw 3 cards a turn. Thanks for the 2 Horn of Greeds. =)

Round 2 - JDL with TnT

I knew he was playing TnT and I know he is pretty damn good with it. I just don't have the playtest time and experience to make all the right choices I need to.

Game 1 turns into a loss as I keep a shaky no land, but Lotus-Duress-Hymn hand and don't see land for about 4 turns. He proceeded to get out a Druid Lyrist and then Masticore and beat me senseless.

Game 2 starts out in typical TnT fashion with a nice Juggernaut clock. After he gets me down to 5 I am able to Will to get a Mishra and Hippie into play. I use the Hippie to chump until Mishra comes online and is able to block, tap to make itself 3 to kill the Juggernaut. I then get in a couple hits with another Mishra and 2 Shades finish it off before he can recover. Also, he had mulliganed to 5. Damn TnT scares the crap outta me.

Game 3 is all his and I just can't get anything going to save me. That was pretty much my fault for mulliganing into a 6 card no threat hand.

Round 3 - Andy with Lackey Sligh
Nothing special here, just way too fast beats and he just smashes me. I did take the first game thankfully to a topdecked Void vs. no topdecks for him (not a single burn spell in 6 cards).

Games 2 and 3 go pretty much:
T1 - Lackey
T2 - Attack, watch Lackey call out Goblin Mutant
T3 - Ball Lightning, smash for 12, burn me out for the rest.

And that's pretty much it. I got railed and pretty much deserved to. On a happier note though, I was able to get the other 2 Beta Hippies I needed and I got to test out my new purple Dragon Shields. I have to say they seem pretty nice so far.

[jdl]

Andy (Lacky Sligh) beat me (TnT) in the round of 8.  He went on to take the tournament.

The finals started off as a good matchup between Andy and Nick (URphidian).  They had two good games, which they split.  To end the second game, Nick pulled off a miracle.  He's at one with a Morphling out.  Andy is at 7 with three mountains (all tapped), a Cursed Scroll, and one card in hand.  Nick will lose if Andy untaps.  Nick casts Ice, praying.  He draws an Ancestral.  Casts that, and gets crap #1, crap #2, Strip Mine.  He strips one Mountain and attacks for 4 with the Morphling, leaving mana back to counter one burn spell.  If Andy draws a land, he wins.  He didn't.

Game three was horrible.  Nick ends up having to Mulligan down to 4.  His hands were so bad, it was just wrong.  He made a good game out of it, but was overrun by a Lacky in the end.  Anti-climatic end to a good tournament.

-----------------

Quick rundown of how TnT went today.

I just can't stay away from this deck.  It's too much fun.  I was playing R/G/u for the last couple weeks, but it hasn't been working as well as I wanted it to.  For the tournaments last Friday and today, I cut blue again.

// Fat (12)
4x Juggernaut
4x Su-Chi
2x Triskelion
1x Masticore
1x Genesis

// Other Creatures (11)
4x Goblin Welder
2x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Druid Lyrist
1x Quirion Ranger

// Utility (8)
4x Survival of the Fittest
2x Naturalize
1x Memory Jar
1x Wheel of Fortune

// Mana (29)
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Tiaga
5x Forest
7x SoLoMox
1x Grim Monolith
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

// SB
4x Blood Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Artifact Mutation
2x Naturalize
1x Bottle Gnomes
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

I went 3-0 during the Swiss rounds, beating an Academy-like combo deck, sui, and Keeper.  All fully powered, and all 2-1 wins with really good matches.  As I said before, I lost in the round of 8 to Lacky Sligh.  It's amazing what bolts and fat creatures can do to destroy TnT.  Last time, I lost in the finals to a mono-red / fat artifact deck.  The matches were very similar, except in this case I couldn't side in Artifact Mutation.  I didn't see a Survival in two games and just got rolled.

Congrats to Andy for taking a very odd deck to victory.  He knows his deck inside and out, and played it well.

-- Jim

[Abra_Volta]

I see there a few changes to your deck. How did they do?

I see you upped the Trisk count to 2 and took out the BoP. You swapped the 2 Emerald Charms for 2 Naturalize.
I also see the switched Grafted Skullcap for a Wheel.

And btw, I wasn't playing Sui. I was playing Void.

[Milton]

What happens when you listen to people online and ignore metagame tendencies?  0-3 with Keeper.  Round 1 loss to a Type II madness deck!!!  Round 2 loss to Zoo.  Round 3 loss to Zoo.  That's how much Cunning Wish sucks!  It's a four casting cost Swords!  It is the worst card in the damn game!  It has no place in Keeper and I deserve my fate for listening to the so called "adepts" on this site.  

The biggest myths supported by adepts on this site:
-Hate decks aren't that good.  
-Aggro sucks.  
-Sligh can't win.
-Cunning Wish is awesome.
-Keeper is Tier 1.

Since listening to the people on this site who feel that three main-deck creature removal spells are enough, I am 2-6.  Since my peak at Gen Con to today I have gone from an 1852 rating to a 1740 something.  I probabally lost another 30 points on Sunday.  

Keeper can't win in a metagame that expects it and hates it.

Damn Scald!!  Damn Blurred Mongooses!!!  Damn 13 land of 18 cards against a Madness deck!!!!!!!!!

I am the worst Magic player in the world!!  

Damn, had to get that off my chest.

By the way, I'm kicking all your asses next month.  I always win when a Lotus is on the line.

[Fishhead]

Quote That's how much Cunning Wish sucks!  It's a four casting cost Swords!  It is the worst card in the damn game!  

Hehe.  I took one of the "adept" Keeper decks to FNM to give it a spin.  I thought Cunning Wish was pretty cool, but I played a lot of mirror matches, TnT (which I lost horribly to; Shattering Pulse is way too slow; get the Ebony Charm if you still have time) and some Parfait (crushes Parfait).  In short, a lot of "slower" decks rather than speed Aggro.  

Changes I made: One Keg main, two in the sideboard, play maindeck Vampiric; push Mox Monkey and Fire/Ice to the side.  (Why is Fire/Ice maindeck in a deck that plays 2 Cunning Wishes?)  So, in short, I set it up to face less power and more Aggro.  But other than that, pure Paragon magic.  

Overall, it wasnt bad.  Fun to play.  I really missed the Power Artifact Combo though.  IMHO, Power Artifact is the greatest thing since sliced bread; especially against Aggro.  A lot of times Keeper can survive long enough to take "one big turn"; its a heck of a lot more efficient to take your big turn and Braingeyser your opponent for infinity-3 (keep some mana back to hardcast Force than to drop Morphling and try and stay in control 4 more turns.  Ever have that situation where you look at a couple creatures and a Scroll on the board and go "huh, Morphling is King, but he can't block them all; Balance would Mind Twist me...umm.. whats my new plan to survive?"  No more with Power Artifact.  Now you just win.

[Abra_Volta]

Sorry to hear you did so poorly Milton. If it helps I consider you one of the top players down there...of course, i'm always friggin scared to play against your deck.

And to be honest, the first thought that crossed my mind when she sat down across from you in Round 1 was:
"God, he's just going to waste her."

That'll teach me about underestimating an opponent.

[Zherbus]

Quote What happens when you listen to people online and ignore metagame tendencies?  0-3 with Keeper.  Round 1 loss to a Type II madness deck!!!  Round 2 loss to Zoo.  Round 3 loss to Zoo.  That's how much Cunning Wish sucks!  It's a four casting cost Swords!  It is the worst card in the damn game!  It has no place in Keeper and I deserve my fate for listening to the so called "adepts" on this site.  

The biggest myths supported by adepts on this site:
-Hate decks aren't that good.  
-Aggro sucks.  
-Sligh can't win.
-Cunning Wish is awesome.
-Keeper is Tier 1.

Since listening to the people on this site who feel that three main-deck creature removal spells are enough, I am 2-6.  Since my peak at Gen Con to today I have gone from an 1852 rating to a 1740 something.  I probabally lost another 30 points on Sunday.  

Seriously, if your just gonna shit on everyone then why are you still here? I used to have a lot of respect for you but when you start blaming your losses on others, then it just takes that away.

Why is it that noone else is getting creamed using Keeper? How come 1 Swords, 1 Fire/Ice, 1 Balance, 1 Chainers, 1 Abyss, 1 Balance, AND 1-2 Wishs are enough for everyone else? Do you think we are all just manufacturing results so then we can all giggle behind the curtains when you lose yet another 200 points from your rating?

Christ, Cunning Wish helps against lots of things but I dont think anyone has said anywhere that it helps against a pile of Keeper Hate. I've gotten hated out by Bloodmoon and yeah it sucks. I didnt go around blaming the tool, the people stooping to using anti-keeper options, or people I have discussed Keeper with.

You want to beat shitty burn decks, nonbasic hate, and Abyss proof creatures? Then play a whiter Keeper with Moat and use a number of basic lands to fetch. Dont use Cunning Wish, just pack some more anti-hate. Hell if aggro was kicking my ass, Id be pulling out my Oaths (put a few in and watch Ophidians, Mongeese, and Juggernauts cry) pretty damn quick. Thats just my advice.

I dont see legions of Mongeese but my manabase is still constantly attacked. I have been playing with a pair of Islands with the fetchlands and so far have been happy. Of course with Cunning Wish I can fetch the lone BEB in my SB.

(Manabase:
6 SoLoMoxen
2 Island
1 LoA
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Islands
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine)

I dont know what 'Adepts' have supported your Myths, but here is my thoughts.

-Hate decks are gay and the only way to beat them with little trouble is to either switch decks for a few weeks or adapt the decklist to it.

-Aggro doesn't suck, but name one aggro deck that has no unwinnable matchups. (Lets say over a 30-40% win ratio in any given matchup) TnT is godly, Mask is amazing, r/g beats is solid, Sligh and Stompy can be scary, Suicide is great, and thats not mentioning all the aggro-control. None of them beat a decent Combo deck or Survive a control deck that recovers from the initial turns. Oath gives them all fits too.

-Sligh can OF COURSE win. Its known for its 'Oops! I won!' factor. Thats not to mention its fairly solid against most things. It dies if it doesnt kill quick enough but is otherwise a respectable deck.

-Cunning Wish is awesome. Maybe not in your metagame, but its worked for lots of people other places.

-I dont like 'Tiers'. If you were to take the number of decktypes everyone on the planet was playing, took that ratio then Keeper would emerge with the best track record. However if you walked through a tournament facing Bloodmoon then Back to Basics then Price of Progress then Back to Basics then Bloodmoon then Bloodmoon again, of course you are playing the wrong deck for the field.

Anyways, as the owner of the site and creator of the Adepts, Ill personally be thanking you for the kind words.

EDIT: One thing I mentioned before is the inclusion of Burning Wish. I know of some people using it and its been great to fetch things like Pyroclasm, recover Yawgmoths Wills, and wierd stuff like Obliterate.

[Milton]

Sorry if my post sounded like I was shitting on others, Zherbus.  I didn't mean to.  I was trying to be somewhat sarcastic and ironic.

By the way, you mentioned above that White is an important option in an aggro metagame.  I suggested that Keeper should become more redundant and that White is becoming more important in my article in August.  But, I was told by Rakso that I was living in 1997.  

Fishhead:

You liked the Fetchlands?  I'm considering three.  Not sure about four as I am looking at funning two Mishra's Factories to shore-up my weaknesses against aggro.  Also, a maindeck Keg is a must (with two in the board!!).  I'm now running two Swords, a Fire/Ice, a Keg and a Masticore, along with two Morphlings and a Abyss maindeck, with Kegs and Moat in the side (although Combo is looking much more attractive in my metagame and I probabally won't play Keeper anymore).  With Kegs, Moat, Miners, Crypts and the required Red Blasts filling my sideboard there is just nothing left to Wish for, so Wishes are out for good!

I'm glad that someone else agrees that they are a little slow!

By the way, Power Artifact in Keeper is nifty, but how do you get it off quickly (turn 5 or 6 at the latest)?  With Monolith, Power Artifact and Stroke you are looking at a three card combo, two of which are restricted it seems that it also might be a little slow.

[Raziel]

Quote What happens when you listen to people online and ignore metagame tendencies?  0-3 with Keeper.

@ milton the thing I try to remember, is that anyones decklist, or advice is only based on their respective metagame. Valuble and informative as it might be, it's still up to me to decide if it's applicable to my metagame. I take everything I read with a grain of salt.

Quote Cunning Wish sucks!  It's a four casting cost Swords!

@ milton That's happened to me more than I'd like to admit. Lately I've been experimenting more with Burning Wish. For me it's more important to get my sorcerys back after they have been removed by tormod's crypt. I have been known to run cunning wish in mono blue though.

Quote Fishhead: Ever have that situation where you look at a couple creatures and a Scroll on the board and go "huh, Morphling is King, but he can't block them all; Balance would Mind Twist me...umm.. whats my new plan to survive?"  No more with Power Artifact.  Now you just win.

@ milton You didn't post a decklist, so I don't know what you ran. And again from my experience, if going into an unknown metagame I personally would run Trinity- Combo Keeper. It adds another win condition to keeper.

[Fishhead]

-edit-  milton and raziel posted while I was writing this.  so this was mostly a response to zherbus -end edit-

Quote Seriously, if your just gonna shit on everyone then why are you still here?

If you read the last three lines of his message, you'll realize that he's joking (in part anyway).

Quote Why is it that noone else is getting creamed using Keeper?

There are plenty of people who are getting slaughtered with Keeper.  But, you have to be sort of a masochist to post "I went 1-2 drop with Keeper" on the board.  Why would you bother?  

I do highly agree with Milton that there is a lot of hype around the invulnerability of Keeper, and I'll point out that suggesting "no one else is getting creamed using Keeper" is the sort of over-the-top hyperbole that feeds this tendency.  As you point out in the rest of your article, every dog will have his day, and that includes Sligh, Stompy, Zoo, and Sui.  As a Keeper player, you have to hope that these dogs dont have their day at your expense or else you will find yourself 0-3, filling out your drop form.  

Anyway, back on topic.  I think the real meat of Miltons article is the general sense that certain "Vintage Adepts" decks are still geared for a slower, more control oriented metagame and they dont have the staying power to fight 5 rounds of Aggro.  Well, "duh" on Milton, he knew that going in, he said it himself many times.    But its another good datapoint as we discuss these decks for a wide open metagame.

[Milton]

Quote Anyway, back on topic.  I think the real meat of Miltons article is the general sense that certain "Vintage Adepts" decks are still geared for a slower, more control oriented metagame and they dont have the staying power to fight 5 rounds of Aggro.  Well, "duh" on Milton, he knew that going in, he said it himself many times.    But its another good datapoint as we discuss these decks for a wide open metagame.

Thanks for understanding, Fishhead.  And thanks for havin my back!

Also, you are right.  Duh on me.  But, we all should be much more critical of Keeper players who post decklists and say "this is how Keeper should look, if you disagree you are an idiot".  Metagame is everything.  My fault for not being critical and my fault for falling for the hype.

[Azhrei]

@ Milton: I run a ton of white. OH NO, Rakso disagrees!!! Whatever; he's stuck in 2000 if you're still in 1997 (which was directed at the Blood Moon build FYI and not the white).

I have an all-aggro metagame and my maindeck and board get me to the semis almost every time, and I win more consistently than anyone so far, except maybe SliverKing who also plays Keeper. I don't know what to tell you. Build the deck the way that works for you.

ATTN: I PLAY IN AN AGGRO METAGAME with MASK and TNT!!! The next time someone accuses Keeper players of being in slow metagame areas I am going to  POWERBOMB THEM THROUGH A FLAMING TABLE!!!  

SliverKing actually went down to ONE REB at our last tournament because there were SO FEW control decks present... and he WON THE TOURNAMENT because Keeper beat TnT, Mask, Sligh, and Gay Fish on the way to the bastard knocking me out in the semis.  \n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote I PLAY IN AN AGGRO METAGAME with MASK and TNT!!!

I think you're taking "Aggro" in too wide a sense here if you think these decks are comparable to the ones Milton is talking about.  I personally think of Mask as more a Combo deck than Aggro; and TnT is much more control-ish than Pup-Mongoose-Bolt-Bolt-Scroll.  

As far as I can tell from your VA comments you beat one Aggro deck (Sligh) and lost to a more flexible Aggro (Junk).  You beat one Keeper and lost to another (MattD).  You beat URPhidian (Control).   I'm assuming you didnt face TnT or Mask, or else you would have mentioned beating them.  If you ID'd into the top 8, then thats your day.  Three control decks and two Aggro; against which you went 50/50.  

Thats not an Aggro metagame.

First victim.... ::powerbombs Fishhead through a flaming table::

Let's do a quick review: 1) this tournament was not my normal metagame, as several regulars did not attend but several out of towners did. 2) I lost to the BG deck SOLELY through my own error and unfamiliarity with a deck I had modified heavily and not because it was "flexible aggro." 3) If Mask is a combo deck, then tell me what deals the 12 a turn. You might as well call Ritual-Negator a combo. 4) I'll take Pup, Mongoose, Bolt over Mox Workshop Juggernaut ANY DAY OF THE WEEK, espeically if there's a Survival coming down. Calling TnT something other than aggro is just dumb; it has a late game, oh boy-- that's what makes it GOOD aggro and not sputter out and die aggro. 4) Sligh, Suicide, TnT, Mask, Stompy, and Zoo all make regular appearances at my normal tournaments, so much so that the monthly tournament before SliverKing won (with KEEPER), I won (with KEEPER) and my REBs were DEAD CARDS in FIVE of SIX matches. They were only useful against SliverKing, the OTHER control deck.

I strongly recommend that you be more clear on your information in the future before you imply that I don't know what an aggro metagame is. Do you think we started maindecking CoP: Red because Sligh was unpopular?

You are ducking the point.  I'm talking about the VA tournament, which is the only one you've posted a report for.  You played 3 control decks (including 2 Keepers) and 2 Aggro decks, one of which you lost to.  Your metagame is not Aggro.

Post reports for your tournaments with Silverking etc and we'll discuss your "normal" metagame.  Start a new thread and we can quibble over whether Mask is Aggro, Combo or Aggro-Combo.  Start a new thread and we'll talk about who's the control deck in TnT vs. Sligh.  

And WTF are you jumping into my post using your mod priviledges to argue with me?  If you want to discuss the topic, I'd rather you use the reply button.

[Freddie]

Run

2 plow
2 edict
moat
abyss
2powderkeg
2d.blow
2 teferi's responce

see if hate decks, and aggro decks are as much of a problem

[Milton]

Thanks, Freddie, but I'm going:

3 Plow
2 Keg
1 Abyss
1 Masticore (instead of Moat)
1 Response
2 Mishra's Factories (this is perhaps the greatest card of all time against crappy Aggro).

Plow is just better against a first turn Negator, Juggernaut or River Boa.  It rocks against everything but Morphling and Mongoose.  While Mongoose is a real threat, I haven't been killed by a Morphling in a long time.

None of this really matters because I'll probabally try Grow or Reanimator at the next tournament.  Why bother shoring-up Keeper when Grow or Combo will do better?  I was very impressed with Reanimator at GenCon.

Quote I have an all-aggro metagame and my maindeck and board get me to the semis almost every time, and I win more consistently than anyone so far, except maybe SliverKing who also plays Keeper. I don't know what to tell you. Build the deck the way that works for you.

What can I say to that?  You must be a phenomonal player if that deck that you play can plow through a aggro heavy metagame.  I guess I'm not that good.

With all due respect, of course.\n\n

[john jimmy]

So does anyone have the results of the tournament?

[Hspecter]

My performance with reanimator at Gencon proved to be very successful. I am glad to see good players realize that it is an upper tier level deck. I continue to play reanimator as it never seems to let me down.

-Manuel

[Ruboonia]

Quote (john jimmy @ Nov. 14 2002,14:15)So does anyone have the results of the tournament?

Tim - you were there, you should know...  

Anyway:
1st - Goblin Sligh
2nd - URphidian
3rd - Keeper (Me   )
4th - Zoo
5th-8th - Grow, TnT, Manstill, and Oath

Interesting, but everyone in the t8 was playing a different deck!

[Abra_Volta]

One of these days I need to find out who you people are.

I know who Milton is, btw, thanks for the Hippie trade!

I know who jdl is.

But I cannot place who you are Ruboonia. I don't think we've ever played. Plus, i've only seen Milton's Keeper running around.

Maybe one of these days we'll meet.

Hopefully at the next tourney we'll have a slightly bigger turn out than the 16 people for this one. I'll be posting an announcement for it in a bit.

[Ruboonia]

My name is Joel, and I've came to the last 3 t1 tournaments at Dreamer's with Milton.  I got 2nd at the Sapphire tournament, went 2-2 at last month's Jet tournament and didn't make t8, and got third this month.  You probably know me, just don't know me by my online handle  

BTW, do you have any info. on the Lotus tournament next month?

[john jimmy]

I was at the Dreamers tourny last week.  I played Manstill.

[waSP]

Hah!
You sold my "Zoo" deck short.. We never got a chance to play so you can't say you got 3rd..
I've got a question though, who in their right mind plays Jackal Pup in R/G aggro.  There are better 1 drops, and with green you have the best 2 drops in the game IMO, Blurred Mongoose and River Boa.
After my disappointing performance against Lackey Sligh, if that's what you call that synergistic pile of crap (a joke of course, it worked amazingly well), I'm considering going back to a list with Rancors.  What do the experienced aggro players think about this?  Do you guys find them better against control?

I was a little disappointed my friend didn't show up to play my Enchantress deck at the tourney.  This deck isn't the run of the mill Powered Replenish deck, but an aggro combo deck.  I'll be playing it at the type 1.5 in New Brighton on the 23.  Any of you going to that tournament?

[Azhrei]

@ Milton: I really don't know what to say to that. I'm just reporting my own experiences (last tournament with the local crew I faced Sligh 2-0, Mask 2-1, Gay Fish 1-2, and Keeper 2-0 in the Swiss, the month before was RB rogue 1-2, RG Zoo 2-0, Keeper 2-0, TnT 2-0, and RB rogue 2-0). I am honestly confused as to why you are having the problems you are-- if I had the answer, I'd love to give it to you. That's two losses to aggro-control, zero to control (well, SliverKing got me in the t4 the second time ), and zero to Sligh, RG Zoo, Mask, and TnT.

At States my losses were due to a Keeper mirror against one of the finest players I have ever had the honor to sit across from (1-1 matches lifetime record now; I'll get him next year!) and some gross, embarrassing play errors on my part from forgetting just what I could get with Cunning Wish.

Right now I'd say I play against TnT maybe 10 games a week if not more, and for a while I was getting DEMOLISHED. With the new build and practice, I am now winning 2/3rds of games on average. None of the NG crew had tested against TnT prior to this tournament, as it has not caught on up North yet like it has down here.