TheManaDrain Invitational "Proxies or N?" Poll

[kl0wn]

Just getting more input on this business.

If we allow proxies, I think more people will show up and people won't be able to complain about "losing to money". However, some people have expressed opinions of how proxies would be bad.

Its time to put this issue to rest.

The voting period is a bit shorter than the last poll because we really need to get this underway.

[j_orlove]

I'm voting for santioning because that would make this mean more to Wizards. If we can show that T1 can get huge events, that will help the format. I don't think they'll be interested in non-sanctioned events.

Also, I never liked proxies in tournament play, because you have to be very strict about what can/can't be a proxy, or risk cheating.

[riverboa11]

Hmmm...this one is always tough.

On one side, you want more people to show up, which means you will want to have proxies.  This also leads to better prizes.

But on the other hand, we want Wizards to take notice.  A big sanctioned event would definitely catch their eye.  But then again, if kl0wn sends pictures and results to the weiner formerly known as MaRo like he said, that could get some attention too.

So I guess I'm for proxying just to get more people and better prizes.

[guineapigbr]

Where and when is this even supposed to be, or did I miss that?

[kl0wn]

The event is tentatively going to be held in Syracuse, NY on January 5th.

If we don't sanction this and allow P10 proxies, then I'm going to take pictures and 1) Send them in a letter to Mark Rosewater essentially saying " 'sup now, biatch? " and 2) Include them in my report and description of the event that I will definitely be sending in to Star City, also inadvertently sending a public " 'sup now, biatch? " to Mark Rosewater.

This is only if a decent amount of people show up of course. If a decent amount of people don't show up, I'm most likely going to have to move into a cardboard box down an alley on the bad side of town.

[thombligh]

I currently own the Power 10, but I feel that it would benefit us more if the Power 10 were allowed to be proxied for two reasons.

1)  The competition will be tougher.  

-  Come on guys, do you really want to play against unpowered decks?  Is that what TheManaDrain Invitational is all about?

2)  Possibly more people will be in attendance which means that the prizes will be better, and their could possibly be prizes for 4th place.

I also want to mention that it took about 2 years for me to pick up my power 10, and I am thouroughly against the reprinting of them.  But their has to be something we can do to raise the attendance of this event, and I don't believe that not allowing proxies is going to help at all.

[Shock Wave]

A lot of interesting points have been raised, so I think I'll throw in my $0.02:

Quote 1)  The competition will be tougher.

Yes, but there are two sides to this argument. If we are having a proxied tournament, then decks are going to be tapered for a powered environment. The beauty of having a sparsely powered environment is that you can't get away with running lots of power-hate. It really sucks to draw a handful of Null Rods and/or Shamans and find out you're facing Stompy, or something equally unpowered.

Also, a sanctioned tournament promotes a diverse metagame. Let's face it: in a proxy environment, everyone who does not own power is going to want to play Keeper, or something equally powered. I think it would be extremely disappointing to walk into a metagame that is 50% Keeper. Seriously, how many Stompy or Sligh decks would you expect in a proxy environment?

Furthermore, unpowered players playing with power can seriously dilute the prowess of the playing field. I've seen some Stompy players do well with a Stompy deck, and totally crap out when playing Keeper. Similiarly, I am a control oriented player and aggro is just too aggressive (for lack of a better word) for me to wield properly. My point is this: a proxy enviroment will tempt some players to stray from their roots which can severely hurt the environment in turns of competent game play. I mean, not everybody can wield Keeper or Academy.

Quote 2)  Possibly more people will be in attendance which means that the prizes will be better, and their could possibly be prizes for 4th place.

I guess proxies would draw more people, but I think "possibly" is the key word here. It is also "possible" that it won't attract any players at all. To be honest, I'm not too sure how proxies will affect the turnout. Anyone with experience in proxy tournies care to comment? Zherbus?

Quote I also want to mention that it took about 2 years for me to pick up my power 10, and I am thouroughly against the reprinting of them.  But their has to be something we can do to raise the attendance of this event, and I don't believe that not allowing proxies is going to help at all.

This is interesting: You've spent 2 years acquiring your power, and are vehemently opposed to reprinting it, yet you want a proxied tournament? I think the biggest beef for people with a collection of power is the fact that they've busted their asses to acquire it only to find out that any schmo out there can use it in a tourney. I know some powered players who had to fight through powered enviroments to win their power, that's why to me, it doesn't seem fair to allow the people who don't have it to use it.

Quote But on the other hand, we want Wizards to take notice.  A big sanctioned event would definitely catch their eye.  But then again, if kl0wn sends pictures and results to the weiner formerly known as MaRo like he said, that could get some attention too.

Frankly, I don't think Wizards is going to give a shit regardless of how many people show up. I agree though, it's at least worth trying to get their attention...

[Radjammin]

First think really good replies so far.  Made me really see both sides.

I personally think for "TheManaDrain.com" tourney we want the best decks showing up.  I agree with whoever said, I want a powered tourney if I am going to drive 8 hours.  I don't want to play against Sligh and Stompy all day.

With that said, someone said that we want a strong showing at a sanctioned event.  A strong showing at a sanctioned event would show Wizards that there was a tournament scene.  Well I want this too.

But here is the real question.  Will people drive 2,4,or 8 hours to play their unpowered deck or Stompy?

Overall, I think I am just selfish and where my Girlfriend will never understand I want to drive 8 hours to play in a magic Tournament, I have to rationalize it to myself.  I will pretty much say auto no if I can’t use proxies.  I would have to consider this a common reply of many that don’t have the cards to make the deck they want to play and have to drive so far.

This might even be a moot point, as I have a friend with a lot of power cards I don’t have, but I am just speaking for all the guys that are in my boat.

Another question, this tournament keeps being referred to as a Invitational?  Do you need an invitation to attend?  If so, I guess my opinion doesn’t matter.
And thank you Big Chuck, by you stating my questions again, they seem to have more meaning.

[Cartman316 _420]

I think having it sanctioned would show Wizards a lot myself, and would help the people who care about their rating. Otherhand, we do want the best of the best out there playing, so it would be very competive, and to do that, you might have to allow proxies. I think sanctioning though is the right call, and gets my vote.

~Cartman

[riverboa11]

Quote (Radjammin @ Nov. 25 2002,11:28)Another question, this tournament keeps being referred to as a Invitational?  Do you need an invitation to attend?  If so, I guess my opinion doesn’t matter.

There are no invitations.  If you show up and have the money to play, then you are all set.

[BigChuck]

Quote  Will people drive 2,4,or 8 hours to play their unpowered deck or Stompy?

Why would you drive 8 hours to play stompy?

[Matt The Great]

Kind of like the first PT.

[kl0wn]

First off, I have to say that anyone who is dumb enough to play a brand new deck that they've never played with before just because they can proxy the P10 deserves to lose. These people will never even make it to the Top 8 and may God have mercy on their souls.

Secondly, a good portion of the locals up in Syracuse play 1.5 and have never really needed to acquire the P10 outside of personal interest. Their normal environment doesn't allow them, so they haven't needed them.

Allowing for proxies of the P10 will even up the playing field for those who play 1.5 and don't have the power. Although I agree that Type 1.5 is an entirely different format, it would still be good for those locals to have a Ruby in their Sligh deck so that they won't feel overwhelmed.

The bottom line is that proxying will help draw in the locals.

[MolotDET]

The thing is: allowing people to proxy only the power will make the feild more diverse.  Quite a few extra people will show up from the boards and from outside the boards.  People are more likely to be playing the deck they want to play if they can proxy the power, so that they might spend less money to accuire other cards and just proxy the power.

     On the other hand:  allowing people to proxy the power will allow for some people to show up with T2 decks with moxes in them, which will unbalance the field.  Also you might end up with quite a few people playing decks thay really don't know how to play.  The quality of opponents might drop and so some of those in the top8 might have made it on the strength on weak opponenets

[kl0wn]

The people who are playing decks that they don't know how to play will be eliminated in the first 2 or 3 rounds though.

The reason why there are only prizes for the Top 4 are because of the weak opponent factor. Actually, it was because I ran out of money from the supposed potential budget, but it still works out that way.

If someone makes Top 8 due to weak opponents, then they'll be smashed to bits before winning anything.\n\n

[Lord of the Goats]

i say allow proxies. i personally am only missing a lotus and could probaly snag one before jan 5th, but my experience at gamemaster has shown that proxies are definatly benifitial.
the first few rounds of a tournament are always bad... it's the decks that win that people pay attention to. having proxies won't prevent the first few rounds from being filled with suboptimal decks. that's always how it works in large tourneys.

i think not sanctioning it will give wizards a nice "screw you"... they've already said they can't reprint or proxy at all (i agree with the no reprint thing, but i think a proying scheme similar to what nevyn proposed a while ago would work).  anyway, they've basically said that all our ideas suck and i for one am not happy with what they've done so far for type 1. it would be nice to kind of say "hey, if you're not going to help us then we'll do it ourselves... we don't need you"

granted we do actually need them but actions speak louder than words and i'd be willing to bet that more people would show up if proxies were allowed. i personally know of 2 people who i would bring that really need proxies to compete. u/r without an ancestral isn't going to cut it, and sui with out the jet is annoying.

[BurningIce]

Would the proxies be limited to power?  I have the Power 9, but I only have 1 Morphling (for example).  Would I be allowed to proxie any 5 or 10 or whatever cards, like a 2nd morphling?

[Radjammin]

I really like the Elitist reasoning for not allowing proxies.  That this will somehow cut down on bad players.

Some of the best players I know, that win Major Prerelease and Draft tournaments don't have a mox to their name.  But you are telling me if they don't spend 2 grand on a deck, then they would probaby be bad in type 1, or should play sligh untill they "learn the format".  That's the reason people hate type 1 players.  Lets try giving better reasons then that and inadvertently give us all a better name.

I said earlier that both sides had vaild points, this just isn't one of them.

Radjammin.
A proud Republican opponent of "trickle down economics"

[DeathByDreams]

I'm kinda against it because if they weren't allowed the metagame would be more diverse. It wouldn't be as much fun if there were a grand total of 4 different decks played. Keeping the metagame diverse IMO is more fun than playing against the same deck over and over again. Like mentioned before unpowered decks can still compete.

If proxies are the popular opinion though we should probably decide what can be proxied (just p10, everything, only a certain amount, etc).

[riverboa11]

I think we should limit the proxying to only the P10.  This will definitely make the field more diverse, as everyone and your grandmother can print out pictures of Mana Drains and The Abyss, but not everybody owns them.  If we allow only the proxies be of the P10, then the field will be diverse.  Not everbody will be able to play Keeper, because they probably won't have all of the other cards.  Sure there will be exceptions, but how many people do you think will be wielding Keeper for the first time there?  Not that many.

So to sum it all up, only P10 should be proxied, creating a diverse enviroment and allowing more people to play.

[Grand Inquisitor]

proxies will improve the turnout.  without proxies, people who were on the fence (and don't have power) may not want to travel for hours and pay $25 to get their face stomped in.  people with power will go to prove they can win anyway (and i suspect this is true).

i don't think proxies will have a significant effect on the diversity of the field.  if you don't have power ten, it is unlikely you can assemble keeper or tnt.  what you will probably see is more Ux variants, zoo, or combo-ish variants.  in general, it will not turn it into a keeper fest.  what it will do is make people without power's decks one turn faster (and thus level the playing field).

as far as sanctioning this thing to get attention, get real.  wotc will not support vintage until we are the last people still playing magic (and my bet is that we will be some day).

however, there is the argument that people who do have power have payed dearly to attain it, and that it is their right to maintain that advantage.  i agree with this, and although i voted for proxies, i did so because i want to have the best chance of winning, not because i thought i deserved a hand-out.

[upinthe]

It seems to me that a fully sanctioned event sponsered by TMD would be more prestigous for TMD on both the internet and in hopes of getting recognition from wizards. The best way to recruit new people for t1 is probably to bait them to this site, so image is everything here.

Proxies would give someone an excuse to dismiss the tournament as fake or not hardcore. The last thing you want is for everyone to think that T1 cannot be played officially, that we are desperate, and/or that we aren't serious.

Also, remember that if a tournament isn't sanctioned it doesn't exist in the eyes of wotc.

[Abra_Volta]

I think everyone needs to realize what proxies do for a specific tournament.

If you say that only proxies of P9 can be used, then think about what those proxies will be used in? Mostly there are only a handful of decks that can take advantage of the full power 9. I believe that saying "proxy the P9" also means you just want to see those few decks.

But, what if you say no proxies? Sure, it might be a more diverse metagame, but are the decks that will show be that much weaker?

What about a compromise? What if you were to say that you can proxy any legal card in the format, but only 5 proxies allowed?

Most people don't own full P9, but they do own 1 or 2 or 3, etc...

A 5 generic proxy rule I think would allow a diverse and strong metagame, which I believe is what most people are hoping for out of this tournament.

As far as sanctioning, I have not really made up my mind about that.

[BurningIce]

I'd vote for that.  5 proxies will let people who almost have complete decks play what they wish and for those who don't have power to play with some of it.  Better than nothing.  But if it's only proxying the power 9, I doubt I'll vote for it.  Seems unfair to those of us with power that we have to get all the other cards we need to play.

[hulk3rules]

Quote At any rate, I don't think we should allow proxies. I really have never been a fan of this anywhere because some people worked hard to get there power...It isn't really fair that you can just go and proxy it. Most people would still come if they couldn't. If you don't have power, you can build around it. If you do, all the better.

(BigChuck on the previous thread)

For probably the first time ever, I agree with Chuck.  There are people who work their ass off for their p9, and allowing everyone to proxy it is a shot to their balls.  And to let you all know, I only own 3 different pieces of power yet I still feel this way.

I won my first mox in a T1 tournament where I played with 0 pieces of power, in which I completely smacked a fully powered rOSE right in the face in one of the final rounds of the t8. I don't mind borrowing rares and other small cards from friends, but I have never asked my friend to loan me his power when I was playing and he was working.  If I cast an ancestral recall, I want it to be my ancestral recall.

I voted for no-proxies because I feel that those who have worked hard (or spent a lot) to get their power, deserve that slight edge,  and it makes me feel that much better when I still kick their ass  

EDIT: Oh yeah! Post #69 baby

[MolotDET]

Quote I really like the Elitist reasoning for not allowing proxies.  That this will somehow cut down on bad players.

Some of the best players I know, that win Major Prerelease and Draft tournaments don't have a mox to their name.  But you are telling me if they don't spend 2 grand on a deck, then they would probaby be bad in type 1, or should play sligh untill they "learn the format".  That's the reason people hate type 1 players.  Lets try giving better reasons then that and inadvertently give us all a better name.

Firstly, I voted for the proxies.  Secondly, we did not say bad players, we said people playing bad decks (ie. T2 decks with power) or decks they have no familiarity with.  Thirdly, yes there is a world of differance between T1 and T2 but, not that they would nesceserally be bad.  Fourth, Sligh and Stompy level the field and there is always someone playing them, and quite a few seasoned players play them.  Lastly, I believe the T2 players that hate us for whatever reason are usually the type of people that make the most etitist type comments, so do we really care if they hate us?  

Quote  It wouldn't be as much fun if there were a grand total of 4 different decks played.

Allowing people to proxy only the power would insure the diversity of decks played.  Becuase you can only proxy the corisponding power and not the whole deck.  So a rogue Sligh deck gets it's Ruby or whatever.

Quote without proxies, people who were on the fence (and don't have power) may not want to travel for hours and pay $25 to get their face stomped in

     Exactly the point, we want to entice people to come from a great distance, and for as many people to show as possible.  Wheather this is to show Wizards that we can get along with out them, or to show that you can get a good turnout for a vintage Torny by allowing proxies, or whatever the reason.  We want this to be a big event and we want to have fun and we want good competition and we want to play against a more diverse field than we have ever played against before.

------------------------

     Gamemaster, which is the store in which I play, allows power proxies.  They hold weekly T1 tornys and tornys for power once a month.  I have seen abit of an evolution amoungst the non-powered and newbie players there (who are coincedentally T2, 1.5 and 1.x players).  Take these examples into account when thinking about allowing for power proxies.

#1) newbies come for a T1 torny and no proxies are allowed.  These people play substandard decks with no power and are beaten baddly by even the lowest tier T1 decks, who in urn lose to the big powered decks.  They leave the store unhappy and swear that T1 is all about the power and the money.

#2) newbies come for a T1 Torny and proxies are allowed.  These people put a full set of power into whatever deck they are playing, even if that means that they must splash bule in a Sui deck to do so.  Even though they get a few more wins than they did last time they are still beaten by many decks that can be built for less than $200.  They leave the store unhappy but they get the idea that if there deck was built more concisely perhaps they would stand a better chance.

#3) newbies come for a T1 Torny and proxies are allowed.  These people build decks that use the largest amount of proxies that they can use properly, without thought that: many of the other cards included do not belong, they have never played the deck before, the deck does not have the feel of any deck they are used to.  They fair better than they did above, but the still lose to cheaply made, but expertly piloted decks.  They leave the store unhappy but are starting to get the idea that even if everyone has the power, T1 events are still won by good players piloting solid decks.

     Eventually:  semi expeiranced players come to a T1 Torny and proxies are allowed.  These people build not-exactly tuned decks that have some odd card choices.  They take some key losses to finely tuned decks and get an idea of what their weaknesses are.  They leave the store determined to do better next time and to hone their deck to a razor sharp edge.


     If player are interested in T1, this is where you want to get.  Before reaching this point of critical mass, it is not in the best interest of the player to aquire power.  Not until they reach understanding of the format will playing with the power make any real differance.  The lucky broken plays will still be there, but the follow up to victroy will not.

Anyway I voted to allow power proxies only, but I think this is all moot and we should just let Zherbus decide!!!

[Radjammin]

Quote (hulk3rules @ Nov. 25 2002,21:45)For probably the first time ever, I agree with Chuck.  There are people who work their ass off for their p9, and allowing everyone to proxy it is a shot to their balls.  And to let you all know, I only own 3 different pieces of power yet I still feel this way.

.  If I cast an ancestral recall, I want it to be my ancestral recall.

I voted for no-proxies because I feel that those who have worked hard (or spent a lot) to get their power, deserve that slight edge,  and it makes me feel that much better when I still kick their ass  

I think you have some possession issues. You would only play with your own Ancestral Recall?  Well maybe if you draft you should bring extra land to draft with.  You wouldn’t want to use the store’s land, it doesn’t belong to you.
   Why do you think they just chopped extended in half?  It’s because the older cards were creating an unfair playing field.  In the same respect, people probably weren’t competing in extended as much as the cards were really getting hard to find.
   But you know what would be cool?  If somebody took a new deck to the Mana Drain Tourney, and did well.  Something as imaginative as TnT.  Or maybe we get a lot of players there with a truly diverse and powered mega game, with a tournament report that we get in somewhat of a timely matter.  We need to start caring about ourselves and stop focusing on Corporate Wizards.  It you are able to create business, then Wizards will take notice. You can’t be like, “look at us wizards, where cool!!” That didn’t work in preschool and it doesn’t work now.  It’s all about the Benjamin’s for them.  This is a good thing.  If they go under then Magic is dead.  Let’s continue on what the Mana Drain does so well, community building.  I haven’t felt this much magic community since The Dojo.  That’s why I support proxies.  It doesn’t leave possible type 1 community members out in the cold because they can’t afford to be my friend.
   But if you want to sit in a corner with your other 2 Grand buddies, and circle jerk each other, feel free.  That’s just not me.  I am for 9 proxies tourney.

You could just have said, 'I know I probably wont be coming, but the off chance that I do I want to use proxies because I do not own full power.'

[Grand Inquisitor]

radjammin, i usually enjoy your posts, but i think you've misunderstood hulk3rules.  he mentions that he got his power through winning tournaments win un-powered decks, not laying down da 'benjamins'.

also, even though i agree that people in t1 are much more focused on game play and building a community of like-minded people, magic is a collectible card game.  therefore it conditions markets of supply and demand, and eventually inequality.  we can only help people catch up so far.  and its not that we're going to 'leave possible type 1 community members out in the cold '.  we'll welcome them (and they're stompy deck) and help them and their deck like anyone else.

i'm actually all for proxies, but let other people have their opinions, and don't bash the hulk!

[kl0wn]

My only reasons for wanting to allow P10 proxies are these:

1) It will create a bigger turnout.
People will feel less intimidated because they have access to the most expensive cards without having to actually shell out $1000 to do well in the tournament. I'm not saying that a full set of P10 is required to do well in Type 1, I'm saying that a lot of people feel that way and proxies will make them feel more comfortable while at the same time proving them wrong when they lose horribly with their 5 color Sligh deck. We need a lot of people to show up for the kind of prizes everyone wants.

2) It helps dispell the myth that Type 1 is all about money and the P10.
If a random stick puts the P10 into their Extended deck and then gets absolutely destroyed by experienced players, they can't complain about "losing to money". The playing field is level and they lost due to inexperience. People learn best through making mistakes. You can tell someone that Type 1 isn't about power until you're blue in the face, but they won't believe you until they've had a chance to see for themselves.

If you're against playing with proxies, fine. Don't proxy anything then.

If you don't want proxies because you worked hard on getting your P10 and you want everyone else to have to get them the hard way as well, then you are an opponent of Type 1 becoming mainstream. Wizards has the same opinion, although their motives are different and they are conciously trying to kill the format.

Personally, its my opinion that nobody should proxy anything. I think its best to learn the format before getting the big cards and playing the most skill-intensive decks. I think that getting your P10 and other difficult-to-find cards should be a quest that gives you a profound feeling of accomplishment once completed.

I also think that the most expensive cards should be available to everyone and that people should have the right to choose whether or not they proxy.

[j_orlove]

How about instead of allowing proxies, offer a prize to the best nonpowered finish in the tournament, as well as to the top 4. This wouldn't be an lotus, but offering something nice  to the powerless deck with the best record could provide the incentive some people need to come and compete--if this attracts only 4 more people, that would be more than enough for a $50 prize--an excellent incentive, if you know all the powered players are ineligible.