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Author Topic: ToCVII?  (Read 16607 times)
MoreFling
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« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2003, 07:00:27 am »

What if, on a sunday to be decided, we started at 19:00 CEST?
that's 7pm here, and 10am on the west coast?
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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2003, 07:18:32 am »

i think picking exact times to start is difficult until you know how many rounds (entrants) there will be, and if there will be a cut to t8.  unless we restrict it to the first x people to enter, than it may run into the wee hours for the europeans.
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MoreFling
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« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2003, 07:37:22 am »

I'm willing to take the gamble. I can start at 18:00 too. Quite frankly, I don't expect more than 6 rounds, and after that cut to T8.
Only for the T8'ing Europeans, it will run into the wee hours.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2003, 01:32:58 pm »

An alternative format would be thus: every Sunday for three weeks (or a month, whatever), sit down and play two rounds. It's a compromise: you don't exclude people who can't sit around for ten hours at a time, but you also get it moving and it doesn't take six months to finish.
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Fever
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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2003, 05:55:15 pm »

Just a note about which program to use:

MWS is cool, it looks a lot nicer than apprentice, and you can have the actual card pics if you have high-speed to download them all. HOWEVER, its sluggish on any computer when compared to apprentice, and its still prone to glitches. The matches will play out much faster on Apprentice, which is definetly a factor if the rounds are timed.

I say, spilit it up into 2-4 weeks, on Sundays. I might actually play in this one.
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walking dude
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2003, 07:41:27 pm »

If its all in one day I can't play, but I would like to help as a deck checker or some other thing that can be done up front.
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suicide_slushy
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2003, 10:47:14 pm »

I'll play either way; single day or week to week, but I think apprentice should be the program.  The only real complaint with it is the difficulty with wishes, but since decklists will be posted there isn't a chance of cheating (not that i think there are too many cheaters among us).  Apprentice is faster, and more reliable imo than mws.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2003, 11:48:08 pm »

Why hasn't anyone brought up the worst part of Apprentice yet? Its shuffler is reason enough to deal with a little lag. Come on guys, this isn't CounterStrike here, this is a strategy game where lag shouldn't be that big of a deal.
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MoreFling
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« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2003, 12:26:03 am »

I played against ZoneSeek with MWS yesterday, and we virtually had no lag. The new version (0.93?) is really a lot better it seems in terms of lag. He was behind a firewall, I'm behind a router,and we played without lag.
I'm convinced it should be run in MWS. That way, we won't have to publicly reveal decklists, since MWS can play Wishes.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2003, 12:38:18 am »

Actually, I always liked the discussion surrounding the revelation of decklists.
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MoreFling
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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2003, 12:41:13 am »

In one-day events, the discussion can be after the tournament.
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Redman
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2003, 01:26:42 am »

You could always offer the option to the players as to which program to use, though I myself like MWS better.  I've thought for some time on how to make this run as smoothly as possbile , and would be very happy (and impressed) to see a quality ToC with finals that aren't forgotten.  I also think decklists and frequent tournament reports are essential to developing and holding intrest, both for players and observers. I think reports should be required for Top 8 (or 16, or however you do it). If it's going to be a limited enrollment engagement, everyone should be expected to write reports. Or at least those are some suggestions from a former coordinator.

However you do it, I would certainly be interested in playing.
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Brendan
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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2003, 01:33:33 am »

I've never had trouble with apprentice's randomization.

Are people just pissed with it because it gives bad hands? That happens in real life too.

Having your mana sources distributed through your deck as every 2nd card isn't good randomisation, it's called deck stacking.

More on topic: I would love to play in this if it has 1 week rounds or somesuch. I'm not spending an entire day sitting in front of my PC playing magic.
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TracerBullet
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« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2003, 02:05:07 am »

Brendan, not a good way to make friends.




More importantly, the actual shuffling mechanism for Apprentice is beat as fuck and quite easy to manipulate.  I'm sure somebody else will explain it much better than I, so be prepared, but to put it quite simply, it doesn't work.


To put some simple, anecdotal evidence on it, I drew my 1 Necro in 7 straight games (in the first 13 cards) playing Void.
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MoreFling
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« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2003, 03:46:47 am »

The apprentice shuffler numbers the cards, and then 'randomises' them according to patterns the program uses. The key to numbering certain cards, is in the deckbuilding feature. I managed to build pandeburst, and get my lotus on opening hand (and thus usually getting a turn1 or 2 kill). If you've seen and done as many log checks as I have, you'll see what's going on.

You, if you have any clue how apprentice works, can play a few games, and then analyse your tourney.log file. You'll be amazed.
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Brendan
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« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2003, 04:18:22 am »

I always play heavily redundant decks which would explain why I never have trouble with apprentice.
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Hyperion
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« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2003, 08:10:56 am »

Alright, lots to respond to here. I feel like this is starting to come together pretty nicely, so continue to voice your opinions as you see fit.

Quote
Quote If its all in one day I can't play, but I would like to help as a deck checker or some other thing that can be done up front.

Cool, I added you to the list of deck checkers (walking dude).

Quote
Quote I'm convinced it should be run in MWS. That way, we won't have to publicly reveal decklists, since MWS can play Wishes.

I think that if you're running the whole shebang, it should be up to you anyway (unless anyone else has a problem with that). So tentatively, MWS it is.

I agree with those saying the decks should be posted anyway. Or, at least the maindecks - if we use MWS it looks like we might not have to reveal the SBs (though we could do that anyway if people want). Having 'prediction' threads is fun. The other small detail is that if the decklists aren't posted, the deck checkers would have the advantage of knowing what everyone else is playing, assuming they're participating themselves - and I'd hope that isn't a problem either, otherwise I don't want to be a deck checker anymore  - and no one else would.

MoreFling, your mention of a firewall reminded me: what do we want to do about matches where both players are behind walls? Just tell them to play it out on AIM, or something else?

If we're playing on MWS and have to allow for both players having walls, clearly the time limit on each round is going to have to be flexible. Perhaps if we do end up spreading this over 2-4 days, we wouldn't have to have the rounds be timed?
Then those problems would take care of themselves .
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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2003, 09:23:43 am »

if this is going to be an open tourney, i think an important first step here is getting a good idea how many people are really interested.  it might be 40, it might be 200, we really don't know.  should someone start a thread polling interest?

if we have large numbers, one option that might make the whole thing run more smoothely is groupings and scheduled games (a la World Cup Soccer).  i know magic players love their swiss format, but if all the early round pairings were known in advance, we could schedule round timing easier, pre-empt mutual fire-wall pairings, circumvent a lot of the miscommunication that occurs because of mis-reporting, lags, or wrong pairings, and still have control over how long the tournament runs.

also, are there any ideas on a goal for a starting date?  it would be nice to have it before the t1 championships in july.
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2003, 10:11:24 am »

Quote
Quote If this is going to be an open tourney, i think an important first step here is getting a good idea how many people are really interested.  it might be 40, it might be 200, we really don't know. should someone start a thread polling interest?

We'll do that soon. I think it would be prudent to figure out the other details first, so we can present all the information at once and not get asked the same questions a hundred times. The number of entrants will probably affect how many days over which this is run - and I guess groupings, if those need to be done - but other than that, not much.

As for a starting date, I was originally thinking it should be sometime after July to allow the ToC to be an indicator of the new metagame. I think it's going to be a little rushed if we try to have it before July, because we still need to

1) Get most organizational details finalized. I think this is getting there though.
2) Have signups. This should probably span at least a week.
3) Give people time to decide on a deck, download MWS, and give deck checkers sufficient time to look over the decks. We should allow at least a week for that, and probably more, in my opinion.
4) Give TO(s) time to figure out how to structure the rounds, and how to handle matchups where both opponents are walled (I guess entrants should just say if they're walled when they register?).
5) Allow time for bets, predictions, trash-talking, etc .
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MoreFling
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« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2003, 10:28:54 am »

We don't need deck checkers. MWS has built-in check funcions, and if you use an illegal deck during the tournament, I'll just give you a gameloss.

I think it would be more interesting to not reveal the decklists. There can't be much discussion about the ToC if you don't have weekly pairings.
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Radagast
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« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2003, 11:52:36 am »

For format, how about we do a thing with qualifiers and such, and have the top N advance to the ToC? That way, we could also discuss the decks from the qualifiers and do nifty things like metagame predictions.
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TracerBullet
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« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2003, 11:56:19 am »

That's a ton more work....
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2003, 12:16:11 pm »

Quote from: MoreFling+June 11 2003,11:28
Quote (MoreFling @ June 11 2003,11:28)We don't need deck checkers. MWS has built-in check funcions, and if you use an illegal deck during the tournament, I'll just give you a gameloss.

Oh, ok. I guess the "deck checkers" will just be responsible for posting the decks at some point, if the consensus is that they should.

Speaking of which, what are other people's thoughts on revealing decklists?

I think it would be more interesting to not reveal the decklists. There can't be much discussion about the ToC if you don't have weekly pairings.

Back to the tournament format: I think we'll be able to get more people to sign up if it isn't all in one day, because I don't know how many people are willing and able sit in front of their computer for most of a day. I'd be more inclined to split it over 2 or even 3 Sundays at this point, personally.

Radagast: I don't know, that just takes a lot more scheduling and to the best of my knowledge past ToCs never worked that way.
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Radagast
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« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2003, 12:35:43 pm »

Past ToCs never worked any of the other ways we are considering either. As for scheduling, I don't know much about that as I've never organized a tournament, but I don't think it's much harder than splitting it up. At any rate, it was a just an idea.
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MoreFling
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« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2003, 12:56:11 pm »

Splitting up is terrible. I think we can just have multiple ToC's. If you cant make it to this one? too bad, you'll have another chance in 1-2 months, pending the interest and availability of a capable TC.

Like I said before, revealing decklists is useless for one-day tournaments, and it is actually more interesting play to be in the dark what you're up against. One-day events are the way to go.

Maybe we should just open a poll, and see if people WANT to participate. If we get more than 60 yes's, we can assume a full-day tournament, but if we don't, really, I wouldn't be too scared of the lenght.

In any case, I'd be willing to dedicate a sunday evening + night to running it.
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SummenSaugen
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« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2003, 02:28:44 pm »

I'd be content to give it a try, but I would vote for revelation of the decklists anyways.  Whereas we may not be discussing it much during the tournament, unregs and non-players very well might be.  And in which case, they can bring up points with decks while action is going on, and see exactly how things pan out rather than trying to look back in time.  I think I explained my thoughts really poorly, but oh well.
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Spizzard
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« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2003, 06:38:58 pm »

I'll have to agree with SummenSaugen on this one.  Part of the fun for me, while not being in the last ToC, was looking at the decklists and following the action.  It would be easy enough for each person to post their decklist in a ToC deck thread.  That way  people not participating, can follow a specific deck.
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CrazyCarl
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« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2003, 08:44:45 pm »

Quote from: Spizzard+June 12 2003,16:38
Quote (Spizzard @ June 12 2003,16:38)I'll have to agree with SummenSaugen on this one.  Part of the fun for me, while not being in the last ToC, was looking at the decklists and following the action.  It would be easy enough for each person to post their decklist in a ToC deck thread.  That way  people not participating, can follow a specific deck.
It may have been fun to follow, but it was incredibly frustrating to play in.

I'm all for a 1 Day event.  Can't make it?  Try next time.  It's how the world works Razz

Carl
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Spizzard
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« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2003, 07:22:15 am »

What I meant was a one day event,  just with decklists posted somewhere for the others to follow.  Results could be posted periodically between rounds.
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2003, 08:27:51 am »

Alright, I guess we should just go for a single-day tournament then. Sorry for coming across as wishy-washy, I just wanted to make sure we had at least considered all the feasible options first.

The argument that posting decklists for the sake of nonparticipants is interesting, and certainly a valid one in my opinion. If MWS has a checker I think posting sideboards is unnecessary, though.

Slightly updated info:

------------------------------------------------------------
ToC VII

ToC (Tournament of Champions) VII is an online Vintage tournament for the TMD community. All registered members are welcome to participate. The following people will be running it:

Judges
MoreFling
<other judges>

To participate in this tournament,

1) Download Magic Workstation v0.93

2) Register

Post on <thread> with username, email, IRC handle, AIM handle, whatever.

Send decklist to deck-checkers (if we post them ahead of time).

3) Be on <mIRC channel> at <time> on <date>.

-Be prepared to stay online for the duration of the tournament.

------------------------------------------------------------

The date could be decided by having people sign up and express their preferred date at the same time.

MoreFling: how do you suggest handling matches where both players are welled? This is especially relevant if it's a single-day tournament.
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