ToCVII?

[Hyperion]

Previous ToCVII discussion

Here's a link to a previous discussion that was started several months ago about possibly organizing ToCVII. It eventually petered out due to what I assume was lack of time, interest, or both. Now that the first "TMD Online Invitational" is over and it's been almost a year since ToCVI, I figured it'd be worth trying to revive a ToCVII discussion. With the impending July 1st metagame now is as good a time as ever to have it.

I don't have the knowledge or the software to organize an online tournament, but I'd be willing to help out in any other way possible (i.e. collecting and checking decklists, sending reminder PMs for people to complete their matches, etc.). I'd think that having a group of several people to manage things like this would make life easier for the main tournament organizer and in general make things run a lot more efficiently.

Anyone else interested in making this happen?

[Zherbus]

I'd be interested in participating. I would rather use Magicworkstation than that god awful Apprentice crap, though.

[dcorban]

Here's another vote for Magic Workstation.

[Grand Inquisitor]

is workstation shareware?  i'd be intersted as well (if its open to more than just bd'ers)

[Zherbus]

Magic Workstation Website

Yeah it's free. No, its shuffler doesn't seem as crappy as apprentices but I'll let someone else explain why.

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ June 08 2003,13:23)is workstation shareware?  i'd be intersted as well (if its open to more than just bd'ers)

Click here if you want more information about Magic Workstation.  It's still in its beta stages of development, but it's 10x better than Apprentice ever was or ever will be.  As well, you can register MWS if you want a couple extra small features unlocked - and the banner ads gone, obviously - but it's not necessary at all.  It's worth checking out, even if ToCVII doesn't take off anytime soon.

EDIT:  Steve beat me to the punch, but I still recommend giving MWS a try.

[Hyperion]

I guess it would ultimately be up to who runs the tournament, but I can't see why it would be a problem (requiring people to use Workstation). After Zherbus responded here about MWS I downloaded it myself to check it out, it's easy enough (and free, of course).

I'm assuming it would be open to TMD members (as opposed to just former BD members) since it's being organized here, as opposed to there.

[Zherbus]

I'd rather it be open to everyone, personally.

[Fishhead]

Quote Now that the first "TMD Online Invitational" is over ....

I believe the AxeMurder v. K-Run match is still waiting to be scheduled.  Not that you really need to wait before organizing the next event I suppose.

[MoreFling]

MWS creates huge lags between players. That's the problem.

[Black Explosion]

Yes, MWS is quite shitty because of lag on my computer. Course, I run it on a 366 mhtz...  

It was really frustrating to play with it, but I can certainly agree that it would be a better platform (if I didn't have that problem).

[Matt The Great]

Well, it's truly inhuman to have these things stretch out to a period of five months, so we'd really need to compress this a ton, be it via limited signups, or just holding the first couple rounds on IRC one Saturday. Yeah, it sucks for people many timezones apart, but I think it's better to lose a few entries at the beginning rather than have a 55% dropout rate because it's dragging its ass.

So, I support this venture as long as some provision exists for it to be done in, say, one month's time. Otherwise, forget about it.\n\n

[MoreFling]

Actually, Matt is spot-on. We can't run these things the way we've been running them, that just sucks too much. I'm willing to give up a sunday (is easier for me) to run a TMD ToC.

[Hyperion]

I certainly agree that ensuring the tournament spans a reasonable amount of time is a good idea. However, as I see it, having it all in one day would mean that:

1) The rounds will have to be timed to keep things from getting really backed up, and thus there will be draws. But it's hard to enforce a time limit in an online tournament.

I personally don't like that but if that's what it takes to make it work, so be it. It'll mean the tournament organizers really have to be on top of things and people have to abide by the honor system for it to work.

2) To keep things manageable, there will almost assuredly have to be a limited signup. Having to manage 200 players all at once, for example, would be an inhuman task.

[MoreFling]

1)I have a rock solid experience for running these things. All I ask for is a little assistence in the judging room if we get more than say, 50 or 60 people.

Signups prior to the event, 24h before it starts I would close the entries.

2)200 people is 9 or 10 rounds I guess. But we won't get up to 200. People actually have to check in.

[Magimaster]

Can we use both Apprentice and MWS?

I mean, as BE said, MWS is kinda slow on his...and I myself haven't tried it yet (will do tonight) but since my computer is ass I'm expecting the same results...so would it be okay if the 2 people playing were using the platform of their choice?

[MoreFling]

not if the tournament is on 1 day, no. I would collect seccodes / decklists. And I'm pretty sure they don't match in between the programs.

I would really, really want to use MWS, but the lag problems the current version has, are just unbearable.

[Kheoinn]

How do you determine who gets to play in these? If it is completely open, I would like to play .

[MoreFling]

Well, I can make it member-only, to at least keep it to a 5 or 6 rounder.
If we open it up completely, there's no telling in how many entries we could get.

[Kheoinn]

Err. I meant any member of TMD. That means not like the TMD Invitational, where the person who started it got to choose was in it (at least, thats how it looks from the "outside.")

It wouldn't be a Tournament of Champions if any person can play in it. This is a TMD ToC, and, as such, we're trying to figure out who is the champion of TMD.

Thus, I would suggest have a submission limit of 30 or something, and having it open to any member. If at all possible, I would like to submit early so I do not miss out because I wasn't there during the exact moment that the application thread was posted (which, incidentally, has happened numerous times in multiple different places.)

[Nimrod]

Tournament of Champions is just a title that comes back from the days of Beyond Dominia, when it wasnt that much wrong, the ToC is a tourney for the community (and the community here is pretty much the same, which is the reason that made the name carry on), so its an open tourney for the community, or at least it was, if this is going to change I would call it otherwise, since it would become a different thing. It would be convenient to clear that back then, the ToC was more like a tourney between friends who also happened to be some of the best t1 players in the world, and that HAS changed indeed to some degree.

Anyway, I think that both players should decide on their own what software to use, be it apprentice, mws, or even aim or irc if they trust each other that much, it it was the case that it would be run the same way as always, which I personally hope, because I cant stay for a whole day on my PC, not even sundays with very rare exceptions.

If you are going to make this tourney wide open, then it might be the best way, but I personally preffer to set some restrictions, like, past droppers not allowed or something, anyway, thats up to the TO, and Im sure as hell not going to do something like that.

[Hyperion]

Quote I have a rock solid experience for running these things. All I ask for is a little assistence in the judging room if we get more than say, 50 or 60 people.

Awesome! Then we'd be foolish not to take advantage of your experience and willingness to run it.

RE: Apprentice, MWS:

Obviously, if the tournament is a single-day event that can't happen (giving players the option of using either). However, I think it would be for the best to relegate it to one or the other anyway. First and foremost, by doing this you avoid arguments about which player has to use which program if they prefer one to the other. Furthermore, if in fact the programs function differently (which they do, as far as I know) then it doesn't make sense to have both being used during the tournament anyway. If MoreFling is willing to run the tournament, I think it should be up to him. We could also have a poll I suppose, but I don't want to go overboard with polls for each organizational decision that has to be made .

I haven't really seen anyone opposed having this open to the entire TMD community, so that seems like the best option.

If people want to call it something other than ToCVII, whatever, it's not that important. As I understand it the Tournament of Champions is a tradition of sorts among the online T1 community, so why not continue it?

Time to start sorting details out here. Eventually something like this should be posted in the Community forum or on the front page, I guess. Correct/address any mistakes for me (at this point, I'm making the assumption we're going for a single-day event, organized on mIRC, MoreFling judging and taking security codes):

------------------------------------------------------------
ToC VII

ToC (Tournament of Champions) VII is an online Vintage tournament for the TMD community. All registered members are welcome to participate. The following people will be running it:

Judges
MoreFling
<other judges>

Deck-checkers
(would take submitted decklists and make sure they're legal as of July 1st)
walking dude
Hyperion
<other deck-checkers>

<any other people needed to help run the tournament>

To participate in this tournament,

1) Download <Apprentice or MWS> software. <Give URLs for where to download>

2) Register

Post on <thread> with username, email, IRC handle, AIM handle, whatever.

Send decklist with security code, maindeck and sideboard clearly labeled to deck-checkers.

3) Be on <mIRC channel> at <time> on <date>.

-Be prepared to stay online for the duration of the tournament.

------------------------------------------------------------


Details that need to be sorted out:

1) If tournament will be "traditional" format, single-day event, two-day event, whatever. It's impossible to make everyone happy, so either the TO should decide or we should put up a poll. Exact date and time need to be finalized.

2) Whether MWS or Apprentice will be used. As I mentioned already, I think allowing both is a bad idea. Either TO decides or a poll goes up, but in this case I think it'd be better to just have the TO decide because voting on MWS or Apprentice seems silly.

3) Who will be responsible for collecting decklists. I'm certainly willing to help do that, and it'd probably be a good idea to have at least a couple people do this to split up the work involved and have fewer mistakes in the process. If you want to do this, either say so on this thread or PM me. In past tournaments, having the maindeck and sideboard made public seemed to work well, so I suggest doing the same thing for ToCVII as well.

4) Who else will help MoreFling judge, if the tournament is hosted on IRC and we end up needing more judges.

5) anything else I forgot.

[Kheoinn]

Regarding the ToC name: My bad. I was never a member of Bdominia, so I don't have any knowledge of it. Sorry about that confusion.

Regarding the "all in one day" idea: I'm personally opposed to this, as it excludes multiple people. First, it excludes anyone in a different time zone who doesn't have a whole lot of free time. For instance, the tournament might start at 2:00 in the morning where they live, and you can't honestly expect them to be there. Second, it excludes people who don't have enough free time to spend on a mIRC channel all day. I know many people have other commitments periodically during the day, and that would completely prevent them from participating.

What I propose is a strict length to rounds. 1 week per round (perhaps less) would be fine with most everyone. If the matchup isn't reported by then, it is a draw between the two. Would that work out with everyone? Of course, the specifics with numbers would have to be worked out, but that would be decided when/if we end up using this.

Another question. Will there be a cap to the amount of participants in this contest? As someone said before, it is difficult to manage a tournament with 40-50 people. Judging by the number of members we have here, and adding in the unregistered people, we could quite possibly have over 100 people. Would it be right to put a member cap of say, 40 or 50? Again, numbers would be worked out later, as the idea has to be OKed first.

Thanks.

[Hyperion]

Quote What I propose is a strict length to rounds. 1 week per round (perhaps less) would be fine with most everyone. If the matchup isn't reported by then, it is a draw between the two. Would that work out with everyone? Of course, the specifics with numbers would have to be worked out, but that would be decided when/if we end up using this.

That's what's been done before, what people seem to be unhappy with, and what prompted the idea of having it all in one day in the first place. With rounds taking 1 week then a 6-round tournament would be a month and a half, which is getting to the point where it's pretty long and people may have trouble committing to such a long tournament. But people should continue to give feedback regarding the format, of course.

Regarding a cap: let's decide on the format first. Unregistered users shouldn't be allowed to participate anyway, in my opinion.

[BurningIce]

I'd like to play, but I will not give up a whole day on the weekend to sit in front of a computer.  It's what I do every day at work, and that's enough for me.

[TracerBullet]

I am in agreement.  Set a one week time limit on rounds, that should be more than enough for 2 people to work out an hour to sit down and play.

[MoreFling]

The whole problem I have with these weekly rounds, is that people don't report anything, or don't inform me if they are dropping. That's what happened in the TMD OI, and is really annoying. Also, not being able to play a game during 7 days, who's fault is it? General timezone conflictions? Or just 1 person having a busy week?
Really, I personally very much favor a 1-day tournament. If you want, I can probably get some sponsorship and access to a pool of judges at www.magic-league.com, but ofcourse that would mean outside entries.

To conclude: I can't make everybody happy, but IMHO, a 1-day event is the best possible option.

[Zharradan]

Regarding MWS:
I have never seen any of these lag problems mentioned earlier - and MWS has both a game and match clock in it to make running a timed event possible.

[MoreFling]

A timed event means I run a timer script on mIRC, comparable to the one DCIr runs.

[Grand Inquisitor]

i think a one day event is the most reasonable option.  however, time zone differences will be an obstacle for this choice of action.  what if we had different brackets depending if you are from us or europe.  this would 'regionalize' the early rounds, and then later rounds (t8 or something) could be played at player's convenience.  just a thought to allow as many as possible to enter, but not exclude people because of the one-day issue.