Thank you for the Suicide Black Primer

[Anonymous]

Hi!

Just wanted to thank you for the Primer on SuiBlack.

Currently I just play extended, but am building the Black deck featured in your article,and also keeping a look out for other good type 1 cards.

All of the primers are very informative and I like the way they are setup, showing the pro's and con's of each deck type and what to expect when playing with or against them.

This is a great site.

dan
 

[Matt The Great]

We're all glad you like it.

However, Legend, the guy who wrote the Suicide primer, no longer plays Type One.

[Schmakt]

I'm a huge fan of his Suicide primer too.  I remember first reading the BD primers and enjoying them alot a while back, and Legend's Suicide primer was the first thing I've read since then that just REALLY had me hooked.  It was definitely well-written, and the information he provides is invaluable. (Unless, of course, you like the Zombie version of Sui )

If you liked that primer tho, you should check out Zherbus's Nether Void primers as well.  I recently converted my Suicide build into a Zherbus-style Void deck, and I'm having a LOT of fun with it.

Enjoy the dark side.

[Anonymous]

why has he stopped playing?

has he lost interest in the game as a whole? or just type I?

[Puschkin]

That´s a loooong story to tell! In Community was a thread about his department I think. One thing ahead: he thought he invented accelerated blue like it is today and many people claimed that it was only a logical evolution, not the effort of him alone. Yet he called his version "Legend Blue" which resulted into a fully blown out flame war and ended with Legend being banned from Beyond Dominia, the grandfarther of this site. Community related problems were not everything, though, so check out the other threads. If you read them and still need more info, report back here, I´ll dig up something and PM you.

[Zherbus]

He sold all his cards and no longer plays as of July. It just wasnt his thing anymore.

[Melchior3]

I'm sad to hear that, I'm a big fan of Legend Black and the primer, which was great.
 

And while I'm new to themanadrain, I've only ever played type one, so to see someone leave over that incident isn't a good thing.  

Hopefully great decks will continue to evolve without Ed the Legend.
It is also worthy to note, that Oscar Tan's  Control Players bible is a great read.

[Anonymous]

Oh, ok thanks for the info.

I remember that Beyond Dominaria site.

I started playing at the end of Legends, quit at Weatherlight.

Just got back in 2 weeks after Onslaught release and broke out the old cards.

There aren't many sites left such as this one so hope it stays up.

[Anonymous]

OK everyone,

I built the Legend deck and have been playtesting it.

Didn't own a Lotus, so added a Swamp
Didn't own a Jet, added Sol Ring.

Instead of 4 Negators, used 2 Negators, 2 War Beasts.

( as an aside: somewhere on this site or somewhere else in a thread about sui-black i believe, someone said you can sac the negator for it's effect, thus cancelling the other sacrifices, but that isn't true. I double checked Oracle)

My main problem is drawing too much mana. I know you need it for the nantukos, but it seems there is way too much in this deck.

4 Rituals, Sol Ring, 18 Swamps, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip.

I know the Strip and Wastes are utility, but sometimes you DO play against people with basic lands, so they aren't as effective when you draw them.

Take away the Wastelands (leaving in the Strip, since it can do away with any land) that leaves me 27 mana sources in a 60 card deck which is supposed to be (using term loosely) a speed deck.

Any thoughts as too what I should do? Or if my changes were bad since I didnt have Lotus or Mox? I'm considereing buying a Jet but other suggestions are appreciated.

[j_orlove]

So you had 28 lands, took out the 4 wastelands, and now have 27 lands?  

The wastes are very important versus most good decks in T1 (keeper, TnT, and many others). Free, uncounterable land destruction is good. It'd probably be better to cut a few swamps instead, if you really feel you have too much mana.

Quote ( as an aside: somewhere on this site or somewhere else in a thread about sui-black i believe, someone said you can sac the negator for it's effect, thus cancelling the other sacrifices, but that isn't true. I double checked Oracle)

Uh, okay, but you can find the correct ruling in our rules mill as well.  

[Anonymous]

Sorry, must not have typed it clearly.

I didnt take any lands out.

The only difference is that I added a Sol Ring in place of the Mox Jet (which helps since i'm using 2 War Beasts) and I added a Swamp in place of the black lotus.

[Schmakt]

generally, the Sol Ring isn't great in Suicide since pretty much everything you play requires black mana.  Glad you pointed on the War Beasts, as that makes it look a little better.  I'd say to keep an eye on that and possibly look to replace it with a swamp if you notice that it sits uselessly in play.  It's also a Mox Monkey target that isn't TOO difficult to hit, so removing it will help make your opponent's monkeys pretty much dead cards.

As for the Negator question, you're right.  If the Negator takes a hit from, say, a bolt, you can't sac him to avoid the other two sacrifices.  But, if something weird happens like:

Attack with Negator
Blocked by Jackal Pup + Mogg Fanatic
*Damage on the stack*
Sac Mogg to do a damage to Negator

Then you can sac the Negator from the single Mogg Fanatic damage to avoid sacing the other permanents due to combat damage.  That's the only type of situation I can think of where that would be helpful.  Hope that made a little bit of sense.  Good luck with the deck.

[Anonymous]

Quote I'm a huge fan of his Suicide primer too.

Yeah, I'm a fan as well. But I did write an article recently on StarcityGames.com to try and explain why the Sarcomancies make sense, at least theoretically and in the control matchup.

Of course, now that I read the article again, I think it needs to be rewritten in a legible manner, but let's not go there right now and concentrate on the reason for which I'm taking this thread back up.

This reason is to get your opinion on whether Suicide Black (and not a control black deck such as Nether Void) should run Sarcomancy.

An example of a build with the sarcomancy is just below:

Mana: 27 sources

16 Swamp
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Disruption: 14 cards

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Powder Keg

Creatures: 17 cards

4 Sarcomancy (technically not a creature, but let's not be petty shall we? )
2 Flesh Reaver
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Nantuko Shade

Other: 2 cards

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard (in flux):

1 Sol Ring
2 Powder Keg
4 Masticore
2 Dystopia
2 Perish
2 Planar Void
2 Contagion

This listing is by no means a final one, but it build on from Legend's build, from which it differs this way (I'm considering Legend's "Mixed Metagame" sample decklist):

-1 Swamp
-2 Powder Keg
+4 Sarcomancy
+2 Flesh Reaver
-2 Masticore
-1 Nantuko Shade

As you can see, I've removed some more controlish and slower elements in favor of faster beats and anti-control elements. This makes the matchups against control more favorable as your deck is faster and more threat efficient, while you topdeck (slightly) less land that won't be of as much use.

Obviously, the aggro matchups suffer, but not as much as some might think, as the sideboard contains all the control elements that were used in Legend's build, going back up to 4 Powder Kegs and 4 Masticores, as well as adding the sol ring to ramp back up to 28 mana sources, as the curve shoots back up with the inclusion of these cards.

A controversial choice (even for me) is the 2 Powder Kegs main instead of the Null Rods in Legend's list. The reason for those is the growing presence of multiple builds of miracle grow and gro-a-tog that are springing up, especially with the recent unrestrictions.

Now that I've covered some of the aspects above, and that you have a prospective build to look at, I'm awaiting your opinion:

Does Sarcomancy belong in Suicide Black? Please try to give me some explanations, such as match up relevance, as it will help me make a better decision for my next type 1 tournament here in Montreal.

Thanks for reading through all of this (long oh so long) post,
Ciao, Kash <who is posting for his first time on TMD, so hello everybody!>

[Anonymous]

i personally think that the better sui build is the one without sarcomancies or carnophages, the reason why is because you over extend too much with the zombies. for example if you play first turn dark ritual and zombie, zombie, zombie thats 4 cards. if they play balance you just lost 4 cards, you could argue it might make the opponent discard more cards but thats not always the cause.

if you play first turn dark ritual negator you only used 2 cards and you will be doing 1 less damage then if you had 3 zombies.  of course against spot removal or abyss having more creatures could help.  the main problem i see with the zombies is that they are creatures with no evasion and no abilities and they do only 2 dmg.  against an aggro deck they are sub optimal since Tnt can simply block you easily stompy can block you and sligh can just burn your zombies. theres been many times when i've played sligh against sui black with zombies and after burning their sarcomancies they are sitting there taking like 1-2 damage each turn from the sarco enchantment.  sure there will be explosive games where you play 3 zombies first turn and flesh reaver second turn and just win but after playing a zombie version for awhile i've found it's horrible against any kinda creature deck and less disruption means combo decks will have a better chance against you. imo the following creatures are the only ones that should be used in T1 sui black

Negator - i don't think this needs any explanation, despite it's immense draw back a 5/5 trampler for 3cc is just too crazy not to use

hippies - probably even more feard then the first turn negator is the first turn hippy

shade - you have to use this guy to know how incredibly good he is, the amount of damage he can do is insane

warbeast - good sideboard against abyss and aggro decks, the 4 toughness stops sligh and stompy much better then zombies

masticore- the killer SB creature against sligh and stompy or most aggro decks, it can block dreadnought and regen or something similar to other fatties

flesh reaver- really only good against a combo or control, very horrible against anything with creatures, this guy is a metagame call

[Anonymous]

Quote (Guest @ Mar. 10 2003,23:46)i personally think that the better sui build is the one without sarcomancies or carnophages, the reason why is because you over extend too much with the zombies. for example if you play first turn dark ritual and zombie, zombie, zombie thats 4 cards. if they play balance you just lost 4 cards, you could argue it might make the opponent discard more cards but thats not always the cause.

if you play first turn dark ritual negator you only used 2 cards and you will be doing 1 less damage then if you had 3 zombies.  of course against spot removal or abyss having more creatures could help.  the main problem i see with the zombies is that they are creatures with no evasion and no abilities and they do only 2 dmg. . theres been many times when i've played sligh against sui black with zombies and after burning their sarcomancies they are sitting there taking like 1-2 damage each turn from the sarco enchantment.  sure there will be explosive games where you play 3 zombies first turn and flesh reaver second turn and just win but after playing a zombie version for awhile i've found it's horrible against any kinda creature deck and less disruption means combo decks will have a better chance against you. imo the following creatures are the only ones that should be used in T1 sui black

Negator - i don't think this needs any explanation, despite it's immense draw back a 5/5 trampler for 3cc is just too crazy not to use

hippies - probably even more feard then the first turn negator is the first turn hippy

shade - you have to use this guy to know how incredibly good he is, the amount of damage he can do is insane

warbeast - good sideboard against abyss and aggro decks, the 4 toughness stops sligh and stompy much better then zombies

masticore- the killer SB creature against sligh and stompy or most aggro decks, it can block dreadnought and regen or something similar to other fatties

flesh reaver- really only good against a combo or control, very horrible against anything with creatures, this guy is a metagame call

Quote  against an aggro deck they are sub optimal since Tnt can simply block you easily stompy can block you and sligh can just burn your zombies

Hi Blue_Negator, the reason I put the sarcomancies in was that I feel suicide black should be good against control matchups (and combo as it has disruption and fast beats).

That doesn't mean I intend to do well against aggro, especially main deck

Basically, I agree with your points about damage ratios and vulnerability, but the main issue becomes speed:

a non ritual hand becomes a lot better when you have a one drop 2 power creature, especially against control. As for the damage you might suffer from the enchantment, well, the deck is called SUICIDE after all

Thanks for the input though,
Ciao, Kash

[dan_hellspawn]

Wow, this thread just came back out of nowhere.

Good to see Legend is back though.

I've since stopped playing SuiBlack because it just can't keep up with most of the decks in my metagame. Barring a god hand, scrub aggro decks would stomp me and everything else would find answers if the game reached the midgame. It was either win in 5 turns, or lose.

Nethervoid is probably the only monoblack deck viable in my environment.

[Anonymous]

Quote I've since stopped playing SuiBlack because it just can't keep up with most of the decks in my metagame. Barring a god hand, scrub aggro decks would stomp me and everything else would find answers if the game reached the midgame. It was either win in 5 turns, or lose.

I have a couple of questions for you Dan:

-is your metagame mostly made of aggro decks? (even bad ones?)

-what exactly is "everything else" and what kind of answers did you find yourself losing to?

-what do you feel doesn't work in the deck and why?

-given that you think you should win by turn 5, what kind of decklist were you running? (at least creature-wise, as the disruption remains mostly the same)

Thanks,
Kash

[dan_hellspawn]

Quote (Guest @ Mar. 11 2003,12:24)

Quote I've since stopped playing SuiBlack because it just can't keep up with most of the decks in my metagame. Barring a god hand, scrub aggro decks would stomp me and everything else would find answers if the game reached the midgame. It was either win in 5 turns, or lose.

I have a couple of questions for you Dan:

-is your metagame mostly made of aggro decks? (even bad ones?)

-what exactly is "everything else" and what kind of answers did you find yourself losing to?

-what do you feel doesn't work in the deck and why?

-given that you think you should win by turn 5, what kind of decklist were you running? (at least creature-wise, as the disruption remains mostly the same)

Thanks,
Kash

Kash000,

Most of the players here are Type II players, so their Type I decks are for the most part Extended Decks. These players when dipping into Type I, always lean to the cheaper aggro decks (Sligh, Green Stompy, Suicide Black to an extent).

If I would open with say, Swamp, Ritual, Negator, i would be responded to next turn with an Innocent Blood (who plays that in TI?  ) After going first this means im already down 3 cards plus a draw, and if I dont have a Sinkhole to destroy his first land drop, im at a big disadvantage.

One player was using MaskNaught, and extensive testing showed the only way I could win was to get in the 1st Duress. This also led me to splash Green for Pernicious Deed which was the latest version of the deck i was using which would help take out the Mask and the 1 costing Naught.

I would also find that if my opening hand did NOT consist of a ritual, Duress, and Hymn or Sinkhole, Control would have the upperhand.

Also in my meta are alot of monocolor decks, making the Wasteland disruption which is so valuable in healthy Type I environments, a dead draw.  

Testing against Enchantress and TNT at the last prerelease, Pernicious Deed was the only saviour in these matches.

I am at work now so i must keep this brief but I will come back later with more details.

[Zherbus]

One thing to keep in mind about Suicide Black is that it is only good against upper tier decks, but not very good against bad decks.

Adding green to it and making it closer to Matt's PT Funk (I named that btw  ) is a great way to play a similiar archtype in a sea of bad aggro/t2 decks.

[Anonymous]

Quote Adding green to it and making it closer to Matt's PT Funk (I named that btw  ) is a great way to play a similiar archtype in a sea of bad aggro/t2 decks.

Doesn't that make the deck vulnerable to the wastelands and non-basic hate that aggro decks run in general?

I'm assuming PT Funk runs cards like pernicious deed (I'm at work and don't have much time to look up decklists right now), but are the green cards powerful enough to condone the weakening of the manabase?

Ciao, Kash