I have been playing this for a few months now and I think...

[Flurp™]

I have been playing this for a few months now and I think it is a viable budget deck (well as far as budget decks go).

EDIT: This deck is for my scrubby meta filled with random aggro.
EDIT: cut kegs for tombs.
EDIT: -1 mountain +1 wheel

Welder MUD:

Lockies: 21
4 smokestacks
4 tangle wire
4 sphere of restince
4 chalace of the void
1 strip mine
4 wasteland

Utility: 12
4 goblin welder
4 grafted skullcap
3 ensnaring bridge
1 memory Jar
1 wheel of fortune

Kill: 2
2 Karn, Silver Golem

Mana: 25 (30 w/ strips)
4 city of trators
1 Tolarian acadmy
7 Mountain
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 grim monolith
1 lotus petal
4 metalworker
3 acient tomb

Ensnaring Bridge:  Without power this deck isn's fast enough to just run over aggro so these help a lot.

Most of the other card choices are pretty standard.  The powder kegs just havent been very good since i added in chalace, and I play in a unpowered meta so they dont kill the moxen.

I want to fit in some acient tombs or petrified fields, what should i cut?

[BreathWeapon]

Unless you are in a super scrub metagame with lots of random Aggro, you don't need the Bridge or Kegs. Sligh has completely fallen off the map and Suicide isn't doing too well either. If people actually play Tubbies or Madness in your play environment, than 4 Bridges in the sideboard is a consideration, but thats about it. Keg is just bad in wMUD. Chalice owns Moxen and Weenies.

You seem very Mana light. I would definately look to add 4 Ancient Tomb to your deck, and I would cut a mountain for a Mox Diamond. Its worth running.

[Crater Hellion]

on the contrary BW- sui is better than ever. However, you don't need to worry since it virtually can not beat artifact prison.

[Flurp™]

Quote Unless you are in a super scrub metagame with lots of random Aggro, you don't need the Bridge or Kegs

Well I am in a super scrubby meta, but i dont need the kegs.

I dont want to get mana flooded, but I am going to test some tombs (2 or 3).

as for mox diamond I didnt run one because i didnt really have anough big draw power for it, but in this deck its the opening hand that really matters so i will test 1 in here.

[Sytupal]

yeah - don't have to worry about this sui player.  artifact will trash me play by play every game.

[Flurp™]

What do you think is the optimal number of red sources for this deck?  It runs only 4 red cards but needs to be able to cast them consistantly.

[Sytupal]

8 isn't enough along w/petal?

[BreathWeapon]

Seven with a Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal should be more than enough. Considering your playing budget, i'd keep an eye out for Gorilla Shaman. If you don't see him, 4 The Great Furnace is worth running ... you need all the juice you can get.

For grins, you may want to try out this budget version of Artifact Prison. Its based on "Dead Bolt," and i've found it fun to play against the kids.

"Budget Bolts"

4xLoadstone Myr
4xStatic Orb
4xHowling Mine

4xGoblin Welder
4xTangle Wire
1xMemory Jar

4xSphere of Resistance
4xChalice of the Void

4xMetal Worker
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
1xTolarian Academy
4xAncient Tomb
4xCity of Traitors
7xMountain
1xGrim Monolith
1xSol Ring
1xMana Vault
1xMana Crypt
1xMox Diamond
1xLotus Petal

You can gain total advantage from Howling Mine and Static Orb by tapping them with Loadstone Myr. Tangle Wire will effectively neutralize the opponent into a permanent lock with a Welder on the board. Once your opponent is pinned down, Loadstone Myr comes with the beets. Its my favorite budget deck at the moment, mad props to Baron Sengir for its conception.

[CharlesXavier]

I like wMUD better than the Deadbolts, although I haven't played it. In budget, since their isn't access to Workshops or Moxen, sometimes if the lock doesn't come up quick enough, what do you do against a Moat? At least wMUD has Smokestacks. I believe Smokestack is very important, since I've played games where I've almost killed myself to Mana Crypt and Vault if I didn't have a Smokestack, I was playing Sligh and I Chalice @ 1, didn't draw the Welder that game anyways. My build is pretty similar with Flurps, besides the fact that I don't play Kegs, but play 3 Ancient Tombs, Mox Diamond and Wheel of Fortune. If you play in a scrubby meta, I would personally -4 Mountain for 4 Great Furnace, although Keg for 0, Deed, etc screw you up. It works well with Welder, Academy and Metalworker.

[BreathWeapon]

Who plays with Moat?

If your killing yourself with Mana Vault/Crypt, you can still Weld it out.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

has anybody tested lightning greaves here yet?
it gives your welders and metalworks a big boost and which also means early fast mana for early futile locks.

[Mykeatog]

Lightning Greaves is unneeded, and non effective.
This card only helps a welder, has no effect without a creature, and takes up spots in a very hard to fit deck. No way, no how, no good.

Here at Hadley we have been testing some of the best tech in Mirrodin. I piloted wMud featuring Mind's Eye over Shitcap to a Win in the local 25 guy Saturday tourney. Something you should start considering is this amazing card.

[Toad]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Nov. 18 2003,13:00)Here at Hadley we have been testing some of the best tech in Mirrodin. I piloted wMud featuring Mind's Eye over Shitcap to a Win in the local 25 guy Saturday tourney. Something you should start considering is this amazing card.

Why do you want to run Mind's Eye over Grafted Skullcap ? It's more expensive (The 1 mana difference does matter. For 5 you have Memory Jar, see the difference in power) and makes you spend 1 non Workshop mana or more a turn to draw cards. Furthermore, Skullcap has a nice built in dump effect which can win you games.

I'm sure you are going to mention Hurkyl's Recall. I don't think this has to be taken into account. There is way less decks packing Recalls. Rack and Ruin, Overload, Meltdown, Pulverize, Energy Flux are all more versatile/powerful. Furthermore, against decks that can effectively pack Hurkyl's Recall (Fish, MonoU), Chalice for 2 as soon as possible should already be a no brainer (stops Null Rods, Merfolks, hard counters, Stills, etc). I've never ever been Recalled since I started to design and play Welder MUD. Never. In 5 months and hundred of games.

[Mykeatog]

We got alot of Hurkal's here. There is nothing better than winning the game immediatly by paying U1. Idealy I have the chalice, but that doesn't always happen. Moreover, there are 25-28 non workshop mana generators in every build of wMud I have seen, which means there will never be a problem getting this guy out. Drawing not only during your opponents draw step but forcing them to wait with there draw spells until a time when you will not get a symetrical effect is awesome. Even brainstorm is a choice they just won't want to make anymore.

I don't think that the argument about Memory jar is effective at all. I mean, I am using one. Mind's Eye isn't as good as the Jar sure, but lets not pretend skullcrap is breaking the universe the way that jar is either. I understand that the idea of spending mana on an effect isn't great, but once you see it in action, you just might see it differently.

I noticed that you said something about how this was not as effective a discard outlet as skullcap. I agree fully, but what I don't see is the downside to this. I know that with a resolved welder in play there are tricks that can be pulled off, but there are other times than when you have skullcrap/welder (which is ideal) where you want to draw into things that will be useful to you in the next couple of turns.

These are just a few of the reasons why I find Mind's Eye to be the best option for card draw in wMud (Budget or none).

[BreathWeapon]

I have to agree with Myke on this one, Mind's Eye is pretty awesome. Not only is it a draw engine, but it is a complete deterrent vs Control players. All of a sudden Fact or Fiction doesn't look soo good ...

The CC difference is pretty negligible for this deck, and on the bright side, with Karn it turns into a 5/5 instead of a 4/4. The "upkeep" of 1 colorless seems to be off set by the cards ability to supress the opponents draw manipulation. The loss of the discard outlet doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in play testing, and it was never "all that" anyway. Being able to keep your hand has its own merrits, like allowing you to play REB effectively out of the Side Board. You can afford to drop thins thing earlier than Skullcap if you have the Mana for added draw power, without any fear of discarding your hand too soon. I bet the person with Mind's Eye would own the player with Skullcap in the Mirror, and thats becoming more and more important.

[Mykeatog]

I outline the entire argument here

I think it is something that all workshop players should read regardless of what other engine they use.

Edit: Link no work.  
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....t=11916

First URL fixed. You had http://http://(url.etc)

-Jacob\n\n

[Flurp™]

BreathWaepon:

Quote i'd keep an eye out for Gorilla Shaman. If you don't see him, 4 The Great Furnace is worth running ... you need all the juice you can get.

I do not see many gorilla shamans, but I dont think I will run furnaces.  I do see enough artifact hosers, keg, and deed to make the furnaces a real liability.  Even though they have good metal worker synergy, I find that after I get a metalworker out I usually have ebough mana.  Their goblin welder synergy is more inportant but I dont think its worth it.

As for the alternate budget prison, I really like wMUD with the tombs replaceing the kegs I can lock consistantly by turn 4 without disruption.


Minds eye vs Grafted skullcap:

I see skullcap being superior to minds eye.  Skullcap's drawback of corse is that you discard your hand at the end of each turn.  In most cases This barly hurts me at all, but as mentioned hurlies recall not becomes much stronger than you.  Now this deck usually drops 1 or 2 lock parts first before it can just drop its hand, unless a metalworker is drawn.  This is different from powered wMud where you drop your hand much faster.  Against hurlies recall it is an advantage to drop a few quick lock parts first because it forces the opponent to have more mana to be able to play it during your end step.  If a hurlies is resolved durign the endstep while skullcap is out it is very bad, but my meta has much more aggro than control.
Minds eye has the ability to draw more than one card if the opponent is also drawing, but as stated before I paly vs more aggro than control so this dosent help all too much.

Quote The CC difference is pretty negligible for this deck

The cc difference is not always negligble in this deck becuse it is unpowered the mana is very tight and the 5 compared to 4 wont always make a difference, but at times it does

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Nov. 18 2003,04:00)Lightning Greaves is unneeded, and non effective.
This card only helps a welder, has no effect without a creature, and takes up spots in a very hard to fit deck. No way, no how, no good.

Here at Hadley we have been testing some of the best tech in Mirrodin. I piloted wMud featuring Mind's Eye over Shitcap to a Win in the local 25 guy Saturday tourney. Something you should start considering is this amazing card.

well for one, this is a budget deck.
unlike its complete powerehouse counterpart, there are indeed several "free" slots to make up for the speed loss the moxen, lotus and workshops left behind.
now i have to be honest with the fact that budget wMUD is only next in my list of "to be perfected" decks and tho i playtest sometimes, i consider myself to be on shaky grounds to make a solid stand.
however, i do feel your response was rather absurd.
i smash everyone in extended with this deck's far cousin and there, lightning greaves is key for fast unloading of opening hands and of course, and often overlooked, for protection from targetted removal.
considering the fact the StP is still one of the most common form of critter removal (together with burn), it's abilities are nothing to sneeze at.
this deck is about synergy, as i feel it to be everytime i test the budget version (not online, that is).
no welder or fast mana in your opening hand, mulligan!
that's my stand in this situation.
why say you'll have no creature in play anyway?
i mean, i know its possible to keep the pressure up without welder tricks, but id rather mulligan if i can't unload my hand fast enough and keep up the pressure with metalworkers (early fast mana) and welders (do those tricks).

[Flurp™]

Lightning Greaves can be good, yes, but what would you cut for it?

[Abhorsen105]

Mind's Eye is an amazing card against control. I was playing keeper against Mykeatog and even with disenchant on a stick and no artifacts in the graveyard he smashed me because of mind's eye. Even against combo and aggro you can use it on their draw they get each turn. The activation cost (or technically triggered ability) doesn't seem to be a problem.

[BuboniC]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Nov. 18 2003,09:58)I have to agree with Myke on this one, Mind's Eye is pretty awesome. Not only is it a draw engine, but it is a complete deterrent vs Control players. All of a sudden Fact or Fiction doesn't look soo good ...

Fact or fiction?! Who cares about that? Think of Brainstorm-Any draw effect, Fact or fiction there being 1 in every deck doesnt make a difference as much- but with any draw effect in any deck this is good.

Also: I may use Minds eye in SB vs. control/hulk. But I may try out psychogenic probe in SB vs any decks with fetches/ tutors/ shuffle effects. but this may be uneccesary. Also: Powder Keg has pproven much strunger than it seems, expecaily in an Aggro envirement. in a deck of MUD thgat uses Bridge should use grafted skullcap for sure- and i think any other builds may do a combo of both- like 3 skullcap, 2 minds eye? This will be good because you can draw during there turn and because grafted skullcap effect of discarding your hand at end of turn, and minds eye can fill it up for the mean time. Ill be testing both too see which one fits in budget and nonbudget MUD.

[CharlesXavier]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Nov. 17 2003,20:45)Who plays with Moat?

If your killing yourself with Mana Vault/Crypt, you can still Weld it out.

The instance that I pointed out was I was playing against Sligh and had a Chalice @ 1 without a Welder...

Anyways, where I play Skullcap would be strictly superior to Mind's Eye, since obviously the lower casting cost, discarding is nice for the Welder, works well with Ensnaring Bridge(you won't believe how many times I've died to 1/1's because I never had a Skullcap to get rid of my hand) and especially in the budget version where you run 3-4 Tombs, 4 City of Traitors, you have to take a lot of burn just to draw a card for their draw step.

[Flurp™]

What do you think about wheel of fortune in main?  It could be nice if drawn with metalworker early on but it might be dead too much.

[CharlesXavier]

Quote (Flurp™ @ Nov. 20 2003,17:07)What do you think about wheel of fortune in main?  It could be nice if drawn with metalworker early on but it might be dead too much.

I personally play it over a land, and I haven't had too many problems with the -1 land. So far, I would say its dead about 50% of the times(when Skullcap is out). If not, it is a great topdeck. First turn Welder and second turn Wheel isn't too shabby either. It's single handedly won me a few games.

[Flurp™]

put in wheel over 1 mountain, and it is working great.

EDIT: After the inclusion of the tombs I think that this deck is consistant enough to take out the ensnaring bridges.  I am considering 2 mindslavers and 1 mox diamond in their position.  I know that mindslaver sounds weird but in testing it has been great.