Wizards Wrap-upGuess the card is completed, and wthe next...

[Josti]

Wizards Wrap-up

Guess the card is completed, and wthe next thing i thought of was posting here, and looking at the mana cost, wich is stil three generetic mana!!!

All the other steps are included with the wrap-up as usual.

now on the end mark predicts that the card will see some toernament play, and will have a serious inpact on the metagame.

"And with that, “You Make the Card #2” officially comes to a close. I look forward to Fifth Dawn so we can see what impact your card will make on the metagame (and unlike Forgotten Ancient, I predict this card will see some real tournament play)."

I really like to see that when fifth dawn is released...

Josti

[Phele]

Tormods Crypt and Planar Void seem to become more and more usefull!

[Tijnie]

neh, I think this is a nice card for the game. something like isho. Scepter, nice on paper but before you have a real scary deck, you need alot more so I don't know if its going to make a hug impact

[BaronSengir]

The card can also combo with zuron orb and fastbond for infinate life and infinite mana

[BreathWeapon]

Well, atleast I have a use for the ol' Fastbond after GAT died

[jhaggs]

Quote The card can also combo with zuron orb and fastbond for infinate life and infinite mana

This is a 3 card combo, with one of the cards being restricted. This is an extremely unlikely senerio in type 1. Further, its a three card combo that doesn't win you the game. Crucible is a very interesting artifact and for right now I can only think of one deck that could really benifit from its addition....Landstill.

[BaronSengir]

I beg to differ, jhaggs. Didn't the TurboNevy rely on Trade routes, Fastbond, Glacial Chasm, and Horn of Greed and THEN a sickening dreams to win? It was pretty fun  

[BuboniC]

Quote (jhaggs @ Nov. 18 2003,10:19)

Quote The card can also combo with zuron orb and fastbond for infinate life and infinite mana

This is a 3 card combo, with one of the cards being restricted. This is an extremely unlikely senerio in type 1. Further, its a three card combo that doesn't win you the game. Crucible is a very interesting artifact and for right now I can only think of one deck that could really benifit from its addition....Landstill.

THis is not true at all- it is a three card combo- but in a deck with alot of disruption(most any competitive decks do) then this is a two card combo- you use 4 wastelands and a strip mine too waste away their land every turn, zuran orb gets you atleast stalls an opponent for 5-6 turns(if you have counterback up and/or playing vs. aggro) If by then you don't have a way too get infinite mana(Fastbond) and infinite life, then why do you need too kill them? Use 1 or 2 SB Geae's blessing against Dragon, and this deck will be very solid- and in a keeper like build you can basically use 4 fastbond (1 demonic, 1 vampiric, 1 enlightened and 1 fastbond.) and if a *Gasp* three card combo is so hard too pull of then how does Long(sometimes) and Dragon pull it of so much? Not too mention The Shining(Combo Keeper)

[z28camaro]

This card has been talked about for some time.  It definately has a ton of potential.  One of the problems I see with it being too powerful is the fact that it is good on it's own and combos very nicely with popular cards like Z Orb and Fastbond.  If it is absolutley for sure that this card will be printed I will be expecting people to break this quickly.  

Z

[centroles]

dark rit it out on turn one, play in place of sinkhole in sui black. stripmine/wasteland each turn. good game unless you have power.

interesting but not broken, not compared to chalice of the void etc.

[Jakedasnake]

I think people are overthinking this card. Imagine it in Keeper; the mana denial aspect is GREATLY improved. Imagine Keeper destroying a land of yours every turn, then dropping theirs when it's convenient. This slows the game down Quite a bit, which is what Keeper wants to achieve. Unrestricted, I'd run two in my build.

Please note that this is all speculation, so I'd definitely test. In fact, I will right now.

[Josti]

Quote Please note that this is all speculation, so I'd definitely test. In fact, I will right now.

Just for interest, please post some results here if you like to. i'm very interested in the impact of this card  

Josti

[Matt The Great]

I actually started making keeper builds with this a long time ago - maybe a couple weeks before Scepter and Chalice were leaked. If you want to 'combo out' I suggest running a splash of green and sideboard Enlightened Tutor, crop Rotation, or both (to wish for) - they really help you set up the Fastbond/Crucible/Strip combo. Of course you don't need the Strip half so much as the other two. Even for such a deck, two Crucibles was the right number - with three I kept drawing multiples.

[centroles]

i think this card would be absolutely incredible in welder mud. play 5 strip effects. you can sac your lands to smokestax etc.

[Motrax]

The more I think about it, the more I like the card in welder MUD. It has great synergy with Smokestack, allowing you to easily keep two counters on the thing when you don't have card drawing effects yet.  Aside from the obvious advantage you get from running five strip effects, Crucible recurs City of Traitors, allowing you to play more aggressively early on.  And it gives added protection against opposing strip.

With that said, I would only run 2-3 of them in the deck, as they can be dead cards at times.

[centroles]

actually what interests me most about this card is a budget build. particularly since all the land this deck would play including fetchlands would undoubtedly make jewelery mana acceleration not as important.

cards to abuse

standstill
5 stripmine
dark ritual
mishra's factory
fetchlands

etc..

[Troggie87]

I think this card will be annoying, but not impossibly beatable like i've heard some people flame.  It'll be annoying to have that newly stripped bazzar re-played, or have them bazzar a stripmine into their graveyard and play it.....  Ya know that actually sounds kinda fun lol.  I think i'll try some of those wacky gaea's cradle decks i've always dreamed of in a wasteland-less world.  Nonbasics are worth looking at building decks around because of this, mabey it'll be more fun than people think.  It'll sure lead to some creative new decks, you can be sure of that!  

[CAMooSE]

Also, with the 3 card combo of Z Orb, Fastbond, and Crucible you can use alot of combo pieces.  I saw a deck that used barbarian ring as the kill.  And i think in a deck like this, there would be alot more room to add protection in the form of counterspells.

[Matt The Great]

Oh man, who among can honestly say they don't hope and pray for the return of Kjeldoran Outpost?

[z28camaro]

I would love to see Kjeldoran Outpost come back.  Squandered Resources could be sickly broken with Crucible of Worlds.  There are plenty of possibilities with this card.  It will add to the combo madness.

Z

[TimeBeing]

yeah fastbond going to see alot more play.
fastbond/orb/crucible is all the life you need, and all the mana you need, and can be played first turn. landstill could be re-worked into tier 1.

[Josti]

So, to conclude most of the talk: it can be a very good card for Keeper/Combo, and it may create some other ombo decks and it can bring green back into the T1 tier decks...

[Puschkin]

This will be an absolute staple in most casual decks. Every better deck has some strip effects and sac-able non-basics. Bit it will dull the game down even further. Its already very annoying if one is constantly bouncing his legends with Karakas so that you cannot kill them. Now, you have even to kill this artifact beforehand. And I'd better not imagine what Juan will do with this artifact in his annoying deck with those 4 Maze of Ith ...
Get Volrath's Stronghold back to get creatures back. Dont stop producing ridiculous amounts of mana with Cradle and Academy. Manlands just don't die.
In casual, it has come to the point that you absolutely have to play graveyard hate. If you dont have graveyard hate, almost any decks will replay virtually all their cards again and again.

[xrizzo]

With all this talk of combo decks, I haven't seen a single decklist.  I am not discounting the fact that a decent or better combo can be made, but since the card is finalized, what are you waiting for?

If it is going to be another good combo deck, then it shouldn't be that incredibly hard to build a foundation around the combo...

Enough speculation, start discussing decks.

[Josti]

Quote (xrizzo @ Nov. 19 2003,19:01)With all this talk of combo decks, I haven't seen a single decklist.

Thou have to test, before thou make a list.

I think we'll see some list origin in the near future, but also remember that the card is finalized, but far away from being released. and some other things come first, like the new B/R list in December.. that list can Change the metagame and the decks even more after mirrodin.

[Eddie]

Here is what I've been toying with:

// Mana
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Traitors
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith

// Artifacts
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
3 Zuran Orb
3 Winter Orb
3 Sphere of Resistance

// Blue
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Cunning Wish
1 Braingeyser
1 Tinker
3 Trade Routes (was Horn of Greed, but I was decking myself)
1 Power Artifact

// Green
1 Fastbond
4 Exploration
1 Regrowth
1 Crop rotation

// White
1 Balance
1 Enlightened Tutor

// Black
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

// Sideboard
1 Stroke of genius
4 Xantid swarm
2 Blue elemental blast
1 Aura Fracture
2 Naturalize
2 Powder Keg / Chalice of the void
1 Capsize
2 Decree of justice

The deck is not fast, and it is really hard to get the fastbond soon enough. Also, I'm using the slower trade routes over horn of greed. Decking yourself isn't nice (hmm, I could do psychatog kill just for fun ). And sacking horns to smokestack is also slow. Thus far, I only see this deck in fun casual play. Not tournament. Any ideas?

Edit: Note that I don't have that much power. I also don't have workshops. But the city's do their job thanx to the nature of this deck.

[Matt The Great]

If you want to get Fastbond more regularly, change the Enlightened Tutor into a third Cunning Wish, and sideboard the E.Tutor. Same thing goes with Strip Mine/Crop Rotation.\n\n

[BaronSengir]

the problem with enlightened is that it makes you one turn slower, unless you do it eot with 4 mana left open.

you could get a mox diamond. the discard a land seems to work synergy with this deck, especially if you discard lands with special abilities

if i remember correctly, crucible said that you can play land cards as if they were in your hand. how does this compare with wording of trade routes "discard a land card from your hand"  

I also don't see why you need power artifact, you could cut that and the geyser for a set of 4 wishes and the put your kill in your SB, i love decks that run kills in the SB, like long, and a version of reaplace. Just put in a Volcanic Geyser or a Stroke of Genius. Given the amount of any color mana you can make, a good utility wish sideboard might include:

// Utility Wishes
SB: 1 Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 Volcanic Geyser
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 5 Metagame Slots

or something like that. Stroke and Geyser are no brainers, but these wishes probably deal with creatures, spells to mis-d, hurkyl, recall. you could fiddle around with that yourself

[Eddie]

@Matt The Great(est): thanx. Seems great. That's upping my count to 6 fastbonds MD (albeit 3 slow ones, but better slow than never). Maybe I should cut balance and drop white MD altogether? I will also be siding out crop rotation. And maybe include a wasteland (upping the strip effect). I was also thinking about living wish MD, but it doesn't work very well.

@BaronSengir: I don't like mox diamond. Never have. Nevertheless, I will do some testing with it. You never know. It may actually have a use outside of sitting in a binder. Seems a deck like this does overcome the disadvantage. (Thinking of it, it seems good. If I topdeck it without land in hand, then trade routes solves this problem).

You can't discard from your graveyard with trade routes and crucible (as though it was in your hands does not mean it is). Crucible is a way of getting discarded lands back to play. So drawing a card will cost you 1 mana and 1 life each time (tap land for mana, and put it in your hand. Tap other land and discard land in hand for card. Replay land from graveyard with damage from fastbond. I know it's a lot of work. But it's safer than horn (gain 1 life and draw a card). Or maybe I'm just a wuss).

Power artefact is in it cause I wanted a second way of creating an infinite amount of mana. If I remove it, then Grim will go 2 (maybe for that mox diamond).

Thanx for the SB info. Haven't put much thought into that yet. Might seem a good idea (certainly the misdirection’s!), although I will probably change the braingeyser main for a decree of justice main, keeping a kill MD. The place I'll play this deck is not tournament level (deck isn't good enough) and thus features players with 80 card decks and ivory masks. I think I'll side in red elemental blast also (thank WotC for gemstones). Or another red kill?

Anyway, I don't think crucible will have a deck build around it at tournament level. It will probably see play in Keeper (strip away my friend) and WelderMUD (it's just awesome with smokestack. When playtesting yesterday, I had 30 permanents (including 7 angels from sided decree) when my opponent had 0). I actually like playing this deck. Just hope the CC of crucible doesn't go higher than 4 . Or maybe I should just start playing werlderMUD.