Here is the info you have all been waiting for...first......

[IAmFishMan]

Here is the info you have all been waiting for...first...the deck breakdown.

In return for all this work I'm asking that EVERYONE(not just top 8ers) write a tournament report of their Sunday(and maybe any partying the night before)...Let's hear about your adventures everyone!

Landstill - 1
Tendrils - 1
Grow - 1
Slivers - 1
UB Control w/ nether void - 1
RW Rector Tricks - 1
Pandeburst - 1
Hatred - 1
OSE - 1
Full English Breakfast - 1
W/R PT Junk - 1
Academy - 1
WW - 1
UG Tempo - 1
B/R/G Beats - 1
Trix - 1
UB Mages - 1
Madness - 1
Megrim Discard - 1
Elf Ball - 2
Stompy - 2
Void - 2
U/R Phish - 3
Trade Routes based decks - 3
Mask - 3
Sligh - 3
TNT - 3
Phish - 3
UR Phid - 3
Enchantress - 3
Mono Black w/out void - 4
Hulk Smash - 4
GAT - 4
Welder Mudd - 7
Dragon - 8
Long - 10
Keeper - 24!!!

And the top Eight Decklists...

1st Place... Adam Bowers w/ Dragon
4 Dragon
2 A Laquatas
2 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy
4 FOW
3 Durress
2 Compulsion
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Squee
3 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Lim DUl's Vault
7 SOLOMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

SB:
2 Reanimate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Xantic Swarm
3 Verdant Force
3 Stifle
1 Sliver Queen

2nd Place... Ben Taraskevich with GAT
2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Durress
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Vampric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning WIsh
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
1 Gush
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Demonic TUtor
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox EMerald
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Naturalize
1 Annul
1 Zuran Orb
2 Coffin Purge
2 Null Rod
1 BEB
1 Stifle
1 Berserk
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Smother

3rd Place... Andrew Stokinger with Dragon
4 Dragon
1 A Laquatas
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy
4 FOW
3 Durress
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Squee
2 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Careful Study
1 Cunning Wish
1 Deep Anal
1 Entomb
7 SOLOMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Underground River
1 Swamp
1 Island
SB:
1 Durres
2 Coffin Purge
4 Verdant Force
3 Stifle
1 BEB
2 Reanimate
1 Rushing River
1 Stroke of Genius

4th Place...Nate Gilfoy with UR Phish
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Curiosity
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Misdirrection
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Saphire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

SB:
3 Maze of Ith
3 Stifle
1 Null Rod
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Fire Ice
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Energy Flux
1 BEB
1 Boomerang

5th Place...Carl Winter with OSE
4 Mana Drain
4 FOW
3 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Fire/Ice
2 Cunning Wish
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Plague Bearer
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Misdirection
1 FOF
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wateland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Islan
4 Underground Sea

SB:
1 BEB
1 Fire/Ice
1 Read the Runes
2 Smother
3 Deep Anal
3 Rack and Ruin
3 REB
1 Vamp Tutor

6th Place...Max Joseph with PHISH
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Rootwater Thief
3 Manta Riders
4 Curiosity
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
9 Island

SB:
4 Maze of Ith
4 Energy Flux
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 BEB
1 Stifle
1 Disrupt
1 Null Rod

7th Place...Stephen Houdlette with GAT
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Psychatog
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Quirion Dryad
2 Fire/Ice
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Cunning Wish
2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Future Sight
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle
1 Coffin Purge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Crumble
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 FOF
1 Smother

Eight Place...Rick Argio with Dragon
4 Dragon
1 A Laquatas
3 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy
4 FOW
3 Durress
2 Compulsion
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Squee
4 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Lim DUl's Vault
7 SOLOMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Xantic Swarm
3 Verdant Force
2 Stifle
1 Chain of Vapor

[jazzy kat]

OK guys, now I wasn't there so I can't criticize too much, but how the hell did dragon steal so many top slots when there were at least 24 keeper/control players?


Did everyone forget to put tormod's crypts, planar voids, or withered wretches in your sideboard?

I am not getting down on anyone but combo ran wild (my least favorite type of deck...i like at least counterspelling or burning stuff) in a field with a good bit of control, even more when you add the mud players, what is up with that?

[Diaonic]

Quote Madness - 1

To bad i only went 4-3. Still an awsome event Ray, i can't wait for the next one.

[Jander78]

I played against, Keeper(IsoControl), 2 Grow, 2 Fish, 2 Long, and 1 OSE, with Dragon.  All besides the 2 Long.dec are control decks and I still managed to top 8.  If played right, Dragon has a decent game against control.

My tournament report can be found here.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Quote ...
OSE - 1
...
Elf Ball - 2
...
U/R Phish - 3
...
Phish - 3
...
Mono Black w/out void - 4
Hulk Smash - 4
GAT - 4
Welder Mudd - 7
Dragon - 8
Long - 10
Keeper - 24!!!

I would like to give a giant "wtf" to the two Elf-Ball decks, and major props to CrazyCarl for returning Mishra's Factory to its rightful position of Top 8 glory.

I, too, am interested in the breakdown of those Keepers into Chronics and Chalice-Keeper.

And what happened to all those Long decks? Does this tournament just finally show that an environment of hate makes it too inconsistent? (I'm especially curious since there don't seem to have been all that many Sphere of Resistance or Pyrostatic Pillar.) How many Chain of Vapor/Overload/other answers were those Longs running?

[P_f]

Hey there. The event was really fun although I went into the tourney with 2 hours of sleep...

Anyway, I played Pretty standard Weldermud with 2 MD jester's caps.

Here's a brief coverage of what happened to me:

Round 1: vs Pat Wood(Keeper)
Oh good. First round opponent is my playtest partner. Out of the playtesting, I've probably lost 15 games and won 5 so it didn't look good.
My memory is very fuzzy but I remember getting chomped down by 1/1s both games. Mox Monkeys and scepters did there share of kicking my ass...
Games:1-2-0
Matches:0-1-0

Round 2: vs John?(TnT)
Game 1 he dropped turn 1 welder and turn 2 survival. Wasn't really much I can do although the game dragged on.
Game 2 got my locks down while he drew crap.
Game 3, we didn't have enough time so he had to draw.:/
Games:2-3-1
Matches:0-1-1

Round 3 vs Turboland
Jester's cap owned him both games.
Games:4-3-1
Matches:1-1-1

Round 4 vs Random sliver deck
There's really not much to talk about. My opponent appeared to be a judge but I knew that after I bashed him to bits.
Games:6-3-1
Matches:2-1-1

Round 5 vs Keepr
Yay another bad matchup.
Game 1: I remember having my tangle wire countered and then he let me resolve a welder which surprised me. That's only because I didn't see his fire/ice. Then he racked and ruined some and made 4/4s.
Game 2: He didn't cast many counters but then again he didn't need to. Chalice for 2 was racked and ruined again. I successfully resolved 2 welders during the game both got killed my 2 fires. And then he mana leaked jester's cap and all was done for when I see 2 angels across the table.
Game: 6-5-1
Matches: 2-2-1

Round 6: vs Long
I knew this guy from my local store so that would make it 2 guys I know that I have played.
Round 1: He won the die roll, wheel of fortune my good hand away and gave me crap...
Round 2: I chaliced first turn he chained of vapored during his turn and went off. Biotch!
Games: 6-7-1
Matches: 2-3-1

Round 7: vs Stompy
Yup, at this point, I was totally out of the game but what the heck, I like type 1 so I continued to play my matches.
Game 1: I took away 3 berserks with my cap and dropped Karn which owns stompy.
Game 2: He just overwhelmed me with little green dudes...
Game 3: Turn 2 Karn says he lose.
Games:8-8-1
Matches:3-3-1

Here's some insight on the deck WelderMud. Extremely inconsistent and bombless. The only bomb in the deck is probably memory jar. Although the entire deck sports very very good cards, the only broken card seems to be memory jar. And the concept of broken cards wins is very true. The deck doesn't have any tutoring power which means I can't rely on winning with memory jar as often as I want to. Even playing 4 ofs of every card, I couldn't sport consistencies that exist in cards like demonic tutor.

Questions about WelderMud:
I've noticed mind's eye is quite good and may be better than skullcaps. What does everyone think about that over skullcaps?

There is a bazaarmud deck going around. To my surprise this deck works pretty well. The original argument is that the new draw engine is vulnerable to gravehate+landD while skullcap is only the suck against hurkyl. I've only tested this new innovation against Long.dec and the digging of bazaar and gamble really improves this matchup. What does everyone think about this new version?

[SummenSaugen]

Quote Questions about WelderMud:
I've noticed mind's eye is quite good and may be better than skullcaps. What does everyone think about that over skullcaps?

Mykeatog has been using it for a couple weeks now, and has had a thread up in Vintage for a few days.  It's a great idea, because otherwise you scoop to 1U.

Quote And what happened to all those Long decks? Does this tournament just finally show that an environment of hate makes it too inconsistent? (I'm especially curious since there don't seem to have been all that many Sphere of Resistance or Pyrostatic Pillar.) How many Chain of Vapor/Overload/other answers were those Longs running?

Long sucks in the northeast.  People play with blue spells here.

Quote OK guys, now I wasn't there so I can't criticize too much, but how the hell did dragon steal so many top slots when there were at least 24 keeper/control players?

The guy that won, Adam Bowers (iLL_DaWg) plays casually in Hadley all the time.  He's played the keeper matchup a thousand times.  Keeper players that don't have that kind of experience against dragon don't have a shot in Hell.  Adam managed to smash his way through three Keeper decks in the first three rounds, one of which being TMD's LoA.  Now whereas I wasn't following the other dragon players, I'm sure they also had their fun beating on control players.

Congratulations to those in T8 and even those that weren't but made the trip to Waterbury anyway.  It was a great tournament and I hope we can get another underway real soon.

[jpmeyer]

Because Dragon has a really good matchup against control?

[Sytupal]

I hope that I will be able to make it to this one.  I've had my share of tournaments but this would have by far taken the cake.  I really wanted to go to this one but i simply didn't have the time.  I plan on definitely going to the next one.

[LoA]

I stopped taking notes after round 4 when I was out of contention, so if anyone has anything games with me, let me know.

Round 1 vs. Chris Kitzmiller (judge)
Chris is a nice guy.  His deck seems to be some sort of Gro variant.  

Game 1: He has to drop real duals instead of fetchlands and my Wastelands go to work on him.  He Gushes to save some, I Drain it and drop a Shaman to eat his Mox and Sol Ring.  He can't really recover from that sort of tempo loss.  I resolve Ancestral, Skeletal Scrying, Time Walk and cycle Decree.

Game 2: We play Draw-Go for a bit and I end up with an active Library facing 2 River Boa.  I lose a fight over Swords so I can win a fight over Balance.  Down to 3 land, but one of mine is Academy (UUU) and one of my cards in hand is a Wasteland.  I Waste his Volcanic to work around a Stifle and Decree.  A few turns later, I win.  Interesting side note: it turns out he sided in Slice and Dice for my tokens.  Cutting off the red was the right play after all, but not quite how I intended it.

Games 2-0
Matches 1-0

Round 2 vs. Chris Vallas.
Chris is playing an elf explosion deck with mana dudes, Wirewood Savage, Ambush Commander, and pump spells.

Game 1:  He has to Paris.  I manage to keep the Commander off the board and Fire 2 elves.  Then I cast Yawgmoth's Will.

Game 2: First turn: Time Walk.  Second Turn: Brainstorm, Chalice of the Void=1.  Savage.

Games 4-0
Match 2-0

Game 3 vs Adam Bower
As you all know by know, Adam was playing Dragon and went on to win the whole thing.  There were a few people pimped out at the tournament but I think I'll have to give the prize to Adam for better accesories.  I hadn't played in a tournament in months and didn't do the kind of testing against Dragon I would've liked to.  I think Dragon is the best deck out there now.  Long can probably beat Dragon in some head-to-head matches, but Dragon is more robust against the rest of the field.

Game 1:  Adam either knows or guesses what I'm playing--but hey, that's why you scout.  His first turn Underground Sea-Duress (taking Ancestral, but leaving me with a decent hand) narrows down his deck to 2.  His second turn Bazaar lets me know.  I manage to accrue a decent amount of Dragon-hate as the game goes on.  At some point early in the game, he goes for the combo and walks into a Swords.  I get rid of 2(?) of his Bazaars, but I can't keep the last one off the table, so his graveyard is pretty full.  I swing with a Shaman and then 2, getting him down to 1 life.  He drops a Mox and a Land, Animates.  I Swords when I should've Stifled.  He gets the life he needs to Force.  I Stifle.  He drops Jet and another Mox and wins.  There was a lot of removing blue cards in there as well.

I realize somewhere around turn 6 I forgot to swing for 1 with my Shaman.    

Game 2: I'm pretty angry with myself about the Shaman mistake from the previous game and it shows early.  I Paris down to 6 but draw 7, so I go down to 5.  Luckily, I manage to get out UU on turn 1 anyway.  About 5 turns into the game his only permanent is a Bazaar and I've got a Sapphire and a Fetchland.  He drops an Emerald and an Underground and attempts to Animate his one Dragon.  The business cards in my hand are: Brainstorm, Stifle, ReB, Gorilla Shaman, and Swords to Plowshares.  My hope is to fetch for red, Stifle the Dragon, ReB the Force then munch his Emerald and hope to Brainstorm into some sort of LD.  I fetch for red, Stifle, ReB and he drops Lotus for Necromancy.  If I had gone for white, no Dragon to Necromancy.

Games 4-2
Matches 2-1

Round 4, vs. Dan
Dan's pretty quiet, but seems like a nice guy.  I know some people had issues with their opponents at this thing, but I had a pretty good experience with the people I was matched up against.  There was maybe one time in a later round when there was some confusion about mana in my pool, but we walked through stuff without needing a judge and everyone was satisfied.  I doubt that could ever happen at a PTQ.  Food for thought.

Game 1: Dan drops his entire hand of green creatures and Rancors by turn 2.  I haven't gotten around to putting Scepters in and I can't find a Balance.

Game 2: I drop Mox, Mox, Sol Ring, Strip Mine, Academy, Chalice=1 first turn.  It takes me forever to find my Decree, but I win handily.

Game 3: My opening hand is land, land, Mana Drain, Chalice, Impulse, Brainstorm, ?.  Pretty good, right?  He play Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Treetop Village, Skyshroud Elite, Skyshroud Elite.  Ouch.  Land-Brainstorm is a pretty weak follow-up.  I get the DT in hand but my white mana won't show up for the Balance.

Games 5-4
Matches 2-2

I play a few more round, but I know I'm out of the running and drop after round 6 to go nurse my sick fiance.

I've changed around 5 cards in my deck since the tournament but in the interest of full disclosure, I know my own errors contributed to my losses more than card choice.  I do feel my deck is stronger now, but I feel better about having learned more about strengthening my play in the future.  It's been too damn long since I played Magic with any sort of seriousness.

[Diaonic]

Quote Round 1 vs. Chris Kitzmiller (judge)
Chris is a nice guy.  His deck seems to be some sort of Gro variant.  

He was playing Snake's

[IAmFishMan]

Quote
Round 4 vs Random sliver deck
There's really not much to talk about. My opponent appeared to be a judge but I knew that after I bashed him to bits.
Games:6-3-1
Matches:2-1-1

That was my brother Rich...he is by no means a judge as he knows zilch about the rules but he was a great help running the tournament...he is a hell of a guy who loves to play fun as oppoesed to broken decks.

[BreathWeapon]

Wow, it would seem as tho' GAT is back with a vengeance. I'm still baffled as to why people are only running 2 Tog instead of 3?

[Lord of the Goats]

first off, long did badly because the people who played it played poorly (in my case as a result of a fever). having played long myself i know that play errors cost my round 1 and 2 losses. i didn't loose another round all day despite being matched up against control and dragon all day. dragon is easier to play so less mistakes are made.

second, if you atteneded please go here: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....t=12050

i have lost my deck and any info would be appreciated

[[Psychotic| Rain]

@Lord of the Goats: I was about to ask why Long.dec didn't make it Top 8, there's the reason not to restrict LED, Dragon just ran everything over, or that's what it looks like. Wish I coulda gone

[Lord of the Goats]

as far as i can account for:

me- sick w/ fever
nick(ursa's child)- played like shit
roche(mikeR)- played well, but not perfectly
bryce (klown)- no clue
i can also account for 3-4 other people who were either unfamiliar with the deck or unprepared for chalice.

i finished in top 16 (13th i think) and roche got like 18th or so.

basically, a lot of people picked long up without being able to play it perfectly....  unlike a lot of decks there's just no room for error at all. that's fine in a 4-5 roound tourney because you can give up 1-2 losses and still top 8 pretty easily. this was a 7 round tourney\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

I got paired against Bryce in round 6, when we were both 4-1, and I just destroyed him with welder mud. I had turn one chalice+sphere both games (although I did go second each game). It was pretty rough. I'm not sure what his other loss was, though.

I also beat Nick round 3, when we were both 1-1. He might have had the third game, but he played LED and then Mox Ruby, when I had a tapped Karn and untapped mountain. No mana for him.\n\n

[SummenSaugen]

Bryce's other loss was to Eastman, who was playing Keeper.

[BreathWeapon]

Maybe Long is over rated

[SummenSaugen]

To avoid a flame war, I will post nothing but facts.

Long has never won in Waterbury.

Long has never won in Hadley.

Long has never won in Poughkeepsie.

Long has never won in Cape Cod.

Long has never won in Syracuse.


Just about any other deck that was popular in the past two years has won in at least two of these places.  That is my reasoning for why long is not good.  If people still insist on flaming me for my opinion, I will be happy to read your PMs.

[Smash]

My god,   's army showed up in full force huh?

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (SummenSaugen @ Nov. 23 2003,18:18)To avoid a flame war, I will post nothing but facts.

Long has never won in Waterbury.

Long has never won in Hadley.

Long has never won in Poughkeepsie.

Long has never won in Cape Cod.

Long has never won in Syracuse.


Just about any other deck that was popular in the past two years has won in at least two of these places.  That is my reasoning for why long is not good.  If people still insist on flaming me for my opinion, I will be happy to read your PMs.

and yet myself, roche, and bryce did better than you... playing long.

honestly, a month ago i would have agreed with you but then i sat down and learned to play long. is long the best deck... idk, but it's showing in waterbury is not representative of it's capeability.

as has been mentioned, long is a hard deck to play for more than 5 rounds.... that combined with blatant net decking should account for the lack of long in top 8.  honestly i'd expect 1 maybe 2 long in top 8.

[SummenSaugen]

And I went playing Ninja, because I felt like playing something fun.  Did I say it was a good choice?  God no, the field was full of combo.  Did I enjoy myself?  Yes.

So saying you guys did better than me proves not a thing.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (SummenSaugen @ Nov. 23 2003,20:45)So saying you guys did better than me proves not a thing.

and neither do your statistics.

i know you played to have fun.... you told me at waterbury.

[jpmeyer]

There are two ways to look at this:

1) This deck is good/bad because it won/didn't T8
2) I won/didn't T8 because this deck is good/bad

They are two very different ways to look at it.  I personally prefer to use the second view since if you compare the Northeastern with the European T8's, they are usually very different.  If I just looked at the Northeast, I'd never see a Mishra's Workshop or a Lion's Eye Diamond, but if I looked only at Europe I'd never see a Decree of Justice.  Because of the contradictory nature of these results, I prefer to go with what my games show me.

[iLL_Dawg]

I've definately won tournaments in the northeast while playing Lion's Eye Diamonds.  Madness does exist. . . or at least it did, anyhow.  It definately won me some moxen and a whole bunch of packs in its day.

-=ADAM=-

[P_f]

Quote (SummenSaugen @ Nov. 23 2003,18:18)To avoid a flame war, I will post nothing but facts.

Long has never won in Waterbury.

Long has never won in Hadley.

Long has never won in Poughkeepsie.

Long has never won in Cape Cod.

Long has never won in Syracuse.


Just about any other deck that was popular in the past two years has won in at least two of these places.  That is my reasoning for why long is not good.  If people still insist on flaming me for my opinion, I will be happy to read your PMs.

I definitely think Long has a place in the top tier. Long.dec is the single deck that most people goldfish by themselves for hours. Goldfishing is not at all the same as playing against a deck, thus goldfishing does not equlal playtesting.

It seems to me most people that were playing Long 1)Netdeck 2)made many play mistakes.

I'm sure at the hand of a fully prepared and skilled player, a fully meta-ed Long.dec can go far.

BTW, did any Long.dec have any MD xantid swarms? I heard they kick ass.

[Smash]

Quote (P_f @ Nov. 24 2003,22:56)

Quote (SummenSaugen @ Nov. 23 2003,18:18)To avoid a flame war, I will post nothing but facts.

Long has never won in Waterbury.

Long has never won in Hadley.

Long has never won in Poughkeepsie.

Long has never won in Cape Cod.

Long has never won in Syracuse.


Just about any other deck that was popular in the past two years has won in at least two of these places.  That is my reasoning for why long is not good.  If people still insist on flaming me for my opinion, I will be happy to read your PMs.

I definitely think Long has a place in the top tier. Long.dec is the single deck that most people goldfish by themselves for hours. Goldfishing is not at all the same as playing against a deck, thus goldfishing does not equlal playtesting.

It seems to me most people that were playing Long 1)Netdeck 2)made many play mistakes.

I'm sure at the hand of a fully prepared and skilled player, a fully meta-ed Long.dec can go far.

BTW, did any Long.dec have any MD xantid swarms? I heard they kick ass.

I would rather MD chant. Not dead vs aggro, and lets you win turn 1-2 without waiting for an attack phase...

[P_f]

Quote (Smash @ Nov. 24 2003,23:06)I would rather MD chant. Not dead vs aggro, and lets you win turn 1-2 without waiting for an attack phase...

Against most aggro, you pretty much win. It is control that gives Long the most problems and swarm can not be duressed. Expecting you can win every turn 1 is a bit farfetched.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (P_f @ Nov. 24 2003,22:56)2)made many play mistakes.

BTW, did any Long.dec have any MD xantid swarms? I heard they kick ass.

i'd like to stress how important those play errors are. unlike in dragon, a small error will cost you the game by itself. with most other decks an opponent actually has to finish you off, long actually kills itself.

i don't think any long md'ed xantid swarms. i know my team tested them and found them unecessary despite expecting a lot of keeper. they're amazing, but largely uneeded. in hindsight md swarms wouldn't have won me any games.