Type 1 needs reprints to survive. If you look at th...

[Tha Gunslinga]

Type 1 needs reprints to survive.  If you look at the numbers, there are far more players than there are sets of Power, and when you factor in the amount of power cards that are locked up with dealers or sitting in people’s closets, it gets positively ridiculous.  The problem here is supply and demand.  The more Type 1 players there are, the more will want power, and with only a limited amount of power, most of those players will be out of luck.   With Type 1's popularity growing by leaps and bounds, the card prices grow too.  I just watched a NM Unlimited Black Lotus go for $600 on Ebay.  I’ve seen NM Unlimited Sapphires going $350, and Unlimited Ancestral Recalls going $275+.  Workshops are 400-500 for a set, and other powerful cards like Tolarian Academy and Mana Crypt are spiking, too.  I’ve seen people compare Type 1 Magic to chess, but there’s a difference between a $2500 deck and a $5 chess set.  While it is possible to be competitive with a budget deck, if you look at what wins tourneys, it's the powered decks.  Consistently.

     With that in mind, I’ve developed an idea for reprints that I think will work.  I believe that it dodges the Reserved List, but even if it doesn’t, the Reserved List is a fiction anyway.  WotC created it, and they can edit or dissolve it at will.  The lawsuits would be amusing, but doomed to failure.
Without any further ado, here’s my idea:

     First, Wizards creates a Type 1 players list.  You’d be able to sign up via the internet, toll-free phone number, and through the mail.  They’d have sign-up booths at tournaments, and links to the web signup on internet Magic sites such as TMD.  Once the list was set up, members would be contacted and would give general information such as name, date-of-birth, address, etc.  They would pay a set fee, somewhere between $50 and $250, and receive through the mail a boxed set of reprints, cards that would be legal for sanctioned Type 1 play.  

The rules would be simple:
One set per person

You may not buy, sell, trade, or borrow reprinted cards

If you quit Magic, it would be appreciated if you send the cards back, though this would not be mandatory



This eliminates the nightmares of prices soaring for reprints, dealers hoarding them and jacking up prices, etc.

By now, you’re probably asking, “But how would we ensure honesty on all these counts?”

The answer is simple:  The reprint cards will look exactly like the originals, except they will have the player’s name stamped on the front.  I’m sure Wizards could figure out a way to stamp them cheaply, easily, and so that they couldn’t be modified and the stamp couldn’t be removed.

Wizards could do this fairly cheaply, too.  At first, it seems like there would be lots of extra costs: creating the database, printing the cards, and stamping them.  However, there would be no cost of developing new cards, no months of playtesting, none of that.

     Another apparent potential problem lies in the enforcement of the “your reprints are your own, and no one else’s” policy, but this is easily solved.  Imagine you’re at a sanctioned Type 1 tourney and someone plays a Chaos Orb.  You don’t need to call a judge or even think deeply to know that it’s illegal, right?  If someone’s playing with 5 Dark Rituals, it’ll show up in a deck check, right?  All it takes is for judges to check that all the reprinted cards in a player’s deck have that player’s name on them, and once people got used to the reprints, they’d get used to the idea that these cards weren’t allowed to be in dealer’s cases or people’s trade binders.

     The boxed set would contain all the playable Type 1 cards that are difficult to acquire and worth more than, say, $5.  Obviously it would take some time to work up a list, but it wouldn’t be that difficult.  Eliminate anything that’s been reprinted in many sets as a common/uncommon, such as Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares.  Eliminate anything that’s restricted and easily obtainable, such as Balance or Sol Ring.  Eliminate anything printed after Urza Block, since that shouldn’t be too hard to find.  Eliminate cards that aren’t played in Type 1 much, such as Gaea’s Cradle and Serra Avatar.  Here’s my tentative list, so far:


[/b]The Reprint list: [/b]


Restricted (1 copy of each):
Mox Emerald
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Jet
Black Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Timetwister
Library of Alexandria
Mox Diamond
Mana Crypt
Vampiric Tutor
Tolarian Academy (?)



Effectively restricted (1 copy):
Power Artifact
Candelabra of Tawnos


Semi-Restricted (2 copies):
Moat
The Abyss
Morphling


Bah-Roken (4 copies):
Mishra’s Workshop
Bazaar of Baghdad
Illusionary Mask
Mana Drain
Force of Will
Nether Void
Bayou
Taiga
Savannah
Plateau
Scrubland
Badlands
Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Underground Sea
Tundra
Cursed Scroll
Berserk
Oath of Druids
Survival of the Fittest
Wasteland
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Intuition
Verdant Force
Masticore
Eureka
Sinkhole


Some mopping up:

Other reprint sets could become available, such as a casual one with cards like Gaea’s Cradle and Sliver Queen, and maybe a “Johnny” one with cards like Word of Command and Lich.

As cards become played more (like Illusionary Mask’s surge in popularity), additions to the set could be made and cards mailed out.

For reference, there are 1100 copies of each Alpha rare in existance;  3200 of each Beta, and 18,500 of each Unlimited rare.  This adds up to 22,800 full sets of power.  There are a lot more than 22,800 Type 1 players in the world, and much of the P9 out there is being sat on, held by dealers or players as an investment.  Even more is sitting in closets or even in unopened packs, and who knows how much has been thrown out or burned/flooded/lost in other ways.  Of course, this is compensated for to some extent by all the fake power that’s out there, whether sanded CE or home print jobs.

There are 20500 of each AN Uncommon 2, and 31000 of each U3, which means only 31000 Libraries and 7250 playsets of Bazaar of Baghdad.  There are 31000 of each Antiquities U1, which means only 7250 playsets of Mishra’s Workshop.

Would a reprint set drive card prices down?  I doubt they’d go down too much, and they’ve risen so much anyway that a small fall wouldn’t hurt.  I can’t see UL Moxes going below 175 in any case.

You’ve seen casual players playing with P9, right?  They could use CE stuff just as easily, and no one would care, but they don’t.  Demand for non-reprint power would be just as high, if not higher.  Strict limits on the amount of reprints out there would ensure that.  Furthermore, just like many players prefer Beta duals to Revised ones, many will prefer non-reprint power to reprinted stuff.

Would the power level of Type 1 tournies rise?  Yes.  Would this be a bad thing?  No.  Would it be nice to have fair tournies for once, instead of a few players being powered out and the rest having substantially smaller chances of winning?  Yes.

Would this result in n00bs everywhere playing with power? Maybe, but it’s not the cards you have, it’s how you use them.

Would deck innovation increase?  Yes.


Think Wizards would never do a box set, as it's too much work for too little profit?  They printed Collector's and International Editions, which had print runs of only 15,000 total.  These sets contained 363 cards each, and retailed for 49.95.  Collector's had to be redone, too, with square corners and a different back.  Yet Wizards could do a reprint set with under 150 cards, with only the name-stamping as an extra charge, and charge $200 for it.


In conclusion, I’m not saying that Wizards is likely to implement this plan, but it seems doable, at least to me.

Feel free to comment on anything, except whether reprints would be a good idea.  I’ve heard the arguments; I don’t need to hear them again.

[Nova]

I still don't see how this system could prevent people from selling them to another person.  It could make it difficult for that person to play someone else's reprints in a tournament, but not impossible.

Edit: why certain numbers of cards as well.  Why 2x morphling, for instance?\n\n

[Matt The Great]

Quote One set per person
You may not buy or sell reprinted cards
You may not play with reprinted cards that you do not own

The reprint cards will look exactly like the originals, except they will have the player’s name stamped on the front.

This is what the kids today call 'workable'? This is among the LEAST workable solutions I've ever seen. Why in God's name would Wizards care even half as much as this solution requires?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Quote (Matt The Great @ Nov. 20 2003,23:22)This is what the kids today call 'workable'? This is among the LEAST workable solutions I've ever seen. Why in God's name would Wizards care even half as much as this solution requires?

That's the problem.  If Wizards cared, we'd be set.  Of course, they say they care about Type 1, so we still have some sort of chance.

@nova:

The cards have your name on them, so they check your ID and match the name to it.

The numbers were what I thought made the most sense.  Nothing plays more than 2 Morphlings right now.  Of course, almost nothing runs it anymore, period.

[Nova]

Adding more work for judges, and the database, and if one of the reprint cards gets stolen, then what?

[Solaran_X]

Quote (Tha Gunslinga @ Nov. 20 2003,22:56)The rules would be simple:
One set per person
You may not buy or sell reprinted cards
You may not play with reprinted cards that you do not own
If you quit Magic, it would be appreciated if you send the cards back, though this would not be mandatory

I have a simple question, in regards to the 2nd rule. Which is "you may not play with reprinted cards that you do not own". Why would you even bother getting reprints if you already owned the cards? I don't see how this would help open T1 to new players, if in order to use the reprints, you must own original copies. That would still limit us to, at most, 22,800 "Powered" T1 players.

[kakeboy07]

I think this could be something that sanctioned type one would welcome.

I honestly find this to be the only way that type one would ever be able to support a PT...

The rules for buying and selling are a little wierd, but Im not going to get into that, as i think that makes it just too complicated.

Could you imagine. Having your own personalized set of P0,duals drains, etc just for play? This would enable wotc to have large type one events that are open to many more people who feel that they can compete; on a fundamental level at least, with the other players.

Having more sets of p9 around isnt the issue here, I think its creating a set that will be worthwhile to those who play the game. Giving out a set with your name & dci# would be sweet, and having it cost between 300-500 (i think that would "make it worth Wotc's time") would allow so many more people to pick them up and start playing type one competitively. basically Wotc already would have the database set up through use of the dci # system


Wizards currently doesnt care about type one as much as type II, because were not the ones shelling out $60 a box for the newest type II set. Instead now were shelling out $400 per box, and i think that would get their attention. (100-200 would be nice, but i truly think that Wotc would sell these for 299.95 or something like that, if it were to truly include "everything")

This could also pave the way for events to attain their own personal t1 card sets:

IE: Lets say KC is having a t1 pro tour event (doesnt that sound great?). Draft Event ladies and gentlemen. Thats right t1 drafting. They put out 3 of these "sets" and set 10 people down at a table.

Now that would be some amazing draft decks.

Best yet the event could have the cards printed with PTstop KC on the cards; how nostalgic would that be.

I think that some kind of registration process : ie a mass pre-sale from wotc, where you register your dci # and name, they check you off a list and take ur $, then mail you your cards on the release date, could and would work.



Im not saying it has to be this year, or that the cards above are those that should be included, but I personally think that WOTC will do reprints at some time or another, and the above looks to be a step in the right direction.


If it will help type one, through innovation, and bringing in new players to expand the tournament sizes, while still retaining the |>rokenness that is truly type one...

I would definately support it.


Joel Lamprecht (kakeboy07)

[Tha Gunslinga]

Quote (Nova @ Nov. 20 2003,23:38)Adding more work for judges, and the database, and if one of the reprint cards gets stolen, then what?

If a card gets stolen, you're screwed.  The thief wouldn't be able to do anything with it, though, so there wouldn't be much point in stealing it.

As to the "more work for judges" point, judges don't check every deck at every tourney to see that the cards aren't CE with rounded corners, do they?  It would be pretty obvious if your cards had different names on them, and if your DCI card had one name on it and your cards had another.  Checking a deck would take a minute or two, as you could just flip through it, glancing at the front of each card.  Besides, Wizards would be saving a fortune, since they wouldn't be spending time designing and testing new cards.


@Solaran_X:  Sorry for the confusion.  What I mean is that you can't borrow someone else's reprint cards or use stolen ones, as they'd have somebody else's name on them.

[Smash]

MTG is a CCG. If you don't own certain cards, tough cookies. Play chess instead.

Taking the CC out of the G is retarded, and doomed not to be supported by a company who sells magic.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Wow, I'm an adamant pro-reprints guy, but this is pretty crazy. The extra printing effort, the difficulty of enforcement, the total and complete vulnerability to theft (among other things)...I must say, Gunslinga, I think this plan would fail miserably. We should focus our efforts on thinking within the bounds of precedent, here, and there will never be a time when a plan like this will make sense for Magic, barring some kind of freak Twilight Zone-style events that I don't even want to think about. (Individualized name labels...wtf?)

Reprint thought should focus on a few things: (1) minimizing secondary market damage, (2) increasing accessibility, (3) maximizing WotC profit both short and long term, and (4) not making the whole reprint argument look like a collection of cheap junior high kids who want in on Power. My suggestion is to reread the third and fourth statements.

[Blofeld]

Wizards could just print up some new power and send out a few sets to all their premiere stores, thus putting more p9 in circulation while still making a good buck.

Prices for power wouldn't fall dramatically - but also wouldn't rise much further, due to increased accessibility...

Just a thought.
Blo

[Goblin Headbanger]

Quote (Tha Gunslinga @ Nov. 20 2003,22:56)Type 1 needs reprints to survive...

With Type 1’s popularity growing by leaps and bounds...

First, am I the only one seeing the contradiction here?  If Type I is that popular, it's survival already seems pretty likely at this point doesn't it?  I don't see sufficient incentive for Wizards and the DCI to go to all the trouble of implementing a reprint policy, particularly one as administratively difficult as this suggestion.

[cssamerican]

I think this idea is way to complicated from a manufacturing side. I work for a Global Co. that deals with this type of equipment, and mass run items like Magic cards are printed on a press. What this requires is WotC to make a plate (An image engraved on metal), then that plate which has ink on it is pressed onto the paper. My point is unlike a printer, a press cannot handle variable data, so you plan would require WotC to purchase new equipment and change their manufacturing process. This is not going to happen.

I believe if you ever see reprints it will be a set that is only Type 1 legal and is using the new layout with new art. This would make the new cards substantially different for collectors, and should not effect the secondary market as negatively as one would think. Let's face it, people would still want the old power for collector reasons, and bragging rights.

I do believe in time one of three things will happen
1.) WotC will make reprints
2.) Type 1 will eventualy just fade away.
3.) Tournaments will drift away from being sanctioned by the DCI and proxies will be the way the game is played.

Option 3 is how it is in my area (Although we have no tournaments were money or prizes are involved), every one plays with a large number of high quality proxies. Because of this my meta is fully powered. This makes the game very enjoyable to play, because no one is losing because lack of resources. It also lets you get a good perspective of what is broken or not, and I can say in a fully powered meta things don't seem as broken as people make them out to be. I guess it is kinda like back in 1700's British versus the American Indians, the British seemed very broken because they were powered (Guns, Cannons, and Naval Warships), I would bet the Indians did a little complaining about unfair it was that the British had all the power peices. The British versus the French is a different story, nothing seemed to be broken because both sides were powered. I think Magic is the same way.

Allowing people to be powered makes the game fun and challenging for everyone involved. And that is the way it should be, there is no reason to make the game were you have to spend thousands of dollars to be competitive. Say want you want, but power allows weaker players to beat better players just because the better player does not have power(Money). And that has got to suck!

Edited for Grammar

[Tha Gunslinga]

First of all, the printing difficulty would be minimal.  They could print the set in sheets, then cut them and run them past a stamper.  The process could be done fairly easily.  I mean, this is a multi-billion-dollar corporation here!  I'm sure they could figure out a way to do this fairly cheaply.

"Let's face it, people would still want the old power for collector reasons, and bragging rights."

I couldn't agree more, which is why I don't think this set will depress values.  Re-templating all the cards in 8th format and with new artwork would be pretty expensive, though, wouldn't it?  Weren't you complaining about this a minute before?



What I meant by the "Type 1 is doomed without reprints, but exploding in popularity" is that the laws of supply and demand will squeeze players tighter and tighter the more people play Type 1.  Power prices have nearly doubled in the last year or two.  If this goes on, then power will soon be out of reach for even more people.  Furthermore, there's simply not enough P9 to go around.


"Wizards could just print up some new power and send out a few sets to all their premiere stores, thus putting more p9 in circulation while still making a good buck."

And this stuff would rise on the secondary market, get hoarded, and end up costing just as much.  Wizards could make plenty of cash off a reprint set.


"Wow, I'm an adamant pro-reprints guy, but this is pretty crazy. The extra printing effort, the difficulty of enforcement, the total and complete vulnerability to theft (among other things)...I must say, Gunslinga, I think this plan would fail miserably. We should focus our efforts on thinking within the bounds of precedent, here, and there will never be a time when a plan like this will make sense for Magic, barring some kind of freak Twilight Zone-style events that I don't even want to think about. (Individualized name labels...wtf?)"


Extra printing effort?  You print a sheet, you cut the sheet, and you run it through a stamper which stamps it.  It's not that hard.

Difficulty of enforcement?  It would become common knowledge that these cards weren't to be re-sold or traded, and Wizards wouldn't need to enforce it.  This would also severely hurt the market for proxies, which Wizards ostensibly spends time and money worrying about.

Vulnerability to theft?   If my pimped-out Keeper gets stolen, I'm out $5000+.  That is vulnerability to theft.  If my reprints get stolen, well, no one else can use them, so why would they bother?  Besides, Wizards could figure out some sort of theft policy where you could get replacements or something.


"MTG is a CCG. If you don't own certain cards, tough cookies. Play chess instead."

Cost to play chess: $5-10 (board/pieces)
Basketball: $20 (ball)
Baseball: $60 maybe (glove, bat, ball)
Counterstrike/Doom/Quake/whatever: $50 maybe (for the game, since the computer you can use for other things)
Type 2: maybe $100-400 per deck, though 400 is unlikely.
Extended: 100-400 per deck.
Type 1: $4000 for the basics: P10, duals, fetches, Drains, Bazaars, Workshops, Abyss/Moat, etc.  Assuming you can get played cards.


See some sort of discrepency here?

[Smash]

Quote
Cost to play chess: $5-10 (board/pieces)
Basketball: $20 (ball)
Baseball: $60 maybe (glove, bat, ball)
Counterstrike/Doom/Quake/whatever: $50 maybe (for the game, since the computer you can use for other things)
Type 2: maybe $100-400 per deck, though 400 is unlikely.
Extended: 100-400 per deck.
Type 1: $4000 for the basics: P10, duals, fetches, Drains, Bazaars, Workshops, Abyss/Moat, etc.  Assuming you can get played cards.


See some sort of discrepency here?

Quote
Cost to play chess: $5-10 (board/pieces)
Basketball: $20 (ball)
Baseball: $60 maybe (glove, bat, ball)
Counterstrike/Doom/Quake/whatever: $50 maybe (for the game, since the computer you can use for other things)
Type 2: maybe $100-400 per deck, though 400 is unlikely.
Extended: 100-400 per deck.
Type 1: $4000 for the basics: P10, duals, fetches, Drains, Bazaars, Workshops, Abyss/Moat, etc.  Assuming you can get played cards.


See some sort of discrepency here?

Yes, and this is partially why magic is so enjoyable. In a real metagame, not every player will have access to every card. Take my meta for example. I am the only player with workshops. So... my girlfriend or I will be the only one playing workshop decks on a given week. However, I have no masks and 2 random bazaars. So I can't play dragon or mask. My friend has both, so he can play either one. It makes it very interesting that not every person can make every deck. If it is a proxy tournament and everyone plays the COOL deck of the week that was written about on SCG, (what is it this week, dragon, challice stax, or keeper?) the environment is a lot less diverse and a lot less fun.

If you play a powered pimped out deck, you worked your butt off for it. You can be proud of what you earned. You can whip out your beta ancestral and hear your opponent drool… only to drool back when he whips out his alpha dual land set. I am very proud of my power I earned, and know that anyone else can do it if they are so inclined.

Edit - on top of that your prices is wack.

Quote
Cost to play chess: $5-10 (board/pieces)

No... I played competitive chess. A good roll up board is at least $30-$40, and a good chess clock is around $100. You need both to be competitive.

Quote
Basketball: $20 (ball)

Don't forget the Nike's...

Quote
Baseball: $60 maybe (glove, bat, ball)

Bats can get pretty competitive. If you want to be as competitive as anyone in magic, you would need a super bat. It is not hard to spend $300 on a bat.

Quote
Counterstrike/Doom/Quake/whatever: $50 maybe (for the game, since the computer you can use for other things)

Have you seen "pro" FPS players? To really compete, you need a special system. It is pretty easy to drop 10k for the computer, and a nice chunk a month for a special net connection. Not to mention, the computer needs to be replaced every year or 2...

Quote
Type 1: $4000: 10, duals, fetches, Drains, Bazaars, Workshops, Abyss/Moat, etc.  Assuming you can get played cards.

This is retarded. You don't need drains, bazaars, and workshops. These are mutually exclusive. You pick 1 deck type, and make that. Abyss/moat are basically not played anymore, what a waste of money. Not to mention in magic, unlike baseball etc., you can play for free. It is quite possible to trade well and get whatever you want without a net loss of cash.

[Razvan]

I'm going to chime in here with something off-topic, but it's somewhat related.

A friend of mine recently sold his collection, and he even posted a link here TMD Trading Thread to his ebay auctions. The auctions are now over, btw. Anyhow, MarkPharaoh stated something that I believe we can all agree on:

Quote Good players aren't going to buy your cards on eBay, rich store owners who bids on EVERY OOP THAT HITS EBAY and will pay ridicious prices for them, players won't get them, greedy store owners and dealers will.  This is why I don't understand why so many freakin people come here and post an eBay link, it's one of the most expensive places to buy OOPS and T1/T1.5 cards and most of us here arer smart enough not to pay eBay prices.

I think this is hitting the problem on the nail. That's why the prices are going up like crazy. I have been searching for a Mox Emerald like mad (still am  ), and I've been searching eBay fairly regularly for it. I see them going up steadily, and then all of the sudden, I see something like:

Quote Mtg P9 Magic Beta Mox Emerald #1   $102.50   3d 10h 59m
Mtg P9 Magic Beta Mox Emerald #2   $103.51   3d 10h 59m
Mtg P9 Magic Beta Mox Emerald #3   $102.50   3d 10h 59m
Mtg P9 Magic Beta Mox Emerald #4   $102.50   3d 10h 59m

A dealer will bid on everything, then sit on it for a while, then sell them at twice the price in virtually one year. That's how it works, and crying about it won't solve much. This is an investment, and while there probably are better investement, these low-lives make their money this way.

So all we can do is to make sure that we won't try to squeeze the extra $10-20 by selling them on eBay to dealers. Instead just sell them to other players if you stop playing. That will somewhat, at least, stabilize the prices.

Keep in mind that it's a cycle.

Player A sells Mox Emerald for $200
Dealer A buys it off Player A (on eBay) for $200
Player B buys it off Dealer A (on eBay) for $220

Player C sells Mox Emerald for $220
Dealer B buys it off Player C (on eBay) for $220
Player D buys it off Dealer B (on eBay) for $250

Player E sells Mox Emerald for $250
Dealer C buys it off Player E (on eBay) for $280
Player F buys it off Dealer C (on eBay) for $280

This might only take a few months, or longer, but it does happen. And all of the sudden, the price of a Mox jumped from 200 to 280.

Dealers are in this to make money, so they don't care.

Do you, as a player, having played the game for what, approaching a decade, REALLY care to make $20 extra off your cards when quitting? At the expense of screwing others and new players?

I won't.

Anyhow, reprints of these old cards will never happen. Type 1 will NOT be accessible that way. But it's up to players to try to maintain some sort of sanity and not let these greedy bastards win this.

[thefram]

I personally have been won over by the "authorized proxy" idea. This meaning that WOTC releases a reprint set that is only t1 legal, with the new card face, and ONLY legal as proxies. This means (say we call the set "Gamma") you may only play 8 reprinted cards from Gamma in any sanctioned Vintage event.

That sounds much more workable than your solution.
They could even be new card face, so that a deck checker could easily distinguish them.

-Thefram

[cssamerican]

Quote (Tha Gunslinga @ Nov. 21 2003,10:19)First of all, the printing difficulty would be minimal.  They could print the set in sheets, then cut them and run them past a stamper.  The process could be done fairly easily.  I mean, this is a multi-billion-dollar corporation here!  I'm sure they could figure out a way to do this fairly cheaply.

"Let's face it, people would still want the old power for collector reasons, and bragging rights."

I couldn't agree more, which is why I don't think this set will depress values.  Re-templating all the cards in 8th format and with new artwork would be pretty expensive, though, wouldn't it?  Weren't you complaining about this a minute before?

Re-making plates for the new layout and Art is what they do for every set. This is what they are set up for. Varible data like your name has to change on every card printed; therefore, you can't use a press. Stamping by the way, is virtually the same process a press.

If I want to print off 1 million newspapers I will use a press because all 1 million newspapers will be the same.(Kinda like Magic cards, one run of 10,000 Ancestral Recalls.) If I wanted to print 1 million insurance policies with people's address and coverages I will use a printer because all 1 million policies will be different.(Kinda like what you are proposing, one run of 10,000 Ancestral Recalls, but all of them having different information on them.)

So you see, your solution as creative as it is, requires the company to change it manufacturing process from presses to printers. The reason it is a multi-billion-dollar corporation is because they do not make poor buisness decisions like changing their manufacturing process to put out one special set.

[Meddling Mage]

I think reprints would be great, but it will never happen. There are too many dealers and collectors out there with ridiculous amounts of cash invested in power who would be in an uproar if power were reprinted. They of course wouldn't become worthless, but I could see a big enough decrease in value to upset big collectors. I also think alot of type one players think of type one as an "exclusive club" of sorts, a place untainted by the many scrubs that can be seen playing less expensive formats. If all these scrubs were to suddenly invade the type I environment, that feeling would be lost. I think it would be economically in WotC's favor to make reprints, I just don't think they want the aggrivation from all the big collectors and dealers who are losing money.

[BuboniC]

I was reading an article on starcity i think about an interview, about the restricted list coming up, and the reporter asks something like: "Do you thionk the workshop based MUD is overpowering" and the DCI worker replies: "Whats MUD?". PLease people it doesnt matter how much you want this too happen it will lose WotC money. T2 players make them the most money, players play T@ not because they enjoy it, but because T! is too expensive. and if it sudddenly got a deal less expensive too have a good deck, T2 would be abandoned, and WOtC would have too make T1 tourneys more often, but they also make money from printing new sets, and people buying merchandise. But there is a positive:

1) WotC could be the only authorized dealer of these playable "reprint" power. Being caught selling will be punishable by banned from magic.

2) Remember it costs wizards a nickel too make a card- and too sell one for 40 is a grand income.

3) T1 will shut up, Chalice of the Void made T1 really hard too play- there are very few good budget decks: CHalice Black, Fish, MUD, and suicide.

4) MTG will be easier too buy into- instead of the unbearable amount it is too get a piece of power(AKA Cardboard)

Bassicaly- even though it might make you and the rest of budget players happy- Wizars wont be- Its not gonna happen any time soon.

[Smmenen]

Quote (thefram @ Nov. 21 2003,12:29)I personally have been won over by the "authorized proxy" idea. This meaning that WOTC releases a reprint set that is only t1 legal, with the new card face, and ONLY legal as proxies. This means (say we call the set "Gamma") you may only play 8 reprinted cards from Gamma in any sanctioned Vintage event.

That sounds much more workable than your solution.
They could even be new card face, so that a deck checker could easily distinguish them.

-Thefram

It is the only reasonable solution in my mind as it best satisfies all the interests at play.  At some point I'll make a bold proposal laying out the argument in detail, but its best to leave this things off for as long as possible.  

Steve

[BuboniC]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 21 2003,12:50)

Quote (thefram @ Nov. 21 2003,12:29)I personally have been won over by the "authorized proxy" idea. This meaning that WOTC releases a reprint set that is only t1 legal, with the new card face, and ONLY legal as proxies. This means (say we call the set "Gamma") you may only play 8 reprinted cards from Gamma in any sanctioned Vintage event.

That sounds much more workable than your solution.
They could even be new card face, so that a deck checker could easily distinguish them.

-Thefram

It is the only reasonable solution in my mind as it best satisfies all the interests at play.  At some point I'll make a bold proposal laying out the argument in detail, but its best to leave this things off for as long as possible.  

Steve

But that doesn't matter too Wizards!!!!!!!T1 players who cant afford T1 play T2- and thats exactly what they want!!! Wizards doesnt make any money from T1- but lots of it from T2. Also T2 players would switch too T1 cause they can afford it, and elf players would be playing fully powered long, Keeper, Tog, MUD, and dragon. Wizards would lose money, its a buisness- and a buisness's main real concern is how they make money- number 2 is are they happy. I think there has too be a solution for us players- but wizards has already put the road before us: PLAY T2 if you dont have enough money for T1- so we will make money from you.

[jpmeyer]

From my post in the other reprint thread:

Quote If Type 1 ever became more popular than Limited and Standard, It would soon die.  What would happen is that Type 1 would eventually become a completely explored format.  At this point, it would become extremely difficult for any new cards to enter the Type 1 cardpool.  The format would then stagnate and die because it would be almost impossible to have any change.  And then everyone would go back to playing Limited and Standard.

You solve Type 1, you kill the format.  Lots of people/lots of pros working on solving the format, higher chance that it'll get solved and effectively killed.

[Diddler]

Quote (Razvan @ Nov. 21 2003,11:43)I'm going to chime in here with something off-topic, but it's somewhat related.

...

Player A sells Mox Emerald for $200
Dealer A buys it off Player A (on eBay) for $200
Player B buys it off Dealer A (on eBay) for $220

Player C sells Mox Emerald for $220
Dealer B buys it off Player C (on eBay) for $220
Player D buys it off Dealer B (on eBay) for $250

Player E sells Mox Emerald for $250
Dealer C buys it off Player E (on eBay) for $280
Player F buys it off Dealer C (on eBay) for $280

This might only take a few months, or longer, but it does happen. And all of the sudden, the price of a Mox jumped from 200 to 280.

Dealers are in this to make money, so they don't care

....

I don't really like what was said here.  I think dealers keep buying/trading/selling healthy, even on eBay.  Everyone knows that they have to make money, that's the whole point.  But, they do provide a service.  Let me explain:

Dealers spend time (let's call it a job, ok?) on eBay doing the following:

- Knowing how much cards are selling for, and buying underpriced cards.  You must keep in mind that there is quite often risk involved in doing this, and I'm sure that they get ripped off quite often.  People on eBay (should) tend to shy away from "high risk" sellers (i.e. ones with few positive feedbacks), but dealers will take the chance because the price is right.  

- Maintaining a good reputation (some on eBay don't, however) of delivering cards in the stated condition.  If they can do this then they will not be "high risk" sellers, and people will bid higher and pay more because they know that they'll get the cards.

- Keeping a decent stock of cards so that buyers (like most of us) have a good selection.

People like us are making the prices, not the dealers!  If you don't like the prices, don't pay them.  How hard is that to understand?  If there was no market for the cards do you think that the dealers could still "make the card prices jump"?  I really don't think so...  You need to blame Players B, D and F for the increase in price!

Also, yes, these people are in it to make money.  All of us are doing something to make money (I hope).  Start looking at things from a perspective other than your own.

(I'm not a dealer, I'm just a person who can put himself in someone else's shoes)

[cssamerican]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Nov. 21 2003,15:04)From my post in the other reprint thread:

Quote If Type 1 ever became more popular than Limited and Standard, It would soon die.  What would happen is that Type 1 would eventually become a completely explored format.  At this point, it would become extremely difficult for any new cards to enter the Type 1 cardpool.  The format would then stagnate and die because it would be almost impossible to have any change.  And then everyone would go back to playing Limited and Standard.

You solve Type 1, you kill the format.  Lots of people/lots of pros working on solving the format, higher chance that it'll get solved and effectively killed.

Chess as we know it has been around for a couple hundred years, and people still can't agree on what the best opening play is! Why would you think a card game with 3000+ cards and growing with a bit of luck thrown in the mix would be so easy to figure out? I think you give the pros too much credit.

That is just my 2  cents

[BuboniC]

I personaly think Chalice brought this upon us- chalice effectively killed(in my meta) nearly all budget, so players in T1 cant survive without power/good T1. I personally think you have too be creative too get into type 1, you need too hate the powerful decks, not join them, because more money= better deck, so just build a relatively cheep deck that hates the powerfull decks. Thats how Fish came too be, and it turned succesfull. Budget will never be as powerful as the real thing, so dont try too take a fully powered decklist, depower it and build it, just hate the best, budget will live and all this proxy nonsense will diminish,

[Smmenen]

Quote (BuboniC @ Nov. 21 2003,13:03)

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 21 2003,12:50)

Quote (thefram @ Nov. 21 2003,12:29)I personally have been won over by the "authorized proxy" idea. This meaning that WOTC releases a reprint set that is only t1 legal, with the new card face, and ONLY legal as proxies. This means (say we call the set "Gamma") you may only play 8 reprinted cards from Gamma in any sanctioned Vintage event.

That sounds much more workable than your solution.
They could even be new card face, so that a deck checker could easily distinguish them.

-Thefram

It is the only reasonable solution in my mind as it best satisfies all the interests at play.  At some point I'll make a bold proposal laying out the argument in detail, but its best to leave this things off for as long as possible.  

Steve

But that doesn't matter too Wizards!!!!!!!T1 players who cant afford T1 play T2- and thats exactly what they want!!! Wizards doesnt make any money from T1- but lots of it from T2. Also T2 players would switch too T1 cause they can afford it, and elf players would be playing fully powered long, Keeper, Tog, MUD, and dragon. Wizards would lose money, its a buisness- and a buisness's main real concern is how they make money- number 2 is are they happy. I think there has too be a solution for us players- but wizards has already put the road before us: PLAY T2 if you dont have enough money for T1- so we will make money from you.

That assumes too much.  Type One would never have more than t2 as long as the Pro Tour is type two and type one is not.

Also, if they only allowed power nine to be proxied - or better yet, only the Moxen and Black Lotus, then people would not be able to play any deck they want - Masks, Workshops, Drains, Bazaars are still fairly expensive.

Steve

[Razvan]

From my own post:

Quote Do you, as a player, having played the game for what, approaching a decade, REALLY care to make $20 extra off your cards when quitting? At the expense of screwing others and new players?

I won't.

From your post:

Quote Start looking at things from a perspective other than your own.

That explains it enough for you? I do care about players. As in other than my own. I care about my own state too, though. Either way, that's why I am so pissed that this is happening.

And yes, the dealers are there to make money. So are burglars, thieves, assassins, slavers, etc... And yes, while these are illegal (although I see little difference between a pickpocket that takes my $20 bill from my pocket and a dealer than increases his prices by $20 for NO reason).

Quote You need to blame Players B, D and F for the increase in price!

What I don't understand is why I should plame players B,D and F? They would gladly have payed the $200 that A would have sold his card for.

Quote If you don't like the prices, don't pay them. How hard is that to understand?

I don't like the prices, I won't pay them, but I will do my best to try to do something about it. How hard is that to understand?

Quote If there was no market for the cards do you think that the dealers could still "make the card prices jump"?  I really don't think so...

By the same suggestion, the fuel companies can get together (um... they already do), and charge four times as much tomorrow as they did today for no reason. What could you do? If you have to drive 50 km to get to work, you WILL PAY the price. Blindly, no?

There's some stuff you can do. Boycott! Organize! Complain! Make your voice heard. That's what I am doing. Of course, you always run across people that want you to put yourself in the greedy corporation's shoes. Not much I can do about that.

Sorry, I don't mean to be so harsh on you, but your post really annoyed me. It's okay, I am over it  .

[Crater Hellion]

Quote (Smash @ Nov. 21 2003,12:25)

Quote
Cost to play chess: $5-10 (board/pieces)
Basketball: $20 (ball)
Baseball: $60 maybe (glove, bat, ball)
Counterstrike/Doom/Quake/whatever: $50 maybe (for the game, since the computer you can use for other things)
Type 2: maybe $100-400 per deck, though 400 is unlikely.
Extended: 100-400 per deck.
Type 1: $4000 for the basics: P10, duals, fetches, Drains, Bazaars, Workshops, Abyss/Moat, etc.  Assuming you can get played cards.


See some sort of discrepency here?

Quote
Cost to play chess: $5-10 (board/pieces)
Basketball: $20 (ball)
Baseball: $60 maybe (glove, bat, ball)
Counterstrike/Doom/Quake/whatever: $50 maybe (for the game, since the computer you can use for other things)
Type 2: maybe $100-400 per deck, though 400 is unlikely.
Extended: 100-400 per deck.
Type 1: $4000 for the basics: P10, duals, fetches, Drains, Bazaars, Workshops, Abyss/Moat, etc.  Assuming you can get played cards.


See some sort of discrepency here?

Yes, and this is partially why magic is so enjoyable. In a real metagame, not every player will have access to every card. Take my meta for example. I am the only player with workshops. So... my girlfriend or I will be the only one playing workshop decks on a given week. However, I have no masks and 2 random bazaars. So I can't play dragon or mask. My friend has both, so he can play either one. It makes it very interesting that not every person can make every deck. If it is a proxy tournament and everyone plays the COOL deck of the week that was written about on SCG, (what is it this week, dragon, challice stax, or keeper?) the environment is a lot less diverse and a lot less fun.

If you play a powered pimped out deck, you worked your butt off for it. You can be proud of what you earned. You can whip out your beta ancestral and hear your opponent drool… only to drool back when he whips out his alpha dual land set. I am very proud of my power I earned, and know that anyone else can do it if they are so inclined.

Edit - on top of that your prices is wack.

Quote
Cost to play chess: $5-10 (board/pieces)

No... I played competitive chess. A good roll up board is at least $30-$40, and a good chess clock is around $100. You need both to be competitive.

Quote
Basketball: $20 (ball)

Don't forget the Nike's...

Quote
Baseball: $60 maybe (glove, bat, ball)

Bats can get pretty competitive. If you want to be as competitive as anyone in magic, you would need a super bat. It is not hard to spend $300 on a bat.

Quote
Counterstrike/Doom/Quake/whatever: $50 maybe (for the game, since the computer you can use for other things)

Have you seen "pro" FPS players? To really compete, you need a special system. It is pretty easy to drop 10k for the computer, and a nice chunk a month for a special net connection. Not to mention, the computer needs to be replaced every year or 2...

Quote
Type 1: $4000: 10, duals, fetches, Drains, Bazaars, Workshops, Abyss/Moat, etc.  Assuming you can get played cards.

This is retarded. You don't need drains, bazaars, and workshops. These are mutually exclusive. You pick 1 deck type, and make that. Abyss/moat are basically not played anymore, what a waste of money. Not to mention in magic, unlike baseball etc., you can play for free. It is quite possible to trade well and get whatever you want without a net loss of cash.

First, I just want to say that I think this is the most ridiculous idea ever. I'd post my own, but it's been posted, and so have about a dozen better ideas.

If you spend 10 G's on a computer, you need to die. Honestly. My computer cost me about $900 when it was cutting edge. To prove the rest of this statement wrong, I was on the top 20 of the first counter-strike ladder about a year later, when the best computer was well over a gigahertz faster than mine. My cable runs 30 a month, and I only have to pay a portion of that!

so in conclusion, I think both of your prices are "whack"  

[BuboniC]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 21 2003,13:27)

Quote (BuboniC @ Nov. 21 2003,13:03)

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 21 2003,12:50)

Quote (thefram @ Nov. 21 2003,12:29)I personally have been won over by the "authorized proxy" idea. This meaning that WOTC releases a reprint set that is only t1 legal, with the new card face, and ONLY legal as proxies. This means (say we call the set "Gamma") you may only play 8 reprinted cards from Gamma in any sanctioned Vintage event.

That sounds much more workable than your solution.
They could even be new card face, so that a deck checker could easily distinguish them.

-Thefram

It is the only reasonable solution in my mind as it best satisfies all the interests at play.  At some point I'll make a bold proposal laying out the argument in detail, but its best to leave this things off for as long as possible.  

Steve

But that doesn't matter too Wizards!!!!!!!T1 players who cant afford T1 play T2- and thats exactly what they want!!! Wizards doesnt make any money from T1- but lots of it from T2. Also T2 players would switch too T1 cause they can afford it, and elf players would be playing fully powered long, Keeper, Tog, MUD, and dragon. Wizards would lose money, its a buisness- and a buisness's main real concern is how they make money- number 2 is are they happy. I think there has too be a solution for us players- but wizards has already put the road before us: PLAY T2 if you dont have enough money for T1- so we will make money from you.

That assumes too much.  Type One would never have more than t2 as long as the Pro Tour is type two and type one is not.

Also, if they only allowed power nine to be proxied - or better yet, only the Moxen and Black Lotus, then people would not be able to play any deck they want - Masks, Workshops, Drains, Bazaars are still fairly expensive.

Steve

If only the moxen and lotus were reprinted then it wouldnt be too hard too predict the fact that Ancestral would atleast double in price, same as time walk, and timetwister. Although even if lets say 20,000 people quit T2, and only played T1, would they play T2 just for the pro tour? I wouldnt. Also: There not only has too be an even amount of power in T1, but an even amount of tournaments if this policy of power returning, for the demand would be overpowering.