Type 1 needs reprints to survive. If you look at th...

[Smash]

@Razvan: You have no clue what you are talking about. Not selling to ebay will raise ebay prices, which will raise dealer prices. Please take a basic econ class, and pay attention to the words "supply" and "demand".

@Crater Hellion: CS runs on a p2 400. And even then, the people with the 25 inch monitors end up with an advantage. Then can see further away to awp whore better. Try some of the newer games, they take a lot more hardware to be able to run at high reses. Also, in stuff like quake 3 you can do special jumps only if you get above X frames per second (where X can be 200, 400, 1000, etc.). You are literally unable to get to places if your computer isn't bleeding edge.

Don't even tell me a p3 and a quad p4 are a fair comparison in a new game. Nor tell me a 13 inch monitor is fair vs a 21. Nor a cable vs a dedicated t1. FPS's are not fair. Neither is type 1 magic. Like it, or quit.

[Crater Hellion]

Playskill can always shine through, in anything.  

[Smash]

Quote (Crater Hellion @ Nov. 21 2003,16:39)Playskill can always shine through, in anything.  

Then why can't people play with what they have, rather than whine for t1 reprints?

[Solaran_X]

Dude...Smash...you are my hero.

[Crater Hellion]

People CAN. People don't.

[Mage of Dreams]

Just a $.02 about the incorrect view that WotC doesn't make money off T1.

WotC is a manufacturer of cards. They make money one time on EVERY card made. They make no money from the secondary market on any card.

As far as "profitable" goes 1.x, 1.5, and 1 are all the same, few or no new sales are generated.

The main difference is that Extended is directly fed by T2 and the promotional efforts put into that format. There is also the availabilty of the cards, by keeping the rotations up the card pool stays high allowing access to most players.

Just because most T1 players don't buy packs of the new set doesn't mean WotC doesn't make money from them. In fact they make just as much per card for every T1 usable card as they do per pack they sell for T2. In order for you to get that Chalace of the Void someone bought a pack and WotC made their money.

The bottom line is availability and promotion are the keys to the kingdom, and without reprints to furnish availability all the promotion in the world will do little.

One thing I though they could do is start a "Companion Expansion" with each normal expansion. These sets could have their own vintage symbol and contain cards that would only be legal in vintage formats. They could contain cards two distorting for Standard formats, the original versions of toned down cards with new names (Browbeat could have been 1RR and an instant) and reprints with new art. Print runs could be kept low and increased as demand called for. Hell Extended could eventually be replace by T1 in theory, given time.

[Smash]

@Mage of Dreams. Going the growl? Sun lotion? What language is this you speak

[Razvan]

Quote @Razvan: You have no clue what you are talking about. Not selling to ebay will raise ebay prices, which will raise dealer prices. Please take a basic econ class, and pay attention to the words "supply" and "demand".

Free economy lesson, slick  . Supply and demand can't always be blindly applied in a small and closed system.

In this case, the demand is always there. It varies a bit, but magic power will always be bought. Agreed? What these dealers are doing is controlling the supply. That's why they are willing to pay more over market price. When they control the total (or almost) supply, they can do whatever they want with the price (within somewhat of reason).

Since there's so little supply to begin with, and there is no new production (well, I assume so), theoretically the prices can be driven up, since there is no alternative. As I stated before, they can afford to bid up to $220 for a $200 mox, since they know that some desperate sap will pay up to $240 for it. You want to be smart and out-bid them? Fine, they will out-bid you for a while, and at some point let you have it. You will still get to $240. Was it worth it?

Quote Not selling to ebay will raise ebay prices, which will raise dealer prices.

It will raise ebay dealer prices. The majority of dealers are still local, non ebay. They buy collections for 75% of their worth (or less, whatever), and sell them for normal price. Or isn't this how it goes, or should go?

Anyhow, if you wish, let's continue this on PM (civil!  ).

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote In this case, the demand is always there. It varies a bit, but magic power will always be bought.

This is false logic. The issue is not whether people will buy power, but how much they are willing to spend.

Why has the price of power more than doubled in the past couple years? The supply of power is fixed, so only a change in demand can cause a real shift in price. That means that the price increases are a direct result of more people wanting to own power.

[Smash]

Quote (Jacob Orlove @ Nov. 22 2003,21:05)

Quote In this case, the demand is always there. It varies a bit, but magic power will always be bought.

This is false logic. The issue is not whether people will buy power, but how much they are willing to spend.

Why has the price of power more than doubled in the past couple years? The supply of power is fixed, so only a change in demand can cause a real shift in price. That means that the price increases are a direct result of more people wanting to own power.

Exactly.

Also the point that the supply is ever shrinking. Every so often I am sure people kill/rip/lose a piece of power. Less likey since they cost so much, but it will still happen. On top of this is the natural degrading of power from being played. Every time a NM mox is bent a little and becomes EX, NM moxes just got more rare.

On top of this, not everybody who buys power and quits magic will sell their power. A certain amount will hang on to it for old times sakes. So, as time goes on less and less will be available to play with. So JUST by looking at ebay prices, it is pretty hard to tell how much demand is changing vs how much supply is changing (just that either demand is going up, or supply down, or some combination thereof).

But yes, trying to not sell stuff on ebay is a pointless plan.

[Jaapmans]

Quite some decent replies already have been given in this thread.

I think that WotC will never reprint anything. The chances of *a lot* of people getting upset if they do any kind of reprinting is just too high.

The most extreem that *can* happen is that the DCI is going to accept proxy tournaments.

What happened before decent administered sanctioned play existed? People organized their own tournaments, calculated their own rankings and ratings etc.

All you need is a couple of TO's that put their hands together and allow proxy tournaments, somewhere in the range of 5-10 cards. People still have to use their creativity because they don't own every cards. That is virtual impossible.

Just my 2 euro cents.

Jaap

[Razvan]

Quote On top of this, not everybody who buys power and quits magic will sell their power. A certain amount will hang on to it for old times sakes. So, as time goes on less and less will be available to play with

Yes, but others will sell. I can't say it's 1 for 1, but it's a cycle. And for some people, $200 is quite a hefty ammount of money, so they just might sell it. So the cycle goes on. Unless it stops at a dealer, at which point the cycle will continue with a markup.

And yes, maybe selling on ebay cannot be stopped. But the least you can do is try to keep it in the community. At least that!

[Soujiro The Tenken]

howdy this is so completely off topic, but hey razvan... on your signature, if you kill everyone, theres no "they" to call u god.

[Milton]

I dismissed the innitial premise of the post because I couldn't agree with this statement:

Quote If you look at the numbers, there are far more players than there are sets of Power,

And this statement

This adds up to 22,800 full sets of power.  There are a lot more than 22,800 Type 1 players in the world, and much of the P9 out there is being sat on, held by dealers or players as an investment.

First, I disagree that there are 22,800 competitive T1 players in the world.  At most there is probabally one-fifth that number.  Maybe four or five thousand competitive T1 players, and that is being generous.

As for the dealers and other collectors sitting on the cards, yeah they do.  But if you really want to be competitive you can still find played power for around $110-$140 for Moxes, a little more for Time Walks and Ancestrals, a little less for Twisters.  I can't listen to anyone arguing about the price of dual lands.  Those cards have been around for a long time, are everywhere and are really reasonably priced for a card that will not decrease in value at all, unlike the hottest T2 chase rare.  Sure, Masks and Bazars are expensive, but the way I look at it every player (from extended to T2 to T1) has to use their resources to make the best deck and they have to sometimes make some tough choices.\n\n

[Razvan]

Quote howdy this is so completely off topic, but hey razvan... on your signature, if you kill everyone, theres no "they" to call u god.

Hm... interesting point. Dammit! Back to the drawing board!

I went downtown to check (i was there for other business), and I was pretty happy to see that there's a few more good cards available (including Legends booster packs). So should I take it as a good sign?

[ganandorf]

overall, this really wouldn't be good for a lot of T1 players. if everyone already had power taht they could play with, the ones who already power would get very angry as their moxes went from $220 to $50. a lot of those people would quit. It would be similar to chronicles. people paid a lot of good money to get valuable cards, only to have them be reprinted and have their value crash. also, if everyone has power, then who would still play decks like sligh? that's right, no one. just my $.02
(I can't believe I said that, seeing as I don't own any power)

[Tripps]

Quote (cssamerican @ Nov. 21 2003,13:14)

Quote (jpmeyer @ Nov. 21 2003,15:04)From my post in the other reprint thread:

Quote If Type 1 ever became more popular than Limited and Standard, It would soon die.  What would happen is that Type 1 would eventually become a completely explored format.  At this point, it would become extremely difficult for any new cards to enter the Type 1 cardpool.  The format would then stagnate and die because it would be almost impossible to have any change.  And then everyone would go back to playing Limited and Standard.

You solve Type 1, you kill the format.  Lots of people/lots of pros working on solving the format, higher chance that it'll get solved and effectively killed.

Chess as we know it has been around for a couple hundred years, and people still can't agree on what the best opening play is! Why would you think a card game with 3000+ cards and growing with a bit of luck thrown in the mix would be so easy to figure out? I think you give the pros too much credit.

That is just my 2  cents

What I think is being said here is this: Type 2 effectively gets "solved" with the top decks beign discovered, and the best builds for each being discovered quickly each season, right? But Type 2 keeps rotating, bringing change and new ideas to the format. Type 1 does not. We would have the top decks and best builds being discovered, then nothing would change. It would stagnate, as Jp said.

I think that is what was the point he was trying to make, if not, someone correct me, and insult me for being wrong.

[cssamerican]

Tripps: You correct about the point JP was trying to make, but there is a lot more cards and card interactions in Type 1 Magic then there is in Type 2. The point I was making is with that large of a card pool I don't think anyone could "Figure it Out". And the "Luck Factor" makes it even more difficult, most people can't even agree on a decklist of a specific deck because they have had different experiences based on the luck of the draw. Demonic Consultaion in mono-black decks is a perfect example of this. Unlike any of the other formats, Type 1 has an answer card for everything. And if for some reason someone figures out some deck list that wins 75% of the time no matter the opponent Type 1 has an answer for it as well, restrict what ever card makes it tick.

There are only three real reasons for not reprinting cards or allow enough proxies to be used to put everyone on a level playing field.
1.) It will cost people a certain amount of money that they have already invested in collecting the expensive rare cards.
2.) There is an ego trip in having the "Power Cards". This feeling of elitism would leave if reprints were to be allowed.
3.) People are winning in there respective meta quite consitently due to the fact they are the only skilled player that has power. Thus if this balanced of power changed they would no longer be the dominate force of their respective metagame. Since other equally skilled player would be able to build powered decks that could restore the Rock/Paper/Scissors to the metagame.

I do not have a problem for arguing against reprints or proxies if it is reason number 1. If that is your real resoning behind arguing against reprints or proxies you should just say "Hey, I do not want to lose the money I have invested in Magic cards over the years; therefore, I am against reprints and/or proxies". But any other argument seem like an argument with reason number 2 or 3 hidden behind it. And if 2 and 3 are your reasoning for not wanting reprints or proxies then you are freak'n childish!

Note: I am not saying what JP's or anyone elses reasoning is, because I really do not know. But I do beleive anyone's reasoning who is against reprints is subconsciously attributed to one of the three reasonings I gave. That is just my 2 cents.

[Charlie Yu]

The most possible reprint is that WotC reprinted Beta packs and sell them 3.29 apiece. Yes this harmed lots of players, but do they care? It's profitable to them!

[Smash]

Quote (Charlie Yu @ Nov. 25 2003,12:46)The most possible reprint is that WotC reprinted Beta packs and sell them 3.29 apiece. Yes this harmed lots of players, but do they care? It's profitable to them!

In other news: The US Gov't sells $100 bills out of a $1 vending machine.

[Razvan]

Smash, I think you would be first in line to use those machines... if you can make it through me:).

[vinceherman]

I think reprints should be offered as box-toppers.  Legal sized, legal backs, new artwork if desired, maybe a promo expansion symbol.  Not legal for the set the ride along with, but legal in the tournaments that allow the originals.