I've read and played with both the fish and U/r PTW v...

[Sytupal]

I've read and played with both the fish and U/r PTW versions of the decks for awhile now, however i wanted to come up with something of a mix between the two.  Not such a "gay" merfolk build but no red splash.  I'm fully aware that some of the responses will just be "this is suboptimal blah blah" but constructive criticism would be fantastic.  This deck is just in theory right now because I'm still hesitant to mush the decks together and some cards i do not have.  

//Critters(16)
4 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Thalakos Seer
4 Cloud of Faeries

//Goodness (21)
3 Null Rod
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Curiosity
4 Stifle

//mana Production/Manly/Strip (23)
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factories
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
9 Island



Voidmage Prodigy

It's insanely good.  I can toss my seers and him for some extreme countering.

Spiketail Hatchling

This card is just too good to pass up.  evasion and counter in one is just cool.  slowing down your opponents tempo making him save a land is just great.

Thalakos Seer  UU
Summon Wizard
Shadow
If Thalakos Seer leaves play, draw a card

This was my hardest "4 of" choice card.  I was sadly enough looking through my uncommons and commons boxes and found this guy.  It's 2 blue but in a monoblue build it's just so cool.  the draw after sacking to the voidmage and ultimate evasion for curiosity makes it a must.  

Cloud of Faeries

This card just speaks for itself.  It's an outrageously synergestic card with any blue build.

Null Rod

I play a monoblack build as my main deck choice always and null rod was always my ultimate Sideboard hoser.  IT never deserved maindeck status in that deck, but in this deck it just does.  

Force of Will

The ultimate first turn kill hoser and it helps out in the clinch

Stifle

Great against all the top decks right now, it always deserves a spot.

Strip Effects

Still a must in at least my metagame.  These are actually the reason why i chose a monoblue build instead of using duals.  Someone taking out my only offcolor duals really proves to be a bitch....to put it bluntly.

Manlands

I like the blue production and evasion the conclaves give and the mishra's lack.  The difference is the ability to block as a 3/3 with mishra's.


My Sideboard build is still not decided.  However, i've realized that chalice for two will hose this deck... I can just hope that i can counter it so it won't hit play.

Thanks everyone. ~ please criticism would be great.

-Richard

EDIT:  I understand Jacob's thoughts and suggestions ~  Counterspells out, manlands and 4th stifle in.

[Jacob Orlove]

Counterspell is really bad here. You aren't going to be leaving mana open too much.

Cut two for Mishra's Factories--running all 8 manlands in mono-blue fish is really good.

You have no one-drops. That will slow you down. Maybe include the 4th stifle, to have another turn-1 play?

[BuboniC]

Manta Riders? Rootwater thief? Mono blue needs too pack as much hate as U/R fish does, and more beats. Even flying men would be optimal, I tried building old school silly fish on apprentice and game workstation- and its very playable. I made my own neat version "Growing Old Gay Men" Because it used unstable mutation(Growing) Old(The decks old) Gay(The fairie's) Men(Flying Men). Good stuff. But on a more serious note- I suggest:
+4 Rootwater Thief
+4 Manta Riders
+1 Missdirection

-4 Thalokos Sphere
-4 Spiketail hatchling
-1 Stifle

But i mainly like the aggro control build, and you seem too like just the control. Thats just my thoughts.

[Phele]

Sorry to correct you Syt, but you didn't came up with the Thalakos-Seer-idea while looking through your cards. You read it right here where i linked to from the Gay/r thread, where you answered right after i presented the idea with the seers. It was me coming up with the gay wizards idea, so don't present it as yours.
On the topic, although the answeres on the idea were more less negative I like it and it has proven in many test-matches to be really comeptitive. I will soon present an Type-1-version. Thanks to PTW so far for the inspiration.
You definatly have to go with the u/r-version. You need a first-turn-drop, for what grim is just perfect. And he is a wizard. And you need some removal _ grim + fire/ice _ for the lack of dazes and spiketail hatchling counter-power. Gay wizards is a fun and competitive build. And as you said. There's nothing better than saccing the seers for countering and drawing cards.

Sorry for my bad english, but i'm just a still learning German

[PucktheCat]

The reason Mono-U builds run Merfolk and the Lord, and the reason the /r builds that run Lavamancer can afford to dispense with the fish, is vulnerability against aggro.  The build you suggest has no creatures that are in any way combat ready except Mishra's factory.

This build is probably about as solid against combo/control as the other Gay decks, but you need to decide on a strategy against things like Suicide, Madness . . . as well as other unspecified janky creature decks that your 1/1s can't handle.

Leo

[BreathWeapon]

If you run mono blue gay wizards, I suggest dropping Null Rod's for Chalice of the Void. It should hose random aggro and is flat better vs Long. The lack of 1 drops may really hurt this decks tempo, Flying Men may be better than Spiketail Hatchling. Seeing Power in this deck makes me want to cry, play with the 10th Island and 2 Misdirection like a real man lol.

So far, I haven't had much of a problem vs Suicide. Your man lands can trade rather well vs Negator/Specter leaving the only threat Suicide has, Nantuko Shade, to be countered.

You should be packing 4 Maze of Ith or 4 Control Magic in your SB to help you deal vs Big Critters. Madness is just an awful match up, but its incredibly uncommon.

I'm very fond of U/R/W Gay Wizards. It is a long evolution from the original Fish builds, but the added fire power of Lavamancer, Meddeling Mage, Fire/Ice, Swords to Plowshares is not to be taken lightly.

[Crater Hellion]

IMO, Null Rod is an integral component to this deck right now. Stifle is certainly a bomb, but 4 is a little heavy- I would probably stick with three copies. I certainly do not like thalakos seer, as it's not going anywhere because they can't block it. Hell, I'd rather use the ancient Saprazzan Heir and Unstable Mutation combo  

[Sytupal]

@Phele - this is not intended to be a fight starter or anything else in that way.

Actually no, i did not read your thread to be honest.  I don't play nor will i ever play extended actually lol.  i don't pay attention to most deckbuild replies either, that's the reason why on the chaliceblack v2.0 thread i opposed it strongy.  The coincidential fact that it appears to be this way is wrong.  I did as a matter of fact find thalakos seer in my box of blue.  i only have 2 and hope to get an additional 2.  I did not steal your idea and i don't want you to think that.  I apologize that you posted that first but i won't delete the sentence that said i found it in my box.  It's true i did find it in my box and i honestly did not read your post.


To everyone else ~ what if i modified it in order to add psionic blast?  Would that lower my aggro problem?  I don't know what to pull but could that help?

[PucktheCat]

Quote (Sytupal @ Nov. 25 2003,16:43)To everyone else ~ what if i modified it in order to add psionic blast?  Would that lower my aggro problem?  I don't know what to pull but could that help?

Psionic Blast would certainly help.  However it is worth considering whether if you start pulling cards that are optimal against Control/Combo for cards that help against Aggro you aren't giving up whatever advantage you might gain from the Seer's ability to compensate for his weaknesses.

I am not trying to get you down, though.  I am laying out the reasons for the established choices so you can understand them when you make your own.  If you find your build works, great!

Leo

[Phele]

No senseless flaming in this thread  , let's just try to optimize our builds. I try out this version in the moment:

Gay Wizards (Version 1.0)

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Thalakos Seer
3 Voidmage Prodigy

4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Misdirection

4 Curiousity
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Null Rod
1 Time Walk

5 Strip Mines
5 Fetchlands
4 Volcanic Islands
2 Islands
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factories
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria (1 Island)

I've never been friend with the Hatchlings and Dazes, because they are so conditional. Mono-U-Builds have functioned without them before. I included stifles and seers instead. Big disadvantage is for sure, that you need more blue mana sources. Other possibilities to change that could maybe be the inclusion of one more conclave or island instead of library or mish. fac. Library seems to have to much time-loss without the extra counter-spells, and with the seers you should have enough draw-possibilities, so I'm tending to exchange it.

Up to now, the deck has proven to work pretty well against aggro-, combo- and controll-decks as well. Stifles worked so well against the faster combo-decks like long and dragon. Grim ruins slighs, welder muds and suis day.  Late game with kai and seer out and board position in your favor it's almost over. Countering by saccing the seer and drawing another possivle counter-option is just amazing. And the sideboard can help out a lot too.

Board:

3 Maze of Ith
3 Seal of Removal
1 Null Rod
1 Stifle
2 Fire/Ice
3 Rack or Ruin
1 Blue Elemantal Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast

Maybe some constructive advices can be given. I know, how the fish and gay/r-builds look like and want to try out something new like sytupal.

[Sytupal]

Cool Phele~  The U/r build seems to have little issue against aggro, however, against the monoblue concept, it poses some troubles.  How about propaganda?  I would be easier to fit in then psionic blasts and is a permanent creature control..  Yes, no?  anyone?

- 1 Spiketail Hatchling
- 1 Null Rod
- 1 Stifle

+ 3 Propaganda

Would this not take care of aggro in most situations? it slows down their tempo a lot and isn't that what this deck is all about?

[Phele]

You seem to fear aggor a lot. Maybe your metagame is full of it, but then i would recommend a different deck anyway.
In the high-powered-meta, you don't need that much creature-control. Against random aggro-things you are prepared with the sideboard. Propaganda isn't that good in this deck. It's too expensive and hurts you too a lot. And you don't need it.
There are three more less competitive aggro-decks in the moment: madness, sui, stacker-tnt-something. Against madness stifle works pretty well, against sui grim lavamancer is the king, against the brown ones grim is not that bad too and in the second game you can bring in the hate-wave from the board.
For your Ideas: Don't ever cut a null road md. It's too good against so many decks in the moment (Play sometimes against iso scepter with fire/ice). Spiketail Hatchling won't leave this deck, because it's not in. And with stifle I'm just fine in the moment.
Believe me: With red in it, you are prepared for the aggro-, the control- and the combo-matchup as well.

[BreathWeapon]

If your looking for an easy, and very gay, answer to Aggro in Mono-U Fish Waterfront Bouncer is a GOD. He allows Fish to trade card advantage for Tempo and remove Creature threats from the board, including Worldgorger Dragon.

With Waterfront Bouncer in your corner, evasion is much less of a concern. This could be very tech with your Gay Wizard strategy, Bounce the opponents creature back to his hand and then counter it later with a Voidmage.

Stifle is also very tech vs Madness, which only leaves Suicide as any sort of an Aggro threat. Stacker can be dealt with visa vi Hurkyl's Recall.

[Phele]

The Bouncer could be some nice against aggro-decks. What I don't like about him: He works just against the aggro-ones. So I would never pack him md. For his effect I have the seals in the board. They don't block the creature-spots in the deck, and for them you don't have to leave one mana open and really important: You don't miss dealing damage.

[BreathWeapon]

He OWNZ Dragon as well Phele, with its growing popularity 4 MD answers to Dragon and Aggro is huge. Plus, and this is a huge plus, you can afford to remove your 4 Maze of Ith from the SB for alternative Artifact or Grave Hate. Almost 15% of Waterbury was Dragon alone.

I don't understand your comment on passing up on a point of damage. If your opponent has a creature on the board he couldn't have attacked in safety anyway. Care to explain?

Just look at those muscles, you know that guy is a Steel Worker on his lunch break looking for a good time ... very Gay  

He works even better standing by Lavamancer in U/R Fish, as the discard feeds Mr. Grim

[BuboniC]

Richard: Propaganda is only good in our meta against some of the decks, but I suppose it's good vs. MUD, Fish, and Keeper(if it ever lives) but I dont think I'd play them MD, SB would be far more optimal, also I strongly think instead of hating the aggro, Join it with Rootwater Thief, and manta Riders. also, here is my Workstation build of old school Fish if your interested:
4 Flying Men
4 Unstable Mutation
4 Standstill
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Force of Will
4 Curiosity(the deck has too have em)
3 Spiny Starfish(bah-roken lol)
3 Sunken City
3 Serendib Efreet
3 Null Rod
3 Psionic Blast

Mana:
8 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


SB:
4 Old Man of the Sea(hehe)
4 Energy Flux
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt

Once again- I am very well aware how bad this deck is- but it's very old school and cool. I just started testing it out for about an hour and I imagine it in our meta as very good. It slaughters aggro, Long, Dragon(post SBing) but is weak vs. Keeper(there is none at our cardshop) I know this looks very week/silly- but im going too play it with my awsome "l33t" tech(AKA Sunken City+ Starfish COMBO!!lol, or with standstill       )

[Phele]

The damage-comment was about the seals compared with the bouncers. And they work against dragon as well.
I never had any problems feeding grim. With so many draw-effects and cheap effects, your yard is allways full.
And with four bouncers md you wasted four slots against long and keeper, which was seen in waterbury much more. But if your fine with them: great. I don't see a slot in the u/r-build for them. I see better use for them in the creature-heavy 1.5 and only as a sideboard-option together with gilded drake.
Bubonic: Great build! I've never seen something more old man school.

[Sytupal]

Cool comments so far guys. keep it up.

[wuaffiliate]

if aggro sucks your nuts try sigil of sleep