This is just to announce that in January, Hairy Tarantula...

[dicemanX]

This is just to announce that in January, Hairy Tarantula (located in downtown Toronto, CANADA) will resume its T1 tournaments. Regardless of any crap that has transpired in the past as far as prizes were concerned, I think that it is important for the T1 community to band together again and show support. Leon, the owner, has expressed interest in running tournaments catered to what we as a community want. We therefore must decide on a number of issues, many of which will be the key to attracting support for the format in Toronto and surrounding area. Maybe if we get that support, we will start attracting distant out-of-towners. There is no doubt in my mind that we can get more than 20 people to play on a consistent basis.

We need to decide on two things mainly:

1) Proxy or non-proxy tournaments - My suggestion is that we start running proxy tournaments to raise the level of decks, and give people the opportunity to learn how to play at a higher level. This means a lack of sanctioning, but who cares about that really? Rich and I have a lock on the top two spots in the country anyways, so why fight us.

I suggest that we have either 5 or 10 card proxy tournaments, but force people to use *actual scans* of a card as a proxy. None of that marker on a basic land crap. I want stuff to be visually identifiable. This is a very reasonable request in my opinion.

2) Prize structure - This will depend on what we want the entry fee to be. We can make it either high ($20) or low ($10). Since I have a feeling that most of us like to play T1 primarily for fun as opposed to the prizes (perhaps Lam would disagree),we can start off low and wait until we have enough support and enough people confident enough that they have a reasonable shot of winning. I talked to Leon about this and he says he'd be willing to return most of the entries as prizes (perhaps even all of it -100% return). He also suggested a point system for prizes: If you win, you get a certain number of "points" you could put towards any card in the store, such as P9 for instance. Since we won't have enough entries to cover the priceofthepower in one tournament, you would have to accumulate points over the course of several tournaments. Alternately, you could "cash out" at any time to convert your points to cash.


In any case, I want some feedback regarding these new tournaments. I want to see what kind of support we can get for these tournaments, and for those interested, what kind of prize structure we should have. I will start this thread in theNewbie forum as well, as I know there's a lot of locals with just a TMD status.

Let's make T1 big again in T.O!

[Shock Wave]

I vehemently oppose the idea of proxy or any sort of non-sanctioned event. That's my 2 cents. Actually, I'm very comfortable playing at 401, for a number of reasons:

1) Regardless of what Leon says, in the past he has poorly reimbursed the tournament attendees for the money that was put in. Sure, he gave away power, but it was ridiculously over priced, along with the rest of the cards in the store.

2) 401 runs sanctioned events. I've never played in a sanctioned event at Leon's.

3) 401 doesn't smell like steaming cat shit.

Honestly, I'm content playing at the tournaments at Untouchables, which IMO, is the best out of all the venues in the GTA (other than Listowel). It's a real pity that a lot of the TO players can't consistently come out to Mississauga (which isn't that far... ) where the venue:

a) runs sanctioned events run in strict accordance with the rules
b) is a clean, respectable environment
c) puts out almost %100 of what it takes in from the players in *respectable* prize support
d) has very fair prices for the product they sell\n\n

[dicemanX]

Perhaps we can reach a compromise and have one set of events non-sanctioned and five proxy (Hairy T), while letting the Untouchables tournaments be fully sanctioned. This way the two events don't necessarily have to be in direct competition with each other.

I'm just thinking of the players that refrain from coming because they feel that they just cannot compete without power (and perhaps they *want* and can afford power, but its just unavailable locally). I know that they are wrong and that they CAN compete, but its very difficult to change the mind of a person like that. Better to offer some incentive and get them to come out, than to have them not come out at all.

Thoughts?

[Balzary]

1)  To increase attendance, I agree with you that proxies will probably have to be implemented.  Personally, I would rather keep it to 5 as opposed to 10 however.  I totally support of your suggestion that they be scans though.  This would greatly reduce any chance of playing errors based off wrong assumptions as to what cards are on the table.

2) It doesn't really matter to me about the entry cost.  However, $10 will probably increase the turnout as you said until the tournaments become more established.  The points system is rather intriguing.  I think it should be an option though, since people that would go out for one just to try would be discouraged to do so if they had to come back repeated times to cash in.  On the other hand, the points system could create a nice little competitive atmosphere among regulars and increase turnout that way.

If these occured on a regular basis, I could see myself going to them whenever I got the chance.  Would they be a set day each month?  (e.g. 3rd sunday of every month?)  That would help people plan in advance to attending.  I could probably bring at least myself and 2 or 3 others as well.  
Where would these tournaments be held at?  401 is so cramped.
For the prize structure, I think actual cards vs cash is strictly better in attracting attendance.  A 100% return would be great at the start, although I can see the need to lessen the percentage when they become established for the sake of the T.O.  Prizes should really be playable T1 stuff, as the chance to improve ones deck is always in the thoughts of everyones mind.  Even something that is of relatively low value but very playable (e.g. Mana Drain) will attract people.  Does Leon have repeated access to the playable stuff for multiple tournaments?  If so then the potential for these to become a success is limitless.

[Shock Wave]

Quote I'm just thinking of the players that refrain from coming because they feel that they just cannot compete without power (and perhaps they *want* and can afford power, but its just unavailable locally). I know that they are wrong and that they CAN compete, but its very difficult to change the mind of a person like that. Better to offer some incentive and get them to come out, than to have them not come out at all.

It's definitely doable. I think if Listowel can attract the number of players it does, there's no reason why Leon's can't get 40 for a non-sanctioned proxy event. If the prize support is there, then I'm sure people will be willing to come out.

Quote Where would these tournaments be held at?  401 is so cramped.

If 401 is cramped, then Hairy T's is a shoe box.

Quote If these occured on a regular basis, I could see myself going to them whenever I got the chance.  Would they be a set day each month?  (e.g. 3rd sunday of every month?)  That would help people plan in advance to attending.

I think this is one of the more important issues to consider. If Hairy T's is going to hold tournaments, that will make 3 T1 tournaments a month. (Untouchables, 401, Hairy T's). Also, it's worth mentioning that a lot of the TO players travel to Montreal on the 1st Sunday of the month to play at Carta Magica. Ironing out the scheduling of these tournaments is the key, so that nobody's toes get stepped on. I think it's possible for all 3 venues to hold successful tournaments, but all 3 TOs would have to be in accordance with each other.\n\n

[dicemanX]

Quote The points system is rather intriguing.  I think it should be an option though, since people that would go out for one just to try would be discouraged to do so if they had to come back repeated times to cash in.

We could set it up so people could cash out straight away.

Quote If these occured on a regular basis, I could see myself going to them whenever I got the chance.  Would they be a set day each month?  (e.g. 3rd sunday of every month?)  

They would be set up that way, yes.

Quote Where would these tournaments be held at?  401 is so cramped.

Hairy Tarantula (just down the street from 401) has the space to fit up to 30 people I'd say.

Quote For the prize structure, I think actual cards vs cash is strictly better in attracting attendance.  A 100% return would be great at the start, although I can see the need to lessen the percentage when they become established for the sake of the T.O.  Prizes should really be playable T1 stuff, as the chance to improve ones deck is always in the thoughts of everyones mind.  Even something that is of relatively low value but very playable (e.g. Mana Drain) will attract people.  Does Leon have repeated access to the playable stuff for multiple tournaments?  If so then the potential for these to become a success is limitless.

Leon has his personal stash of stuff, which he might or might not offer up as prizes. I agree that he would attract a lot more people if power or good cards were on the line. Still, at least he's willing to offer up cash instead of store credit. It's just so hard to find any good T1 stuff in Toronto and the surrounding area.

[dicemanX]

Quote I think this is one of the more important issues to consider. If Hairy T's is going to hold tournaments, that will make 3 T1 tournaments a month. (Untouchables, 401, Hairy T's). Also, it's worth mentioning that a lot of the TO players travel to Montreal on the 1st Sunday of the month to play at Carta Magica. Ironing out the scheduling of these tournaments is the key, so that nobody's toes get stepped on. I think it's possible for all 3 venues to hold successful tournaments, but all 3 TOs would have to be in accordance with each other.

Yes, this is very crucial. I'd be willing to drop 401 from the schedule altogether, or at least try and beef up either 401 or Hairy T. That way, we would have two very solid tourneys every month in Toronto/Mississauga, one sanctioned, one non-sanctioned proxy. If we had a third, I'd be very concerned with diluting our pool of T1 players, as they might not want to play three times a month every month.

[Razvan]

I am up for it, and then some!

I am not exactly sure what sanctionned is (I know  ), but like this 5-proxy idea a lot (can proxies be those CE cards with opaque sleeves)?

I am okay with either 401 or Hairy T (or both). Also, 2 more things:

1) What the heck is Listowel?

2) There apparently is a couple of tourneys this weekend, as far as diceman states. Could you guys tell me when they starts, where they are (precisely), and how long they usually lasts? It would help a lot.

If T.O. would once again start to be a Type 1 pillar, I would be so...  

[Comrade Seraph]

Hey, CE cards with sleeves are the best 'proxies' that exist... high quality inkjet prints are decent too though.

I admit, I'm consumed by jealousy of you guys. Does anyone know of T1 tourneys in the 'other' Canada (Vancouver =P)? I've heard there's one out in Burnaby but that's way the hell away from me... the more cards I buy the more important it seems to do something more than beat up random T2 scrubs with them .

[dicemanX]

Razvan:

We frequently post tourney announcments in the www.mtgontario.com forums as well as in the tournament forum at this site.

Info on the two weekend tournaments is found here. You'll find info on Listowel here as well.

"Sanctioned" means that the tournaments are recognized by the DCI and are rated, and must have a judge present. Proxies are not permitted in sanctioned events. And yes, CE cards would make fantastic proxies!

[bebe]

Quote
Rich and I have a lock on the top two spots in the country anyways, so why fight us.

We only humour you Peter. You know that a number of us can beat you any time we please but we haven't heart. I finally let Rich win last tournament because losing to a jank deck would have been too ambarassing for him.

I will do as the majority want. I started pushing too many venues already and everyone knows that Leon and I are close friends so my opnion is bound to be biased. As for Misissauga - I would love to attend but I work on Saturdays - some of have jobs - so I just cannot make it. If the costs are kept down I see no reason why a city the size of Toronto should not be able to support three tournaments a month.

Any efforrt to to increave the number of  players at a tournament would be welcome. We need new faces ...

[Luskan]

I would love to have a 5-proxy non-sanctioned tournament in downtown Toronto.  I play T1 at 401 occasionally, but being mostly a type 2 player it takes me a long time to collect the cards I need for a type 1 deck.  My big thing is generally when the tourney is.  I usually don't have a lot of time on the weekend to devote half a day to playing.  Any thought of having it on a week night?  I really don't care about the prizes either, although store credit at Harry T's won't buy much.

[Razvan]

Here's a sick idea for Toronto... how about have non-weekend tournaments or gaming nights and stuff like that?

Like maybe choose a day tuesday-thursday, and do it then? I am not sure if it works or not, or how many can come, but it would be great to meet people and play and trade and get better, and it would be accessible to those of us that cannot make it on the weekend?

[dicemanX]

It might be a good idea to have week-day tournaments, but it would exclude those that have to work long hours and have trouble getting to the tournament on time. If something like this would be done, the best place would probably be 401, as they don't close until midnight. Untouchables tried running weekly T1 events on Tuesdays, but there wasn't enough time (store closes at 9pm) and the turn-out was too low.

[Razvan]

I work at Steeles and Victoria Park, and usually manage to escape around 5:30-6 or so:)... And we can make them somewhere central. I don't really mind 401, but it might take me a bit to get there, as I will probably have to take the subway. So we'd start at 7. Or we can find something even more central. And, I don't mind driving to 'sauga.

The thing, we don't always need one hundred people. If we could get 8, it would be cool to try something my friends and I try for poker.

Put $2 in the pot, and we each get $400 worth of chips, and play something like 2-4 hold'em. Winner takes all.

Well, it won't exactly result in power being won, but you can get a dual land or something in the end. Either way, it would be for fun, and it could expand, as more connections are made...

If it fails, bummer, but it would be worth a try. So how about wednesdays?

[dicemanX]

I know I personally cannot make it on week-nights, but lets see if anyone else is interested. You might want to start up a thread at mtgontario to see who would be interested.

[Razvan]

Bummer. How about sunday nights? 6pm start? That could work.

I will try on mtgontario. Thanks.

I hope to see you guys one of these days.

[seth]

I'm up for it proxy or not.Weekends and evenings are best for me.

Shock Wave I normally agree with you on most topics but I have to disagree with you on this point Hairy T's smells more like Otto's jacket than a steaming cat box.

[mtgmooner]

Ill be there as long at is an evening or weekend...every time guranteed.  All for the proxies as long as a standard is implemented for their play usage...bring it on.

[TorbinWren]

I would love more type 1 in the Toronto area.

Proxies or no - bring it on.

Cyril