I: identify the problem(s) ::::: here we need to f...

[vaneger]

I: identify the problem(s) :::::
   here we need to find decks or cards
   that show up in large frequency
   and determine why.
Ia:examine PT and PTQ top 8 lists
Ib:examine PT and PTQ round 1 decks
Ic:examine player input on format

II:indentify possible solutions:::::
   here we gather ideas on how
   to fix the indentified issues.
IIa:make note of popular decks
that are not consistent with the given problems
IIb:indentify all cards that show initial distortion of format
IIc:determine what is most common attribute of said cards

III:mock implement indentified solutions::::
   here we examine the effect of proposed fixes.
IIIa:determine what cards may be too strong in "fixed" situation
IIIb:evolve solutions to compensate for possible redistortion of a format

IV:rexamine current banned list and watch lists:::::
   here we check if our proposed solution negates the
   distorting potential of preveiously removed cards.

those are the rules for evaluating a format. more important than these rules are the rules of magic. the game is meant to be both fun and interactive.


now to deploy these rules apon the format that is currently in need of fixing, extended.


Ia:the PT decks show that tinker based decks are dominant

Ib: i my self do not have time to record statistics for this but it is helpful to know the format's opening run on a given day.

Ic:the player input has pointed to multiple cards that may be causing disturbances in the force i i mean format.

IIa: here we have Tog, U/g madness,the Rock,aluren and reaminator as well as others that may surface.

IIb:the cards that then appear to be the problems are:

tinker,goblin recruiter,grim monolith,city of traitors,vampiric tutor,mystical tutor,ancient tomb,metal worker and voltaic key.

IIc:what these cards have in common is their speed and efficency.They are too fast and too consistent to avoid degenerate gaming situations.They break the fundemental safe guards of magic's built in system of interaction by increasing the card selection and mana avalible early in the game and consequently reduce the interaction among players.

IIIa: under this banning regime the turns alotted to a player stand to increase from 1 - 3 to 4 - 6. Cards that could surface and distort format at that point are as follows: goblin charbelcher,duress,intution,chrome mox,chalice of the void,goblin welder,myr incubator,hermit druid and force spike.

IIIb:at this point the game loses its coin flip based speed but retains potential game altering cards such as duress,intuition,hermit druid and goblin welder  that can lead to loss of interactivity.so considering that the modified banned list would be:

tinker,goblin recruiter,grim monolith,city of traitors,vampiric tutor,mystical tutor,ancient tomb,metal worker,voltaic key,duress and intuition.

IV:after removal of the given group of cards there are no cards on the banned list that warrant imediate removal except frantic search because the lands that were used to generate mana with its 'free' mechanic would be gone.

final synposis:
ban::::::
tinker,goblin recruiter,grim monolith,city of traitors,vampiric tutor,mystical tutor,ancient tomb,metal worker,voltaic key,duress and intuition

unban:::::
frantic search

watch::::
hermit druid,goblin charbelcher and goblin welder.

[BrokenDeck]

Well, that's an interesting way of looking at things.  I definitely think frantic search should stay banned, you still have sapphire medallion.

How does duress lead to a lack of interactivity? I mean, it specifically interacts with your opponent, therefore it is quite interactive in my opinion.  Also, when you banned all of those cards, you neutered combo.  While it is bad to have a lot of combo, too little combo really sucks too, because then control starts to blow, and everyone is playing elves.  I therefore suggest banning timberwatch elf.

[vaneger]

the problem is combinational decks being too fast. duress hurts your opponent's hand before he might get a chance to use it to interact with your cards. cabal therapy will still be legal, but having both is too much fast discard that can stop an opponent from having any interactivity at all.leaving one Bcc discard spell around would be ok but having both is too harmful to allow outside of type 1.

[jpmeyer]

Blast off and nuke the planet from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

[fuzzedball]

Quote Blast off and nuke the planet from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

{insert obligatory religious concurrence}

[Comrade Seraph]

Duress isn't really used in Extended the way it is in T1. With much less fast coloured mana, it tends to be used by aggro decks looking to improve their matchup vs. combo/control, rather than by combo clearing the way. You'll notice that it was hardly played at the last Ex tourney - without FoW waiting in the shadows, there was nothing worth spending time clearing from a control deck's hand when one could just go off instead.

Oh, and if combo did get slow enough that it was using duress to clear *counterspell*, of all things, it probably wouldn't be format-distoring problem anymore.

Other restrictions look fine but excessive-  ban several main parts of the artifact decks and the rest won't be an archetype anymore - tinker and the fast mana lands+grim would do it.

[Tripps]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Nov. 27 2003,16:31)Blast off and nuke the planet from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

Amen, are you sure we dont need to ban Island, Mountain, Forest, Swamp, and Plains too? I mean, those ARE pretty format distorting.

[skycreatoR]

Quote (BrokenDeck @ Nov. 27 2003,15:09)Well, that's an interesting way of looking at things.  I definitely think frantic search should stay banned, you still have sapphire medallion.

I disagree. I play a Desire deck that consistently (That being 99%) goes of in Turn4 - without a Frantic Search.. Even tho', i want my Time Spiral back!

But the point is, that Frantic Search is not the real powergenerator in the desire deck it used to be. I would love to have them back, but they are not crucial.

Tinker is ultra fast, and it do need a banning. But with Tinker out, and Frantic back in, we might face the same problem .. Maybe the world cant work with two (2)(U) cc cards in the same format

[vaneger]

perhaps i am wrong about duress, but everything else needs to go and the format will be much better for it. i dont understand why i get so much negative feedback when i try to write one of those meaningful posts.

[Ric_Flair]

Quote tinker,goblin recruiter,grim monolith,city of traitors,vampiric tutor,mystical tutor,ancient tomb,metal worker,voltaic key,duress and intuition

Doing this essential be rotating the format without killing Morphling and Cursed Scroll.

I would assert that any of the following are better and more ban-worthy than any of the cards you listed, aside from Tinker, Recruiter, and Ancient Tomb:  

Chrome Mox
Psychatog
Goblin Charbelcher


Furthermore I would assert that any of the following cards are better and more ban-worthy than the weakest of your choices, Duress and Intuition:

Chrome Mox
Psychatog
Goblin Charbelcher
Counterspell
AK
Oath of Druids
Treetop Village
Wasteland
Pernicious Deed
Cursed Scroll
Fact or Fiction
Cunning Wish

I understand your desire to slow the format down, but your list seems awfully arbitrary, besides Tinker, Ancient Tomb, and Goblin Recruiter.  Why ban Intuition when AK is the card that everyone gets?  Why ban Duress, ever?  Why ban any of the cards except the big three, when Chrome Mox is legal.  Chrome Mox, in my mind, is the next most egregiously broken card in the format.  It allows for fast Charbelchers, Goblins, and Tog decks, all of which actually posted numbers at PT:NO, unlike other cards you listed.  This list, aside from the three obvious cards that even illiterate people know need banning, is very arbitrary, and without statistical or theoretical support.\n\n

[BrokenDeck]

Umm... maybe it is because he wants to slow the format down, not take every tier 1 2 or 3 deck and chop it to pieces.  Ban psychatog!?!?! Why? Psychatog is an extremely balanced card.  It may be powerful, but so is morphling.  So lets ban morphling too.  Hell, platinum angel is good with final fantasy.  Let's ban that too.  Unless creatures do something really broken on turn two, they don't really need to be banned.

[jpmeyer]

When people say "Blast off and nuke the planet from orbit" with regards to Extended, they mean "sync it up with online Extended."  That removes the following cards from the mix:

Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Tinker
Mana Severance
Hermit Druid
Grim Monolith
Intuition
Aluren
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Goblin Recruiter
Goblin Welder
Voltaic Key
Burst of Energy

[vaneger]

intuition is capable of being used to do many things and thus it helps slow down the search engines of any deck that would use it without neutering the deck. chrome mox wont be as good as you think if people use powder kegs/pernicous deeds
and they will be cause the format will slow to where those cards can be played again. my list slows the format down yours doesnt fix enough of the speed to make it a healthy format again. with the exceptions of mox diamond and chrome mox mine gets rid of the speed because having it around ruins the format entirely, togs and charbelchers do not. the cahrbelcher isnt broken w/o speed to make it that way. and with the loss of tutors the mana severance deck snt as consitent either.
basically my list would fix the format yours would require bannings a month later.

[Zherbus]

Wrong Forum.