Allright, I dig the new tog JP. It seems to be adressing ...

[jazzy kat]

Allright, I dig the new tog JP. It seems to be adressing a lot of the silliness(stifle for decree, and tendrils) Plenty of land +strips. No off color mox.

It really looks like it uses a lot of the keeper base, but opts for lower casting cost cards and a much faster kill condition.
I was wondering if in a relatively unpowered meta, how nescessary are the jet, emerald, and ruby. I have everything else and my semipowered keeper is astastically slow, but is just better than the other decks. I am concerned that I may meet someone at the next tourney that is playing a good deck (not nescessarily powered) and I am too slow. I know I could just play fish, but I would rather use tog.

I will be testing against my friends but they don't play much T1 tomorrow or Sunday and I will try to provide some useful results.

Thanks,

JK

[Balzary]

A couple of questions JP:
     Having 5 strips obviously improves the matchup against Dragon greatly, although from my experience, they are not as effective against Workshop based decks, since its more critical to get mana drain online.  I realize you want to slow down workshop decks a turn, but even with only one use, it seems you will be behind tempo wise regardless, based on what's going to come down for 3 colourless.

     Also, are 2 Gorilla Shamans enough to deal with Chalice?  I could rehash all the old arguements about Chalice for 2 and 3 vs Hulk/Tog, but I'll just leave it by asking whether two answers with the same casting cost is sufficient in your opinion.

[MTG_Djinn]

Have to agree the build looks good.

Im just very worried of an eary CotV. Like "st00mie" said there is 14 1CC and 10 2CC cards and no artifact removal besides Gorilla Shaman. I will test it to see if there is no need for it.

It looks really good against kontrol (keeper, dragon, stax, wMUD ect) but what about the aggro decks (low cc decks)? Here im thinking about Fish, WW, Sligh and Goblin. My current meta is running a lot of Goblin.
At my local store today 3 decks in top 4 were red (1. Goblin 2. Goblin and 4. Sligh/Goblin)

The question is: What do you do about creatures on the table if you havent got a psyk down. Have in mind im talking about creatures in turn 1 and 2.

Is a Naturalize not worth looking into, to you have as a back up if you dont get the Gorilla Shaman before CotV?

@Balzary
The best way to shut Psyk down is an early CotV for 1, mainly because you take out brainstorm. He really needs it to dig for lands in the start.

-MTG_Djinn

[Tanadan]

Against Workshop, mana denial works because you will deal with their first threat, and then trade Wastelands or Shaman activations for sources of multiple mana; thus, you will reach two mana before they have enough mana to cast another threat.

Also note that you have Stifle and Cunning Wish to deal with CotV.

As for Naturalize, you have Rack and Ruin and Artifact Mutation for artifacts, and the Coffin Purge and Capsize for enchantments, and they are simply more versatile than Naturalize.

[jpmeyer]

If you're on the play, Mana Drain is better than Wasteland although both are still good, but if you're on the draw Mana Drain is dead while Wasteland is critical.

Shaman is actually a really strong answer to Chalice.  If another control deck is Chalicing, they need to make X=3 or else the effect is usually only results in a slight gain that typically doesn't really do anything for the other deck.  If the other deck is a Workshop deck, they have to worry about X=1.  If they do X=1 to get card advantage against me, they have to give up their Goblin Welders, which is probably their best threat against me.  If they try to go for X=3, I still have plenty of time since I can still cast Mana Drain, Gorilla Shaman, or Stifle.  Previously, the best Chalice target to hurt the Tog deck was X=2, but now it's X=1, which cuts into the Workshop deck a lot more.

Creatures suck.  Every creature in the format save Phyrexian Dreadnaught dies to a Tog with minimal effort.  The only creatures that can actually do anything to the deck are Curious, flying Fish.  Sligh is actually probably the deck's best matchup, and this comes from the fact that they don't have a single threat in their deck outside of turn 1 Lackey.  That's it.

[BreathWeapon]

It looks like JP did a damn good job with the deck. Oddly enough, it almost resembles budget GAT decks in a way. Notice how most of the budget versions of GAT used Red and Strip/Waste lands in their non-powered builds to make up for lost Power? Perhaps the "Newb Tech" trickled up

Stifle is some good. After the death of Misdirection, I think every aggro/control style deck should be using Stifle in its place. Its an instant Sinkhole for U, and does all sorts of other cool stuff as a bonus! I don't think its the answer vs Tendrils, you'll get hit by Duress/Therapy before Tendrils, but it is a HOUSE vs Dragon.

I'm sleeving this bad boy up already

[MTG_Djinn]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Nov. 22 2003,14:10)

Quote I'm sleeving this bad boy up already

Me too  

Im just worried of sligh and Goblin, but testing will tell, if im wrong or right.

-MTG_Djinn

[BreathWeapon]

I think I am going to re-work the manabase a bit and drop the Manadrains for Dryads. GATr with LD seems like a sexy idea, and Hulk/GAT are pretty similar now.

[Balzary]

Quote Against Workshop, mana denial works because you will deal with their first threat, and then trade Wastelands or Shaman activations for sources of multiple mana; thus, you will reach two mana before they have enough mana to cast another threat.

I have to disagree with this.  You are saying that by using Wasteland on the first Workshop, (let's say for example a turn 1 Wasteland vs a turn 1 Workshop) you have effectively dealt with the first threat?  My arguement is that Wasteland is not going to help you get to two blue mana sources since whatever is coming down off the Workshop mana (Metalworker, Tangle Wire, Chalice for one) is going to be enough to put you behind tempo wise.  And that's assuming I get no other acceleration in my opening hand.  The only way your example is going to work in your favour is if I were to go Workshop, Sphere, go.  As a wMud player, I can assure you that I am not going to do this unless I have another Workshop or dropped a couple of Moxen along with it.  The only matchups where "Workshop, Sphere, go" is not extremely risky is Dragon and Long.  

Quote @Balzary
The best way to shut Psyk down is an early CotV for 1, mainly because you take out brainstorm. He really needs it to dig for lands in the start.

I'm not argueing over what to set CotV at against Tog, I happen to agree that 1 is the best option against this newest version.  I just have doubts as to whether having only 2 maindeck answers with casting cost of one is enough to deal with CotV effectively.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the deck or anything.  In fact, I am in total support of adding the 5 Strip effects to it.  Without them, Tog cannot effectively deal with Dragon's draw engine once it get's going.  I just think that against Workshop decks, they are not going to be effective enough to tilt the matchup into a favourable one for Tog.  I also have no doubt that JP has tested extensively enough so that he feels that 2 Shamans are adequate to deal with CotV (Plus the Cunning Wish's, although I feel they will be too slow against an average wMud draw).  I just personally feel that it needs a more diverse curve and wouldn't feel safe enough without a Naturalize and/or Deeds in the main deck.

[jpmeyer]

Quote I have to disagree with this.  You are saying that by using Wasteland on the first Workshop, (let's say for example a turn 1 Wasteland vs a turn 1 Workshop) you have effectively dealt with the first threat?  My arguement is that Wasteland is not going to help you get to two blue mana sources since whatever is coming down off the Workshop mana (Metalworker, Tangle Wire, Chalice for one) is going to be enough to put you behind tempo wise.  And that's assuming I get no other acceleration in my opening hand.  The only way your example is going to work in your favour is if I were to go Workshop, Sphere, go.  As a wMud player, I can assure you that I am not going to do this unless I have another Workshop or dropped a couple of Moxen along with it.  The only matchups where "Workshop, Sphere, go" is not extremely risky is Dragon and Long.  

You're correct.  This won't help you get to UU faster.  But if you're going second, they'll have the opportunity to cast another threat before you have that UU up and now you're in trouble.  The Wastelands are for when you are going second, not first.

Quote I'm not argueing over what to set CotV at against Tog, I happen to agree that 1 is the best option against this newest version.  I just have doubts as to whether having only 2 maindeck answers with casting cost of one is enough to deal with CotV effectively.

The deck has a more diverse mana curve than before, but it's more subtle.  Before, the big Chalice target was X=2, with X=0 also being quite good because the deck was running a higher mana curve with more acceleration before.  X=3 was a game winner, but since it takes 6 mana to cast, it's hard to pull off without a Metalworker.  X=1 was typically not that great since you had to trade access to Goblin Welder to stop stuff like Brainstorm.

Now, there are more options that need to be weighed.  X=1 suddenly becomes important, because Shaman and Stifle can stop other Chalices.  Of course, this also requires the loss of Goblin Welder so it's a difficult decision.  Now that X=1 is important to shut down, X=0 becomes more of a luxury, and this then weakens your symmetrical cards in Tangle Wire and Smokestack since it's harder to outperm them.  X=3 is now quite weak because the 3cc cards in Tog tend to be cast either ASAP (Intuition) or not until the deck has taken its sweet time setting up (Tog.)  Personally, I think the best Chalice target is still X=2, but now Chalicing is a lot more difficult and requires and rewards more skill and experience, which is a good thing about the card.

[Balzary]

JP:

Thanks for your insights into CotV.

I have a couple more questions that I hope you could take the time to answer.

No Blue Elemental Blast in the sideboard.  Especially against Workshops decks, access to mana will be tight.  In your testing, has the extra mana needed for Terminate to kill off a Welder come up?  Or is this a tradeoff to having a (almost universal) 2 casting cost answer to other creatures? (Dreadnought, other Togs)

With no basic islands, are you worried at all about Blood Moon, and to a lesser extent, Back to Basics?

[jpmeyer]

While I'm not worried about Blood Moon or Back to Basics simply because I have not seen either of them in forever, I actually do wish that I had room for a BEB because it really is a quite useful card for killing problem creatures, namely Welder and Shaman.  There just simply isn't a slot for it right now, which is why I'm using Terminate so that I can cover more bases at once.

[blue_negator]

Looks pretty interesting, is the cookie monster going to make a comeback? There was a GAT w/scepter that did pretty good at waterbury that seems interesting too.  And it does seem that GAT and hulk are becoming more similar.  Which is how it should be imo.  With the lost of gush GAT just doesn't have the raw speed/power to win the old way.

[MTG_Djinn]

@jpmeyer
I cant figure out how you dont regard goblin as a very bad match up. I have done some some testing against goblin and if I dont gette a very good start I just get hammerd by them. Even if I get a Tog down fast it cant hold the masiv overrun of goblins back, and if I can I have non cards in my graveyard to the kill.

-MTG_Djinn

[jpmeyer]

I just don't know what else to say.  Sligh just can't attack through a Psychatog without throwing away a card to do like 2 damage.  They can't win that race.  If you drop Tog, Jackal Pup and Goblin Cadets simply can't attack, so you are really left with just trying to poke through for single points of damage with Lackey/Fanatic or like 3 points with Piledriver, which soon becomes 1 point.

Honestly, their only chance to beat you is turn 1 Lackey that you can't answer back with a Gorilla Shaman or Stifle.

[Matt The Great]

How does stifle do more than buy a turn? On the second attack, you need to have a Tog down...but how often do you get a tog by turn two, with only three in the deck?

I suppose you could go crazy with Power and Wish for a kill spell, but that's even less likely to do turn two.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

The Stifle actually isn't for Lackey.  It's for if they drop Siege-Gang with Lackey.

[MTG_Djinn]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Nov. 28 2003,09:51)The Stifle actually isn't for Lackey.  It's for if they drop Siege-Gang with Lackey.

How does what work?
I mean, can you Stifle when he sais that he wants to put a Siege down or if its another then dont Stifle.

-MTG_Djinn

[jpmeyer]

No, you do it to stop them from getting the 3 1/1s.  Without the 1/1s Siege-Gang isn't so hot.

[MTG_Djinn]

Still dont get it. You say its not for lackey but then it is for lackey!

[MoreFling]

Quote (MTG_Djinn @ Nov. 30 2003,21:10)Still dont get it. You say its not for lackey but then it is for lackey!

It's for stopping the Siege-Gang dropped THROUGH lacky to actually do something. Try dictionary.com.

[Dante]

Quote (MoreFling @ Nov. 30 2003,14:46)

Quote (MTG_Djinn @ Nov. 30 2003,21:10)Still dont get it. You say its not for lackey but then it is for lackey!

It's for stopping the Siege-Gang dropped THROUGH lacky to actually do something. Try dictionary.com.

To further clarify the Stifle/Seige-gang issue, you are stifling the triggered coming-into-play ability of the Siege GC to put 3 1/1s into play, you are not Stifling anything related to lackey.

Bill