December 1, 2003Well I'm sitting here at work occasio...

[Diaonic]

December 1, 2003

Well I'm sitting here at work occasionally refreshing the DCI page anxiously waiting the new ban / restricted list. Its finally up and let me be the first to say I'm glad I'm not an extended player.

So for those of you who live under a rock here is the current list we are looking at. I was quite shocked when I saw the list for two reasons. First off those of you who know me are probably aware I'm in complete love with madness and Lion's Eye Diamond getting restricted poses some potential problems in that department. The second being I anticipated Dragon to take more of a hit then Long. But I guess my self an wizards don't see eye to eye on this one, and thats probably for the best.


Announcement Date: December 1, 2003
Effective Date: January 1, 2004
Standard
No changes

Extended
Ancient Tomb is banned
Goblin Recruiter is banned
Grim Monolith is banned
Hermit Druid is banned
Oath of Druids is banned
Tinker is banned

Type 1
Burning Wish is restricted
Chrome Mox is restricted
Lion’s Eye Diamond is restricted

Type 1.5
(All cards on the Type 1 Banned and Restricted Lists are banned in Type 1.5.)
Burning Wish is banned
Chrome Mox is banned
Lion’s Eye Diamond is banned


So the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not madness can survive this restriction, and still be a viable deck in the current meta game. So since i know there is a lot of debate about what the optimal cards are for this deck. I'm going to point you to the primer written by Hyperion, reason being he lists several different versions of this deck an it will give us something to fall back on and use as a reference.

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....t=10431

Lion's Eye Diamond in madness – This card served several purposes, a discard outlet, a mana source, improved the chance to land an explosive turn 1 hand.

Now I'm fully aware that we can not just say: “oh i know a card that will do all that an fits the right in.” Because to my knowledge theres not one.

I'm really curious to see how some of the more established people on these forums are going to tackle this potent problem.

Anyway lets see what we can come up with.

-Diaonic
Sad day for one of the biggest madness supporters  

[skycreatoR]

Madness might have to live on in our hearts - but we all know, it just  

[SummenSaugen]

Much as I hate to say it, now might be the time to run Careful Study.  Without the explosiveness of LED, the deck needs staying power.  Careful Study covers for a Wasted Bazaar, and helps to find the second one.

Though, I don't think Madness can any longer be considered a top aggro deck.  Better than Sligh, yes.  Better than Fish?  Probably not.  Better than TnT?  I say no.  Prove me wrong guys.  Trust me when I say, I want so very much to be proved wrong on this.

[wuaffiliate]

hopefully the rest of the block will give something to push madness back to being good enough.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, the full set of Careful studies is now mandatory for sure. The loss of 3 LED can be compensated for by including the off color Moxen and other mana accelerators. It wont be the same, but it will still be "playable."

[Diaonic]

@ Ben

Quote Much as I hate to say it, now might be the time to run Careful Study.  Without the explosiveness of LED, the deck needs staying power.  Careful Study covers for a Wasted Bazaar, and helps to find the second one.

Though, I don't think Madness can any longer be considered a top aggro deck.  Better than Sligh, yes.  Better than Fish?  Probably not.  Better than TnT?  I say no.  Prove me wrong guys.  Trust me when I say, I want so very much to be proved wrong on this.

I totaly agree now might be the time to use careful study. I'm still trying to brainstorm some new concepts an maybe we can take a different view on this deck.

[SummenSaugen]

The off color moxen were a necessity before this happened.  The deck CRAVES Wild Mongrel on the first turn, and now it needs it even more.

[PaalRune]

How about Manabond?
I will try adding 2x to my deck. I think they might be good.

[Diaonic]

Well after spending the last few hours browsing www.crystalkeep.com, I'v had a major breakthrough...












Breakthrough
Color= Blue  Type= Sorcery  Cost= XU TO(U)  
Text (TO): Draw four cards, then choose X cards in your hand and discard the rest from it.

Even if x = 0 this is a draw 4 discard 4. Still sorcery speed. Seems better then careful study to me.

Maybe this could replace LED.

Thoughts?

-Diaonic

[GoogleBoots]

One HUGE problem with the loss of LED is the mana. It gave you the discard AND the mana to Madness things in. It will change the mana accel in the deck, forcing it to be faster to survive, however I do like the ideas of Breakthrough and Careful Study.

[SummenSaugen]

The only thing I don't like about Breakthrough is that if you cast it very early, like first turn, you might force yourself to drop a bazaar.

That might be a little too important of a setback.

[Diaonic]

@ Ben

Quote The only thing I don't like about Breakthrough is that if you cast it very early, like first turn, you might force yourself to drop a bazaar.

That might be a little too important of a setback.

This is true, I think it atleast deserves testing. It appears too atleast have some explosivness.

[Hyperion]

I think Madness will still be a competitive deck. LED provided fast mana and a discard outlet, and while there aren't any other options available that combine both functions as efficiently, there are plenty of each to chose from.

What the restriction of LED means is the following-

-as has been noted, there is no longer any excuse for running less than 4 Careful Study. I argued that this was the case before restriction, and now it is even more true.

-if you weren't running off-color Moxen before, run them now, or run some other form of acceleration. The other logical choices are Mana Crypt, Chrome Mox, and possibly even Lotus Petal. Unfortunately, this makes building it on a budget more difficult because you lose 3 LEDs for acceleration.

-you need additional discard outlets. Even 4 Wild Mongrel, 4 Careful Study, 4 Bazaar of Baghdad and 1 Lion's Eye Diamond probably aren't enough. Intuition, or even Frantic Search, appear to be the best alternatives at this point in time.

I avoided heavy testing of Madness with 1 LED until it was formally announced that it was getting restricted. However, it will go back to the testing stages in the near future, and I anticipate a post-January build looking something like this:

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Roar of the Wurm
2 Anger
1 Wonder

4 Careful Study
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Fiery Temper
3 Deep Analysis
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond\n\n

[Sandster]

Is an aggro-control version more viable?  For example, MD Circular Logic and Force of Will and maybe even the Intuition+Squee+Bazaar engine that Dragon runs.  A build like this would be much less dependant on the Lion's Eye Diamond as you don't really want to discard your hand, and with acceleration the deck should to able to cast the stuff fairly early on.  The beaters, of course, will still stay.

[BrokenDeck]

And what would you remove for these cards? I mean, those cards take up 20 cards as is, there is little room left for beatdown then.

[Razor]

So far, I like the Careful Study and Breakthrough suggestions.  NB. I haven't ever run Madness.  However, I do recall some tech from my 2001 Pandeburst deck:

Compulsion

Color= Blue  Type= Enchantment  Cost= 1U TO(U)  
Text (TO): ,Discard a card from your hand: Draw a card. ; ,Sacrifice ~this~: Draw a card.

Attunement

Color= Blue  Type= Enchantment  Cost= 2U US®  
Text (US+errata): Return ~this~ to owner's hand: Draw three cards, then discard four cards from your hand. [Oracle 1999/05/01]

These serve as extra Bazaars of sorts.  Some even argued that Attunements were better....

I am wondering about this, especially for aggro metas:

Zombie Infestation

Color= Black  Type= Enchantment  Cost= 1B OD(U)  
Text (OD): Discard two cards from your hand: Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.

Hurkyl's Recall *could* really promote broken mana-production and discard at end of turn:

Hurkyl's Recall

Color= Blue  Type= Instant  Cost= 1U AQ(U1)/R®/4®/5®  
Text (5th+errata): Return all artifacts target player owns to his or her hand. [Oracle 2000/02/01]\n\n

[Argopile]

 
Ok a few thoughts....  Frantic Search is expensive and can't be cast easily first or even second turn, but mid to late game it's a free careful study that can untap your bazaar for you at instant speed.  I think it deserves the 4th study slot.  

I'd rather run a Wheel of Fortune than Breakthrough.  It does the same thing but draws you 7 cards vs. 4 for the same price.  And you get to keep the cards you draw.  Uber there....  

Intuition is highly deserving of it's two slots.  It can grab you any Three of: 4 incarnation, 3 Roar or 3 DA spells and it can grab Squee.  I admit I've never even bothered to try the Careful Studies in all the time I've played madness (since it was first printed) so I'm not sure how to time them.  Any advice on how to use them?  As in before or after a Bazaar draw?  Or maybe use them instead of Bazaar so you can save you Bazaar for a reactive draw on your opponents turn or at the end of his turn?  I know the idea is to use them first turn, but they are nowhere near as good first turn now that LED is unlikely to show up as regularly.  With out that that burst of 3 mana it is going to be really hard getting big beats out as quick.  So early on the focus has to be to get a solid base of 3-4 mana rather than big critters.  

Which makes me leery of using Bazaar overly much.  It might actually be worth running a Squee just to temper the Bazaar.  You don't have to discard him unless you need to not drop something else.  He isn't really a dead card in hand if you can avoid topping him. One is all you would need to be able to tap a Bazaar after topdecking something else and still keep a card.  Which is a good thing since we now have less fast mana to accomadate madness spells and less discardable cards at that. You have 2 Intuition to go fetch him and the other goodies so that you won't top them.  

Upping the Roars at the cost of Arrogant Wurms might be worth considering since the roars can sit in your graveyard till you can cast them.  On the other hand Roar is at sorcery speed while a madness Arrogant is at instant speed and costs one less.  
Hmmm dunno.

This is what im going to try:

*The Hurt*
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Roar of the Wurm
4 Fiery Temper
*Wacky Stuff*
1 Time Walk
3 Anger
1 Wonder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
*Draw me!*
3 Careful Study
1 Frantic Search
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Deep Analysis
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Wheel of Fortune
*Maaanaaa*
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
Yes i know it has 61 cards in it.  I always run 61.

And now let us make Madness feared yet again!  MWA HA HA HA HA HA!!!  and shit....
 

@Razor  Running black would be a huge mistake because this deck has enough trouble (specially now that we've lost 3 LED's) with mana.  Adding another color to support would be very foolish IMHO.

[Diaonic]

December 2, 2003

As you all know I'v been working vigorously on a new madness build that will compete at the same level as the current version's. So after testing about 20 games against Gat ( Grand Inquisitor's current build). Madness won about ¾ of the matches. Now I still have a lot more testing ahead of me, but i wanted to get a version up that i feel fairly confident about and will give everyone an idea if they are interested in testing this archetype.

So heres the build I tested last night.

Team Lizard Beatz
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Roar of the wurm

Pimp Card Draw
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Twister
1 Wheel of Fortune

Fun to discard
4 Fiery Temper
2 Anger
2 Wonder

Stuff that doesn't draw
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Time Walk
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Lands
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Riftstone Portal

Heres a little bit of card break down

Careful Study – With the loss of Lion's Eye Diamond this card needs to be in every version of madness for the following reasons, you need this to smooth out your draws so you can set your self up for a better mana base, and you need more discard outlets in the deck.

Lotus petal – I'm still testing this and other cards in this slot could be: Chrome mox, Mana Crypt. The deck needs acceleration now. This provides us with a sub par version of that.

Riftstone Portal – This is my first time testing this card, and with the limited testing i did last night it worked very well. It lets your drop a bazaar first turn an still keep your mana base up. It has great synergy with Mox Diamond. And with the growing rate of Blood Moons in the format this would help that match up a lot.

If there are any questions about the rest of my card choices feel free to ask and I will try to answer them in a timely fashion.

Thanks for reading and your input means a lot.

-Diaonic

[Sytupal]

Attunement  


Attunement  CC: 2U
Enchantment, Rare
Return ~this~ to owner's hand: Draw three cards, then
discard four cards from your hand. [Oracle 1999/05/01]

[Diaonic]

Quote Attunement  


Attunement  CC: 2U
Enchantment, Rare
Return ~this~ to owner's hand: Draw three cards, then
discard four cards from your hand. [Oracle 1999/05/01]

Seems very slow, for 3 mana I would rather be casting an Arrogant wurm, or a draw seven.

[ascribe]

I have always been a proponent of running Squee, but I have tempered my enthusiasm by perhaps cutting the number to two. He simply wins games and is versatile.

Frantic Search is a good option to replace one of the LED's by providing an effect similar to LED, albeit a turn or two later.

Another thought I have had is a return to the deck's roots. What about throwing a couple Oath of Scholars back into the mix? I know it doesn't provide the same function of LED by acting as mana and a discard outlet, but it will draw us to more threats and mana so it may be a solid choice as a 2 of.

Intuition may belong back in the deck. I initially ran a pair of them, but yanked it out after posting on another madness thread.

Just a thought. I guess I am really interested to hear if anyone thinks a couple Oaths would be a decent idea, despite the 4cc.

[Diaonic]

Quote Frantic Search is a good option to replace one of the LED's by providing an effect similar to LED, albeit a turn or two later.

I don't think Frantic search makes the cut anymore. For two reasons, it is basically a 3 casting cost careful study. And you can only run 1 of them in your deck making it quite random. It does have good synergy with Arrogant wurm and draw sevens. But I don't think that is enough to warrant a spot in the deck.

Quote Another thought I have had is a return to the deck's roots. What about throwing a couple Oath of Scholars back into the mix? I know it doesn't provide the same function of LED by acting as mana and a discard outlet, but it will draw us to more threats and mana so it may be a solid choice as a 2 of.

I always have like Oath of scholars, but reality always hits me when its in my hand. It still costs 4 mana, and takes an additional turn to use it.

Squee has never realy been there for me, id would rather be discarding spells that do something then something that gives me more cards. You have to rember madness doesn't want cards in its hand.

Intuition in my opinion falls under the same category as Attuement, I have alot of 3cc drops as is, that I would rather be playing.

-Diaonic

[BreathWeapon]

With the need for more Madness outlets I think it is time to definately cut Wonder. He just isn't worth it MD vs multiple match ups and will still be in the SB for when he is. Rector is gone and so is Tog, why are we devoting two slots to Wonder when we need them more than ever? The Volcanic Islands should probably go for Artifact Accerleration or maybe Elvish Spirit Guide?

Man I wish they would have just banned Yawgmoth's Will instead of killing Madness, bastards.

[Diaonic]

Quote With the need for more Madness outlets I think it is time to definately cut Wonder. He just isn't worth it MD vs multiple match ups and will still be in the SB for when he is. Rector is gone and so is Tog, why are we devoting two slots to Wonder when we need them more than ever? The Volcanic Islands should probably go for Artifact Accerleration or maybe Elvish Spirit Guide?

wonder wins games against, fish, sligh, stompy,suicide, mask, Gat, urphid. It's great in a RL metagame.

I still think it deserves two slots. If i could find room for 1 more anger I would but slots are tight as is.

Quote  Man I wish they would have just banned Yawgmoth's Will instead of killing Madness, bastards.

I blame Steve M.  


-Diaonic

[iLL_Dawg]

As much as the restrictions hurt me personally, I think that at least one good thing might come out of them.  Me and Andy might finally agree on a build.

Right after I read the updates to the B & R list, Ben (SummerSausage) called me up and told me to take off my hat and have a moment of silence for madness.  I told him it was finally time to run the studies, 4 foil copies of which have been sitting in the madness section of my binder for months.  If Andy is saying that it's time for the off-color moxen to come in, he should also soon realize that the draw-7's should come back iinto his build as well.  Maybe, for once, we can come closer to a unified build.

-=ADAM=-

[Diaonic]

Quote As much as the restrictions hurt me personally, I think that at least one good thing might come out of them.  Me and Andy might finally agree on a build.

Right after I read the updates to the B & R list, Ben (SummerSausage) called me up and told me to take off my hat and have a moment of silence for madness.  I told him it was finally time to run the studies, 4 foil copies of which have been sitting in the madness section of my binder for months.  If Andy is saying that it's time for the off-color moxen to come in, he should also soon realize that the draw-7's should come back iinto his build as well.  Maybe, for once, we can come closer to a unified build.

Thats what im talking about Adam, lets get some positive thinking going on this, I realy think madness can adapt to the enviroment and be good maybe even better now that long is gone.

What do you think of the current list I'v been testing?

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think Wonder does anything vs Fish, Goblins, Stompy, Suicide other than "Win Now!" It is only pertinant vs Mask and Tog/Gat, and those match ups are few and far between at the moment. It all depends on what is needed at the moment, and outlets have priority over a situational metagame choice ... which is what Wonder has become IMO.

In the absence of LED are Draw Sevens really advisable over Intuition? The Brokenness of Windfall/Wheel of Fortune doesn't seem to be there anymore without them.

Although its been said already, I think we can all agree that 4 Careful Study are a must and the full set of Jewelry is in. I think the deck will definately need to increase the number of Anger to 3 in order to make up for a loss of initial speed, and look to Intuition as its source of additional Outlets/Resources.\n\n

[Diaonic]

Quote In the absence of LED are Draw Sevens really advisable over Intuition? The Brokenness of Windfall/Wheel of Fortune doesn't seem to be there anymore without them.

When i'm talking about Draw Sevens, I mean Time twister and Wheel of Fortune. I have never like Windfall because it is to conditional.

As for the wonder issue, it is all metagame dependent. In the northeast I run 2 main deck, because i am usually playing at a store in an unknown meta. In that situation wonder is better. It's better to have the tools, then be stuck with no utility at all.

I do agree with you on the third anger though.

[Matt The Great]

Some form of additional acceleration is needed, but off-color Moxen aren't necessarily the best choice. ESG is a really good card - it always worked wonders for me in 1.5 Madness. It's also another threat, and basically immune to Chalice (you have nothing else at cc=3, and its mana ability can't be stopped by anything in the game [That I can think of]). It's also green mana under a Blood Moon, if it comes to that. Also, with the loss of LEDs, you might even be able to sideboard IN Null Rod, which could be very, very strong against MUD and Scepter-control.

This is by no means definite but it's something to consider.

About Intuition: I don't think this belongs in a pure aggro version of Madness. I might consider it in something like the most-controlling U/G builds from T2 or 1.x, but it's basically a flat-out inferior use of three mana. That mana could be a threat or be drawing you 5-7 new cards. It's a good card, and there may be a home for it in an aggro-control Madness deck (sporting Logics, and maybe Mana Leak or Force of Will), but it shouldn't come near a true aggro build. This same logic applies to Squee. If I were going to run Intuitions, I'd try replacing the incarnations, since I'd only need 1-2 Anger and only one Wonder.

Frantic Search:

Quote Ok a few thoughts....  Frantic Search is expensive and can't be cast easily first or even second turn, but

Stop right there. That's already enough to make the card useless in type one, because your first three mana sources aren't likely to be all land. It was great in 1.x to get insane consistency (and where you could Frantic into another Frantic) but it's no good here.

Attunement isn't good either, because not only does it cost mana, but it's also not a true fifth Bazaar because it will eventually discard itself (unlike Bazaar).

Riftstone Portal: Again, maybe in an Intuition build, but not here. Might be worth trying with Crop Rotation/Gamble.

The cards to test are: ESG, offcolor moxen, Twister/Wheel, and Petal/Crypt/Diamond. There's also secondary choices like the exact number of incarnations and Gamble/Crop Rotation, but those aren't as deck-shaping as the first list.

From my preliminary testing, the Draw7s do indeed work smoothly with combined with the offcolor Moxen AND Careful Studies.

[Matt The Great]

Okay, Gamble is crap. Well, not crap - but it's not good enough to be in a deck this tight. Sometimes it was a nice way to fetch an Anger or a restricted card, but usually it was just Bazaar fodder.

Here's a decklist I would endorse:

//Land
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
1 Forest

//Artifact Mana
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl

//Card Drawing
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Time Walk

//Threats
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Roar of the Wurm
4 Anger
2 Fiery Temper


It's 59 cards maindeck, so add a Deep Analysis or Roar or Wonder or something. I have my doubts about Windfall, but I guess that could work.

Going to four Anger definitely feels right. It makes up for much of the lost speed.

The moxen are pretty strong. I certainly don't feel the need to even test any other artifact mana (Petal, Crypt, Diamond/Chrome).

Attunement is definitely crap. I always use all my mana, or all but one, on each and every turn up through six or seven. Actually, I haven't had the time (read: mana) to spare to use Attunement even in much longer goldfishes, so that "turn seven" number is just because I shouldn't technically say 'never'. Besides, I'd much rather Oath of Scholars, and I don't want that.

Good sideboard cards are Artifact Mutation, Tormod's Crypt, Chalice of the Void, and miscellaneous madness cards like Wonders, Eruptions, Tempers, Deep Analyses, or the last Roar. If you need extra Dragon hate - and four Crypts is probably not enough - Seal of Removal comes to mind, as it stops both the main combo AND Verdant Force, unlike BEB or something. Also, it doesn't stay stuck in your hand (to be Duressed away, or to interfere with Bazaar). Seal would also be decent in the mirror (Roar tokens) if the mirror actually existed.\n\n