Banned/Restricted ListHey Everyone, Here is the info we ...

[thefram]

Oh man did i plan well. Just in case of restrictions my article for the week was on Budget Ur Scepter, because i knew NOTHING was getting restricted in there (i have a long justification in the article for the absence of chrome mox, and now its restricted, an even better justification).

Aside from the burning wish restriction im cool with this new list. I dont think i wish needed it w/o led, but it doesnt bother me that it is.

I think the point was to bolster control. Lets be honest now, keeper can handle dragon decently well. Long was the deck giving keeper more trouble, not because it was better, but because it got those hand that it just won with. If there are decks in a format that introduce too much randomness into play, even when playing against decks trying to slow the format it makes sense that they should be axed.

However, i'd like to reiterate by opinion that nothing (other than possible chrome mox, and that only on principle) needed to be restricted. I still believe the burden lies on the shoulders of R&D to fix their messes through card creation rather than restriction.

regardless, this is done.

So welcome to new T1.

Dragon
Keeper (chalice or scepter)
MUD/Stax/Stacker
RECTAL AGONY/ RectorTrix - Agony takes control, Trix takes Mud/Stax
Ur/x Scepter
Venguer/Ninja Mask - Without Long these can cut it.
Monoblack Mask - sheer speed = good
Gro/Gat
Hulk

Long being gone makes keeper a little too good, and there is still no true aggro in the format, but thats alot of decks that ppl can play.

-thefram

[mouth]

Chrome Mox is restricted on precedence, which I think we can all live with. LED's drawback is, unbelievably, negligeble enough for it to be considered in the same category.

Spoils is really the fixed tutor. While it shares similarities with Consultation, the auto-lose percentages are wildly different. I can honestly say, that in the past year, in over 100 games, I have only had 2 bad Consults, while in some 40 or so games recently, I've had at least 5 bad Spoils. I don't even really keep track anymore.

In any case, the drawback of Spoils is actually properly weighted, or as close as you can get with 4 of's per deck and a 60 card deck. However, SotV is inherently a combo tutor, namely for Dragon and MaskNaught, and will more than likely not see much play in control, aggro or prison. It is anti-thetical to the often implied stance that combo is to be neutered, for Spoils to remain unrestricted (was that clear?). If anything, they'll restrict Spoils in Type 1 to get it out of Type 1.5.

[EDIT]: Just wanted to say, that, in my opinion, Workshop will likely avoid restriction for a long time. While it can be a turn 2 "win", it also forces player interaction and emphasizes playskill, for both players. Long.dec attempted to minimize those aspects of the game, and was therefore ball-gagged. Maybe a little of an over-simplified view, but that's the gist of it.

[Diddler]

jhaggs:  All I meant by saying

Quote I'm glad the DCI doesn't listen to everyone...

is I'm glad that the DCI doesn't restrict/ban everything (or near everything) that people suggest.  For example, I heard on several occasions that people thought that Dark Ritual shoud be restricted.  I'm happy that the DCI didn't restrict that.  There are other example too, but I hope you know what I mean now

I know Long.dec hasn't been winning all the time, but don't you think there's something inherently wrong with that deck in this game?  A Long.dec player can win first turn even when his opponent has Force of Will or Duress in hand.  That's just wrong...  I don't think its poor tournament results should affect this decision.  I do, however, agree with many people in thinking that maybe they went a little overboard with Long.dec (and collateral damage).

Whether or not Long.dec got axed, I think the Metagame would shift in order to start dealing with Dragon a little better.  Don't you think that people would start to throw in a couple SB cards like Swords to Plowshares or Tormod's Crypt?

Anyhow, the DCI sent the following messages:

1. We don't want to see Long.dec anymore.

2. Dragon is a combo deck that can be dealt with.  We don't need to do anything here.

3. We don't like to unrestrict (i.e. Fork)

4. We don't like to ban cards (i.e. Yawgmoth's Will)

[BreathWeapon]

Ya know, TnT might be playable again now. If Vengeur can make the cut so can TnT, their tempo is reasonably even. The 4 Tangle Wire 4 Chalice of the Void deck with a full set of Strips/Wastes seems perfect for this new environment.

Aggro Workshop 4Life

[cssamerican]

Quote (twn_domn @ Dec. 01 2003,14:53)Perhaps the principle is that artifact mana accel. == bad/evil/unfair while Workshop is a land?

Consistency!
If a non land card that is a mana accelerator must be resticted on principle why is Elvish Spirit Guide not restricted?  You can't Duress it away or counter it, your only recourse is to Stifle it. Granted it is not that great because it produce green mana and hardly anyone uses it, but at the same time I didn't see Chrome Mox in top 8 list either.

I just feel that nothing should be restricted on principle. A deck should have to dominate the meta before a card is restricted. Long was not dominating, look at tournament reports. Chrome Mox was not proven to be broken in any deck. The only combo deck I seen that used it was Neo-Long, and how many tournaments did Neo-Long finish in the top 8? In fact, the closest deck to dominating was Dragon and it went untouched...Just for the record I did not beleive anything needed restriction.

Quote Don't you think that people would start to throw in a couple SB cards like Swords to Plowshares or Tormod's Crypt?

People already were doing that. Dragon is a lot more resilant than what people think, that is why you see so many top 8. If it were that easy to beat a decent Dragon player they would have already been hated out just like the Rector decks were. If my memory serves me right, at Gencon Rector decks got hated out by Tormod's Crypt and Coffin Purge, but a Dragon deck made top 8.

[Diddler]

Quote (cssamerican @ Dec. 01 2003,15:31)

Quote Don't you think that people would start to throw in a couple SB cards like Swords to Plowshares or Tormod's Crypt?

People already were doing that. Dragon is a lot more resilant than what people think, that is why you see so many top 8. If it were that easy to beat a decent Dragon player they would have already been hated out just like the Rector decks were. If my memory serves me right, at Gencon Rector decks got hated out by Tormod's Crypt and Coffin Purge, but a Dragon deck made top 8.

I haven't been exposed to dragon decks enough to know how resiliant they are.  Dragon players, is that the way it really is?  Do you find that you can easily work around Tormod's Crypt or Swords to Plowshares?

[Charlie Yu]

So why you people hate combo (Long) so much? Yes it doesn't have much player interaction but every game is like solving a giant puzzle. What should you get with your Demonic Tutor? The answer could range from Burning Wish to Black Lotus to Chromatic Sphere varying the situation. Plus 4 LEDs and 4 Chrome Moxen make it inconsistant enough already.
On the extended... Now the big 3 are The Rock, Aluren, Tog?

[Tijnie]

They left dragon alone, I think that was the right thing to do. afterall the dragon combo can be stopped relatively easy.
-Graveyard Hate
-Stifle
-Instant dragon destroy  

there are enough cards for every deck to make that possible.. dragon isn't broken, its just very very strong  

[Eddie]

@Charlie Yu: It's only a puzzle for 1 player: the one playing long. If you have nothing in hand to stop it, you might as well concede so you get to the bar 5 minutes faster.

I'm glad with the b&r list. Burning wish was a little shock. But I'm glad as hell yawgmoth's wasn't banned. As more people pointed out, the damage would be extensive. Problem is solved with LED gone (madness lovers will have to move to bazaar, which will make madness decks no longer budget friendly).

I know I'll be cutting a chalice in the SB for a tormod's crypt extra in 2004.

[blue_negator]

I think T1 pulled out of this round of restrictions pretty well.
I was pretty surprised at seeing burning wish restricted but I guess they wanted to be sure to kill long.  LED was the mostly to get restricted so thats not a surprised.  I think with this round of restrictions wizards has shown that they aren't complete idiots when it comes to T1.  They would have been idiots if they restricted - workshop, cunning wish, ritual, or banned yawgwill.

[TimeBeing]

Chrome mox is a little better in a lot of ways then Elvish Spirt Guide.

It counts towards Storm. Can be replayed from your graveyard. Can be used more then once. can be used for any color.

Now i don't think the Mox should have been restricted yet, since no major deck has even used them, and many decks have Mox hate in them. However, I see why they did it. Maybe in March they will take them off the list.

As for burning wish, someone would have rebuilt Long.dec another way and it still would have been good. Anydeck that kills with Storm, fast will be good. Rector, is slower, is eaier to hate vs, and  only realy gets a first turn kill.

[MoreFling]

I think the DCI once again made the right bannings, although Burning Wish is doubtable. LED is really the engine Long.dec thrives on. Having played and tested the deck extensively myself, I can safely say the deck would operate with just 1 burning wish, but cannot with just 1 LED, unless some other mana source is incorporated. I don't think ESG is good enough to be that mana source. Chrome Mox is well... not so great. I think it'll see more play now that it's restricted, since it's actually easier to include in combo-decks like for instance TPS.

Too bad they didn't ban Yawg's Will. I still think they should.

[Ifflejink]

Chrome Mox and Burning Wish didn't need restriction whatsoever, and they simply could have put an errata on Lion's Eye Diamond so you could only play it's ability as a sorcery, because they didn't have to kill madness. They have just killed the format's best budget decks: Long and Madness.

[Moxlotus]

Quote (Ifflejink @ Dec. 01 2003,18:11)Chrome Mox and Burning Wish didn't need restriction whatsoever, and they simply could have put an errata on Lion's Eye Diamond so you could only play it's ability as a sorcery, because they didn't have to kill madness. They have just killed the format's best budget decks: Long and Madness.

Of course it was decks like Long which made budget aggro completely pointless because it killed on turn 2

[xaos]

Quote (Ifflejink @ Dec. 01 2003,19:11)They have just killed the format's best budget decks: Long and Madness.

pardon me if im wrong, but how exactly is long a budget deck?  i understand that you can play an unpowered version, but i was under the assumption that you needed every ounce of broken to make that deck work quick enough to win(read: before they can manage to get their CotV[if they dont just mull agressively] or other long-hate cards), and taking out the power would drop its speed/consistency by at least a few turns, and give uber advantage to the player who knows how to disrupt them, just waiting for the card(s) to topdeck/tutor out.  i felt the evil behind long was the fact that could just outrace you, to the tune of "whered my first turn go?"... am i wrong?

EDIT: Ifflejink, that damn avatar zones my ass in, and doesnt let go... i just unknowingly stared at it "to see where the loop begins/ends" for i-dont-know how long

[Gilberry]

I, for one, am very glad about the new banned/restricted list. Long was way too much of a problem.
 
Unfortunately the enviroment now is somewhat fragile. Chalice, new Mirrodin cards and the new Long.dec restrictions leave many places to be filled. I don't think Mishra's Workshop or Dragon decks alone are going to do it either. Maybe Keeper or Mask will turn out to fill the void (no pun intended) left by Long.dec

[jazzy kat]

Quote (twn_domn @ Dec. 01 2003,14:24)geezz, so..., R&D axe long.dec because Steve's article?    

So..., is everying going for Stacker/WMud now?  Prophets, time to make ur prediction.

Ha ha, I will attempt to write bitchin articles on Dragon and MUD. Then maybe workshop, and dragon will be restricted(then  = Keeper might rule) ...or maybe I'll try to flatter Steve into it

[z28camaro]

I had a hunch that Burning Wish was going to go.  I don't think it deserves it but I thought maybe R&D would think so.  Overall I'm happy with the new list.  Chrome Mox may not have deserved to go but in principle you had to expect it.  Which brings up Spoils of the Vault.  Thought it would go but don't necessarily think it should.  Too bad for Madness.  I wish there would have been a way to neuter Long without Madness getting the shaft.  

Hey be thankfull they didn't take something off the banned/restricted list.  That would have really thrown us for a curve.  

Z

[Razer51]

Quote (Moridar @ Dec. 01 2003,11:06)LED give 3 mana of any color to play any spell or effect.  This allowed a combo deck to run (Long.dec)

Actually, you cant use LED to play a spell thats in your hand.  That can be a big drawback.  LED has been errated to say "Use this ability only when you could play an instant", i.e., not when you are casting a spell.

Sorry guys, just thought Id clear that one up.

C

[Metanoia]

sorry, but you are wrong, I'm sure most people on this site know this but I'd still like to clear it up.

short version:

take a spell from you hand
announce the mode
announce the targets
determine the cost
pay the cost
add it to the stack

long version:

Quote
409. Playing Spells and Activated Abilities

409.1. Playing a spell or activated ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the playing of a spell or ability, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the spell was played illegally; the game returns to the moment before that spell or ability was played (see rule 422, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.

409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated ability. It moves from the zone it’s in to the stack and remains there until it’s countered or resolves. In the case of spells, the physical card goes onto the stack. In the case of activated abilities, the ability goes onto the stack without any card associated with it. Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated with it. Each activated ability that’s on the stack has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. The controller of a spell is the player who played the spell. The controller of an activated ability is the player who played the ability.

409.1b If the spell or ability is modal (uses the phrase “Choose one —” or “[specified player] chooses one —”), the player announces the mode choice. If the spell or ability has a variable mana cost (indicated by {oX}) or some other variable cost, the player announces the value of that variable at this time. If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special costs (such as buyback or kicker costs), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can’t apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a single spell or ability. Previously made choices (such as choosing to play a spell with flashback from his or her graveyard or choosing to play a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s options when making these choices.

409.1c If the spell or ability requires any targets, the player first announces how many targets he or she will choose (if the spell or ability has a variable number of targets), then announces the targets themselves. A spell or ability can’t be played unless the required number of legal targets are chosen. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times.

409.1d If the spell or ability targets one or more targets only if an alternative, additional, or special cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost) is paid for it, or if a particular mode is chosen for it, its controller chooses those targets only if he or she announced the intention to pay that cost or chose that mode. Otherwise, the spell or ability is played as though it did not have those targets.

409.1e If the spell or ability affects several targets in different ways, the player announces how it will affect each target. If the spell or ability requires the player to divide an effect (such as damage or counters) among a number of objects or players, the player announces the division. Each of these objects or players must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.

409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

409.1g The player then has a chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, “Playing Mana Abilities”).

409.1h Once the player has enough mana in his or her mana pool, he or she pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {o3}{oB} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {o1} less to play. Because a spell’s total cost is “locked in” before payments are actually made, you pay {o2}{oB}, not {o3}{oB}, even though you’re sacrificing the Familiar.

409.1i Once the steps described in 409.1a–409.1h are completed, the spell or ability becomes played. Any abilities that trigger on a spell or ability being played or put onto the stack trigger at this time. The spell or ability’s controller gets priority.

409.2. Some spells and abilities specify that their controller’s opponent does something the controller would normally do while it’s being played, such as choose a mode, choose targets, or choose how the spell or ability will affect its targets. In these cases, the opponent does so when the spell or ability’s controller normally would do so. If the spell or ability instructs both players to do something at the same time as it’s being played, the spell’s controller goes first, then his or her opponent. This is an exception to rule 103.4.

409.3. Playing a spell or ability that alters costs won’t do anything to spells and abilities that are already on the stack.

409.4 A player can’t begin to play a spell or activated ability that’s prohibited from being played by an effect.

so you can of course use LED to pay for spells in your hand

EDIT on second thought the oracle text is a bit weird:

Quote
Lion's Eye Diamond

Color= Artifact  Type= Artifact  Cost= 0 MI®  
Text (MI+errata): Sacrifice ~this~, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant. [Oracle 1999/11/01]

The ability is a mana ability, so it is played and resolves as a mana ability, but it can only be played at times when you can play an instant. [bethmo 1999/11/17] Yes, this is a bit weird.
You can discard a hand of zero cards to use this effect. [Duelist Magazine #16, Page 28]

which means you are probably right...

well, I'm confused have we been playing LED illegally all this time?

any thoughts, rules gurus?

[Smmenen]

Obviously you can't use it to pay for a spell that's in your hand.  Do you think LED would have lasted this long if that were the case?

Steve

[Metanoia]

Well I guess, I've been playing it wrong all this time, then.
OOPS!

[Smmenen]

Did you read my articles on long .  You might have noticed that in none of the sample games did I pay for the spell in my hand with LED.  I won't belabor the point - but it's still really good as is.  I mean, being able to use it with Chrome Sphere, any draw 7, after Burning Wish, after any Tutor - seems pretty good .

Steve

[Metanoia]

actually those articles inspired me to play Long in the first place

Well, let's just say I'm glad I only played Long on Apprentice and not in actual tournaments...

and I though it was such an easy deck to play...

[Smmenen]

Good for you

If you have the cards, you still have a month to go .

Steve

[TimeBeing]

Intrestingly they didn't mention a watch list. maybe in friday's article. i would guess Spoils, and Workshop, and Bizarre are on that list at the least.

[skycreatoR]

I remember when i, a budget player, first found out that when you sac the LED, your hand is gone. My wheels and everything else was doomed  But you soon learn to walk around it, and it is an incredibly strong card, that is for sure.

Anything that can give you around 18 mana in the pool, for free, is too good.

My response to the B/R list can go in two ways:

1, the actual restrictions look old. They look created around the end of October instead of late November, which is okay, but it shows that they are a little outdated; i never saw BW to be that good, in any deck, to be honest.

Yawgmoth's Win is the best card in the format, it is inzanely powerfull, but that does not make it worth a ban. It does not disrupt the decks too much, and it can surely be hated out.

2, they did it to create new archetypes. This might sound weird, but every combo player must seek out new paths now. There will probably be created a few new decks, but it somehow also seems that they intended to create new archetypes, so as of Jan the 1. there might be a void that needs to be filled with new types of decks. I will for one go create a deck i had in mind for a long time

[Argopile]

My thoughts:
They were right, much as I detest the weakening of madness, they were right.

LED gave you 3 mana of any color for free.  There are to many cards that can help you get around its other cost.
BW tutored for the Uber-powerful sorceries that you hid from your opponent in your sideboard (ex:yawgwill).
CM is still free mana and was waiting to be broken.  They took preemptive action.

So Kudo's to WotC for not fucking up T1!  (again).

well not totally...

and shit...

[dandan]

Number of LEDS, Burning Wishes and Crome Moxen in old style Academy=0
Number of new toys for Academy=lots

Don't think that just because Long has taken a huge hit, that other decks that decended from Academy are dead too. If anything, the reduced SB hate and numbers of Chalices make these decks stronger.

Havind said that, if you want to play combo Dragon has a far stronger middle and late game against control and is not a lot slower in the early game.

Long may be dead but TPS, NeoAcademy and a slew of new combo decks are not.

[vood]

The restriction of Burning Wish saved Yawgmoth Will from the banned list. That was what was so strong in long, having 4 yawg will in the deck.