TheManaDrain.com
December 17, 2025, 09:14:33 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: Banned/Restricted ListHey Everyone,  Here is the info we ...  (Read 7245 times)
The Master
Guest
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2003, 12:43:17 pm »

why did they not bann bazaar or workshop?
and why do they not restrict scepter and ituition?
Logged
BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2003, 12:54:45 pm »

How exactly do you hate out Yawgmoth's Will? Game 1 its easily the most powerful card in the game. Who can afford to side in GY Hate vs Keeper or Suicide etc just to combat the most broken restricted card EVAR?
Logged
Razvan
Guest
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2003, 12:57:47 pm »

Quote
Quote why did they not bann bazaar or workshop?

Because it would be senseless. Restrict... maybe... Ban? What the hell?

Quote
Quote and why do they not restrict scepter and ituition?

Intuition - Situational tutor. Powerful, yes, but very situational. Even Hulk only used 2.

Scepter - Why?
Logged
mtgmooner
Guest
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2003, 04:23:10 pm »

I think the more pertinent question here would be why werent Bazaar and Workshop restricted.  The DCI likes to say that they ban and restrict cards based on cards and interactions that begin to dominate an environment.  Looking at tournament wins, I have to say there is an awful lot of Stax taking T1 events in Ontario, and when you look at Duliemans and such, roughly 3 of 4 decks in the top 4 are running bazaars.

A precedent that has been set in the game of magic for a very long time is that something that gives more mana that it costs is generally restricted.  So i still curious as to how a card like Workshop which is 3 for a land drop (i know, it can be hated out) can be left untouched.  A deck that can drop first turn chalice for 3 (with acceleration) and second turn for 2 is pretty broken and format defining if you ask me.

As for intuition and scepter...I cant believe that either one would really be restricted for any reason.  Intuition I though they might consider if it became a little too prevalent, but scepter is a mana whore, and I cant see it being played in multiples on a single board during the best of situations.

I am interested in anyones thoughts or comments on the workshop/bazaar situation, and if people agree with me that they appearing VERY frequently in numbers in the upper echelons of tourney results...and possibly if people have theories as to the justifcation for leaving them alone?
Logged
Tripps
Guest
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2003, 07:46:22 pm »

Quote from: Smash+Dec. 01 2003,11:17
Quote (Smash @ Dec. 01 2003,11:17)To anyone who wanted spoils restricted.. give me a freaking break.
It ONLY gets unrestricted cards. Most tutors are broken by getting restricted cards. Add to this the high chance to kill yourself... and it is about the perfectly balanced tutor for B.
I think most people want it restricted for the sake of 1.5. Apparently, PTW's Spoils Dragon is wrecking up on turn two there. Also, it is almost as good as Consultation, so that alone may be merit enough to axe it for t1's sake.
Logged
Shivea
Guest
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2003, 10:33:26 pm »

I think Wizards did a very good job on the explinations and restriction choices.  Much better then usual may I add.  They really opened up deck building to the point of beins able to race a deck that goes off Turn 2-4.  I think that gives us all a lot more options for decks to just flat out play.
Logged
centroles
Guest
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2003, 01:25:33 pm »

I agree, I think they made a great move in neutering long. Banning Will is absurd and wouldn't have killed long at all, just forced it to adapt slightly. I'm not so sure burning wish needed to take the hit as well but they gave a good explanation for it.

I'm surprised that they chose not to unrestrict anything though. There are many many cards that have been restricted over the years, fork and recall come to mind, that are barely playable now. Even the seemingly most powerful cards in the heydey of magic like the rack now pale in comparison to what current decks like workshop and dragon or cards like pyrostatic pillar can do. It's as if once they restrict something, they just forget about it completely. The format is a lot faster than what it was when many of these cards were first restricted.

But I'm particularly surprised at their refusal to either print more efficent artifact hosers or restrict workshop now that artifact decks are getting so abusive across the field, not just in vintage. I mean they took out Ancient Tomb in extended but left Workshop, the permanent black lotus, alone. Especially considering how many decks are rendered inviable due to thier inability to hate out the deck no matter how hard they try...
Quote
Quote Many decks are definately more viable with long now gone. But now more than ever, Workshop variants, Dragon, and to a lesser degree Mask based combo decks will make up a large part of the meta any where where people actually own power and play competitively. And these decks are so synergetic that the only way in which other decks can have a chance with them is by packing their sideboards with the appropriate hate. Thus the only decks that are even remotely viable in a competitive environment are those that pack said hate. This isn't a problem regarding Dragon and Mask as essentially every color has easy to cast cards that significantly hurt both decks. But while Mishra's Workshop unduly shuts out a lot of strategies that just don't have the brokenness to race the locks, through no fault of their own, there really isn't any way to effectively hate it out without a blue or red splash.

Until wizards decides to print artifact hate cards for all the colors or decides to restrict the permenant version of black lotus, the only viable noncombo decks are those that splash a significant amount of either blue or red. While this may not seem apparent, anyone who has played against a good workshop deck can attest to incredible amounts of mana the deck can generate in the first few turns, the raw synegetic power of the cards to be able to totally shut you out by turn two, or the futility of trying to trade with the key cards one for one.

Trading for land one for one with cards such as Wasteland or Sinkhole rarely works as there are far too many mana accelerators to be dealt with effectively, and by the time the mana denial can actually hit play, Workshop variants often had already had the key turn one or two needed to lock you out. Trading one for one with threats or by utilizing discard is often just as futile as no deck could match it's hate with the number of threats found in the deck. Current artifact based artifact hosers such as Null Rod and Chalice of the Void deal with far too few threats, and almost always deal with them too late and very poorly at that. Graveyard hard proves just as difficult as the graveyard is typically only a very minor component of the combo. The original MUD builds did very well and never once bothered to utilize their graveyards.

Even after combining all these forms of hate to make up a third of the main deck and almost all of the sideboard, the incredible challenge that decks like Chalice Black face against workshop based decks proves unconditionally just how futile the above measures are. Currently, the only cards with which workshop variants can truly be crippled and hated out are cards that can deal with multiple key artifact threats at once. These consist of Energy Flux, Artifact Mutation, and Rack and Ruin. Hurkyll's Recall and Blood Moon are also effective provided you only need to stall them temporarily. These and only these cards deal with enough threats at once to have any chance to make up for the raw synergy and power found in Workshop variants. And considering that all five cards require a red or blue splash, it becomes quite apparent why so many decks and archetypes are made unplayable by the unresticted presence of Workshop variants. And it also becomes apparent why workshop decks consistently manage to take 4 or 5 slots on almost every top 8 list even while being such a new deck, even with long around and with workshops being so rare. Four copies of a permanent black lotus is afterall no small advantage.

So if the DCI remains firm on it's refusal to restrict Mishra's Workshop, Wizards should at the very least ensure that cheap and effective artifact hate is made accessible to all the colors in the next set whether in the form of individual cards or with more effective artifact based artifact hosers. Afterall, it's not just vintage that's being deformed by artifact decks, extended suffers from the same problem and I predict standard will soon as well.
Logged
Toad
Crazy Frenchman
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2152


112347045 yoshipd@hotmail.com toadtmd
View Profile
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2003, 05:39:14 am »

Quote from: centroles+Dec. 03 2003,19:25
Quote (centroles @ Dec. 03 2003,19:25)But I'm particularly surprised at their refusal to either print more efficent artifact hosers or restrict workshop now that artifact decks are getting so abusive across the field, not just in vintage. I mean they took out Ancient Tomb in extended but left Workshop, the permanent black lotus, alone. Especially considering how many decks are rendered inviable due to thier inability to hate out the deck no matter how hard they try...


Hint : (non exhaustive list)
Red has Shattering Pulse, Gorilla Shaman, Pulverize, Shatter, Rack and Ruin, Viashino Heretic.
Green has Naturalize, Uktabi Oran Utan, Viridian Shaman.
White has Disenchant, Serenity, Dust to Dust, Abolish.
Blue has Energy Flux, Hurkyll's Recall.
Black is Black, each colour has its weakness.
Artifacts give you Null Rod, Powder Keg, Nevynniral's Disk.

Artifacts are the easiest cards to hate out in Type One you know ? You have more playable artifact removal than creature removal.

Could you tell us which decks are rendered inviable by Workshop decks ? I can't really think of one :\
Logged
Fungal Bloom
Guest
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2003, 02:21:43 pm »

I far as workshop goes I do think that it should be restricted. But, I also think that it does not because the much hate their is out there for artifacts.  Every color has its own way of making artifacts helpless. The only cards you ever have the most troble with, are welder and smokestack. So why not restrict Smokestack.  
Logged
blue_negator
Guest
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2003, 02:34:55 pm »

Sometimes I really wonder how much experience people who say restrict workshop have against these "prison decks."  Prison decks are strong but not unstoppable, each variant of these prison deck has some type of shortcoming that keeps it in the good but not broken category.  Do these people want workshop restricted because they really think it's too powerful or do they want it restricted because they are losing to it with a sub optimal deck or poor playing skills?  Prison decks will always be annoying (opposition, stasis) but they don't warrant restriction because cards are restricted because they degenerate the format not because people don't like playing against them.  And just like Toad said, there are so many artifact hate spells out there that it's not impossible to break out of the lock.  Most of those spells are instants too so even if they go first turn tangle wire or second turn smokestacks you can still cast your artifact hate spell turn 1 or 2 without taking too much collateral damage
Logged
centroles
Guest
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2003, 02:38:16 pm »

any variant of suicide black/chalice black for one example but pretty much any noncombo decks that doesn't splash red or blue are. did you read the whole quote. I mentioned many of those cards and explained why the ones not mentioned for red or blue are all ineffective. with a deck as synergic as workshop, even when you dedicate a significant portion of your sideboard and maindeck to dealing with artifacts, unless the artifact hate can take out multiple artifacts at once, it won't slow down workshop much at all.

this is why wokrshop decks consistently manage to take 4 or 5 slots on almost every top 8 list even with long around and with workshops being so rare.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.036 seconds with 19 queries.