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Author Topic: with the new restrictions, all my budget lists on here ar...  (Read 2214 times)
centroles
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« on: December 01, 2003, 02:31:27 pm »

with the new restrictions, all my budget lists on here are going to need to be tweaked. so i want to discuss what changes the other decks are going to have to make now.

here are my predictions...

a.) with long gone, blood moon is fast enough for vintage again as it hurts both dragon and workshop (the current kings of vintage now) if it comes into play early enough.

b.) chalice officially gets the boot from most hate decks to be replaced by null rod? pity, i used to love the card, now I hate it as it's less playable in budget but still squeezes out a bunch of random budget decks.

c.) fish is better than ever mainly because madness is now dead as well, but also because it can afford to replace some long hate (maybe misdirection, stifles etc) with graveyard hate (against workshop and dragon).

d.) chalice black isn't as viable anymore since neither dragon, nor workshop were great matches for it, and those two decks are going to see a lot more play. but then again, it wasn't that great against long either, so i don't know. but i do know it'll evolve into bloody black and be stronger than ever with four bloodmoon on the side and enough disruption to see to it that bloodmoon hits play before the opponent has a smokestax out.

e.) not sure how keeper and parfait are affected by this. keeper may also be hurt for the same reason as chalice black and from the loss of burning wish (many versions loved that card). but parfait might be a different story. and i'm almost certian hulk is a lot better now.

f.) gobbo combo is more viable now since it's main weaknesses were that it could at the earliest combo out on turn two but had no disruption to stop a turn one, or turn two long combo.

g.) rector trix and tendrils is back baby with long now long gone and the metagame a little bit slower. but it will have to make up for the loss of burning wish.

Many decks are definately more viable with long now gone. But now more than ever, Workshop variants, Dragon, and to a lesser degree Mask based combo decks will make up a large part of the meta any where where people actually own power and play competitively. And these decks are so synergetic that the only way in which other decks can have a chance with them is by packing their sideboards with the appropriate hate. Thus the only decks that are even remotely viable in a competitive environment are those that pack said hate. This isn't a problem regarding Dragon and Mask as essentially every color has easy to cast cards that significantly hurt both decks. But while Mishra's Workshop unduly shuts out a lot of strategies that just don't have the brokenness to race the locks, through no fault of their own, there really isn't any way to effectively hate it out without a blue or red splash.

Until wizards decides to print artifact hate cards for all the colors or decides to restrict the permenant version of black lotus, the only viable noncombo decks are those that splash a significant amount of either blue or red. While this may not seem apparent, anyone who has played against a good workshop deck can attest to incredible amounts of mana the deck can generate in the first few turns, the raw synegetic power of the cards to be able to totally shut you out by turn two, or the futility of trying to trade with the key cards one for one.

Trading for land one for one with cards such as Wasteland or Sinkhole rarely works as there are far too many mana accelerators to be dealt with effectively, and by the time the mana denial can actually hit play, Workshop variants often had already had the key turn one or two needed to lock you out. Trading one for one with threats or by utilizing discard is often just as futile as no deck could match it's hate with the number of threats found in the deck. Current artifact based artifact hosers such as Null Rod and Chalice of the Void deal with far too few threats, and almost always deal with them too late and very poorly at that. Graveyard hard proves just as difficult as the graveyard is typically only a very minor component of the combo. The original MUD builds did very well and never once bothered to utilize their graveyards.

Even after combining all these forms of hate to make up a third of the main deck and almost all of the sideboard, the incredible challenge that decks like Chalice Black face against workshop based decks proves unconditionally just how futile the above measures are. Currently, the only cards with which workshop variants can truly be crippled and hated out are cards that can deal with multiple key artifact threats at once. These consist of Energy Flux, Artifact Mutation, and Rack and Ruin. Hurkyll's Recall and Blood Moon are also effective provided you only need to stall them temporarily. These and only these cards deal with enough threats at once to have any chance to make up for the raw synergy and power found in Workshop variants. And considering that all five cards require a red or blue splash, it becomes quite apparent why so many decks and archetypes are made unplayable by the unresticted presence of Workshop variants. And it also becomes apparent why workshop decks consistently manage to take 4 or 5 slots on almost every top 8 list even while being such a new deck, even with long around and with workshops being so rare. Four copies of a permanent black lotus is afterall no small advantage.

So if the DCI remains firm on it's refusal to restrict Mishra's Workshop, Wizards should at the very least ensure that cheap and effective artifact hate is made accessible to all the colors in the next set whether in the form of individual cards or with more effective artifact based artifact hosers. Afterall, it's not just vintage that's being deformed by artifact decks, extended suffers from the same problem and I predict standard will soon as well.
i still don't get why they took out one broken tempo breaker (lion's eye) but left the even stronger one (workshop). and i also don't see why they hurt dragon last time when it was weaker, but chose to left it alone when it stronger than ever now and downright evil in 1.5. i'm not convinced chrome mox or burning wish needed to be on the list, they really wouldn't see that much play in the current environment. i also didn't want spoils on the list since i though dragon, the only deck that i think can really abuse the card to destroy 1.5 was going to get neutered. but now, i'm not so sure.

what metagame shifts do you think i missed?
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2003, 02:57:11 pm »

Bloodmoon will come back with a vengeance. Isochron Scepter based control will replace Chalice Keeper as "The Control Deck." U/R or U/R/W Phidless style decks will rock the format.

I bet you 5$ that some one will break Death Wish/Yawg Win in a new combo deck. Restricting Burnish Wish wont do a damn thing, lol.

Why would they restrict Workshop and not restrict Manadrain? I think people are tired of Blue spells ruling the format, thats why.
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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2003, 03:00:09 pm »

Omg, Blood Moon is soooo good right now.

If they restricted Workshop and Bazaar, they would have to restrict Mana Drain.

Steve
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GoogleBoots
Guest
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2003, 03:02:22 pm »

You worry WAY too much. This is a pointless thread, because MUD decks and the like, much like many other decks, don't own the format. I will agree in full that MUD is a very good deck and deserves credit for that. It doesn't win every single tournament, however, and it doesn't win every single game. It doesn't have one bad match, which it faces in T8 and loses. It's good all around, but it's not to be feared as you do. The same went for Long. It made few T8 appearances, but was hated so much that it just couldn't survive. There was no shift in the meta, because after Steve wrote those articles(which I loved, BTW), people hated it out, so it basically couldn't be played. There is no problem with having a good deck, but LED allowed Madness to have INSANE turn 1s and allowed Long to win more often on turn 1. Workshop doesn't break the game, it just aids a deck in the direction in which it needs to go.

The newly restricted cards don't make any deck better than before, it just makes 1-2 decks either evolve or drop from the format. No decks will 'come back' because they were never gone in the first place, people just adjusted to times. If Rector Trix stopped winning, you don't have to blame it on the fact that there was a faster combo deck. Dragon is easily the best combo *right now*(even pre-restriction) because it can stop Long from going off(not often game 1, but more-so 2 and 3) and it itself is a combo deck that is very versitile in its ways. It doesn't need momentum to win, it just needs a dude in the 'yard and the animate effect.

PS You need to limit yourself on the number of threads/posts you make in one day. It's ridiculous.
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Traveler
Guest
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2003, 03:12:08 pm »

For decks that don't really want to run blood moon like tog or keeper, is city in a bottle useful now?  With madness and dragon around, I was beginning to think it could be useful.  However, with LED restricted, madness might go away.  There is better hate for dragon than a city in a bottle.
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2003, 03:32:16 pm »

The thing about Dragon and Workshop decks is that they are both easily hated on. In the absence of Long.dec, there is going to be even MORE HATE than ever before for these two decks. Who isn't packing Artifact and Grave Yard Hate in their SB now? Bloodmoon is going to OWN this format in the near future. The funny thing is, Rector and Mask decks will take collateral damage from Dragon and Workshop hate ... so even tho' the tempo for the environment is back on track, these decks are going to see an uphill battle.

Combo players are going to go back into their caves and cook something new and dimented up. All is well from where I am sitting. Its time to ownz people with Isochron Scepter and Blood Moon 4Life.

I think that the new triumverate  for this format will be, Bazaar, Workshop and Manadrain. We are back to paper scissors rock until a new Academy deck shows up.
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cssamerican
Guest
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2003, 03:38:51 pm »

1.) While Bloodmoon is possibly fast enough now it does not hurt Workshop decks like wMud. Hell, at one time they ran it themselves.
2.) Chalice will still be used by Keeper, Mono-Black, and Workshop decks. That means the only viable deck that would use Null Rods is what, Fish?
3.) I can't figure out why you think Hulk will be better now, there will still be a lot of deck packing Chalice so Hulk position in the metagame hasn't really changed.
4.) If anything Parfait got hurt by the restriction of Chrome Mox, not that it was great before.
5.) Rectal Agony is strictly weaker than Dragon and is hurt by the same hate, so it will not see play.

Quote
Quote I bet you 5$ that some one will break Death Wish/Yawg Win in a new combo deck. Restricting Burnish Wish wont do a damn thing, lol.
I already tried the Death Wish route before the restictions with 4 LED and it was not as good as the original. I thought it would be better since it was on color with Dark Ritual and able to fetch instants to handle hate, but after testing it was strictly inferior. So with confidence I can say that without LED a Death Wish Long deck would not have much sting.
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centroles
Guest
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2003, 04:36:40 pm »

good points css, i agree with much of what you said.

scratch what i originally said. with blood moon getting more popular, this will hurt fish a good bit too. the r/u fish decks only run like 2 basic lands. and mono blue fish isn't nearly as strong agains workshop, a major force in the new meta.

and perhaps i'ver underestimated chalice black. it does after all pack 5 wasteland and 4 sinkholes (with lots of ways to play it turn one) to deal with both bazzar and workshop. sure it still absolutely sucks against workshop based decks, but it can dedicate it's entire sideboard to that matchup.

does black have ANY good sideboard cards against workshop. will null rod and tormod's crypt be enough? or is a minor red splash (still playing 8 or so swamp) be neccesisitated. could black even support a splash without having to lose the shades, sinkholes, and hymns.
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centroles
Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2003, 06:07:35 pm »

so is fish still the best budget deck?
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centroles
Guest
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2003, 03:02:35 pm »

f.) b/u trix utilizing spoils of the vault will become the best budget combo deck and one of the best combo decks in the meta.

g.) with long dead, budget decks (excluding long and madness) will be more viable than ever before opting to replace restricted copies of chrome mox with the likes of elvish spirit guide, mox diamond, lotus petal and land.

h.) carrion beetles will run rampant in sideboards across decks that splash black everywhere due to their usefulness against both Workshop and Dragon.
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Eastman
Guest
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2003, 03:06:26 pm »

Quote from: Smmenen+Dec. 01 2003,15:00
Quote (Smmenen @ Dec. 01 2003,15:00)Omg, Blood Moon is soooo good right now.

If they restricted Workshop and Bazaar, they would have to restrict Mana Drain.

Steve
righto.



Centroles, keeper isn't hurt so much by losing burning wish (Shining hasn't been good for a long time..) but by losing one of it's best matchups. While still among the strongest choices because of it's ability to deal with Dragons, Dreadnoughts, AND other control decks, it's going to need to be adapted to the new meta (as it always is when there is a shift) .
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jazzy kat
Guest
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2003, 04:08:24 pm »

I love it, I think I might see budget decks having a chance at Top 8. Less chalice = more budget (if you aren't a dumbass and metagame right and playtest). I think the format will be more accessible now (that way more people can play competively). Maybe I am wrong, about accessibility but I sure hope not.
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centroles
Guest
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2003, 02:53:29 pm »

I'm not sure but I would bet that Fish is the best budget bet in the new meta. With both Madness and Long gone, the deck has much better matchups and can focus most of it's hate on Dragon/Workshop decks.
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2003, 02:59:47 pm »

B/R Suicide is will undoubtably be a house with MD Bloodmoon, Null Rod and Withered Wretch. Even budget U/r Scepter is tempting.
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blue_negator
Guest
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2003, 03:09:16 pm »

It's all an eventual shift anyways.  Just in nature the balance will shift one way and then another and then eventually it will work itself out.  Hell, even without the restrictions long wasn't getting much action anyways now with the restrictions it will be written off to that big magic graveyard in the sky.  :Rant: This is the inherent problem of combo in the first place it's so damn broken that it screws over everybody else but yet it doesn't have enough staying power to withstand hate or a big metagame shift.  Eventually it gets hated out or restricted out of the metagame never to be seen again. :end rant:

Personally with long.dec gone control decks will move in to fill the spot, then once control decks start dominating aggro decks will come in to beat up on the control decks, then once the meta is filled with aggro,  combo will comeback and give aggro a spanking.  It's an inevitable cycle, which imo is good because it keeps the metagame fresh.  It makes people work for their wins by building and testing the right decks.  I'm a staunch supporter of the "mainstreaming" of T1.  In the old days it would be the same friggin deck on top for the longest time.  From the short period right before GAT came out to now the meta has shifted and adjusted more times then T1 ever did since it's inception till just pre GAT.  More change and new decks brings in new players.
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Razvan
Guest
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2003, 03:11:19 pm »

I doubt that the death of Long will have a large impact. It was fast, it was brutal, it was sick, it might have been somewhat consistent... but it required "mad skillz" and a lot of luck.

It didn't dominate. No deck will dominate. Not in Type 1. There might be Tiers, in which certain decks will shine, and some won't... but you will not see the extended dilemma of 7/Top8 playing 4 Tinkers in their deck, alongside the Goblin Charbelcher.

One more thing: I am not sure who said that the Elvish Spirit Guide can replace Lion's Eye Diamond... but I think they are wrong.

LED gives 3 mana of any color, not 1 colorless like ESG (I know, green, still colorless in this deck). It can be re-used with Yawgmoth's Will (the big plus), AND it counts towards the final Storm count. ESG does none of those.

Hell, Chromatic Sphere gives you one card in addition to the any color mana (for only 2 mana), and it increases the Storm count.

ESG is a poor substitute.

MD Blood Moon, eh? Odd...
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