Well, there have been a lot of Keeper discussions floatin...

[Jakedasnake]

Okay, I've been doing some heavy testing, and once again I've used some semi-radical ideas for my version of Keeper.

Here goes:

Mana Sources:
7 SoloMoxen
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Control Aspects/Removal/Denial
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Mana Drain
3 Force of Will*

Draw/Search
1 Future Sight*
2 Skeletal Scrying
3 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Burning Wish*
1 Ancestral Recall

Other
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

Win
2 Decree of Justice

Sideboard:
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Disenchant
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice
1 Chainer's Edict*
1 Chalice of the Void
1 The Abyss
1 Force of Will*
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Library of Alexandria


First off, you're probably thinking 'WTF?' What's going on? Let me explain some of the choices.

3 Force of Will, one on the sideboard. I talked about this a little bit previously, basically how I had seen this on Morphling.de
I really have found that having a Force of Will sideboard to wish for is just AWESOME. Having 5 Force of Will (2 Cunning Wish) allows me to have an extra utility spot maindeck. With extremely fast combo (Long.dec) being hated out by Chalice (well, not completely hated out, but to the point were the deck just can't fight out of the hate) the main combo deck becomes Dragon. Dragon is a great deck, but it's a slower combo deck; it sets up its combo over a couple of turns. One effect of having a Force of Will is the eot ability of searching for a Force for the counter war coming up. When being duressed by a Dragon player, their priority is; stuff that fucks over the combo (i.e. Swords to Plowshares, Stifle, etc.) followed by ways to stop the combo (Mana Drain, Force of Will), followed by ways that can eventually fuck up the combo if enough mana isn't available to go Cunning Wish-->Fuck combo (Cunning Wish). Especially when playing slow combo like Dragon, having a Force of Will on the side is just more versatile. Surving into Mana Drain range is huge, and against Dragon this is pretty easy. At this point, Mana Drain is a more effective counter.

Especially with Chalice of the Void, which allows me to either drop it for 0 or 1 almost every time I draw it, being able to reach 3 mana to use Cunning Wish becomes even easier. It should be noted that Chalice for 0 is HUGE against Dragon. The combo is slowed down greatly; they can't Intuition as fast, can't compulsion as effectively. Basically they lose what acceleration they had, allowing the Keeper player to set up a defense for the coming combo.

Against other decks, Cunning Wish--> Force of Will is almost as effective. Chalice slows the game down to the point where reaching land drops 3-4 isn't much of a problem. During these times, this tech really shines.

Of course, against any decks that you side Cunning Wish out, you side the fourth Force of Will back in.

1 Future Sight. I dropped this in my previous build, but I really believe that having a later game bomb that allows me to seal the deal is just important. Whenever a Future Sight can effectively resolve, the game is basically over. Also, with Chalice, it becomes even easier for the game to reach this point.

1 Burning Wish: I'm currently testing this out. The thought is that I need to be able to work around a Chalice for 1 or 3 (that's why I choose Chainer's Edict over any other substitute) better. However, Burning Wish isn't used like it is in Long.dec or Combo Keeper. It's used mostly to fetch a Chainer's Edict, or more commonly re-use a Yawgmoth's Will. It is NOT used as a win condition or versatility card. That's why there is only one target on the sideboard for it; I don't want to be Wishing for answers.

I know I argued against this previously, but what I was really arguing against was slowing the deck down by increasing the decks dependency on Wishes for answers. Burning Wish really allows me to get some crazy stuff going on. In fact, it also works well when I want to use some non-instant card that I removed with Will (like Time Walk, Demonic Tutor, Balance)

I also removed the Read the Runes. It has become really important to remove offending Moxes, and Gorilla Shaman is just more versatile.

Please let me know what you think, I know that these choices are controversial, but some testing has gone into them.

[Abbadon Khaine]

Jakedasnake:

Has having Force of Will in the sideboard slowed the deck any for you? I ask because three cards and three mana to counter one spell feels like a bad tradeoff, not to mention that only having two Cunning Wishes in the deck, and tying one to FoW, seems to be stretching their utility kind of thin.

Have you found any indication of negative synergy between Future Sight and Chalice of the Void?

Is using Burning Wish to recycle Will/Balance really paying off?

If it isn't, couldn't Chainer's Edict simply be replaced by Diabolic Edict, and thus avoid the use of B. Wish AND free a space maindeck?

Finally, have you tested Stifle either in the maindeck or sideboard?

[Ultima]

I really have to disagree with the FOW in the side.  I understand the idea, but like Khaine was saying, 3 mana and three cards for 1 FOW when you could just be holding it, is too much and too risky.  Dropping to 3 FOW when the format is this fast just doesn't seem to hold water despite chalice.  Honestly, it probably has more merit to just put in another removal spell and good utility card in the side like Blue Blast.  Also, in point to fact, Dragon is not very slow but 1 turn slower than Long most if the time and its speed is saced to stability making it an amazing deck right now. I will concede that chalice for 0 does do a number, however that does mean that dragon is helpless and can still go off on turn 3 with a bazaar with FOW backup.

I don't really understand your worry about Dragon as it is because Keeper has a good match against Dragon anyway.  Additionally, i not sold on the side strategy either.  Going to 2 REB seems very illogical in a meta where Keeper is hot again unless near you there are aren't any or none to worry about.  Chainer's is still too slow and despite the flashback because these days most decks just need 1 turn for their creatures to do the job unless its aggro in which the chainer's will not hold out anyway.  The 1 burning wish seems inconsistent and i have yet to see a time when will is needed again after use unless you lost it to duress or something and you scryed it out. I can understand the need for replaying balance but it hardly seems likely that you will be able to consistently get it in the RFG pile for the lone wish fetch.

I think that cutting a draw spell for more utility is a bad idea since control is becoming more and more popular next to combo.  At least RtR was a draw spell, albeit not a good one IMO.

I do agree on future sight and have never agreed with its cut.  Its too gamebreaking and the single-best card drawing card in T1 next to Recall.

[Jakedasnake]

@Ultima: In fact, one of the main reasons that I chose to have a Force of Will on the side was because of the Keeper on Keeper matchups that will will start happening. Really, Keeper isn't an explosive deck, so having an early counter against them isn't huge.

Plus, the recurring Yawgmoth's Will is a big plus, having two chances to gain a large advantage has worked pretty well so far.

I've definitely been wanting to go up to 3-4 ReB, but I really haven't done much work on the sideboard as of yet. Also, I didn't cut a draw spell for the Burning Wish.

I will obviously need to do more testing with Burning Wish, but so far it has been excellent. Who knows, maybe my mising skills are excellent?

About Future Sight/Chalice: Not really, because any card that gets flipped over by Future Sight that can't be played is a card that when drawn would have had the same effect. Having a Future Sight allows me to play through the spells I can use quicker.

I've been testing Stifle, and I really like the mana denial aspect. However, having them maindeck just doesn't seem optimal considering the many decks they are useless against, and I STILL need to work on the sideboard (a lot, i know).

[Loci]

JakedaSnake,

I have been experimenting with Burning Wish also. My opinion is that if you want to run it side by side Cunning Wish you'd  run;

One: Which doesn't give you much of an edge and your sideboard does not leave you much room for cards to Burning Wish for and in the end it is better to free up slots and run the wishable targets maindeck. A second run on Yawgmoth's Will is very tempting but unfortunately you have most likely already used up the really big targets (Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, BLack Lotus) the first run and it is probably a win more situation anyway. Bringing Burning Wish along just for that game in which you needed a panic Yagmoth's Will to get you out of a nasty situation is not a big enough reason in my opinion.
Two: Things get very interesting since you are than able to sideboard Yawgmoth's Will, Balance and perhaps even Mind's Desire. Unfortunately my findings are that to make this work properly you would have to drop a color which is simply not an option.
Three: The sideboard just cannot support both Cunning and Burning Wish in these amounts.

So in the end I abonded the idea completely

If you have more luck or found something that I missed(Which is not unlikely at all) than please mention it.

[Toad]

Quote (Jakedasnake @ Nov. 24 2003,05:03)@Ultima: In fact, one of the main reasons that I chose to have a Force of Will on the side was because of the Keeper on Keeper matchups that will will start happening. Really, Keeper isn't an explosive deck, so having an early counter against them isn't huge.

Force of Will is the card that allows Keeper to stop Combo. By running only 3, you weakens your matchup against Long and Dragon. It also weakens your matchup against Welder MUD. FOW is important in Keeper mirrors. You'll need FOWs to counter an early Ancestral. Same in the Hulk matchup. You need 4 FOW, it is simply a no brainer.

Quote Plus, the recurring Yawgmoth's Will is a big plus, having two chances to gain a large advantage has worked pretty well so far.

So, what you are saying is that you need a second Yawgmoth's Will to win after the first one ? Yawgmoth's Will IS Keeper's real win condition. A big Will is always game, you don't need a second one. What broken cards will be in your graveyard after a first Yawgmoth's Will ? No Ancestral, less tutors and Brainstorms, etc... In your build, Burning Wish is just a 4cc Chainer's Edict.

[Jakedasnake]

Good thoughts and ideas. Of course, this was just speculation, I hadn't done much testing. I will do some more testing, and I'll let you know what the results are, but as of now I'll figure it out for myself.

[Shock Wave]

I'm no Keeper guru, but I will say that running any less than 4 FOW in Keeper is absolute insanity. I would recommend abandoning that idea now and saving your time for more reasonable testing pursuits.

Quote In your build, Burning Wish is just a 4cc Chainer's Edict.

Ummm... yeah. What's up with the lone Burning Wish and the 1 Chainer's Edict in the SB? Otherwise, it looks like a reasonable Keeper build.

[Ultima]

Actually, refering to the fact that there is no FOF in your build thus leading to the conclusion that your running 1 less draw spell than most.

[Ged]

Expecting more Keeper on Keeper matchups, why did you cut LOA from MD?

[Jakedasnake]

@Ultima: I haven't run FoF for some time. The card is excellent, but I haven't had the room. Most likely it will come back. But, it went like this: Future Sight>FoF

About Force: It's back in. During 20 test games, I really wish the Burning Wish was a Force twice, which is just too many times. It's back in.

LoA is excellent, and I'm currently testing it in the board. Against opposing Keeper, it's excellent if it can stay on the board for a couple of turns, and that's enough reason to have it in. But against Dragon, Long.dec, wMUD, and most fast aggro it just won't work unless I draw it very early and am able to keep it active. It really shines against Keeper, so I have it on the side.

[jpmeyer]

FoF is a Skeletal Scrying that's in-color, doesn't cost life, and allows your opponent to misplay and give you splits that are highly in your favor.

[Jakedasnake]

Of course, a good opponent will never give you an excellent split. I agree, however, that it's an excellent card.

[Toad]

Quote (Jakedasnake @ Nov. 25 2003,07:10)Of course, a good opponent will never give you an excellent split. I agree, however, that it's an excellent card.

Considering the fact that your opponent doesn't know what you have in hand, even the best player ever can't give you the perfect split. There are just some common rules the good opponent will respect (such as splitting Mana Drain and X-spells), but you have an edge on him because you will make the final choice.

FOF is strictly better than Future Sight. FOF has instant speed (EOTFOF4L), a better synergy with Mana Drain and will give you cards now. It's one of the best draw engine ever printed in Magic.

[LemanRuss]

Quote FOW is important in Keeper mirrors. You'll need FOWs to counter an early Ancestral. Same in the Hulk matchup. You need 4 FOW, it is simply a no brainer.

  Seems to me that Countering an early ancestral recall in mirrors is a mistake, especially with a deck like Keeper, since you will lose much more counters to do like this than to let the Ancestral recall resolve, in average.

[Jakedasnake]

@Toad: I strictly disagree. Fact or Fiction is an EXCELLENT card, but it doesn't do what Future Sight does automatically; win games. A good opponent will make a good decision, so even though you make the decision, it won't be as effective as the culmutive advantage that a Future Sight on the table for 2-3 turns will do. It's just not a comparison.

BtW, thought I should bring this up. If Will is banned, does green come back for Regrowth and Fastbon/Future Sight? My thought being that this would create a semi-engine that could replace a lost Yawgmoth's Will.

Thoughts?

P.S. LemanRuss, I really couldn't understand what you were saying.

[shadowspawn]

Quote BtW, thought I should bring this up. If Will is banned, does green come back for Regrowth and Fastbon/Future Sight? My thought being that this would create a semi-engine that could replace a lost Yawgmoth's Will.

Jake, if Yawg Will does get the boot, then Mud might reign supreme. Although a build with green, i.e a 5 color build would look alot like mine, I posted an article about this a while back, And I'm too lazy to find it, Sorry. To answer for LemanRuss he was trying to say that running a 3 FoW is very bad. Your build looks quite extreme IMO. And a few things should be addressed.

Your Counter Base should look something like this
x4 FoW
x4 Mana drain
**x2 Stifle/CotV**

**:  this is something Zherbus was talking about on IRC, addressing the rise of Dragon and how good stifle is. On the other hand, Chalice is still quite strong but I'll get around to why It should/shouldnt be included later.

Your draw/search:
Ancestral
FoF
x4 Brainstorm
x2 Impulse
x1 Read The Runes**
x1/2 Skeletal Scrying**
Demonic Tutor
Mystical tutor*

*: This could be used in the sb, much like vamp tutor.
**:you could run 1 read the runes with 1 scrying but I don't suggest this, it's your choice in the end.

Silver Bullets should be like this
x2 fire/ice
x1 swords
x2 Rack and ruin/CotV**
x2 Gorilla shaman
x1 balance

**:This is another thing that Zherbus was talking about on IRC. The scenario consisted of cutting chalices from keeper entirely and adding 2 RaR, and 2 Stifle , while cutting 3 chalices and 1 other card.

The kill:
x2 DoJ*
x1 Will

*: I personally think DoJ is very strong right now, because of the amount of fish that is showing up and also the amount of control, especially those with drain on scepter. However if Mud's popularity keeps rising Trenches could see some play.

The sideboard I wont list because I don't know your meta and the choices that you have for the maindeck

EDIT:I took the time to search for my decklist, here it is;

Keeper-Post-Mirrodin
// Lands
       1 Island
       2 Flooded Strand
       3 Polluted Delta
       3 Tropical Island
       2 Tundra
       2 Underground Sea
       3 Volcanic Island
       1 Tolarian Academy
// Creatures
       2 Gorilla Shaman
// Enchantments
       1 Fastbond
       1 Future Sight
       1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
       1 Ancestral Recall
       3 Brainstorm
       3 Cunning Wish
       2 Fire/Ice
       1 Gush
       4 Force of Will
       4 Mana Drain
       1 Balance
       2 Decree of Justice
       1 Demonic Tutor
       1 Mind Twist
       1 Regrowth
       1 Time Walk
       1 Timetwister
       2 Impulse
// Artifacts
       2 Chalice of the Void
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Zuran Orb
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Sapphire
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Artifact Mutation
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Lim-Dul's Vault
SB:  1 Naturalize
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Rack And Ruin

[Comrade Seraph]

@ shadowspawn - Gush MD? Why?

[shadowspawn]

Quote Gush MD? Why?

Fastbond makes it good. And to note, it saves your ass versus wastelands.

[Matt The Great]

Try and stay on topic - if you want to discuss shadowspawn's deck (convienently linked here for you), do it in his thread. It's hugely different from anything being discussed in here.\n\n

[Jakedasnake]

IF Yawgmoth's Will is banned, I'm definitely not going to make Green a large part of the build. The cards that would go in: Fastbond, Sylvan Library, and Regrowth. There is no need for anything else (except Deed maybe, which I've been thinking about).

I agree, let's stay on topic.

[shadowspawn]

I agree staying on topic is a good thing, but considering he asked a question which I knew a good deal about, I felt obliged to answer it.

On another note, why hasn't anyone commented on the RaR or stifle MD idea? I personally would really like to know what are your thoughts.

[BaronSengir]

Quote (Jakedasnake @ Nov. 26 2003,01:41)IF Yawgmoth's Will is banned, I'm definitely not going to make Green a large part of the build. The cards that would go in: Fastbond, Sylvan Library, and Regrowth. There is no need for anything else (except Deed maybe, which I've been thinking about).

Excuse me for missing something if I did, but what are you smoking? They will never ban cards in T1, only restrict. Only banned cards are illegal cards, which are the ante. Also, Grn, albeit providing only 3 utility cards, the 3 cards makes grn workwhile. Sylvan, at its worse, allows you to dig deeper and take a peak into what your gonna look at for the next two turns.

If you want more grn intensive, maybe try... reclaim? its a "vampiric" regrowth

[Ultima]

Its unlikely that Will is gonna get banned.  

As far as green in Keeper, I disagree with.  I weakens the manabase more and doesn't give anything that Keeper doesn't already have.

I still don't think that stifle is worth a MD slot in Keeper because it has all the tools to take Dragon as it is.  Additionally, I still have faith in Chalice and run 2 MD.  MD RaR i have thought about but really don't think its worth it right now because I view it as more of a conditional utility card that if MDed is strictly a local metagame choice and not to be based on the general metagame because of its conditional nature and keeper's variety of answers.

[rhox505]

I think that a scepter would go really well in that deck, given that you have instants for removal, drawing, and countering...and removal and countering are minimal.

I think that you need to put more thought into aggro than just the chalices.  I'm not sure what right now, but it just looks weak vs aggro.

Also, I am thinking that a monolith or thran dynamo might be a good thing to help you go off with the Decree.  I haven't tested this I'm just thinking that it might work well.

[Caelestis]

Scepters are not exactly meant for Chalice Keeper, Chronic uses it much better.

As for Aggro, when you have Balance, 2x StP, and soldier tokens for chump blocking, plus a sb Abyss (in Jake's case), it is not too bad.

As for those two, if you are going to toss in Grim, then you might very well play Grim-Power and go for the decking, there is little point in playing Decree and using Grim to power it more - you can easily win with a Decree for 1 given proper board control.

@ Ultima: The Stifles I don't find to be such a bad idea, it gives you an additional LD aspect, saves your fragile manabase, and just does random things that's never really bad for you. However, I won't put them in over Chalices really, which I still find to be a hoser.

[Jakedasnake]

Well, I had a 11 hour flight to Sydney, and nothing much to do but playtest with by buddy.

First, the list:

Counter base:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Stifle*

Draw/Search:
3 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor

Disruption/Removal:
3 Wasteland*
1 Strip Mine
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

Win/Other:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
2 Decree of Justice

Mana Base(non strip effect):
7 SoloMoxen
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast*
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Disenchant
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Coffin Purge*

First off, yes, the deck has 25 mana sources. I'm really going to be testing this hard, but with 6 cheap draw/search effects, I'm leaning towards it MAYBE working out.

I've dropped Mystical Tutor, it just wasn't pulling it's weight. I have less and less Instants and Sorceries to search for, plus it makes managing under a Chalice for 1 easier.

I went down to 3 Wasteland, but added in 2 Stifle. Stifle is a hizzouse against many decks, especially decks like Keeper which run a Fetch Land dependant mana base. Stopping a Strip effect is also huge, and not to mention how effective it is against Dragon.

The Blue Elemental Blast comes back because Blood Moon is coming back.

2 Coffin Purge against Dragon. After sideboarding one comes in, and the other stays on the side to wish for.

Questions or comments?

[BreathWeapon]

Stifle is no Joke, and it deserves serious consideration in any control deck. Right now i'm playing U/r Scepter, you can find my list in the U/r Bloodmoon control thread in the Members Lounge.

Concerning Stifle,

It is an instant Sinkhole for U vs Fetch Lands and a Wasteland hoser. Its other uses, far too many to be listed, should also be considered. It is a late game bomb vs Dragon and has an important stalling effect vs Mask and Slavery.dec. It can allow you to bypass a Chalice, or cancel a Scepter activation. It pwnz Decree of Justice in Keeper/Chronic. It thwarts Standstill and Nev Disk in Landstill, and prevents Pernicious Deed in B/G Void. If I remember correctly, it also buys a turn vs Smokestack and Tangle Wire. I can't tell you how awesome Stifle is on a Scepter, *shiver.* Oh, and its the only card that can stop Tendrils to boot.

That said, is Chalice Keeper worth running over the Chronic? With Long absent from the metagame, and Scepter destroying Aggro ... why bother with Chalices MD anymore? If anything, the only reason to include them in the SB is for Spoils Dragon and Spoils Mask, both of which are going to thrive come Jan 1st.

[Jakedasnake]

Chalice is good against almost EVERY non Workshop deck (except the mirror). Being able to have a large scale counter that can take out the opponents most needed strategy/win condition/search, etc is just vital.

People often misplay Chalice. Chalice should be used in the way that gets the maximum effect while not effecting your strategy. An excellent opening play: Land, Mox, Chalice for 1. Or Land, Mox, Chalice for 0. Both plays slow the opponent down TONS, and allow you to set up your strategy, which is a late game strategy.

I've argued against Scepter in Keeper for a long time, but I have nothing against a deck based around abusing the card. Chronic comes close, but it isn't quite there in my opinion.

The main thing I have against Scepter is that it is very slow. It won't have a guaranteed effect until you have 4 mana. Until then, it's a two card investment with a large potential of destruction with all the artifact hate running around. Once you have 4 mana it's not always a guarantee that you have an instant to imprint, and if you want to guarantee you have an instant you would have to increase the amount of instants you run, and there are plenty of non instant cards worth running.

Stifle owns

[Toad]

26 mana sources was a nice call with 4 Brainstorms to smooth out your mana in early game. With only 3 in your build, 25 is too low, and you'll have trouble against all the heavy LD decks (Neo-Tog, wMUD).

Blue Elemental Blast is a nice card to get rid of Blood Moon if you can Wish for it and then cast it. You have no basic Island in the deck, so you'll have trouble to produce U with Mountains.

Now with Long being dead, Chalice of the Void will probably become only SB material.