Well, there have been a lot of Keeper discussions floatin...

[Jakedasnake]

Well, there have been a lot of Keeper discussions floating around, and I've been putting in my two cents without much clarification. Therefore, I will present my current list with reasons for strange cards.

Here goes:

Mana Sources:
7 SoloMoxen (with emerald*)
1 Library of Alexandria*
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Control Aspects/Removal/Denial
3 Wasteland*
1 Strip Mine
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice*
1 Balance
3 Chalice of the Void*
1 Gorilla Shaman*
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will


Draw/Search
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Read the Runes*
3 Brainstorm*
3 Impulse*
1 Vampiric Tutor*
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall

Other
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

Win
2 Decree of Justice

Sideboard:
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Disenchant
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares*
1 Fire/Ice*
1 Diabolic Edict*
1 Chalice of the Void
1 The Abyss
1 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wasteland

Okay, now for the explanation of the choices you might be going  to:

7 SoloMoxen (with the inclusion of Mox Emerald) In my testing, I have found that having another way to drop an early Chalice is really key, so much so that I've decided to include the Emerald. Aside from the ability to fuel an earlier Chalice, the Mox Emerald also allows me to play a slightly larger Decree of Justice through a Tolarian Academy. This might not seem like much, but having 2 more 1/1 dudes IS pretty huge.

1 Library of Alexandria: Some large discussion has been going on in the Vintage forum, so I thought I would include my two cents. I find that Library is a must in Keeper because every fifth game you're going to draw one early. Seriously. Having a turn one Library that can't be dealt with is basically game. Period. Plus, I run 3 large draw spells, so refilling my hand isn't too difficult. At that point, late in the game, when I can draw to cards to the opponents one, Library really shines.

3 Wasteland: With the format speeding up, 4 Wastelands seem like a must. I basically agree, but I find that quite often. when dropping an early Chalice, that drawing those Wastelands just don't do a huge amount for me. I would much rather draw some business spell than go up to 27 lands. I have included one in the sideboard, however, against Long.dec, Tog, and Workshop matchups. I have also been toying with going back up to 4 Wastelands, and moving the more situational Library to the sideboard for the Keeper on Keeper matchups. My thoughts against this being the fact that I lose my "Oops, I win" kinda hand. Let me know what you think about this.

1 Fire/Ice over the second Swords to Plowshares: Considering that almost 95% of the time I will set the Chalice for 1 against any type of aggro, I feel that having a Fire/Ice to tutor up after laying a Chalice (more effective than using a Cunning Wish to get one on the sideboard) is a superior way to remove any threat they have played.

3 Chalice of the Void: Everybody has probably heard my position on this card, so I don't really want to elaborate on why I have chosen this over Isochron Scepter. If anybody wants to know, tell me and I'll explain.

1 Gorilla Shaman: I have gone down from two because removing Moxen, while huge, is not really what I'm aiming for in Chalice Keeper. Yes, I know, what about apposing Chalices? I want to leave this up to the Wishes for the 3 Artifact removal cards in my sideboard. They aren't going to set a Chalice for 3 most of the time, so I'm pretty safe here. Also, this version can handle Chalices well because of the diverse mana base.

1 Read the Runes: Borrowed tech from Rozetta; Read the Runes allows me to have a cheap draw at instant speed. However, Read the Runes does much more than that. It allows me to discard any cards I have sitting in my hand because of Chalice, allows me to sacrifice a Chalice to play all those spells in my hand, and works kind of like a excellent cycler; it gets rid of all the stuff I no longer need. Read the Runes also allows me to set up a large Yawgmoth's Will, basically putting all the drawn moxen into my graveyard instead of discarding business spells. Over all, Read the Runes is a strong choice for a deck running Chalice in my opinion.

3 Brainstorm: WTF! THREE BRAINSTORM!!?? IS HE FUCKING NUTS!!?? Before you say stuff like that, let me explain. Brainstorm is an excellent choice for Keeper. But when trying to make the mana curve more diverse, drawing into 1 mana spells can be a large loss of tempo. Not to mention the fact that Duress is used less and less currently, so hiding spells isn't that important. And yes, I agree, having the EoT Brainstorm set up for next turn is large, my next choice will make up for this.

3 Impulse: I really like this card in Keeper, especially with 5 Moxen. In my build, playing an Impulse end of turn during the first turn is just as likely as playing a Brainstorm the same way. Digging four cards is big as well. Plus, with Brainstorm, you usually want to optimize your hand by using a Fetch Land, so usually you will sit on it a turn if you have a fetch in your hand. With Chalice in the deck having something more diverse is just more optimal than having a card that requires a Fetch Land to be most effective, and that digs deeper than a Brainstorm.

1 Vampiric Tutor: Very excellent with Chalice in the deck. Being able to tutor up a Chalice for the second turn is game against many decks. Vampiric Tutor also is great for setting up a Yawg Will turn, and having that extra search is great for finding a Decree. Plus, with only two Cunning Wish, it becomes a better slot maindeck.

No Future Sight/Mind Twist: These cards are too slow in the current meta in my opinion. Plus, with a Future Sight and Chalice in play, you will often overturn something you can't play. Having three X draw spells fills the spot nicely.
Mind Twist has been pretty sub-optimal lately. Most decks will be able to counter it anyway, so it is almost always better when they have a low hand count, which is exactly when you don't want it.

Sideboard Choices:

1 Swords to Plowshares/ 1 Fire/Ice/ 1 Diabolic Edict: Having a diverse source of removal is pretty large when you want to have a Chalice in play most every game. Diabolic Edict seems questionable, but against 'Tog, if you have a Chalice for 1, you will have no way to remove a Tog (unless you have an edict, of course  )

Most of the other choices are standard, so if you have a question LMK.

Comments are welcome and wanted, so post away!

[BreathWeapon]

Do you feel that the inclusion of Chalice in Keeper significantly weakens your match up vs Workshop decks? To be specific, as the average CC of Keeper moves towards 2 ... aren't you significantly endangering youself vs decks that can use Chalice to better effect than Keeper, such as Workshop and even Chalice Black?

How effective is dropping a Chalice for 1? Since dropping the Chalice for zero is only signifcant vs Long, and dropping the Chalice for 1 is only really worthwhile vs Budget ... doesn't Chalice seem better as a Side Board hoser?

As far as LOA go's, take it out. Its simply another casualty of the critical turn two. Library is sitting on the side lines with Hypnotic Specter, for now.  

2 Decree of Justice

[Jakedasnake]

Quote Do you feel that the inclusion of Chalice in Keeper significantly weakens your match up vs Workshop decks? To be specific, as the average CC of Keeper moves towards 2 ... aren't you significantly endangering youself vs decks that can use Chalice to better effect than Keeper, such as Workshop and even Chalice Black?

Workshop is a tricky matchup. One one hand, I have the ability to drop a Chalice for 0 after dumping my moxen, stunting their growth. If they drop a Chalice for two, I still have enough search/draw that can find me a Cunning Wish. Plus, game two, I side in the Rack and Ruins.  Another important thing to note is that I can Waste their Workshops, so if I am able to drop a Chalice for 0, they are severely stunted. I can also eat the Chalice if I can find a Shaman.

Quote How effective is dropping a Chalice for 1? Since dropping the Chalice for zero is only signifcant vs Long, and dropping the Chalice for 1 is only really worthwhile vs Budget ... doesn't Chalice seem better as a Side Board hoser?

Dropping a Chalice for 1 is HUGE against many decks, namely Tog and Budget. Against 'Tog they lose their Brainstorms (huge) Duress, and can't use a Berserk to give their dude trample, so I can block all day with Decree tokens. If you really want me to get into the matchup analysis with Chalice, let me know. But it IS kinda late  

Quote As far as LOA go's, take it out. Its simply another casualty of the critical turn two. Library is sitting on the side lines with Hypnotic Specter, for now.

I've been thinking along those lines, but randomly winning is a big plus for me. I do, however, see where you are coming from.

Hope that answered your questions.

[Necrologia]

I'd really try to fit another Shaman in. He's absolutely huge against all the top decks. If nothing else it's another way to get rid of your own Chalice once it gets to be annoying. I really have no idea what to pull for it though.

[Jakedasnake]

Most versions run 2 Shaman to get rid of their Chalice, I run a Read the Runes over my second, mainly because it is MUCH easier to tutor up, nets me some cards, and plays a multi-functional role.

[SMR0079]

Nice build!  It's always good to see people testing variation and metagaming choices, especially with Keeper.  I've opted for 2 Scepters main and 3 chalices side but we all know the details of that discussion.  A couple observations/opinions

3 brainstorm/3 impulse: this is the right fit for Chalice Keeper

26 mana sources is ideal, especially with the Academy, but you really should side the LOA and main the 4th waste

My Balance has moved to the side.  Do you face a good amount of aggro ? Otherwise spot removal seems more effecient

Read the Runes, Rozeta deserves some serious props here.  I'm going to be testing it soon and have high hopes.

Scelatal Scrying: I would move one to the board and bring back Mind Twist, especially with Read the Runes being so similiar.

I'm not sold on the V. Tutor replacing the 2nd Mox Monkey main, I always liked it in the board better.  I do see your logic, but I just despise card disadvantage.

All in all it seems like your doing some good work.  If your going to be in Federal Way on the Tues before Thanksgiving contact me and maybe we can meet up for some games.

Keeper for Life!!!  

 

[rozetta]

Thanks for the props on the card ideas, and I'm glad you guys are finding them useful

I've been trying other peoples' builds of Keeper recently to see how they play with respect to each other. I have some thoughts:

1) Indeed 3 Brainstorm and 3 Impulse seems to be the perfect amount. It keeps an even number of search cards per cc and allows constant digging for answers.

2) I've been a little down on Fire/Ice recently. A friend of mine has a type 1 version of the extended Goblins deck with Lackey, Piledriver, Recruiter, Ringleader, SGCommander, Matron, Charbelcher, etc. Even against that deck, the maindeck Fire/Ice helps very little since a lot of the threats can be dealt with by cycling decree, strategic balancing and mostly just making sure the worst threats are countered. Also, a lot of the threats are in the CIP effects and not the creatures themselves. I can see how it would be good versus suicide, but I'd maybe rather have another swords or other removal spell.

3) I've been running vampiric sideboard, and it seems to be a good place for it. Although I don't often chalice for 1, the vampiric is unfortunately yet another card that is shut down, and I'm also not fond of the card disadvantage, especially right now when you need to really maximize your card advantage.

4) LOA stays maindeck for me. I tend to play a lot of test games without sideboarding, often because the people I play against don't bother building them until the day of a tournament. I therefore need it in control matchups and I've loved it. I know the mana base could do with an extra blue source or two, but with the 6 cantrips, finding the right mana seems to be better now.

5) I'm running 2 shaman right now. I tend to find, however, that he's doing nothing when I go first and drop a chalice for 0. Going second, he's good, but a little slow. Also, it's almost impossible to kill decent sized artifacts such as charbelcher with him. However, for the sake of another cheap permanent, another win condition and the fact that he cheaply deals with a lot of good artifacts right now, I think I'd stick with 2. He also nicely blocks first turn lackeys

6) I find read the runes like skeletal scrying. You don't see a lot of benefit from it early game (maybe less so than scrying), but it's golden mid or late game once you have control. Think of it as a scrying without the lifepoint drawback more than anything else. With the brainstorm/impulse thing, I'm happier about running this now, since I can throw it away if not needed at that moment.

7) I've found that a few peoples' keeper builds have lacked staying power meaning that although they're fast to get control of the game, say, over the first 3 or 4 turns, they don't have something to keep them running and gaining advantage, apart from a few scryings. Often you may have a few cards but no counter for their next topdeck. I'm running a single Future Sight to search for once I've gained some control so that I can stay there.

My list has changed a lot from the one I previously posted in the Vintage forum, but it's still not fully tuned, imo. I'm going to do a little more testing before posting the new version.

[Toad]

You really can't compare Read the Runes and Skeletal Scrying. Skeletal Scrying is a card drawer. Read the Runes will always make you lose a card. It's card disadvantage.

You have 4 cards in hand.
Scrying for 2 => you have 5 cards in hand.
RtR for 2 => you have 3 cards in hand.

If you want to be able to get rid of your own Chalice, play a second Gorilla Shaman. It can also kill oponent's artifacts. Seeing you are playing with only 1 Shaman, 1 Swords and 3 Wastelands will make every Welder MUD player happy. 2 Shamans and 4 Wastelands are almost a no-brainer.

[Matt The Great]

I definitely agree about the Fire/Ice. If I wasn't running Scepter, I wouldn't run F/I main (probably one to wish for, though).

I really like the sound of 3 Brainstorm, 3 Impulse.  I must test this. Read the Runes sounds nice too, but Toad does have some solid points. Only time will tell if it's worth a slot.

[Razvan]

I too have been toying with Read the Runes, and not just as a Gush replacement in Tog (it's rather crazy if you think about it, especially if you sacrifice a whole bunch of not needed permanents in the kill turn)...

It seems to be okay in some decks that want stuff in their graveyard, but totally unusable in most control decks... with a similar cost as Skeletal Scrying (except U instead of B), there isn't really any OTHER advantage to using it.

Let's look at the 2 you described:

1) Set up a large Yawgmoth's Will by discarding moxes insted of business spells. Yes and no. If you Skeletal Scrying-ed, you still have them in your hand instead of the graveyard, so you can cast them without Yawgmoth's Will. I agree that discarding Moxen, and then Will-ing is okay, since it doesn't cost you anything, but you will discard business spells too, and you can only cast them in the YW turn.

2) Kill Chalice. I think we hit on one of the key problems Chalice has. Once in play, you don't want to kill it, unless you are a combo deck. I remember 1996 Necropotence Guide... trying to dispell a myth that you need to have a way to destroy Necropotence. If you do, you miss the whole point. If 19 extra cards can't make you win, nothing will. Similar point here.

Only Stax and similar can have that synergy with Sphere and Welder, since that is their control mechanism, have a symetric card only affect their enemies. Keeper simply... cannot.

Skeletal Scrying is simply better if you can spare the life. Removing extra Brainstorm and Impulses (nice idea of 3 and 3), used counters, stuff that you will not miss (since you have no Timetwister or Regrowth) during the YW turn.

I am not sure why you guys don't run Fire/Ice. In Hulk and other Tog builds, I always run 4 main-deck. The card is simply amazing. Heck, I have used Ice almost as much as I have used Fire, but when you are down to your last Tog, and the opponent has a Maze of Ith... yes!  

I love that  face... it's awesome. Whomever came up with it... good job!

[Jakedasnake]

Quote I've found that a few peoples' keeper builds have lacked staying power meaning that although they're fast to get control of the game, say, over the first 3 or 4 turns, they don't have something to keep them running and gaining advantage, apart from a few scryings. Often you may have a few cards but no counter for their next topdeck. I'm running a single Future Sight to search for once I've gained some control so that I can stay there.

I agree, having a bomb to drop mid-late game is important, but I just find that it cramps my hand a little to much early, and with a Chalice for 0, having it come down off a lotus is difficult, and with a Chalice for 1, I can't play many of the spells that come off the top. I understand where you are coming from, though.

Quote  I've been running vampiric sideboard, and it seems to be a good place for it. Although I don't often chalice for 1, the vampiric is unfortunately yet another card that is shut down, and I'm also not fond of the card disadvantage, especially right now when you need to really maximize your card advantage.

I just love having another tutor maindeck. Like I mentioned, I can search up a Chalice for turn 2, I have another spot to use to search for a Shaman. It's just so versatile. But if I were to remove it, the second shaman would come back in.

Quote You really can't compare Read the Runes and Skeletal Scrying. Skeletal Scrying is a card drawer. Read the Runes will always make you lose a card. It's card disadvantage.

You have 4 cards in hand.
Scrying for 2 => you have 5 cards in hand.
RtR for 2 => you have 3 cards in hand.

If you want to be able to get rid of your own Chalice, play a second Gorilla Shaman. It can also kill oponent's artifacts. Seeing you are playing with only 1 Shaman, 1 Swords and 3 Wastelands will make every Welder MUD player happy. 2 Shamans and 4 Wastelands are almost a no-brainer.

You're right, I can't compare them. That's why I use them completely different. Using a Shaman to kill your own Chalice isn't always full proof, especially if you have it set for 1. Read the Runes can be played for virtualy any number, so getting by Chalice is pretty large. Cycling though my deck is also pretty huge, allowing me to replace all my useless cards for new ones. Read the Runes just has so many uses with Chalice in play. And you're comparing it to Gorilla Shaman, which is card disadvantageous in itself if you use it to destroy your own shaman.

I will try to go up to 4 Wasteland, though.

Fire/Ice also kills basically any creature that needs to be killed early; weenies that hit, Welders, opposing Shamans, Welders, etc.

[shadowspawn]

Well hullo jake,nice to see your still working on Keeper(like I ever doubted)and having positive results with it. I to have been playing it alot recently and plan to reveal my work in a month or so with results, deck problems and many features. One thing I would like to say is that read the runes,although perhaps quite strong,should be put in the sideboard and a 2nd gorilla shaman is a must,it helps in so many ways its not impossible to notice until you've played with it, also your sideboard looks a tad funky IMO. Mine is running only 1 non-instant in it and has been performing EXTREMELY well, with weapons vs near everything.

On another note, Balance is a must for any good metagame,where scrubs usually come out with sui,fish,sligh etc among other things,not to mention balance is really nice against decks like madness etc. Also personally im running 2 fire/ice maindeck and 2 swords sb,ive liked the fire/ice more because it has more options and is more helpful in a load of matchups then swords could be,especially in today's metagame

[rozetta]

I'll clarify the point about Read the Runes, since my comparison to skeletal scrying was a little unclear.

My meaning was that early-game, you often have only a limited amount of cards in your graveyard with which to scry cards with (and in some situations, you really might not want to remove certain cards because they'd be useful during the Yawgmoth's Will, although that's secondary). Similarly, with Read the Runes, although you aren't limited early game, you don't want to use it until you have permanents that could be sacrificed (which is where it's power lies). I don't suggest casting it for a large amount unless you're desperate for an answer. The thing is, it creates card quality, not card advantage. A couple of examples:

If you're holding a yawgwill and have some moxes/chalices/shamen on the table and you're in a situation to cast the yawgwill, cast read the runes eot, sac a couple of permanents, filter away a few useless cards (such as excess land) and then go to town.

You have cards in hand of which a few are not immediately needed (lands, etc) and need to counter a spell an opponent casts. Cast this, filter the cards and dig for a counter.

Early game you're holding a scrying and a read the runes but have very few or no cards to scry with. Cast RtR eot, filter away a few cards and fuel a bigger scrying the following turn.

An opponent deeds away moxes/soldier tokens or wastes a land - cast this to simply cycle the permanents that you would have lost anyway - teferi's response style.

This is a versatile, but situational card. The key is knowing when is the right situation to use it and how much to cast it for. Just like you wouldn't scry your life down too low versus sligh, you need to use good judgement with Read the Runes.

I'm not advocating running it in multiples. In fact I'm not even sure if it's good enough to make the cut in Keeper. However, it's  something I've been trying. Maybe one main or one side would be worth a try, depending on your preference. In fact, not running one at all is fine too. It can save your neck occasionally, and at the very worst you just brainstorm it away as you would a swords versus control or combo, or even pitch it away to FoW, wishing it back later if needed.

[Razvan]

Actually, this has nice synergy with Skeletal Scrying. Read the runes, get X cards, discard X unusable cards, then SS for X, drawing X more cards. Good way to filter fast.

[Caelestis]

Except unless you Drain into some biggie, you are not going to yield that much off it. Scrying often just cycles, Read the Runes doesn't have that option, as Toad broke it down.

[Toad]

Your argumentation is ok, but quite frankly, I've never found myself holding excess lands with Keeper now that Goblin Trenches is commonly seen as a strong win condition. And a land will always fuel your Decrees. If you really want to cycle dead cards, I think you'd rather use Compulsion. It's mana intensive, but is not one shot and is not card disadvantage as you can cantrip it. Be careful, I'm not saying Compulsion is a good card in Keeper - I think it's not - but I rate it higher than Read the Runes. The synergy with opposite Wastelands is just ok. The synergy with Chalice of the Void can be cool, but quite frankly, even in this situation Skeletal Scrying is better. You have 6 cards in hand and cast Read the Runes for 3, get rid of 3 useless cards, and now have 5 cards in hand. You cast Skeletal Scrying for 3, discard 2 useless cards eot to go down to 7. You enhanced your hand in both situations, except with Scrying you've drawn a card, and lost one with Read the Runes. You may have found yourself holding Skeletal Scrying in late game against Sligh or just cycle it, but quite frankly, now with 4 MD Chalice game 2 and 3 against Sligh, with COP:Red and stuff like that, do you fear Sligh anymore?\n\n

[Matt The Great]

You know, I don't think I've ever just cycled Scrying. It's usually for 3-4, and often enough for 2, but never just one.

[Caelestis]

I have done it once or twice in desperation, but it usually comes in 2 or 3. It is always good to have an option, though.

[rozetta]

@Toad: I also tried compulsion, and true, it's a little slow. However, I do agree with the point about the difference between them, and like I said, read the runes is borderline for Keeper at most. It's just been a consideration when testing and would be in addition to the 2 scryings, not instead of them.

Against a good goblin sligh deck, chalice has proven to be situational at best, since the mana costs of key creatures varies from 1 to 4 and the synergy between the creatures makes it very difficult to shut the engine down fast enough. Turn 1 Lackey makes them not care about the chalice anyway. I'd have to say that actually a chalice for 4 is the best against that deck if you can prevent lackeys, since it stops their draw engine (ringleader) and best kill card (charbelcher) and it's incredibly difficult to get one of those out early enough. I'd honestly side chalices out for more creature removal. I don't know what other sligh decks are running, but this one is definitely brutal (take a recent extended listing and add lackeys and lotus/ruby/[wheel]).

Agreed, lands are not something you want to discard in Keeper, since you want to keep ramping up the mana for decree or trenches.

@Toad: every example you give of using RtR, you assume not sacrificing permanents in play. If you look the card up you'll see that you can sacrifice a permanent or discard a card for the X cost. I get your point about it being card disadvantage either way, but if you have unused cards in play or are going to get them back from will/scrying anyway, it's not as useless.

Again, I'm not preaching for it's use, I just think it should be properly understood in the first place.

[Toad]

I remember cycling some Scrying, but only when I've drawn then in really late game against some stupid aggro decks. Even against Sligh, an early Scrying for 3 is really really worth the life loss. Now Keeper has Chalice to deal with Sligh pretty easily, Skeletal Scrying is even stronger. I've never cast a Skeletal Scrying for less than 3 since I'm playing with Chalice.

Edit (rozetta posted while I was typing) : I'm not saying Read the Runes is clearly a bad card in Keeper. Basically, I'm just saying I'd rather have a true card drawing ability (Skeletal Scrying) than just a nice enhancing effect that can sometimes draw me cards (Read the Runes).\n\n

[rozetta]

I've cycled scrying a few times in the past, early game. Especially if you brainstorm and know there's nothing useful coming up (and no fetch to shuffle), you can at least get past one more card to something new. This was obviously because I didn't see any more cards going to the graveyard anytime soon, and it was neccessary to get past the blockage quickly.

@Toad: no problem. I'm currently not running it myself, because I don't have space. However, I sometimes almost sell myself on trying it again, since it allows theoretically cool plays.

[Jakedasnake]

I've alread described my reasons for running Read the Runes, and I feel it does enough to warrent a spot maindeck. It's synergy with Chalice is undeniable, and it does set up large Yawg Will turns. I would never (I think rozetta mentioned this) run it over a second Skeletal Scrying. When you think about it, you really are netting a virtual advantage; you get rid of the useless cards. With Scrying, you draw into useless cards and can't do anything about it. With Read the Runes, you draw the cards first, then discard all the cards you have no need for. Or you can sacrifice some Moxen to play with a Will, get rid of a Chalice so you can play all that stuff off a Will, then replay the Chalice, etc.

I think you need to test it a little bit (sorry if you have alread) to see the synergy is provides.

[Toad]

I perfectly understand the potential pretty synergy with Chalice of the Void. I just have problems to see how "Draw X cards then sacrifice/discard X permanents/cards" can be better than "Draw X cards" only.

I think your build needs a second Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck. You won't scoop to a first turn Metalworker which catches you without FOW, and you'll get an awesome weapon against Dragon. I'd run this over Read the Runes.

[Jakedasnake]

Do you think 2 Swords and a Fire/Ice is necessary?

[Ultima]

personally, i don't find read the runes to be very strong in theory because it requires more of a cost to play than scrying or any other draw card.  As was stated before, the only real deck where your life total is important is sligh where by 4 chalice and a COP red can do alot.

The thing is that RtR requires either your discarding cards or sacing permanents, where in my opinion both of those things seem too costly.  If your topdecking or have next to no cards in hand and topdeck it, its practically dead.  Yeah, you could sac permanents but against Mud or workshop decks, that's an aweful idea and equally aweful in the early game against any deck.

IMO read the runes is not the most optimal draw card to include if your wanting to play another draw card.

at the very least the you cut something for the 2nd shaman and the 4th wasteland, mana denial is still one of the main focuses of keeper regardless of chalice or not.

[Jakedasnake]

I'll say what I've said before: test Read the Runes; you WILL be surprised.

[Caelestis]

Question, if you are going to use Read the Runes, why not use Timetwister?

Quote However, Read the Runes does much more than that. It allows me to discard any cards I have sitting in my hand because of Chalice, allows me to sacrifice a Chalice to play all those spells in my hand, and works kind of like a excellent cycler; it gets rid of all the stuff I no longer need.

Timetwister does the same thing, albeit 'symmertrical', but you really won't worry about that when you have Chalice out, would you?

Quote Read the Runes also allows me to set up a large Yawgmoth's Will, basically putting all the drawn moxen into my graveyard instead of discarding business spells.

Timetwister only is a pseudo-Read in this case, however, it is also much cheaper, and doesn't require the Will.

[Jakedasnake]

Timetwister could be pretty good in fact. I'll test.

[Ged]

A few day ago, I've asked a question on #themanadrain: Is there a place for Read the Runes in Chalice Keeper?
I've been ridiculed to death by some prominent members of this site.
There are two possible explanations:
1) They are small minded and rude sobs
2) They know what they're talking about

Even though I like theory behind RtR, both of the above explanations may be correct.
But keep trying it, I'd really like to see it working.

[Jakedasnake]

I agree. Some times it's been exceptional, some times it has been sub-par, sort of how I imagine Timetwister would be.