GAT is poised to resurge in the current meta, and in my l...

[Psionic]

GAT is poised to resurge in the current meta, and in my limited (1 week) testing of this decklist, it has proven to be very strong and versatile by incorporating elements of Keeper-esque "silver bullet" strategy by wishing & imprinting SB hosers.  I would like to present a decklist, using ideas and logic that have been tossed around my meta and this forum in the recent months.

EDIT: Deck has been updated as per comments.

Draw/Search
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Brainstorm
1x Gush
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Library of Alexandria

Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Merchant Scroll
2x Cunning Wish*

Counters
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
3x Duress
2x Misdirection
2x Stifle**

Utility
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Regrowth
2x Isochron Scepter***
1x Time Walk

Fat
3x Quirion Dryad
2x Psychatog

Mana Sources
5x SoLoMoxen [No off-colors]
1x Strip Mine
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
0x Wasteland****

SB
1x Stifle
1x Crumble
1x Mind Bend
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Ebony Charm
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Fire/Ice
1x Naturalize
1x Artifact Mutation
1x BEB
1x REB
1x Beserk
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Boomerang
1x Funeral Charm


* - 2 Wishes.  The original build ran with 3, and I found that going down to 2 is the right number, and never had a trouble getting one when needed, especially with all the draw.

** - These have been gold against Dragon, Tendrils, opposing Scepters, and more.  I am starting to think that a pair of Stifles should be an auto-inclusion in any blue-based control or aggro/control deck.

*** - 3 Scepters was too many, as they do hurt tempo in exchange for staying power and added draw power.  I'm down to 2 and have been happy with the change.

**** - Although the meta is shifting towards mana denial and NBLH, especially with Dragon and Stax to be the dominating forces and both of them packing troublesome lands, the Wastelands had to go.  There is no room, and so far, the deck has been doing great without them.  My meta packs a lot of mono color and I want a universally good deck.  Too many games I have been sitting on a hand with 2 (or more) Wastelands.  The fact that I can drop them to tap for colorless mana hasn't sold me on them just yet.

I realize the SB looks janky, but I was going for the instant toolbox approach and off the top of my head, I picked those 15 instants.  I would be glad to see some suggestions for improvement, but keep them wishable *and* imprintable please!

It was really painful ripping Future Sight out of the deck, but it usually sat in my hand as my mana was tied up with the Scepters.  The land count is low, but cc's are low to match.

Suggestions?

Psionic

[Flurp™]

I would drop the impulses for brainstorms.  I have been working on a GAT build and the brainstorms have been gold (that might be because I am running 8 fetches).

how is regrowth working for you?  I didnt like them when in testing, but my build is unpowered so I couldnt regrow recall.

I also think that three scepters might be too many.  I would think two would be a good amount so that you dont draw too many.

[Psionic]

@Flurp

The Regrowth is first in line for the axe, but for now I am giving it a change to prove itself, considering that the mana base already supports it.  90% of the time it becomes Recall #2, which is almost reason enough to carry it, especially since there is no FoF, Future Sight, Geyser, Stroke, or Scrying in GAT.  Also, it is good with Yawgmoth's Will, because you can put a FoW back in your hand.  You're right, without a recall, regrowth just lost a lot of purpose in the deck.

I'm really thinking about dropping down to 2 Scepters, as they can be dead cards at time.  I'm not sure what I should put in its slot though.  Another mana source I suppose.

Thanks for your comments, do you mind posting your deck list?

Psionic

[wollblad]

I have done some testing with a deck similar to this one. The biggest issue of your deck is the use of Impulse instead of Brainstorm. I always wish I was alowed to run more than 4 and I can see no reason to run only 2 of them. Impulse is not a bad card, but it puts you behind in tempo compared to Brainstorm.

If you do not want autoloss against Stax and Welder Mud, include red and maindeck at least one Gorilla Shaman and one Fire/Ice. I have then the mana base:
4 Moxen (no white)
1 Lotus
5 fetch
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
3 Underground
1 Island
1 Strip
1 LoA
It is a bit more unstable than your mana base, but it gives you a far better machup against WMud, ToG and Keeper. I would like to fit in Sol Ring or Mox Pearl, but I cannot get it stable enough. As you can see it is 22 mana sources and that's surely enough. Perhaps I could even drop down to 21. I also use Mana Drains but only 3 of them for the moment. I have no doubt that they should be included, but their number is still to be tested.

Regarding the Scepters I think that 2 are enough. They must be played at the right moment. If they are forced through, you can count on them being destroyed directly giving your opponent 2 cards for 1. To not get stuck with more than one in hand, I only use 2 of them. In my experience, cards to be imprinted are seldom wished for and it's not worth messing up your sideboard as you have done only to get all possible wish targets to imprint. This is not an effect of using only 2 Scepters and 2 Cunning Wish as I do. I have tested with 4 Scepters and 4 Wishes and the result was the same. My sidebaord looks like:
2 REB
2 BEB
2 Naturalize
3 Coffin Purge
1 Duress (I have only 2 in main)
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Smother
1 Berserk
but it is not fully evaluated yet. Perhaps I should inlude 2 Tormod's Crypt instead of 2 Coffin Purge and some other changes are possible. As you can see, I have a lot of imprintable wish targets, but can still sidebaord a lot of cards. As your sidebard looks, you can hardly sideboard any card at all.

[Ultima]

Although I think impulse would be a great addition to GAT, I don't believe that cutting brainstorms for them is the right way to go because brainstorm is cheaper and helps smooth out the mana in the early game which is so important because GAT doesn't run the full set of moxen therefore having less accelaration.

If you are not using Fastbond then Gush should go to the side and the more optimal 1 slot draw spell would be FOF because Gush ends up making you lose more tempo based on what was already said.  

Wollbad is correct in that red adds great hate for WMud and Stax although I don't agree that you get an autoloss against it most of the time.  In my extensive testing of this matchup, i find that its more of a 50/50 depending on the draw because their are times when they just can't handle the big dryad just as their are times when you can't handle the stack.

if you choose to try red then I think the manabase should look more like this
6 SoLoMox
4 Delta
3 Undergrund
3 Tropical
2 Volcanic
2 Island
1 Strip
1 Library

Basics are way more important now with all the strips running around.

IMO the SB with red should probably look like this during this meta;

1 Berserk
1 Purge
1 BEB
2 REB
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Naturalize
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Gush
1 Smother
1 Fire/Ice

Additionally, i don't agree with only 1 Tog, Tog is the best creature in type 1 and IMO they pose such a big threat to the opponent that at least 2 should be there.

[wollblad]

A question fo Ultima but also a though in general.

I can see in most sideboards of GAT that Pernicious Deeds are included. When I play Hulk Smash I find them being of great value, mostly against Welder Mud and aggro decks. But most of the times I blow it for two which only takes my moxen and possibly a Gorilla Shaman since I have no permanents for two mana in Hulk Smash. Here we have both Dryads and Scepters which makes it hard to blow up a Deed without heavy permanent loss on our own side as well. Still Deed is used. How come?

[BreathWeapon]

Deed is good in Hulk, bad in GAT. Use Hurkyl's, all you want is Artifact Hate, not board removal. Hulk uses Pernicious Deed over Hurkyl's MD or SB because it helps against Aggro match ups, which is important in the absence of Dryads. Deed isn't Scepter friendly to boot.

Concerning your build Psionic, where in the hell are your Togs man?! Get that craptastic Regrowth and Gush out of your deck for atleast 2-3 Togs. People DO still play Aggro.

If I had to walk into a tournament with GAT, I would run:

Creatures (7)
4xQuirion Dryad
3xPsychatog

Control/Disrutption (10-11)
4xForce of Will
4xDuress
2-3xStifle

Draw/Search (12)
4xAccumulated Knowledge
4xBrainstorm
1xTimewalk
1xAncestral Recall
1xDemonic Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Utility (6-7)
1xYawgmoth's Will
3xCunning Wish
2-3xIsochron Scepter

Mana (24)
5xSoLoMoxen
1xStrip Mine
3-4xWasteland
0-1xLoA
5xFetch Lands
4xUnderground Sea
4xTropical Island
1xIsland

Side Board
1xBerserk
1xVampiric Tutor
1xSmother
1xNaturalize
1xBlue Elemental Blast
3xCoughin Purge
1-2xStifle
3xHurkyl's Recall
1-2xCrumble

Mana denial is no joke people, either pack a full set of Strip/Wastes and a couple of Stifles or go home.

[Ultima]

Actually, in point to fact, the Deeds were suggested as aggro hate.

After testing, GAT has bad matchs against Fish, TNT, Sui/Void(only if your not running Misdirection really) and before restrictions- Madness.

Although Scepter is becoming more and more popular in GAT, it is becoming more apparent that aggro might be making a comeback soon which necessitates the deeds.

This is the primary reason in addition to its slowness/tempo loss that I am not a huge proprietor of Scepter.  

I also disagree in that I think GAT needs hardcasting counters as well as pitchs and LD with stifle is not an effective strategy to be intergrated into GAT at all.  The deck is designed to be on the aggressive most of time, putting the opponent on a short clock for answers with a wall of counters in the way, not slowing and controlling the game with mana denial.  The opponent is supposed to respond to you, not you responding to them with LD

[Psionic]

@Breath Weapon

I have found that the Dryads handle aggro more efficiently than Tog because they do it without wasting Tog fuel.  The lone Tog is for the late game, single swing kill with a fat graveyard waiting to get eaten.  

Regrowth has been great with recall and re-casting AK #3 or #4.  Why does everyone hate this card?  There is hardly any tempo loss.  I mean come on, 1GU for 3 or 4 cards??  

I have to agree with Ultima in the fact that although LD elements have been great in the meta right now, Tog doesn't need them, and it just slows the kill.   I would rather have more draw/threats/counters in my hand, and catch my opponent off guard with a fat Dryad and a REB/Hurkyl/whatever stick for backup.  I play Keeper and love the mana denial aspects, but they fit Keeper's pure control style better.  In GAT, they are still good, just not *mandatory*.  Other aggro needs the Wastes/Strips to fight the uphill battle against control and combo.

@wollblad
I've heard enough uproar about the Impulses that I'm changing the decklist as follows: -2 Impulse +2 Brainstorm.  Will 4 Brainstorm be useful enough considering I run only 4 fetches?

Psionic

[Flurp™]

My list:

GAT:

Critters: 7
4 quirion dryad
3 psychatog

Counters: 14
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 misdirection
3 duress

Draw: 10
4 brainstorm
4 AK
1 future sight
1 gush

Utility: 9
3 cunning wish
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 fastbond
1 yawgmoth's will
2 diabolic edict

Mana: 21
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
4 island
1 strip mine

SB:
1 beserk
1 fact or fiction
1 stifle
1 naturilize
1 misdirection
1 hurlies recall
1 diabolic edict
I am not sure about the rest.

This is for a more aggro dominated meta, the edicts are needed.  I dont use scepters, they make the deck more control-like where my build goes combo more.

[Ultima]

@Wollbad

The deeds are there for the removal against aggro primarily.  The 4 color GAT with red has good artifact removal so deed serves the bad aggro matchs like Fish and TNT most of the time.  

If your running the 3 color traditional version, then the deeds serve more of an artifact and aggro answer.  Hurkyl's is a great artifact hate card but it is becoming more and more inconsistent with many workshop players begginng to cut skullcaps for other draw engines such as Mykeatog's build with mind's eye.

Its true that the deeds sometimes hurt GAT because you'll almost always being killing your own stuff with it as well but their just seems to be too many times when the other aggro decks will just be a bit faster than you and you need that big removal which is another reason why scepter is not needed in GAT IMO(I firmly believe in Future Sight as well).

Many people may not agree but GAT is very good but no where near as powerful as it once was.  The ability to just "go off" is not enough for it anymore because it can't really do that in the same way with the same speed and it needs more of a outlet to answers because of this lack of speed and the understanding that you can't counter everything.  This is the reason why Workshop and other Aggro are GAT's worst matchs IMO.

[eddavatar]

finally a GAT thread that's alive...this is the "thread" that i've posted like a month ago and many of the points still stand after testing....Here are the important points

Fastbond should be taken out. Fastbond happens to sit dead in my hand a lot and I would actually hate seeing it in my opening hand instead of liking it as of 4 gush era. It's card disadvantage at the end and the only time i wanted to see it is to maximize my yawg will (and i sided it out because I would think it's useless but i win the game anyways). And isn't yawg will = win anyways? I would call fastbond a win more card at best and deaddraw at worst. I (and the SD crew) would say Fastbond is excessive.

Future Sight doesn't work too well. While it is a blue card to pitch and it just wins the game when it resolves, the 3 blue is just way too prohibitive. It is also sort of dependent on the fastbond. I played FS w/o fastbond once, but I was clogged as i was topdecking. It does seal games, but often when i actually have it casted i'm in control of the game anyways. The biggest benefit of it is probably against control, but i beat mono-U anyways without casting it. At the end, 5 mana w/ 3 colored is just WAY too much despite the silly strong ability.

2 Tog is enough. Dryads do the dirty job for me most of the time anyway. Tog is back up plan.

Pernicious deed 1 main is good. Just plain testing result.

I might want one more Duress main. I love pumping dryads. Making a dryad 4/4 instead of 3/3 while taking out a control player's counter's just awesome. Duress wins me games. And i would imagine the duress is good against Long.

I would probably say 2 misD is the correct number. No scientific proof tho.

Here's my current decklist

Creature (6)
2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

Spell (32)
1 Pernicious Deed

4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
3 Duress

4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

3 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

Mana (22)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta

SB (15)
1 Berserk
1 Gush
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Blue Elemental blast
1 Coffin Purge
2 Diablic Edict
1 Smother
1 Naturalize
1 Stifle
2 Energy Flux
2 Null Rod

But post January....i think the following modification's going to be necessary.

1)The off color moxes are going to be less important as the meta would slow down a little and Wastelands would become a lot more important due to the expected increase of numbers of Bazaars and Workshops(As if there's not enough of'em already><) 2 more wasteland would be a must and i'll prob find some more spots for a full set.

2)Scepter won't help. GAT aims at overwhelming opponent, not playing a long term game. GAT is an aggro deck in the heart. Scepters will help in late game but it's often something u don't want to see in the opening hand because you want the mana to cast the dryad not a scepter imprinting brainstorm and the FoW to protect the dryad instead of the scepter. I often found that the dryad is enough to finish the job most of the time given the protection. Early on you would not have the resources to spend on the scepter.

The match up i'm still worried about is Workshop-based decks and LD-Oriented Sui(blood moon, Waste, Sinkholes). Other than that, i've confidence in GAT.

P.S. I'm a lotus and a sapphire away from owning the whole deck. If anyone is willing to sell, plz PM me.

[BreathWeapon]

I think people need to get off the "GAT is this and that" trip. GAT is exactly what it needs to be and nothing more. If you stereotype it into a, GAT should never play LD mentality for no justifiable reason ... of which not one was presented, your impeding the decks development. Strip/Waste is a Land and a threat, it doesn't get much better than that. If Neo-Hulk is using the full set of LD, you can bet your ass GAT should be.

I also think its time people turned their attention to Stifle as the next best counter to FoW and Manadrain. The card is amazing, simply put.

Eh, do whatever makes you happy I guess.

[Flurp™]

@eddavatar:

how are the intuitions working?  In my origonal build I ran one but I found that I didnt really need it.  If you are going to run two you need something besides AK to get (like deep anal) but once you do that the deck starts looking too much like hulk.

I dont think the off color moxen are needed the deck is very color hungry.

Gush:  I think that this should be a maindeck card.  one of the big advantages of gush is that its free (or ir produces mana) and with the wishes suddenly gush costs 3 mana.  Now  I realize that you draw it more consistantly this way, but in testing I found that I didnt like wishing for it.

I think that your fastbond point is correct, with 4  gush it was great but now it is dead too often.  Without fastbond I dont think I should be running future sight anymore, I might test one intuition and maybe a deed.

I really have been loving the togs and MisD, I would never cut mine from 3 of each, but I think I play in a much different meta then you.

Thoughts on scepter:
Scepter makes GAT into more of a control deck, its not explosive but I does win games.

EDIT: BreathWeapon posted just as I did.
I dont like the strips in gat just because its such a color hungry deck.  It would be great to drop dryad get him big then strip a few lands, but before you get something out the strips would be a big problem. (also lots of times I only draw into just enough mana and saccing a land would hurt me more than my opponent.

I do like stifles tho, I will test those.

[eddavatar]

Flurp: Yea, i forgot to post the part about intuition and gush from my original post...here it is:

Intuition is necessary evil because of AK. However, the deck does dig faster for some unknown reason (especially puzzling when i don't even run Opt) so very often i end up digging 2 AK from the library while don't know what to do with the last card. I currently removed deep anal from the build, but might throw in one just to see. (And my whole conclusion still stands pretty much after a month of testing, even tho i still can't find space for the deep anal since the deck's been running smooth for me...the only savage losses i've been getting is from a really anal Red-LD deck that's like metagamed against me and i lost because of the pilot rule-lawyering me.)

Cunning wish is crucial. 4 gush GAT doesn't want that many cunning wish because it is a tempo bump and gets in the way. It is only wanted as a berserk fetcher. But now GAT doesn't have the luxury of 4 gushes anymore, Cunning wish become way more important as a silver bullet fetcher and card drawing obtainer (I put both FoF and Gush in SB) as it would be playing a slower game than before. I personally run 3 right now, but 2-4 are all justified.

As of the Gush maindeck issue, I found it too random to have 1 hanging around in the deck and the Intuition/AK engine gives me enough gas anyways. The reason i put both FoF and Gush in sideboard is because it gives me flexability in different kinds of situations, and most of the time FoF is my target of choice anyhow if the situation ever arise. I think I've fetched FoF over Gush a ratio of about 3 times to 1. Still, I can see the reasoning of the Gush in main as tog food and an extra draw card. But for me, Tog usually either don't need the extra fuel, or that the dryads can kill anyway. I would honestly put a duress in over the gush.

As of the wasteland issue....I believe it's a necessary evil. There were so many situations that i was grateful to mise out the strip mine and win me a game at the spot. Bazaar and workshops are just too dangerous.

[Flurp™]

I have just really liked gush in main.  I  had it in side at first, but never wished for it, I am almost never sad to draw one its just such a bomb.  I also think that 2 intuitions are too much with only AKs, I would cut it down to 1.

as for the strips they could be good, but my meta sucks so I dont need them.

[wollblad]

My general experience on Strip Mine is that one is neccesary, but most of the time I do not need it when I draw it. The only matchup where I wish I had more of them is against dragon-decks. As Ultima said, the opponent should react to you, not the other way round.

As for the Intuition part, I feel it is not needed when you have scepters. Accu is perhaps the best card you can imprint, but then you need one in your hand at the same time as a Scepter, you do not want them in your graveyard. I am still not sure if Intuition makes the cut, but as long as I have Scpeters, more than one Intuition is of no use.

Future Sight is too slow and Fastbond no good even if you do use Future Sight. Too often you draw a Fastbond without having any extra lands to play. Instaed I have put Fact or Fiction in Main deck with good results. In my experience, the deck is too scares on mana to be able to both wish for FoF and play it. I only use 2 Cunning Wish and have not missed the last one. I had the same feeling playing Hulk: I often had a Cunning Wish in hand without having any suitable wish targets.

[Psionic]

I have found that Intuition is no longer needed with Scepters either.  Even with no AK's in the yard, AK on a stick is still very good.  And of course, you could always make a Recall stick and auto-win.  

MD Gush is still good tech, as it will allow you to squeeze in an extra 6 damage if swinging with the Tog, and you can Gush in response to spells targetting your Dryads and (hopefully) draw into a FoW or a Brainstorm, or whatever to save them if you carelessly left them unprotected.

Psionic

[eddavatar]

On the Intuition issue: I really don't see how one can run AK reliably w/o intuition. But i do agree to the fact that somehow GAT digs thru the deck faster and often leave me w/ times when i can only dig for 2 AKs. However, one has to keep in mind that intuition can also serve double duty as a desperation tutor. Very often Intuition does exactly that for me. It is also a good way to set up your Yawg Will in case one do not realize. I personally run 2 and i'm often happy when i see it midgame coz it usually means draw 7 cards for me(3+4 for lotta times for me)

On the Scepter: I'll test it out. But i can't see the deck running anything more than 2. I would really hate to see 2 sticks in my opening hand. But the feeling the stick gives me is it's scary in keeper and decks that is dedicated around the stick, but it's just a win-more card in GAT. As a mana-tight deck, GAT wouldn't have enough resources to exploit it. Early game, AK stick is not that wonderful if there's no AK in yard if you ask me.

To wrap it up, Intuition is a blue card that you can pitch to FoW and MisD, that's why I think running intuition is good. Scepter's good but i'm still skeptical and have to test it out.

[Psionic]

On paper, an AK stick with no AKs in the yard doesn't that sound that hot, I know.  IRL however, this is not the case.  A card for 2 mana at instant speed, plus making your Dryad grow if you have one or more on the table has turned out to be amazing for this deck.  And it shouldn't be long with all the draw/tutoring before you get at least 1 AK in the yard, at which point the AK on a stick is just an auto-win situation for GAT.

Psionic

[Flurp™]

I think that Intuition is not needed.  Besides the first AK you play all the other AKs are great.  after I have already played an AK I dont think that I need an intuition,I usually draw into another fairly quickly.

[blue_negator]

Why not play red?  Fire/Ice is simply broken on a scepter.  Red offers not only fire/ice main board it offers REB, artifact mutation, terminate, etc in the SB which is accessible by cunning wish game 1.  Here is a rough sketch of my build, i'm at school right now so I don't have the exact list with me

3 quirion dryad
2 psychatog

3 scepters
4 brainstorms
3 AK
3 Fire/ice
4 mana drain
4 fow
2 misd

1 mystical tutor
1 yawgwill
1 timewalk
1 gush
1 DT
1 ancestral
1 future sight

3 cunning wish

4 tropical island
3 volcanic island
3 underground sea
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 loa
1 stripmine
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 sol ring

Like I said the deck is probably missing some cards but thats the basic outline.  The obvious problem here is the fact that I don't run a single basic land.  And with the predicted rise of blood moon that could be a fatal flaw.  But so far I haven't really been in a position where playing a basic island would have won me the game.  But the strip mine might go out for an island.  The problem with playing only one strip mine is that it's too random.  When you play one strip mine the only real use for it is to kill LOA.  When you only play one strip mine it's hard to execute any kind of mana denial strategy so a lot of times strip mine is just there for the colorless mana.  

The way i've set up my deck, it plays like a cross between GAT and Hulk.  I forgot who mentioned this (grand inquisitor i think) he said that there are two types of GAT the more aggro control version and the more controllish verison.  I personally think the more controllish version is better.  The aggro control version has a lot of sub optimal draw cards that is good when you have a dryad but when you don't you are just wasting mana to search for a threat/answer.  With the more controllish version the card quality and staying power of the deck goes up.  Without 4 gush it's hard to simply overpower your opponent.  I feel a more controllish version of GAT gives you the control power of hulk but with more win conditions (my personal problem with hulk is that it has too few win conditions i've played games where my opponent has drawn like 30 cards and no tog)  As for gush, I feel that it should always be mainboard.  It's almost always good when you draw it and if you put it in the SB it has to fight with FoF as a wish target.  As for fastbond I don't think it makes the cut here.  With only one gush and no dazes it just doesn't do enough.  Sure with yawgwill it's broken but most likely when you cast yawgwill you are going to win anyways.  Now, back to what i feel is the MVP of the deck Fire/ice.  If you don't play scepter then i guess fire/ice isn't "that"  good but if you do play scepter then I cannot stress enough how good this card is.  I cut my 4th AK to the SB to play an extra fire/ice.  Fire/ice lets you cycle the card when you don't need it and it lets you tap your opponents permanent eot so you can setup for a broken turn.  It allows you to kill withered wretches, birds, welders, goblins, gorilla shaman, and a bunch of other random weenies.  When it is on a scepter the drawing power it offers is tremendous, it taps dreadnought every turn and nets you a card.  It lets you tap their creatures eot so you can swing for lethal damage.  The uses of fire/ice on a stick is endless.   And even though i usually hate 4 color decks because i hate getting color screwed, my current build has treated me surprisingly well.  The key is you don't really NEED the red or even the black mana early on in the game.  Sometimes you don't even need the red at all.  The scepter lets you play fire/ice with colorless mana.

[BreathWeapon]

Ya, I don't think we want to be playing a deck that is completely mauled by Bloodmoon come Jan 1st. Its probably better to scrap Hulk and GAT until the play environment opens up for them again.

[blue_negator]

I disagree with this.  By saying that you are basically condemning all multicolored control.  Except for my build I think alll the other builds contain like 2 basic islands, which is pretty much what the other control decks play.  With the exception of URphid practically all the other decks that run blood moon has no counterspells.  Parfait sometimes would run main board blood moons yet it still wasn't that great against control.  The fact that they lay down a blood moon doesn't mean it's over.  They have to put you on a clock first.  Not only can you cunning wish for a answer you can float mana into your mana pool in response to blood moon and kill it when it resolves.  A lot of times it comes down to playing correctly and building your deck to adjust to the meta

[eddavatar]

Blue_Negator: I do agree to the fact that Fire/Ice would be a nice addition, but it's dependent on the fact that scepter is added to the deck, which i'm yet to be sold on. However, if you are going to add fire/ice, why not just go for the white splash and give you the weapon of Swords and meddling mages? However, your scepterGAT build is a lot closer to what i think would work. I'm going to test it out as soon as possible.

And on the issue of the more aggroish or controllish version of GAT, I believe it's just the matter of playstyle. I'm an Aggro player by heart so i play Hulk as if it's an aggro deck anyhow XD

[blue_negator]

eddavatar:  I personally don't really like meddling mage.  I use to play UGW super gro with meddling mages and they never really turn out to be that great.  They are decent but not fantastic imo.  Also white give stp, balance, disenchant.  Red gives fire/ice, artifact mutation, deed, REB, terminate.  Now, imo fire/ice is better then stp the main reason being that it lets you draw cards.  I've been using the scepter in various different decks - urphid, gat, random control etc ever since it came out and a lot of times i would rather put AK/fire/ice/brainstorm etc rather then even a mana drain.  The reason being that mana drain and stp is reactive while the other card drawers are proactive.  My friend plays a deck with stp/scepter and i couldn't care less when he has that out.  It just sits there doing nothing its the same with counterspells (of course it really depends on what deck you are playing against) Putting a card draw spell give you more bang for the buck.  Which is something you really have to calculate when you use scepter.  You can use fire/ice on a scepter everyturn but a stp on a scepter you might use like maybe twice the entire game.  As powerful as a mana drain on a scepter is, a lot of times they can just hold their cards until they can kill your scepter with multiple counter backup.  STP/mana drain just stalls the game while card drawing sets you up for the win.  Of course this is all just from my personal experience so results may vary

[Grand Inquisitor]

Regarding Scepter, I'm sort of torn.  It significantly improves aggro matchups, and although I don't have much experience, it seems to help the problematic Workshop matchup.  However, it seems like too much of a tempo loss against combo, and too much card-disadvantage against control.  Can anyone else speak with testing experience on whether scepter has been great, or really bit them in the ass?

Also, is anyone testing a white splash for a 4-color build?

Quote Its probably better to scrap Hulk and GAT until the play environment opens up for them again

I played two games yesterday where an URphid player resolved bloodmoon.  I promptly fetched island, and brainstormed->AK'd->Wished->BEB'd right back into the game for the win.  So long as you're expecting it, and build the deck accordingly, Urphid, while dangerous, shouldn't be a bad matchup.

[Flurp™]

I have not yet tested scepter, but I am wondering what are your thoughs on stifle maindeck?  I have found them to be very helpful but its hard to tell if they are really worth the slot.  I am not running any wastelands so I cant go the mana denile rout but stifleing a fetch is great tempo.  I am going to test replaceing them with scepters.  Is scepter worth it if you are not running red?  I am running 2 edicts in main already (they would be switched for fire/ice).  Is it worth adding a whole new color just for scepter?

[blue_negator]

I don't think stifle mainboard is worth it.  It may randomly mana screw someone who is playing fetchlands and it stops deed but I still believe that it is too situational at this point to deserve a slot mainboard.

Grand inquisitor:  I don't think white is better then red in this situation, i presented my case in an earlier post.  Of course depending on your meta you might need something that white can provide but red can't.  But i think red helps in the control matchup with REB, helps overall with fire/ice, and helps the workshop matchup with artifact mutation and rack and ruin.  Against combo the scepter is decent I guess, putting a counterspell on the scepter screws them pretty bad.  I don't know what you can really run mainboard against combo anyways (namely dragon and rector trix i guess) Against control the scepter is SO good.  If you cast scepter they have to counter it.  Most of the time it will net you a 2 for 1, hell you can cast it even if you don't have anything to imprint just to bait their counterspells.  Most control decks don't pack main board artifact destruction, even if they do they will probably have 1 and at most 2.  The chances of them having it in hand when you cast it is slim.  You activate the scepter twice and you get your investment back.

[BreathWeapon]

While Bloodmoon in and of itself may not be a problem if you have the opportunity to Fetch an Island, C.Wish and BEB it doesn't happen as often as we'd all like to think.

Also, who is playing Phids? Dryad is pretty awful against Fire/Ice on a Scepter, heaven forbid STP from the Chronic or U/R/W Scepter.

I was tempted to try Null Rod I was getting soo desperate in these match ups. Hell, Null Rod is still a thought IMO.