Well im only going too be home for tonight, then vacation...

[BuboniC]

Well im only going too be home for tonight, then vacation- so I decided too make this post and my Old School Fish one. But besides that point, this thread is all about one of the most viable budget decks around, Mono Black Dragon Reanimator. I have been working only one week, but an intense week on the deck, and have devised a list that can win first turn, and reliably by the third turn, and packs 10 disruption. But a question arises, can it be as compete even comparitably as well as Bazaar Dragon. Well the obvious answer is no, but im going too attempt too make it as good as it can possibly can be. Here is my current list:

4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Buried Alive
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Jalum Tome
3 Unmask
2 Necromancy
1 Entomb
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Spoils of the Vault
1 Undead Gladiator
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Sliver Queen

Mana:
13 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Reanimate
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Powder Keg
2 Verdant Force

Buried Alive:
The getter of the kill, Buried Alive+Animate spell=Good Game.

Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy:
The kill cards, Necromancy is instant, which makes it a kill with undead gladiator during your upkeep. Also I found Chalice for two was a hard card too beat, and necromancy is my only hopeful.

Duress/Cabal Therapy/Unmask:
The disruption, Unmask=Black's Force of Will, these are mainly only defensive disruption, but in the right moment can be an offensive against any deck that kills faster than mine.

Jalum Tome:
Budget Dragon's Bazaar of Baghdad, this is the deck's engine of worldgorger combo.I have searched for another answer beside the 3cc Tome, but came up empty. It looks janky, but has proved itself worthy.

Undead Gladiator:
I only use 1 because if I have a necromancy+buried Alive in my hand then I will Buried Alive for 1 Ambassador, 1 Worldgorger, and 1 Gladiator, then kill next upkeep with necromancy as an instant.

Sliver Queen:
The alternate kill if ambassador gets spoiled away. May get the axe, but for now it makes MD.

Ancient Tomb:
Allows quicker kills, and a faster tome, this card has both annoyed me and surprised me. It helps more than I thought it would- thank you Crater Helion   .

Here is just a small sample where my friend played with my MUD against my budget gorger, I just wanted too playtest against a deck that packs as much hate as I will likely play in the near future:

I win diceroll, and choose too go first.

Opening hand(a good one):
Worldgorger Dragon
Dark Ritual
Buried Alive
Swamp
Cabal Therapy
Unmask
Animate Dead

My First Turn:
Swamp, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive for Ambassador, Dragon, and Undead gladiator, then unmask removing Cabal Therapy, his hand:
Metal Worker
Mindslaver
Goblin Welder
Mishra's Workshop
City of Traitor's
Sol Ring
Tangle Wire

Tough:
I take the slaver and say go.

His Turn:
Workshop, Metal worker, go.

My turn:
Draw a Jalum Tome and say go  

His turn:
another workshop(doesnt look good) make 6 and play Karn+sol Ring and tap metal worker revealing tangle wire, play it, then soak the mana with karn, go.

My Turn:
draw swamp, play it and say go.

his turn:
he leaves tangle wire, sol ring and karn utapped, plays a city of traitors, and hits me for 8.(im at 12)

my turn:
draw Dark Ritual, go.

His turn:
swings for 8(im at 4)

I draw:
swamp(yesss) play ritual, animating gorger and kill.

this is just a sample, only one match, and this is after SBing.

I am going too work on the deck very thoroughly, and could use any help possible, I tried U/B and it didnt pan out well- even with careful study. Thanks for any replies I get.
                                          -BuboniC

[BreathWeapon]

Entomb and Undead Gladiator probably aren't worth the inclusion. The best/fastest build I came up with in budget was,

Combo
4xWorldgorger Dragon
1xSliver Queen
1xAmbassador Laquatas

Outlets
4xBuried Alive
4xJalum Tome

Animates
4xAnimate Dead
4xDance of the Dead

Search
4xSpoils of the Vault
1xDemonic Tutor
1xDemonic Consultation
1xVampiric Tutor

Disruption
4xUnmask
4xDuress

Mana
4xDark Ritual
Land and accelerants to taste.

[Arvid]

Is Jalum Tome really worth it? Isn't it better to splash blue for Careful Study and/or Compulsion? This way you could make use of Intuition too, I know blue is less good than the black variant when lacking power but Jalum Tome just seems crappy to me. Ever considered Zombie Infestation? And is Squee so much worse in the black build?

[BuboniC]

@breathweapon:
I have tried 3 spoils and didnt like it, I am trying two now, 4 jalum Tome is a little heavy, and I think your deck would have too concede too a chalice for 2. Thanks for the list, I will test even more spoils in the near future.

@Arvid:
of course Tome is worth it, it makes entomb for dragon no longer a waste, and I still think the deck should use them. In my meta, there are alot of chalice, and they are smart with them, so I would need the necromancy+undead Gladiator engine troo win. I have tested blue and didnt like it at all.

[BuboniC]

I just need too find better engines...Then the deck would be a sucess for sure. I tested vs. fish and got destroyed...I need an answer for all the hate

[GoogleBoots]

Note: This is speaking from playing a nearly unproxied powered dragon.

If you think about it, blue may not be a horrible idea. Granted, FoW won't have much of a place, but I've found that Compulsion is gold, and Intuition is a godly tutor on average. It can put a card in your hand and can throw valuable d00ds in the grave. Compulsion just is good, granted it's a bit slow, but you win with Compulsion+ animate/dragon + 1 card in hand. 4th turn isn't slow for unpowered IMO, but you play ritual, so that can happen on 2-3.

I've heard mostly good things about Gladiator, but I haven't tried it. Is it the engine to draw cards to win that you want a new of, or is it the draw power in the deck to get the win that you want to be better? Blue can help that too

Please correct me if I'm completely bullshitted on all of this, it's just what seems apparent to me, or what I've heard.

[pox_Master]

Splashing Blue helps greatly. You get Lim Dul Vault, Compulsion, Force of Will and access To Aerial Caravan and Opportunity. Caravan and Opportunity let you get around many Problem cards like Blessing and Ankh of Mishra. Also, Dumping an Aerial into the grave with a Worldgorger allows you to win but also to be able to survive graveyard hate since laquatus was not in the graveyard. It has helped me a lot and I now have more room in my sideboard for other problems.

[BuboniC]

I only briefly tested blue out, and didnt like it emidiatley. I think Intuition is great, but Compulsion is 1 blue and 1 black, so it can't be ritualed out first turn- Tome can. Also I think Careful Study is very bad- it may be good first turn and only- but wouldn't you rather intuition or buried alive and win? My mono-black version has been winning consistantly third turn, with duress/therapy/unmask backup. Every once and awhile, it goes off first, or second. I would like too see a B/U list for gorger, and then I would solitare it on magic workstation. Thatnks for replies/suggestions.

[Lunk]

If it helps at all, here's my admittedly somewhat untuned U/B bazaarless dragon:
Land: 17
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Underground Sea
        4 Polluted Delta
        3 Swamp
        2 Underground River
        3 Wasteland
Accelerants: 9
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
Combo Critters: 6
        4 Worldgorger Dragon
        1 Ambassador Laquatus
        1 Aerial Caravan
Combo Pieces & Engines: 20
        1 Frantic Search
        3 Compulsion
        8 Animates (Debating the mix of 2cc's vs. necromancy and animates vs dances)
        1 Entomb
        4 Buried Alive
        3 Careful Study
Protection & Dig: 8
        2 Lim-Dul's Vault
        1 Demonic Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        1 Recoil

Sideboard so far is basically hate against dragon hate... Jester's Cap and Stroke of Genius to stop Gaea's Blessing, Defense Grid to impede Stifle/STP/Edict, etc.  I also included Phyrexian Negators which have been golden for me so far when I've brought them in.

Note that I'm far from preaching this as the proper build.  This is simply one that I've been tinkering around with the last few days and had reasonable success with, and thought it might give you something to work off.  Notably missing from the build are Intuitions, which I haven't really been missing since I dropped them.  Perhaps I'm doing something horribly wrong, but I didn't like their fickle nature, the inability to pick out what I wanted.

[BreathWeapon]

Buried Alive is MUCH beter than Intuition in the absence of Bazaars. You need to be as fast as possible, and Buried Alive + Animate = Win. Intuition + Animate = Draw.

Hellz ya i'm sure Jalum Tome is worth it. Its easily just as good as Compulsion.

Splashing Blue doesn't seem prudent to me. Careful studies are ASS, Intuitions are slower than Buried Alive and the restricted budget Blue doesn't have much to offer. You get a slower deck and manabase thats PWNED by Bloodmoon, not the way to go.

Bubonic, have you tried ESG and Ancient Tombs to speed you up a turn possibly? I average a turn 3 kill with the above deck consistantly, and its capable of turn two killz reasonably.

[Crater Hellion]

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=23;t=12117

However, use blue if you don't have access to bazaars. It has just proven to be better. Not for intuition, but mainly compulsion and possibly careful study. Running enough U for force is tough and probably not worth it also.

[mouth]

The whole point of Undead Gladiator is to make Intuition-> WGD, Laquatus, Gladiator a win. Normally, Intuition for WGD, WGD, Laquatus would require an additional discard outlet, which isn't always there. The Gladiator just happens to be able to mill your entire library too, if used with Necromancy. But Buried Alive -> WGD, Laquatus, Gladiator is dumb. You don't need to mill yourself if Ambassador is already in your yard.

Budget Daggron gains alot from the addition of U, and Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors. If you're using Intuitions, Buried Alives and Necromancies, I'd suggest you at least try them for yourself.

[Lunk]

Since this is a bazaarless budget dragon thread, I thought it wouldn't be too inappropriate to ask for a little help on my own.  Considering the list I posted above, what do you think would be best for the 4 Force of Will slots?  Force of Will, Duress, or Cabal Therapy?  

Also, what do you guys feel is the more appropriate choice for the 2 Lim-Dul's Vault slots?  The Vaults replaced Tainted Pact when I put Force of Will into the deck as another discardable choice.  I like the fact that with Tainted Pact you get to put the card immediately to hand and it only requires 1B instead of UB.  On the downside, however, it has relatively high potential to fizzle out and get nothing and if I see Laquatus I absolutely have to stop.  Any thoughts?

[BuboniC]

Quote (Lunk @ Dec. 04 2003,12:33)Since this is a bazaarless budget dragon thread, I thought it wouldn't be too inappropriate to ask for a little help on my own.  Considering the list I posted above, what do you think would be best for the 4 Force of Will slots?  Force of Will, Duress, or Cabal Therapy?  

Also, what do you guys feel is the more appropriate choice for the 2 Lim-Dul's Vault slots?  The Vaults replaced Tainted Pact when I put Force of Will into the deck as another discardable choice.  I like the fact that with Tainted Pact you get to put the card immediately to hand and it only requires 1B instead of UB.  On the downside, however, it has relatively high potential to fizzle out and get nothing and if I see Laquatus I absolutely have to stop.  Any thoughts?

In mono black version you generally use 10-12 disruption, 3 unmask, 3 cabal therapy, 4 duress. Basiccaly Unmask=Black's FoW(in mono B gorger) . Also how many spoils do you use? I have switched too 1 Laquatus, and 1 sliver queen as kill- so I can use spoils and not get rid of the only kill. Also Queen can be pitched too unmask if it's unnecesary.

@Mouth:
If you intuition for gorger, gladiator and laquatus, why wouldnt they simply let you have the worldgorger in your hand, and the only way too win is too have 5 mana and a necro in your hand? Weak.

@Crater Helion(John):
I have yet too try out blue without Force, but I still feel the same that a mirst turn ritualed out Tome or buried alive is better than a second turn compulsion.

@Breathweapon:
I use ANcient Tomb- 2 of them, I tried 3 but I got dissapointed and drew 2 every once and a while, but the speed and acceleration was great.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not sure whats to be gained by using B/U or B/U/g for budget Dragon come Jan 1st. Yes, Compulsion is better than Jalum Tome and FoW is a reactive answer, but does it make a lot of sense to make the deck a target for Bloodmoon?

I'm pretty convinced that Spoils is what makes this budget build even viable, but thats just me. I am sort of tempted to cut Vampiric Tutor and replace it with another piece of mana acceleration. Not having the card you need in hand kind of sucks.

Is anybody really happy with Sliver Queen? It forces us to wait another turn to win, why not just use 2 Laquatas? Is there any down side to this i'm not aware of?

[BuboniC]

Yes- people board in Gaea's Blessing- and Queen is just an alternative, and can be pitched too Unmask. When using Spoils I have removed my laquatus a couple times, and they figured I lost, until you go off next turn. Mono Black budget worldgorger>B/U Gorger(budget) but in the Bazaar+power world, B/U geats ahead. I can be proven wrong by this, as I have been only playing gorger for about 2 weeks.

[Crater Hellion]

when you inquired about my build and particularly the # of disruption, I said 10 was ok. I didn't know you were using 3 unmask, 3 therapy, and 4 duress. Then I remembered the whole defense grid thing.. I would only pack 10 disruption MD if 3 were defense grid.

[Crater Hellion]

maybe you should use Millikin for lack of bazaar. If you use 4, you can reliably draw one I should think, and casting it is no problem. This way you can go off with only Dragon in the graveyard. Just a thought. I don't want to post my list with it though- because then you'd just steal that too  

edit: alright fine I'll post it

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Shivan Hellkite
1 Flamewave Invoker
2 Gamble
1 Entomb
4 Buried Alive
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Spoils of the Vault
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Millikin
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Swamp
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin
SB: 3 Tormod’s Crypt
SB: 3 Verdant Force
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void

[Sytupal]

John, i played against this build yesterday, 4 games straight.  Without any counter hate against it, it consistantly went off turn 2.  Granted, against counter or swords you're fucked, but still, it's an extrememly interesting build using the tomes considering you can now use that to mill for your win card..

now, as for whose ideas are whose, i'll leave that to you guys.

[Crater Hellion]

meh.

the main thing I'm getting at is that in budget, Millikin is like 10x > tome.

[rogueplayer11]

But wouldn't Millikin have summoning sickness after it is removed from play and brought back?

[Crater Hellion]

sigh.
yup. damn.. back to the drawing board :/
edit: no, I'm going to second guess my second guess.. I think that unless you play it the turn you animate dragon (making it useless, because that would mean you probably buried alive'd dragon and millikin) that it would not have summoning sickness. someone please verify this/correct me if I'm wrong?

[BreathWeapon]

Milikin likes to suck down Fire/Ice a whole lot. Its not faster than Tomb tho', its just cheaper. You can lay down a Tomb and win in a single turn given enough mana.

I'm just not sure I can give the Nod to this guy over say ... Hermit Druid? Pretty much the same weakness' but he doesn't get pwned by Artifact Hate. Ya see, Milikin only kicks ass when your already going off. He in no way assists you in doing so. Jalum Tome will get the Dragon out of your hand, AND find your kill condition. Now, Hermit Druid allows you to build a deck without 4 Dragon in it, you only need 2, gives you access to Reclemation if you want it and gives you the Cabal Therapy trick to protect your set up. The big question is how well does Hermit Druid interact with Spoils of the Vault, and can the two learn to live in harmony?

So ya, I'm calling BS on Millikin, he does nothing better than his alternatives. Why in the hell don't you just play Cursed Scroll instead, as Millikan is pretty much your win condition. Please don't tell me you expect to over turn a Dragon with his ability either ...\n\n

[Crater Hellion]

Why doesn't it help go off? it puts the top card of your library into your graveyard.. it's horrendously slow but it can be used for that.. anyway it's certainly better than tome in that aspect which is all I've been saying..

[BreathWeapon]

Does anybody else think that Hermit Druid is the fastest non-Bazaar method of putting a Dragon into the GY? It seems really good to me, being both a Dragon outlet and disruption piece with Cabal Therapy in your deck.

I think i'm gonna try,

-4 Jalum Tome, +4 Hermit Druid
-4 Unmaks, +4 Cabal Therapy
-1 Dragon -1 Vampiric Tutor, +2 Reclamation

Using a Manabase of,

4xDark Ritual
4xESG
5xFetch Land
4xBayou
4xLlanowar Wastes
1xSol Ring
1xMana Crypt

[Crater Hellion]

why play dragon over ghoul in this case though?

[BuboniC]

OK: I have now tested Milikin, Hermit Druid, and Jalum Tome, and these are the results:
1) Milikin:
To weak, it not only has the weakness of an artifact, but it is a creature, too. I am in a Meta with a lot of Sui, as you know John and Richard, and even they can put it together that it is obviously a combo piece.

2) Hermit Druid:
This was too slow, and would cause nonbasic land weakness (splash green). This also (main reason) can't be ritualed out first turn; it's so essential for the deck. It makes you ninety-percent of the time win third turn, and that isn’t the point of this list, the point is too perfect it and make it go off second turn casually, which it is nearly doing.

3) Jalum Tome:
This is the choice, can be ritualed out first turn, allows you too pitch a Dragon to the graveyard, and then go off. Only three will be used- considering I use 11 kill cards (3 Tome, 4 Buried Alive, 1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Vampiric Tutor, 2 Spoils)

What I need is something to "hate the hate", this would make the deck much more successful- I have tried Chalice in SB, and would use Defense Grid if Crater Hellion didn't claim it as a "tech" and I would lose my life if I took it  . These are the cards I need too hate out:
Seal of Cleansing
Swords to Plowshares
Tormod's Crypt
Planar Void
Various counters
Ground Seal (I saw a keeper using it   )
Any instant creature destruction (that can hit the Gorger)
Stifle
Gaea's Blessing

[Haksaw]

I agree that there is a great degree of single card strategy you've got to worry about...people are all about hatin' Dragon right now, it's one of the quicker and consistent combos to pull.

@ Bubonic
The only cards I've come up with are those that target your kill condition (Laquatus or Sliver Queen).  I think I've got a solution for some of the standing threats, but it approaches your "nonbasic land weakness (splash green)"...

Gaea's Blessing - If that leaves only Sliver Queen for kill, people will (and do try it).  You've got to respond with some instant speed graveyard removal...i.e. Coffin Purge.  In response to Blessing's ability going to the stack, you remove it from the game.  Most decks aren't sacrificing more than 1 sideboard spot to Blessing, but Coffin Purge would cover that rogue that wants to get cheeky and have another.

Caltrops - I'm not kidding.  This showed up last week, in response to a big discussion were Stroke of Genius was pulled from our local players decks.  Why just hose Laquatus, when you can deal with an infinite amount of Slivers.  I think that this is a week choice, but with Workshop.dec rampant in my area, if they go first, they've got an opportunity.  Once again, it wastes sideboard slots, but if the deck to beat is Dragon, people will figure out a way to use it, or something better.

Planar Void, Tormod's Crypt, Seal of Cleansing - These all delay your ability to "go off".  Inherently, you've got to delay around these cheap solutions.  My solution:  Pernicious Deed.  Nether Void runs them mainboard, and I think you'll find that they deal with a majority of threats that your non-powered version will want to deal with.  Keeping your graveyard small can result in a 3rd turn Deed, dealing with at least the cards I've mentioned, and clearing away Moxen and other advantage cards.  The non-basic issue is complicated, as you have to make motions with Fetchlands to ensure that you get the Bayou, lowering your Swamp count...the same issue with Hermit Druid.  The last thing you want is to be sitting on the wrong side of a Blood Moon.  Then again, I think that Deed's utility will even see you through the Blood Moons and Powder Kegs, you've just got to get it out before they do, or Duress it away.

As to Stifle, Swords to Plowshares, I think these are your two biggest problems.  One leads to you gaining 7 life, the other to you losing all of your permanants on a countered "return all permanents removed by Worldgorger".  To those, I say win the coin flip, and Duress/Cabal Therapy your ass off.  Anyone else?  Mono-black solutions?

[BuboniC]

@Haksaw:
Chalice of the Void: my Pernicous Deed. I hadn't thought of graveyard hate vs. Blessing, so I will likely board in Tormod's Crypt in game 3, then win. Pernicous Deed sounds awsome- expecaily since there are alot of scrubby Isochron decks in my meta, but I may SB Powder Kegs as well.

[BaronSengir]

And don't forget the evil Jester's Cap

about caltrops: they definetly hose the sliver queen's win condition, but some Dragon builds now run Shivan Hellkite (reverse damage? time to pull out old school), and there isnt anyway from beating Laquatus except if  the animate enchantment is hosed before it hits him.

Discard, other than direct hate, is probably to only way to get rid of said hate. But Dragon focuses on disrupting and holding counters to ensure that they can go off, which is why necromancy is probably better as it can be played as an instant. You should run at least 3 Necromancy