OK, I have to be one of the staunchest believers in card ...

[jazzy kat]

OK, I have to be one of the staunchest believers in card advantage. While scepter's have the ability to generate card advantage, they are initially card disadvantage. Why is everyone so enamored by it. People are even trying to put it in tog, in T1 I try to go off real fast with tog, so I run someone over(Toad said something to the effect of: tempo = berserk ma fucking tog on turn 3 for 20). I don't want to waste the mana or turn putting something on a scepter. Then activating it to hopefully get something.

What is the big deal about scepter (and if you say putting ancestral on it, then I will hit you)?

EDIT: ...and if you say that you want to put timewalk on it then I will kick you in the crotch.

[Diddler]

I have thought exactly the same thing...  I can really only think of it as a fun card, not a competetive card.  Granted, when it works, it works pretty good.  When it doesn't work, don't you feel like a knob for playing with it?

I don't like the card.  I wouldn't use it outside of multiplayer...

[Klep]

Perhaps you should ask CrazyCarl, seeing as how he Top-8'ed with it at Waterbury.

Or perhaps Glenchuy could tell you about how it helped take him to 2 consecutive 2nd place finishes in Manilla.

Or perhaps I could tell you that, just like any number of other cards, it is a card that requires thinking to play.  You don't just throw down a Scepter as soon as you get it, you use it intelligently, and you use it in the right deck.  If your Tog is racing to just win the game, you don't use it.  If you're trying to establish long-term control of the game, then it is an excellent card for helping to do that.

-David 'Klep' Kleppinger, Raving Lunatic

[cssamerican]

jazzy kat: It is has its uses, Plow on a stick is good, Impluse on a stick is good, and well you get the idea. Now with that being said I could see it in Keeper, in fact, I think there is some variant called Chronic but I not exactly sure what the deck consist of. Tog should never run it in my opinion because it already draws fast enough and it already handles Aggro the only thing you do by putting a Sceptor in it is slow it down. I think most people are to obsessed by the thought of 3 Ak in the grave and one imprinted on a stick, and it clouds their judgement.
Klep: I am not going to question Carl's deck buillding skills here since it is obvious he is a better player than me, but it would be intesting to know why he thinks it is a good card in a deck based around the Tog.

[Razvan]

I think he uses the Scepter instead of the 2x Deep Analysis, for a more controlish element.

DA is a great anti-control card, and was good in the mirror match, but it's not that special otherwise. With the large amount of instants in Hulk and Tog decks in general (plus you can Wish for a lot as well), the Scepter could work very well.

[jazzy kat]

Quote (Klep @ Dec. 05 2003,11:52)Perhaps you should ask CrazyCarl, seeing as how he Top-8'ed with it at Waterbury.

I think carl could top eight with T2 goblins so I am not sure if that is a useful suggestion.

[BreathWeapon]

Most people have no clue how to use Scepter effectively, concerning timing and tempo. It is not card disadvantage if played properly. Once you have 4 Mana, this argument is completely irrelevant. You have to think about how this card works inconjunction with Manadrain, and it is in fact very similar to Ophidian.

Here is how it works,

Once you have two blue Manasources, Manadrain an opposing threat and move to your third turn. Use the Manadrain Mana, we will assume its a 2cc threat, to drop a Scepter and Imprint a Fire/Ice or Brainstorm and pass. Your opponent takes his turn, lays down a threat, and then you activate Scepter to regain your "lost" card advantage.

As you can see, under the proper conditions, you don't lose card advantage from a Scepter at all, and you protect your hand vs Duress/Hymn/Unmask.

That is only the conservative method of playing Scepter, you can try much more complex and aggressive moves like Turn 1 Mox+Land=Scepter with Fire/Ice or Manadrain etc to avoid Hand Destruction and all sorts of other cute tricks. Scepter Control vs Non-Scepter Control is pretty much a forced loss IMO, and that says a lot. Try playing with Chalice Keeper against the Chronic or U/r Scepter and see for yourself.

The card disadvantage simply isn't there. If people could stand to build and play a deck centered around Ophidian, which is; twice as slow, dependant on U mana to cast, less versatile, vulnerable to creature removal and could simply be blocked, then you can learn to play with a deck focused on Scepter.

[eddavatar]

The whole thing about Scepter is that it's insane while it starts working, but just flat horrible when it's sitting in your hand when ur down on mana or that you've no instant in hand to imprint.

Therefore, the correct use of scepter is in decks where there's plenty of target while would have enough of a mid-late game to abuse it. Decks like keeper, URphid and scepter control would be more than happy to have a stick in their deck because they're mid-late-game decks.

As i argue, however, the stick has no place in decks like hulk and GAT simply because the tempo is much more important than the slow card advantage that the stick gives. I would choose 3rd-4th turn win over using a stick for 4-5 turns while risking to lose the game to decks that has a better late game. GAT and hulk are designed to win the game earlier than keeper and phid while have enough of permission to stop combo and try to win with your own combo.

The correct way to play the scepter is when you've enough mana to cast it while having enough resources to fend off at least 2 threats at the same time (Be it force, drain, swords, wutever). Therefore. It's really matter of deck style if you should play the stick.

[Milton]

Quote Once you have two blue Manasources, Manadrain an opposing threat and move to your third turn. Use the Manadrain Mana, we will assume its a 2cc threat, to drop a Scepter and Imprint a Fire/Ice or Brainstorm and pass. Your opponent takes his turn, lays down a threat, and then you activate Scepter to regain your "lost" card advantage.

This is a pretty rosy look at the card and how it should work.  The reason why many doubt Scepters ability to work is simple:  If you lose the roll of the dice, you aren't able to play the Scpter until after your opponent has already had two turns.  Two turns of threats that you have to deal with.  That's Lackey's, Duresses, Welders, Man Lands, Standstills, Curiositied Manta Raiders, River Boas, Sui-Chis, Survival of the Fittestsessss.  Agaisnt a good aggro deck they are going to have a turn one play most of the time, and a turn two play all of the time.  

A good example.  Your opening hand is Fetchland, Mox, Wasteland, Scepter, Fire/Ice, Mana Drain and Yag Will.  A great opening hand.  Your opponent plays a first turn Goblin Lackey.  On your turn you draw a Gorilla Shaman.  What do you do?  If you play the first turn Scepter with an imprinted Fire/Ice, he swings with Lackey and you lose.  If you Fire/Ice the Lackey and save the Scepter, then you are very vunerable to his next play.  If you cast your own Shaman, he will bolt it and kill it.  So what do you do?  

It's slow, and you need fast answers to fast threats if you want to stave off aggro and make it to the mid and late game.  Also, lets not forget that many of our most favorite aggro decks are still packing Null Rod, which will really hose Scepter.  In the above example, with the above stated hand, assume your Suicide opponent plays a first turn Ritual, Duress, Null Rod.  This is not an uncommon play!  Even if you have a Force of Will in hand you are still delaying the ability to put Fire/Ice on the Scepter because you have to pitch the Fire/Ice to the Force.

Scepter is by no means a great card yet.  It's not a must have, a must include.  The jury is still out, in my opinion.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote I think carl could top eight with T2 goblins so I am not sure if that is a useful suggestion

But if you know Carl, you know that he tries to not play with sub-optimal cards.  If one of the best players in the format thinks isochron scepter is good, maybe he's on to something

Quote Control vs Non-Scepter Control is pretty much a forced loss IMO

Control mirrors are won two different ways: slow wars of attrition, or a fundamental turn.  Isochron Scepter helps in the former, Intuition, Ancestral Recall, and Yawgmoth's Will help in the latter.  As mentioned previously, sometimes even 2cc during the main phase is enough of a loss of tempo that it loses you the game in a turn or two, because you can't stop your opponent's play.

[Smash]

Scepter is never really that dad. Even if you have no instants in your hand... it can be a good bluff to play it. In most situations, it is a must counter. And eating one of their counterspells is never a bad thing

Scepter is just the nuts.  You can't ignore it.

[Flurp™]

If you play scepter and then your opponent destroys it, it is card disadvantage.  But if you played a scepter unprotected you are either stupid or willing to except risks.  Once it becomes active scepter creates huge card advantage with almost any card on it.

Quote the stick has no place in decks like hulk and GAT simply because the tempo is much more important than the slow card advantage that the stick gives. I would choose 3rd-4th turn win over using a stick for 4-5 turns while risking to lose the game to decks that has a better late game

GAT no longer gets wins 3rd or 4th turn consistantly.  It needs a late game or it will die, it used to be that GAT could just combo out in early game and with by turn 3-4 but that is much more rare now.  Scepter is a good card drawing engin that can save GAT in late game, especally with a SB full of low cc wishable answers.

[BreathWeapon]

Uh Milton, how is getting hit by Lackey once game over? He puts another 1/1 Goblin into play, letting you Fire/Ice two cards? That sounds like some good, so i'll go with option A. If you meant Goblin Vandal, which is like the only sensical scenario I can think of ... then i'd say your right. Null Rod does indeed suck, and thats why you pack 4 FoW and 3 Wish. How many are they going to be MDing? Like two?

Now if i'm mistaken, your still playing Phids ... and your trying to tell me that Scepter isn't better than a Phid in ALL of those scenarios?

I'll tell you what Scepter really is, a 2 cc BOMB that makes Future Sight, Fact or Fiction and Skeletal Scrying look like crap incomparison. Thats just how I see it.

@Scepter in Hulk, it does indeed have a place in the deck. 2x over Deep Analysis is just smart money. Look at the Extended Hulk decks, they are packing Scepter.

[Milton]

Quote Uh Milton, how is getting hit by Lackey once game over? He puts another 1/1 Goblin into play, letting you Fire/Ice two cards? That sounds like some good, so i'll go with option A. If you meant Goblin Vandal, which is like the only sensical scenario I can think of ... then i'd say your right. Null Rod does indeed suck, and thats why you pack 4 FoW and 3 Wish. How many are they going to be MDing? Like two?

I think you might be thinking of a different goblin deck.  Swing with Lackey, put Seige Gang Commander into play using Lackey's ability, play a Mountain and cast Piledriver on your second turn.  Swing on your thrid turn for a bunch.  Look at Ian DeGraf's deck from GenCon that made top eight.

Scepter is very good in the control mirror, but not very good against fast aggro.

[Goblin Headbanger]

If sligh is "dead" where is this God-hand gobbo scenario coming from?  Anyway, I seem to recall reading somewhere that fast aggro can give control decks problems.  That problem is not unique to Scepter control decks, so using it to beat up the Scepter is probably misleading.  Make the Fire/Ice in your example an Orim's Chant, and things look different.  We have sideboards for anti-aggro goodies.

Tog decks with Scepters usually run two in the Deep Analysis slot.  Like DA, it's in the deck for control mirrors where you can't combo off on turn 2-3.  It generates advantage for the long haul in that situation.  When you CAN combo off quickly, the Scepter, like DA, makes yummy Tog Chow.

Control decks play for the long game, so they run Scepter as a three-of or four-of.  Imprint a Fire/Ice or Accumulated Knowledge on a Scepter, at an appropriate time and with counter back-up, and your late game is looking pretty good.

Like most any card, you have to work the Scepter into the deck's plan.  If you don't think it fits, then don't use it.  But, if you use the right number for the deck and build in the right instants for imprinting, the card just rocks.

[blue_negator]

jazzy kat:  GAT is no longer the powerhouse it was with 4x gush, it simply doesn't have the raw power to run people over anymore.  Therefore, you can either try to compensate the loss of gush with sub optimal cards or you change GAT up to make it more controllish with more staying power.  

Flurp:  I completely agree, the scepter lets GAT have a much better mid/late game.  Whereas 4 gush GAT never really needed a mid/late game since it wins so fast and so consistently 1 gush GAT needs to have a mid/late game.

Breathweapon:  Dead on,  if people can work with ophidian they should be able to work with scepter.  Granted you are investing 2 cards instead of one, but scepter > ophidian once it gets going.  There are so many ways to work with the scepter.  First turn land mox scepter with mana drain is some good against something like sui black.  And even with nothing to imprint it's a damn good bluff.  Against a control deck if you don't have any counters in your opening hand you can go first turn land mox scepter.  If your opponent has a fow they will for sure force your scepter (unless they have a disenchante type card in their hand, which is very rare) They simply can't risk you imprinting something broken on it.  So no you basically cast a first turn hymm of tourach for 2 colorless mana.  Also scepter sometimes let you work around stuff like blood moon or mana denial.  It lets you counter/draw cards/deal damage with colorless mana.  

Milton:  It's true that scepter slows you down initially, and sometimes that can be fatal.  However, you don't have to play the scepter early game if you don't think thats the right play.  If you have two blue and a counter spell obviously you are going to hold for a counterspell.  If you are going second you can't stop their initial barrage without a fow anyways.  The only downside of scepter in this case would be that it could be something else better correct?  Well, obviously it's not a good idea to just throw scepter into any deck.  But if you build your deck correctly the scepter usually ends up replacing stuff like deep analysis which won't help you early game anyways.  

I've pretty much had a love hate relationship with scepter so far.  Initially when i read the spoilers i thought scepter was broken, then i thought about it and realized it's not that great.  I threw together a few decks on apprentice with scepter and they didnt' work out that well.  Then i decided to put scepter in URphid and GAT/r and so far i'm loving it.  I think the common misconception is that scepter is broken in itself.  Therefore people build their decks with that mindset.  Well that is a big mistake, scepter doesn't have the raw power of yawgwill, ancestral, timewalk, gush, FoF.  You can't just throw it into a deck and expect it to perform well.  It takes a lot more finesse then that.  Lastly I want to mention that scepter in a deck without power is probably suboptimal.  First turn land mox scepter is SO good.

[BreathWeapon]

@Milton, what stops you from using Fire on the Lackey and Piledriver? I haven't failed to stabilize against Goblins off a 1st turn Scepter with Fire/Ice even if they did go first with Lackey. So long as you FoW the Pillar you should be fine. Eh, whatever suits you tho'. I fail to see how Goblins is the DEATH of Scepter.dec. I guess i'll have to side 2 Cop:Red again if this is true  

Atleast they we can all agree Phid BLOWS

[Flurp™]

Quote You can't just throw it into a deck and expect it to perform well

Yup, the bigest problem scepter has is that it is put into decks without any thought.

[Laertes]

Scepter offers so many possibilites that it attracts many substandard T1 builds.  It is not the fault of scepter that some people use it poorly.  I won't tell you that it is playable (or at least worthy of consideration) in type 1, because if you have denied it this long, then telling you now won't help.

Quote Atleast they we can all agree Phid BLOWS

What?  Phid is among the top 1% of creatures printed.  If 3cc is too much in the current environment, it doesn't mean the snake blows.

[Flurp™]

Well phid is never used anymore because it is too slow.  It has been replaced with scepter in most UrPhid decks.  The only question is:  Without Phids will we have to rename UrPhid?

[BreathWeapon]

Phid is about as applicable in the Jan 1st environment as Jackal Pup. Its outdated, outmoded, outclassed and has NO good matchup other than Chalice Keeper, which will be eclipsed by the Chronic shortly ... and Phid is awful vs Sceptered STP or Fire/Ice. Its not that its CC is unmanigable, its that the delay to activate your draw engine, weakness to critter removal and reliance on the combat phase kill its viability as a Tier 1 choice. U/r Phid is a metagame deck, but U/r Scepter may be more than that given given the time to prove itself.

Nice to see you got your account up and running Jeff.

[Ultima]

@BreathWeapon

Actually, in point to fact, Scepter based control versus Control doesn't mean forced loss.  Control matches are extremely dependent on play skill and drawing.  Regardless of scepters ability, it is still a card that is subject to the dynamics of Magic; it must be played properly.  

Example, my record at Waterbury was 5-2.  I played chalice Keeper(not the same build though) just like Dave(Eastman) and I won all my control mirrors which happened to be Scepter Keeper and Scepter Control everytime, both of which are TMDers as well.  That doesn't mean that i was the superior player or that chalice keeper is superior to scepter, it just means that there is no such thing as forced losses or autolosses.

IMO, scepter can be an amazing card at times, but I don't like it because I have found in testing, that sometimes it forces me into awkward situations and tempo distraction, which are the last things that the control player wants especially in the control match up.\n\n

[Comrade Seraph]

Comparisons of extended Tog to T1 Hulk are not really appropriate since in extended tog is _the_ format defining control deck, and chooses its tools as such. In Type 1, Keeper and Urphid occupy that role, so Hulk takes more aggro-controllish tools.

That being said, I suspect people are trying to shoe-horn scepter into Hulk for the same reasons people were trying to stick AK into pre-Mirrodin keeper - in each case, the modded deck was among the weaker decks of the format and trying to stick in the tech that made its competitors look so good.

Scepter is slow in the aggro matchup- but then again, so is The Abyss. On the other hand it owns the control match-up, and with the demise of Long and continued weakness of aggro, control on control looks to be the new format-defining matchup.

Scepter with fire/ice reads "2 cc: put a half-cost jayemdae tome/icy into play, PLUS, as an alternate use, sweep weenies and serve as a slow win condition".

I cannot think of a more ridiculous late game control card this side of Yawg's Will.

[BreathWeapon]

@Ultima, I agree in full. Auto Win is a little outlandish, we'll chalk that one up to liberal typing  

That said, I prefer to be the guy with the Scepters.

[MTG_Djinn]

@Milton

Quote It's not a must have, a must include

In some decks yes.

@Smash

Quote Scepter is just the nuts.  You can't ignore it.

So true

Here, were I live, the big hit, to but under a Scepter, is Orims Chant and Abeyance. Its not that uncommon that its a game winn. Then its only instants that he will beable to play if you play it in his upkeep.
Orins Chant is so great against aggro and Abeyance is great against control.

-MTG_Djinn

[Grand Inquisitor]

I guess my experience has been quite different from other people.

Quote I'll tell you what Scepter really is, a 2 cc BOMB that makes Future Sight, Fact or Fiction and Skeletal Scrying look like crap in comparison. Thats just how I see it.

@Scepter in Hulk, it does indeed have a place in the deck. 2x over Deep Analysis is just smart money. Look at the Extended Hulk decks, they are packing Scepter.  

For the first comment, I played a game at waterbury where my friend resolved scepter imprinting ancestral recall.  I lost that counterwar, but untapped and cast future sight on my turn.  In spite of him getting two-three activations with ancestral, I still won that game handily.

I have played with scepters in Hulk, but they're certainly not a replacement for Deep Analysis, and I think Hulk really wants to win faster than scepter allows.  Its not a card-advantage engine, so much as utility.  Keeper likes utility, Hulk wants to draw its deck, and then berserk for the win.

Quote Scepter is very good in the control mirror, but not very good against fast aggro.

Milton, our metagames/opponents/playstyles must just be completely different.  For me, scepter has been so much better against aggro, and I often side one or both out against control.  I find land, mox, scepter->stp/fire/ice/mana drain to be a perfectly good play against most aggro.

[Milton]

Quote Scepter is slow in the aggro matchup- but then again, so is The Abyss. On the other hand it owns the control match-up, and with the demise of Long and continued weakness of aggro, control on control looks to be the new format-defining matchup.

Once again, dead on.  If you are facing good aggro that has a very good turn 1 play then Scepter is probabally not as good as other cards.

In my metagame I play against some damn good aggro.  In fact, the notion that aggro is becomming weak is a little curious.  One of the guys I play against placed 7th at Gen Con Worlds with turbo-goblins.  Also, look at the Crazy Con results.  The r/g aggro deck played by Wasp and the b/g/w aggro played by Sam Larson (4 maindeck Deed and 4 maindeck Naturalize, Scepter isn't very good facing that).  Both placed in the top eight.  Sam got second.  Not everyone playing aggro is a scrub, and I have to face those three guys next Sunday at Dreamer's.  Also, Monotone is always packing Welder MUD.  Mask is everywhere.  Hulk is there.

So, as a control player, I ask myself these questions in regards to prison and aggro:

Assuming my opponent goes first:

1) How does my deck deal with a first turn Welder?

2) How does my deck deal with a first turn Lackey?

3) How does my deck deal with a first turn Negator?

4) How does my deck deal with a first turn Illusionary Mask?

After yesterday's tournament I now have to ask myself how my deck deals with a first turn Goblin Recruiter, but that's I@n's deck tech.

After yesterday's round of playtesting, following the small tournament that I played in, I find myself asking:

1) How prominant is Null Rod?  Is Null Rod still an issue?  Will Challice players return to Null Rod after they find Challice to be somewhat dissapointing?  If Null Rod comes back again, as I fully expect it to do, how good is Scepter going to be?

2) Damn, Pernacious Deed is a great card!  It's everywhere in my metagame.  Keeping that in mind, how good is Scepter?

3) How good is Scepter against a Welder MUD lock-down?

In light of my testing, my metagame and my preferences I found Scepter to be seriously lacking.

I will say that most of you have different experiences, different metagames and I'm assuming, based on good faith, that you have equally good reasons for playing the card.  But, testing is everything and I found Scepter seriously lacking against aggro, and I found it to be a win more card against control.

[wollblad]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 05 2003,20:49)Phid is about as applicable in the Jan 1st environment as Jackal Pup. Its outdated, outmoded, outclassed and has NO good matchup other than Chalice Keeper, which will be eclipsed by the Chronic shortly ...

How funny. I posted such a deck 3 or 4 month ago and then it was totally dismissed by more or less everyone. It is actually hard do build a decks with 4 Scepters. You want to pack things such as Fire/Ice, Abeyance or Orim's Chant, but they just always seems to turn up when you don't have the Scepter. Scepters are wonderful as control tools, but I don't think a deck built around it totally around it can be tier one.

[Comrade Seraph]

Milton - With a meta-game full of x4 deed and naturalize, scepter IS sub-optimal - but I'm not sure that is a really generalizable meta.

However - I would point out that the kind of changes having x2-3 scepters make in your deck design are synergetic with 4 of the 5 questions in the 1st set you feel your meta demands - 1st turn negator, welder, lackey and recruiter all eat fire, of the fire/ice squad, quite nicely.

If deed and null rod are giving you problems, main-decking dismantling blow again begins to look like an attractive option... there's not many tier 1/2 decks it is dead against.

[Milton]

Quote However - I would point out that the kind of changes having x2-3 scepters make in your deck design are synergetic with 4 of the 5 questions in the 1st set you feel your meta demands - 1st turn negator, welder, lackey and recruiter all eat fire, of the fire/ice squad, quite nicely.

No, Scepter with Fire/Ice is too slow.  Fire/Ice turn one would be optimal.  Scepter won't usually be active until turn 3, at which time the damage is already done.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  It's slow against aggro.