Recently I was checking the German event coverages on mor...

[Gilberry]

Recently I was checking the German event coverages on morphling and noticed that a new Stompy deck had done well in some of the tournaments. This deck beat several full powered workshop decks and even a few tendrils builds in Eindhoven.

4 Briar Shield
4 Giant Growth
4 Land Grant
4 Rancor
4 Rogue Elephant
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wild Mongrell
2 Blood Lust
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Red Elemental Blast

Lands:

2 Forest
4 Karpsulan Forest
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
 
4 Gorilla Shaman
1 Incinerate
4 Naturalize
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Sylvan Library

Is this deck a viable tournament option? Or is   's favorite deck a better way to go?

[Comrade Seraph]

That's 36/42 spells main deck that roll to Chalice.

Does anyone else see a problem?

[Soujiro The Tenken]

why would u use pyrostatic pillar if all your spells have less than 3 casting cost? unless you plan on just getting a lavamancer into play and killing him wit that...

[Gilberry]

Quote why would u use pyrostatic pillar if all your spells have less than 3 casting cost? unless you plan on just getting a lavamancer into play and killing him wit that...

oh, I wouldn't but apparently Sjoerd Hovens and a few other European players would. This deck is not my idea. It is doing too well in comparison to the way it looks and I'm only wondering is there something in it I can't see.

@Comrade Seraph
Yes, and somehow it can win a game or two (Or the entire Eindhoven tournament, and a similar stompy version got 4th place in Heidelberg)

[g0dzillA]

Presumably Pillar is in there because the deck's builder expected to see a lot of Tendrils in the meta, which of course just roll over to it. Hell, it can get the job done with a single Kird Ape if it needs to at that point.

Being that this build won a major a tournament, and cosidering how janky it looks in some places, my only assumption can be that the builder is either very lucky, or, more likely, had some very intuitive or well-researched meta expectations and won because the deck was heavily teched against that meta. Cards like Pillar in the board, and especially the 4 maindecked REBs make me think this is the likely scenario.

[Necrontyr]

out of curiosity...
would it make sense to run Artifact Mutation instead of naturalize (or some split between the two), and for sake of saying Lotus, Ruby and Emerald deserve slots in a powered build but what else should change in a powered version?

[mouth]

Naturalize hurts Dragon as well as artifacts. The polyvalence, as well as the mana cost, make it superior to Artifact Mutation, although the latter isn't likely to be much of an issue. Maybe if you see lot's of artifacts, but not alot of enchantments.

Land Grant is a bad choice for the deck. It's deck-thinning ability is negligible, and it serves no other purpose beyond filling the yard for the Lavamancers. It was originally used in Stompy as additional pitch to Bounty of the Hunt, but considering the extra damage you could take from Pillar, and the lack of BotH, it may not be necessary.

I've been toying with a Stompy-lock deck, and I think it has some potential, but it's pretty weak right now.

Interesting note: Add Root Maze to the list of Dragon hosers. Game 1 anyways, before you see Deeds and Forces.

[Gaea]

Pirostatic pillar is a good choice for this deck, you0re an aggro deck, so you would'nt mind taking some damages while your opponent takes a lot of damages.

[centroles]

I definately think that a G/R stompy is better than the G/W builds being tooted as the new stompy. So lets work on further tuning this build for a very diverse metagame.

As the G/W version stands, it's extremely weak against Workshop variants, which WILL make up a significant portion of the top 8 in any competitive environment especially now that long is gone. Red sideboard cards like Blood Moon (huge in the post Jan meta), Artifact Mutation (a house against Workshop) and Rack and Ruin will greatly boost this matchup. And there are many other utility spells that red brings with it too... Bolts, Red Elemental Blasts, Shaman etc etc. Naturalize makes for sufficent enchantment hate, lightning bolt is great against most creatures. And sideboard solutions like Tormod's Crypt, Root Maze and other green graveyard hate will help against dragon. The deck will still be vulnerable to chalice, but that can be dealt with artifact hate. Besides, with long gone more and more decks are opting to remove chalice for null rod (except the ones you should have an easy time with like Sui Black).

[Private Pyle]

We should start brainstorming a list of sideboard cards for the deck.  Correctly tuned to the metagame I believe this deck could be a house.  Of course, a lot of these cards could also just be played in the deck if you are really looking to hate something out.  

Naturalize
Artifact Mutation
Gorilla Shaman
Null Rod
Red Elemental Blast
Tormod's Crypt
Rack and Ruin
Hull Breach
Hidden Guerilla's
Blood Moon
Root Maze
Pyrostatic Pillar
Sylvan Library


That is just a start.  Add in with anymore possible sideboard cards and maybe we can get started on this.

[Gilberry]

This deck's biggest problem is chalice of the void. It can't survive a chalice for 1 if the opponent has a FoW, or other counter. Chalice for 1 isn't that though to get into play so this deck would need to be a big surprise in the meta to have success.

Quote Land Grant is a bad choice for the deck.

The Land Grant also acts as a tutor for the Taigas and makes it hard for the opponent to mana screw you. If the opponent does slip a price of progress or blood moon, Land grant gives you the option of tutoring out the forest and hoping for a naturalize, if red mana is needed. Maybe that's why naturalize is included over artifact mutation?

[Moridar]

If this deck wants a real chance the mox monkeys are in the SB and make sure you run a crash or 2 in the side as well.

Wayne

[mouth]

Bloodmoon isn't very rampant at the moment, so I don't think that's the reason. It's simpler than that; Naturalize is polyvalent, while Artifact Mutation isn't. Although Artifact Mutation can Just Win Games™, Naturalize helps in more matchups.

Speaking of Bloodmoon, if you're afraid of seeing it across the table, wouldn't it be better to just use it? Lot's of people in the VF are singing the praises of Bloodmoon in the 2004 meta. Now, doesn't that suggest that a two-colour hate deck with red should be using it?

Anyways, it really comes down to what you expect from your meta. Bloodmoon is good post-board versus Dragon, but only if you can drag the game to a mid and late game, where it makes their Bazaars and Squees dead. For that to work, you need several avenues of hate. Like Elvish Lyrist and Naturalize, for example.

Bloodmoon is also good against Workshop, but it just doesn't hurt them the same way that Mox Monkey and Crash can. If you see Chalice, your best bet is to use Mox Monkey maindeck, with Naturalize and possibly a few Crash sideboard. That is real diversification of cc.

Bloodmoon helps versus Keeper too, and Tog, and basically any deck running 4 colours. However, all these decks will learn to play around Bloodmoon if it does indeed become a large part of the post-2003 meta. Or they already have, such as with Tog's Wish->BEB. Dragon will probably have more enchantment hate, partly because of Bloodmoon and partly because the mirror is likely to happen more often.

So, whatever. If you're going to try and play around Bloodmoon, may as well use it to your advantage. So, Land Grant's aren't all that bad. My main qualm with the deck is that the Green portion gives nothing but little fat.

An opening hand of little green creatures is not what you want to see in the face of Dragon or Neo-Long or TPS or whatever. You'll get rolled. Against Workshop and control however, that's exactly what you want; a fast clock and permanent advantage.

For those reasons, I'd consider Elvish Scrapper, or Scavenger Folk (old sk00l), because they act as a permanent, a threat (however small) and a means of removal and disruption. Same goes for Mox Monkey.

It really is meta dependant.

I'm getting tired of writing, tell we what you think.

[EDIT]: I think that Briar Shield and Blood Lust, especially Blood Lust, are the best targets for replacement. However, Briar Shield is a permanent, while Giant Growth is not, in addition to their other +'s and -'s.

[g0dzillA]

mouth has pretty well summed it up. I agree with most of what he's said. As I said before, I'm pretty certain this deck's recent success in Eindhoven was due a great deal to it being the well-tuned for it's meta.

As for it being a bad matchup against Dragon and TPS/Long, I don't know that it's all that bad. The sideboard was obviously built with these matchups in mind. Specifically, Naturalize for Dragon, and Pyrostatic Pillar for TPS.

Against Workshop, a horde of fat is great for this matchup. The Mox Monkies and Naturalizes in the side don't hurt any either. Rancor is an MVP vs. Smokestacks, as well.

The maindecked REBs would seem to indicate an assumption that there would be a lot of Keeper/Tog to deal with, as it would normally be a sideboard choice. They're also general FoW protection, and serve as an answer to Dragon's Ambassador.

The deck would even seem to have game against other budget decks like Sligh, Fish, and Sui... against Sligh, your creatures are just bigger. Same goes for Fish, whose biggest problem is trampling fat. It's even got Bolts and Lavamancers to answer Sui's Negators.

The underlying point here is this: the deck likely performed as well as it did because, unlike original mono-G Stompy, this deck packs answers to essentially all the upper Tier decks, and has a consistently fast threat base to back it up.

Its biggest concern, as some have mentioned, should be Chalice, but the Mox Monkies and Naturalizes should keep this deck from scooping to an early Chalice set at 1. Furthermore, Chalice is likely to see a lot less play with Long out of the picture.

The deck may be a meta choice, but it would appear to be a pretty solid one if you're going to be facing the current upper Tier decks, in my opinion.

I agree with centroles that this deck is better than its G/w counterpart, but not necessarily with his reasoning. This deck is better because it has a greater diversity of answers to opposing threats than the G/w version, which only really answers Dragon and Trix as far as upper Tier decks are concerned.

As for Workshop becoming suddenly prevalent post Long, I disagree. If anything, Dragon and TPS will be much more common; Workshop has never filled the Top 8's anywhere, and there's no reason that I can see to assume that Long's removal from the metagame should change this significantly.

That's a little off topic though. The point is that the G/r version here could do really well in the new meta.

[Sandster]

A few questions on card choices in this deck:

Why Blood Lust over Fists of the Anvil or even Incinerate?

Why Mongrel over River Boa?  Is the pump ability that much more important than regen and islandwalk?

Why Giant Growth over Seal of Strength?  I understand the surprise factor, but Seal can be tapped to Tangle Wires or sac'd to Smokestacks.  Not only that, but Seal has a pretty big intimidation factor.

I do agree this is better than GW Stompy though.

[g0dzillA]

Lot of good questions. Unfortunately, we'll probably never know for sure, since the deck wasn't built by the topic starter, who appears to be as confused as the rest of us as far as some of the card choices are concerned.

As for Blood Lust vs. Fists - perhaps it was a pre-Mirrodin build? Unless Blood Lust is supposed to double as janky creature removal, I'm unsure as to why it would be used. I was also wondering why the deck is running Briar Shields instead of Bonesplitter... both questions could be answered by that theory.

Mongrel vs. River Boa - Perhaps the regeneration was considered too mana intensive, especially with the splash diluting the green sources? Also, Mongrel can fuel the Lavamancers, which if I had to guess, was the primary motivation for running it.

Giant Growth vs. Seal of Strength - Pretty common argument here. There is something very good to be said for the surprise factor. It allows for much more versatility in attack strategies, and can often turn 1 for 1 trades into 0 for 1 or 1 for 2. The necessity for permanents to appease Tangle Wire and Smokestack should be more than covered by Briar Shield and especially Rancor. As for intimidation factor - knowing you might have a Giant Growth is probably more intimidating than know for sure. I think the benefits of Giant Growth definitely outweigh Seal in this case.

[Thissa]

Quote
As for Blood Lust vs. Fists - perhaps it was a pre-Mirrodin build? Unless Blood Lust is supposed to double as janky creature removal, I'm unsure as to why it would be used.

I think you are thinking of Blood Frenzy... Blood Lust itself seems like a great card versus control because it's a +4/+0 enchant creature, which, against control, could end the game fairly quickly.

I wish River Boa could be run over Wild Mongrel, but it really does appear that without the Mongrel this deck might have a little trouble stocking up on cards in graveyard for the Lavamancer. Without the Mongrel, the only real cards that would help the Lavamancer activate are the Fetchlands, the Land Grants, and the Lightning Bolts. Well, you could also argue for the Briar Shields and Giant Growths, but usually it is wisest to save them, as you can deal more damage by not using the Briar Shields until it is necessary, and it is usually best to save the Giant Growths until you need them. Wild Mongrel does seem to help smooth out the cards in graveyard issue.

Anyway, this deck looks really cool, and it really might bring back Stompy into the metagame. It looks like it has nice matchups versus Fish, control, and it looks like it could definitley survive versus other aggro decks. I can't wait to start testing this hehe... The only real problem it seems is Chalice of the Void.... and Dragon  

[Tripps]

I saw this three-colored version floating around :

//NAME: Untitled Deck
        4 Wooded Foothills
        3 Tropical Island
        3 Taiga
        3 Volcanic Island
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Rancor
        3 Elvish Lyrist
        3 Ghazban Ogre
        3 Skyshroud Elite
        3 Grim Lavamancer
        3 River Boa
        3 Jackal Pup
        3 Kird Ape
        3 Lightning Bolt
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Time Walk
        1 Timetwister
        1 Windfall
        3 Oath of Scholars
        4 Standstill
        1 Ancestral Recall


It doesn't seem to really be that metaed agaisnt anything in the main, except maybe agaisnt control with Oath. The board would probably have a bunch of hosers in it, but the deck doesn't do well against Blood Moon, Chalice hoses it, and  the mana base is kind of shaky. Oh ya, and its an aggro deck.

[Haksaw]

From Thrissa:

Quote The only real problem it seems is Chalice of the Void...

I see a serious problem with Chalice of the Void for 1 and either the FoW for the Naturalize (That you can't Red Elemental Blast), or led by a Sphere of Resistance...yikes.  w/MUD and Stax would eat the aggro nature with better slowdown ability, and leave you with REB in your hand all day.

I think that dealing with the Chalice is KEY to this deck's success, and it needs to be in the form of a RR - destroy target artifact of converted mana cost 2 or less.  Can't be countered. Instant speed...I still see trouble for Stompy in this environment.

[Sandster]

Crumble and Overload don't do anything, but if Gorilla Shaman is in play (which I would definitely MD) then it's fine.

Other choices are: Naturalize (probably MD 2 or 3), Artifact Mutation, Rack and Ruin, Crash, Viridian Shaman/Uktabi Orangutan, Meltdown.  Meltdown is actually pretty good now that I look at it again, though Rack and Ruin is probably better.

But yes, Chalice is a major problem.

[The Master]

[Gilberry]

Chalice does make this deck role over. That is why a R/G stompy should always be played as a surprise against the meta. It's not a deck that can be even tier 2. It can win a tournament if nobody expects to see it. Chalice might be going out of the game after the Long restrictions take effect so a deck like this might have a chance.

[Comrade Seraph]

Some points of clarification:
Blood Lust is not a creature enchantment. It is an R1 instant that reads "target creature gets +4/-4 until end of turn. If this reduces that creatures toughness below 1, the creature's toughness is 1."

You cannot tap enchantments to tanglewire - only creatures, lands and artifacts (it says so on the card). To the best of my knowledge, enchantments can't be tapped.

[Private Pyle]

Has anyone thought of using Quirion Sentinal in a stompy deck?  It seems like it would be very effective in allowing you to drop an addition threat on the second turn.

Is blurred mongoose a possibility?  It is a resilient creature that is tough to deal with once it is in play.

[BreathWeapon]

Has anybody ventured a G/R/W Stompy? Wax/Wane and STP are the hizzouse vs Dragon.

Stompy doesn't roll to Chalice, it just has to MD 4 Gorilla Shaman ... which you should be doing no matter what anyway. 4 Crash in the SB is also very choice. You can even MD Naturalizes to deal with the problem, they also pick up Scepters so it isn't as bad as it might sound.

[mouth]

That's pretty much the gameplan insofar. Shamans, Naturalize and Crash; a healthy diversification of cc to hate out Chalice, and enough artifact removal to strengthen the Scepter and Workshop matchup.

The trick is, while this deck has a good amount of disruption focussed at a large part of the meta, it is still a comparitively weak aggro deck. It can be tricked out to combat nearly any deck, but MaskNaught, TnT and particularly Madness are just better forms of aggro. Bigger creatures, coming out faster, in a much more concentrated fashion.

There's enough artifact and enchantment removal to make the MaskNaught and TnT matchups decent, but any true non-artifact creature based aggro deck will just outmuscle RG hate. Arrogant Wurm doesn't even flinch in the face of a Rogue Elephant, especially when they come out on the same turn, and the Madness player has an active Bazaar. Another reason I'd like to fit in strip effects.

Not to make it sound like all other matchups are favourable, as they're obviously not.

[Haksaw]

Mox Monkey is definitely a solution to Chalice..., but like the rest of the Stompy archetype, with the Chalice matchup it comes down to the coin flip...I play 1st turn Chalice of the Void for 1, or you play Gorilla Shaman.  And if Workshop.dec didn't pull 1 of 4 Chalices, likely they pulled a Sphere of Resistance...

I'd think that the main deck Naturalize would be equally useful against the Dragon matchup, and especially against some nastier high cost artifacts (like Smokestack)

[mouth]

Naturalize maindeck is a meta call, as is REB. Crash is a good response to a first turn Sphere of Resistance, but it can really hurt your early mana development, and is definitely sideboard material.

There must be a proper balance found between disruption and maintaining the aggro mindset. The best way to go about this would be to exploit cards with multiple uses... obviously. Naturalize and Mox Monkey for instance.

Also, my previous qualm about better aggro doesn't really lie with "Their creatures are bigger", but that all the good aggro decks have a strong draw engine. Survival of the Fittest in TnT and Bazaar in Madness, for example. Maybe the better solution lies in hating out that aspect of said decks, while using creature enhancers to trade 1 for 1. Still, the best case scenario isn't that good.

[g0dzillA]

I've been testing this deck with various tweaks to the build over the past couple days, and I keep coming back to the same question: "what makes this deck better than Goblin Sligh?" They both have extreme weaknesses to Chalice, so that point is moot. The only answer I can come up with, then, is that this build has Naturalize, trample, and more than a single color source of damage going for it. On the down side, it's significantly less stable, more succeptible to non-basic hate, is much slower, and has much less direct damage.

Against most matchups, the trample and diverse color sources are irrellevant, or mostly so. The most relevant loss, then, is Naturalize, which can theoretically be made up for with alternate artifact/Dragon hate, since those two points are its primary purpose.

I dunno... my tendency is to say that any meta where this build would be good, a Goblin Sligh build could be tweaked to be just as good if not better. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Thissa]

Quote
Some points of clarification:
Blood Lust is not a creature enchantment. It is an R1 instant that reads "target creature gets +4/-4 until end of turn. If this reduces that creatures toughness below 1, the creature's toughness is 1."

der.... uh... whoops...
....


yeah.... alright. Sorry 'bout that.

Anyway, with that said, I think that the 2x Blood Lust could easily be taken out for 2x River Boa or 2x Naturalize.