First let me say that your primer was a very good read, a...

[cssamerican]

First let me say that your primer was a very good read, and you did a good job explaining the strategy of the deck. As well as informing people of the pros and cons of each color splash. I was wondering why you did not discuss a three color build in your primer? Do you think it is totaly wrong, or do you beleive that it can be successfull? I have a UrwLandstill deck that I have had some success with. My metagame has has Dragon as the only real combo now, a lot of good Aggro, a fair amount of prison, and some control. This is my decklist.

Lands: (25)
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island

Blue: (20)
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection
3 Stifle
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

Gold: (4)
4 Fire/Ice

White: (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts: (7)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Nevinyrral's Disk

Sideboard: (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Serenity
2 Teferi's Response
2 Slice and Dice

The Plows help destroy the fat I see, and they also help against Dragon. In my meta this just seems better to me than the ability to do 3 points of damage to my opponent. I noticed you did not mention Serenity in your primer, but it works very well against artifact and enchantment based decks. I use Slice or Dice in the Keeper match-up as a defence against Decree of Justice since it does not require me to break the Standstill. Do you see ways I can improve my decklist? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Quote One thing to note is that Landstill can only support 2 fetchlands at most. The reasoning is that this deck does not want to thin its mana development in the early game.

This was the only thing in your primer that I disagreed with. It is not that I think your logic is bad, but there has just been enough mathmatical testing to prove the land thinning effect is so small it is not a factor. In my build I have four fetchlands, and it is not like you are going to thin your land 4 times in the first 4 plays. Not to mention, many games I never see all of them anyway.

[Shock Wave]

Quote I was wondering why you did not discuss a three color build in your primer? Do you think it is totaly wrong, or do you beleive that it can be successfull?

It is in the works, and is something I was thinking about but is an issue that has gotten enough attention that I feel it deserves addressing.

The main reason I really dislike 3 colour builds is that I am a strong advocate for a consistent mana base and redundant decks. If I could find all the solutions I wanted in one colour, I would always play mono colour, as would everybody else. The bottom line is this: If you can achieve the desired effects with a 2 colour build, why reinvent the wheel at the cost of a solid mana base?

You may argue that because of cards such as Teferi's Response and Stifle that you can dodge mana disruption, but nothing is more aggravating than getting hosed by your own deck. Consider this: You run 4 permanent white mana sources. That is awfully, awfully low to begin with. Now let's say I remove one of those sources in the early game. You now have 4 cards that require white mana and only 3 ways left to cast them. This is not a trivial issue.

To be honest, I really like your decklist. I think it has a great balance of cards. However, I would much rather run a 2 colour deck and feel safe than risk getting hosed by my 1st draw. To give you an example of how solid my mana base is: I mulliganed once in the last tournament I played in. That's one mulligan in 19 games. In my opinion, that sort of consistency is worth sacrificing the white splash for.

With regards to Serenity, I really feel it is overkill. I can't remember the last time I lost to artifact-based decks. I find that Disk is an adequate hoser and would rather allocate SB slots to what I feel are greater threats (combo decks).

Slice and Dice is great to stop DoJ, but what else is it good for, really? You shouldn't have a problem beating Keeper anyways, right?

Quote This was the only thing in your primer that I disagreed with. It is not that I think your logic is bad, but there has just been enough mathmatical testing to prove the land thinning effect is so small it is not a factor. In my build I have four fetchlands, and it is not like you are going to thin your land 4 times in the first 4 plays. Not to mention, many games I never see all of them anyway.

Well, you're quite correct. Given the way I presented my argument, it is quite lacking from a mathematical approach. However, take the above example concerning your white sources into consideration. If you fetch a Tundra and I waste it, you've lost 2 potential white mana sources as opposed to 1. When you run such a low count of a particular colour source, these mathematical nuances become quite amplified.

Thanks for the compliment and your interest in the primer, and good luck with the deck.

[jhaggs]

Shockwave,

   About damn time!!!  J/K   I have been eagerly waiting for your primer.  I thought it was an excellent read and extremely informative.  I really feel that this deck (barring the obvious) will make a great new addition for the budget players.  You have definitly done laid the groundwork for this deck.  Props.

Okay...enough with the brown-nosing.

I would like to address a couple of things through my experiences playing my scrub version of Landstill.  I have recently decided that Chain of Vapor is just too vaulable not to maindeck.  I will say that i play against several fish builds that utilize Null Rods, so my 4 MD chains maybe a meta thing.  You mentioned in your primer that Chains is great against Sui for the same null rod fear.  But you also said that Misdirection is great against sui.  What do you cut for chains...stifle?

Another reason that I MD chains is for the artifact prison matchup.  Your conclusion about resloving a Disk against this style of deck is dead on.  Busting a disk spells doom for the prison decks.  However, it is crucial to work against the "Lock" as you well know.  Chains is great to bounce back Wire/Sphere/Stack/Welder.  An EOT turn chain usually breaks the lock in order for you to cast the Disk.  

I have regulated misdirection to my SB, in order to MD the Chains.  I realize that SB counters is boderline insanity, however I feel it can be justified for certain matchups.  My biggest fear is to be holding dead cards in my hand with this deck.  When playing WMuD, misdirection is a tough card to use.  Sure it can be pitched but it is pretty much useless in this matchup.  Chains is much better.  The reason that I will side in misdirection is that in counter wars misdirection is a nice weapon to have.  Most times, my opponent never suspects 3 Misdirections being SB for games 2 and 3.

I also have a question:  Why did you decide against a MD mystical tutor?  This can tutor for alot of answers in your deck.  I'm curious as to your ommisson.

Thanks again for primer!!!

[Shock Wave]

Jhaggs: Thanks for the compliments. Click on this link to be forwarded to my most recent Landstill tournament report. I believe reading it will address most of your questions.

Quote Another reason that I MD chains is for the artifact prison matchup.  Your conclusion about resloving a Disk against this style of deck is dead on.  Busting a disk spells doom for the prison decks.  However, it is crucial to work against the "Lock" as you well know.  Chains is great to bounce back Wire/Sphere/Stack/Welder.  An EOT turn chain usually breaks the lock in order for you to cast the Disk.  

While Chain is good to bounce Smokestack, it really doesn't solve the Welder issue. Everytime I play against Workshop decks, I always find myself wishing my Chain was a Bolt. It's not really necessary to bounce anything other than Smokestack. You can out wait the Tangle Wire, counter the Smokestack, and use removal for the Welders. I've followed this strategy for many games against welder.dec and have been seldom unsuccessful.

Quote Why did you decide against a MD mystical tutor?  This can tutor for alot of answers in your deck

Mystical Tutor is pretty awful. Mystical Tutor for anything other than Ancestral Recall is, again, awful. For example, Mystical for Fire/Ice? Who does that? lol. Mystical for Chain of Vapor? That's some serious card disadvantage. Mystical for Teferi's Response? There goes your surprise factor.

The question is whether or not there is an ample number of targets for the tutor, but rather are there enough valuable targets? I would say no. Time Walk and Ancestral Recall are not enough.

[cssamerican]

Quote (Shock Wave @ Dec. 11 2003,13:59)The main reason I really dislike 3 colour builds is that I am a strong advocate for a consistent mana base and redundant decks. If I could find all the solutions I wanted in one colour, I would always play mono colour, as would everybody else. The bottom line is this: If you can achieve the desired effects with a 2 colour build, why reinvent the wheel at the cost of a solid mana base?

I totally agree with this statement; however, in my metgame the most dominate type of deck is Aggro. It is either fat Aggro like Dreadnaughts(I also play Ninja Mask), Tubbies, and Wurms, or it is pain in the ass Aggro like River Boa. And because of this Lightning Bolt wasn't cutting it, the Disk could be too slow at times, and some creatures just do not want to die. Chain of Vapor was a thought, but in most cases it would probably just delay the problems, and if I could not answer the problem the next turn it would still be there. So, I splashed white to get Swords of Plowshares because in my meta it is more important to have great removal and a 3 color mana base, than a 2 color mana base and decent removal.

Quote (Shock Wave @ Dec. 11 2003,13:59)Consider this: You run 4 permanent white mana sources. That is awfully, awfully low to begin with. Now let's say I remove one of those sources in the early game. You now have 4 cards that require white mana and only 3 ways left to cast them. This is not a trivial issue.

True, but I got 6-7 way to get one in play.(6 if I already used a fetchland to put the first one in play) I am not going to say I have never had a card that I wanted to cast that I didn't have the proper mana to play it, because that would be a lie. What I will say is that in most situations it really hasn't been a problem.

Quote (Shock Wave @ Dec. 11 2003,13:59)With regards to Serenity, I really feel it is overkill. I can't remember the last time I lost to artifact-based decks. I find that Disk is an adequate hoser and would rather allocate SB slots to what I feel are greater threats (combo decks).

Slice and Dice is great to stop DoJ, but what else is it good for, really? You shouldn't have a problem beating Keeper anyways, right?

Like I said the only combo decks I have in my meta at the current time are Dragon, so my sideboard is dedicated to improving the match-ups I do have, even if they were in my favor to begin with:) I guess you could say my decklist and sideboard are metagamed to dominate my meta, and the list you gave in your primer is more for a general metagame at X tournament. Either way you better prepare a section in the primer for the mirror match, because combo is declining and this deck has the ability to crush everything else:)

And thanks again for the Primer.

Edited: for Grammar

[BreathWeapon]

@ Cssamerican, I play in almost an identicle meta to the one you have described, and I came to the same conclusions as you concerning the 3 color build. In fact, my deck is almost identical with the exception of -3 MisD for the full set of Fearie Conclaves and Stifles with a Balance thrown in, I hate MisD. I think I might have used an Island or 5th Fetch instead of the Lotus Petal to.

I think that in a broader meta, you'll find the Tormod's Crypts really unnecessary vs Dragon. I can't tell you how good Chalice of the Void is for a control deck that doesn't use a host of Moxen. The deck's extreme Manadenial aspects after sideboard is pretty grotesque.

Serenity is a cute idea, I used R&R myself. I'll have to give that a whirl.

[jhaggs]

cssamerican,

   I have never run white in landstill but have you considered enlightened tutor to act as a 5th disk or 5th standstill?

Shockwave,

Quote Mystical Tutor is pretty awful. Mystical Tutor for anything other than Ancestral Recall is, again, awful. For example, Mystical for Fire/Ice? Who does that? lol. Mystical for Chain of Vapor? That's some serious card disadvantage. Mystical for Teferi's Response? There goes your surprise factor.

The question is whether or not there is an ample number of targets for the tutor, but rather are there enough valuable targets? I would say no. Time Walk and Ancestral Recall are not enough.

I see your point.  As mentioned before, I see a lot of fish and other types of aggro.  I have tutored for fire/ice when necessary to stop an early rush, or if I see a mask drop that I can't counter.   The fire/ice has been a valuable "timewalk" like effect...but the overall tempo is poor.  Consider it dropped.

Thanks for your tourny report.  That helped alot.  I was glad to see the MB chains   Also, the chalice in the SB was new as well.  I honestly never really considered them since I run 5 strips.  I do have several questions in regards to the tournament.  In my meta, wastelands are becoming more and more prevelant (it's a little slow).  This has caused me to consider MD Teferie's responses, which is something that I don't currently run.  During your experience, has Response ever been a dead card in your hand?  Or do you find that you will always have an eventual target?  Is it the most favorable card to pitch (over something like fire/ice).  Do you find that you cast Response against strips or against spells?

[CharlesXavier]

For budget, how important do you think the Mana Drains are? Is it worth building Landstill without them? I can imagine them helping a lot, especially with 4 Disks in most builds. What would be a good replacement, just Counterspell?

[cssamerican]

BreathWeapon: I actually like Misdirection, it is the bomb against Suicide and Sligh, and it can be a huge help against other control decks. But I will agree it is meta dependent. Beleive it or not I do not like Balance. Most if not all times, I have more lands on the table and more cards in my hand than my opponent. The only time it is ever worth casting in my experience is when I am losing. Maybe I have had bad luck with it but it is very situational, and I alway have it in the wrong situation and never in the right one.

jhaggs: I never really thought about Enlightened Tutor, but that means you would have to cut something, and there is nothing I want to cut. Plus this is something I never felt I needed. Maybe because Standstill and the Disk are game breaking, and you never have any trouble getting a gamebreaking spell. Also you already have 5 Standstills, it is called Ancestral Recall.{Sarcasm}
  
CharlesXavier: There would be instants especially against Workshop Decks where not having Drains would be huge. As far as the best budget replacement I am not sure, Shockwave would probably the best person to answer that question.

[Le_Ptit_Poula]

I must say I really loved shockwave's primer, I just hope he will be there for the next tournament. Sadly I'l be playing his deck with different colors. ( Sometimes you got the wrong duals at the wrong time :/ )

[jhaggs]

Quote Also you already have 5 Standstills, it is called Ancestral Recall.{Sarcasm}

Your post made me feel like I just got picked off first base.  

Charlesxavier...You can't really ever replace manadrain.  The game tempo it can generate is pretty disgusting at times.  Fortunatly, Landstill doesn't have a lot of of drain targets.  While mana drain does help cast the disk much quicker, it dosen't really contain many other cards that can really abuse it (i.e. cunning wish).  I think counterspell would be the best choice as a replacement.

[Willforce]

Quote (cssamerican @ Dec. 11 2003,11:13)This is my decklist.

Lands: (25)
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island

Blue: (20)
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection
3 Stifle
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

Gold: (4)
4 Fire/Ice

White: (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts: (7)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Nevinyrral's Disk

Sideboard: (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Serenity
2 Teferi's Response
2 Slice and Dice

Hello,
when i saw this topic...i sayd...NOW a primer about landstill???

we (in italy) play landstill 2 years ago...and reading this list i have suddenly recognize an old list...

 
MAIN DECK
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Morphling
2 Sword to Plowshares
3 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Powder Keg
1 Balance
1 Trade Routes


SIDEBOARD
1 Powder Keg
1 The Abyss
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Hydroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismanting Blow
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Misdirection
4 Duress
1 Smother


this list is more flexible than your, the presence of trade routes (that save your mishra's) moves out the conclaves, it draws a lot more than your, and have the morph to go in turbo morpho mode, it doesn't have a lot of the same card (4 f\i or 4 stp) but cunning to have the right card in your hand...the side is for an hold meta...

the presence of black gives u what u need in the moment u want, and the yag win oppurtunity....

[Moxlotus]

@Willforce. How do you deal with artifact decks?  Without Disk, you have no way to clear out their entire board in 1 shot.

Also, how do you deal with any kind of aggro? 2 Kegs wouldn't cut it I wouldn't think. Aggro isn't a good matchup for Shockwave's deck even with 4 disk, 4 F/I and 4 Bolt.

you have:2 plow, 2 keg, 1 balance, 1 StP in board to wish for
That doesn't seem like nearly enough.

F/I is a HOUSE in this deck. It taps lands against keeper, cleans up against goblins, and picks off welders.

[Hi-Val]

Nothing much else to add other than compliments on an excellent primer! Landstill is my little pet deck that loves every metagame and runs 5 Ancestral Recalls.

And F/I got that much better by pointing out Icing Mana Drain lands.

[Shock Wave]

Quote we (in italy) play landstill 2 years ago

That's about as long as I've been working on this deck.

Perhaps you should open a new thread if you want to discuss your decklist, which seems to have some severe shortcomings.

[Willforce]

Quote (Moxlotus @ Dec. 11 2003,21:41)@Willforce. How do you deal with artifact decks?  Without Disk, you have no way to clear out their entire board in 1 shot.

Also, how do you deal with any kind of aggro? 2 Kegs wouldn't cut it I wouldn't think. Aggro isn't a good matchup for Shockwave's deck even with 4 disk, 4 F/I and 4 Bolt.

you have:2 plow, 2 keg, 1 balance, 1 StP in board to wish for
That doesn't seem like nearly enough.

F/I is a HOUSE in this deck. It taps lands against keeper, cleans up against goblins, and picks off welders.

i sayed this list is old so the side is obselete...
i think that with little changes it can be better that than the first u\r\w

4 f\i
4 stp
4 nevy
=
12 wood against non aggro deck

in your list infact   against stacks u have some dead cards, and u need a lot of mana (and just 1 mox...so a smaller number of permanents) to cast the nevynirall that is the only card that can help you an to wait a turn...

then u suffer a lot more blood moon without the monoisland maindeck.

u don't play twister...twister + trade routes are a very simple draw engine in the middle game the useless land u draw magically becames a card usefull just for 1 mana, and regives you your mishra destroyed...

without trade routes landstill can't explain is shocking  safety...is a rock...my finisher are sure they still live forever.

Against aggro like goblin or similiar u have 2 powder keg...and a lot of way to get it, u have cunning wish and more mana than urw version to go for an instat reply...and lasta but not least mishra's factories that are a wall

[cssamerican]

Willforce:The only cards in the decklist I posted that are "dead" in the Stax match-up are Misdirection (And they are not totally dead, last time I checked you could misdirect an Ancestral Recall). You have Stifle which can cause problems with  their Wastelands. You have Force of Will that can counter a key spell. You have Standstill that can give you insane card advantage, and you have the Disk that if it resloves you will probably win. When I play against Stax I usally side in Serenity in the place of Misdirection, that means I have basically 3 additional Disk that only cost 1{W}. So I would say this decklist is quit strong against Stax pre and post sideboard.
Bloodmoon does suck, but I do not see it often. And when I do it is usally in an Aggro deck, so casting the Disk is not a problem, and the Disk takes care of Bloodmoon. If my meta started using Bloodmoon more often I would actually consider replacing a Tundra with a Plains, that way I could cast Serenity under Bloodmoon. Or I would have and Island and start packing Chain of Vapor, either way if it became a problem, or if I expected to see a lot of Bloodmoons I would make a change.
I don't play Timetwister because I do not want to give a new hand to anyone, especially Dragon. And I do not play Trade Routes because it is not very synergetic with the Disk, and the Disk is what makes Landstill work. So when I selected cards to go in my deck I tried to make sure whatever I selected fit well into the Disk strategy. And it is not like the deck does not have land protection. Look at some of the spell in the list Mana Drain, Force of Will, Misdirecton, and Teferi's Response all protect your land from spells like Sinkhole. Sifle and Teferi's Response can protect your land from Wastelands.
When I look at your list it reminds me more of a Keeper deck with lands that kill, so in some respects I think you might be comparing apples to oranges. It is obvious when I compare the two decks that they play completely different, and this might be affecting your veiw of the deck list I presented. These deck might be both called Landstill, but they are not even close to the same deck in my opinion.

Edited:
Breathweapon: I read your post in the Vintage forum...

Quote I disagree with the presence of Lightning Bolt in this deck and so do others. I disagree that Red is the optimal splash for the broader metagame and so do others.

I have to disagree with this, red is the best splash in any meta that is not riddled with fat Aggro. White is only a good splash if you plan on seeing a lot of Dreadnaughts or River Boa based decks. As far as Lighning Bolt goes I think even Shockwave feels that at times other cards are better such as Chain of Vapor, but in general it is the best in the two colors. I am sure everyone who play Landstill would love if there was a spell that was to cast, and it said remove traget permanent from the game, I know I would.

[Willforce]

land mox (or workshop): sphere if u are without Fow u loose the game....i think this is not a good list against stacks

[jhaggs]

cssamerican,

   I was looking at your build again and I was wondering if you could comment on two things.  First, the missing conclave.  I realize that your build is tight and that you have decided to max out with swords.  My concern is this, without running any teferie's responses, have you felt that your 7 threats are too light?  Have you ever been wishing for that extra conclave?  My second concern is more general.  What is you opinion about running mox pearl and mox ruby?  I've been mulling this one over for several reasons:  They enable a faster standstill drop and they could be an extra source of mana if you are hit with an early strip.  Thoughts?

[Shock Wave]

Quote land mox (or workshop): sphere if u are without Fow u loose the game

That couldn't be more false. First of all, if I have FOW in hand and my opponent plays a 1st turn Sphere, I'll let it resolve. Not only will I fry his mana base and counter his next important threat, but I only need to get to 3 mana before I'm ready to either cast Standstill or Drain into a Disk.\n\n

[cssamerican]

jhaggs: In most cases you do not attack early, you set up to control the game. Once you have control of the game, and you have the resources to back up your attack, then you start swinging for the kill. I am sure you know this, but I think a lot of people are overlooking that. Early in the game Faerie Conclave is the weakest land in the deck, if played turn 2 it does not allow you to play Standstill, Fire/Ice, Mana Drain, or Teferi's Response. If played turn 1 you can't play Stifle, or at least bluff that you can possibly play Stifle. Misha's Factories do not have as bad of a drawback because if you play them turn 2 they still alow you to cast the Standstill, Fire/Ice, or Teferi's Response on that turn. The other color lands are better to have in the early game, especially in a 3 color build where color access is very important. I do not feel light on threats simply because usally when I am in a position to attack I have multiple man-lands on the table. I have to admit I have never wished for the fourth Faerie Conclave. As far as the moxes goes, to fit them you have to cut land. That would be okay except that when you pop a Disk you are gonna wish you had more lands so you could activate the man-lands and have mana open to protect them as well. I do not think a small speed burst is worth affecting your long term game, unless that speed burst can give you a Mana Drain turn 1.

Edited: For Grammar

[jhaggs]

Quote Early in the game Faerie Conclave is the weakest land in the deck, if played turn 2 it does not allow you to play Standstill, Fire/Ice, Mana Drain, or Teferi's Response.

Thanks for the response.  My questions were actually linked together because I have tought about cutting a conclave for mox ruby (i'm just running 2 colors).  My major concern was that I frequently see 5 strips in my meta.  Since you run 7 manlands as your kill with no Responses to protect them, I was afraid that the threat count was just too low.  However, it seems as if you have had sucess with it.  

I realize that "perms are bad" when running disk.  Moxen will inevitably (sp) get destroyed but I would like to have a higher percentage of a more explosive start with the extra mox.  Since this is a control deck, my theory is that I can gain better control through a faster start.  Sure moxen in the grave late game isn't as good as having more lands out, but against some aggro in my meta, I feel that I faster start will ensure a better chance to see a "later" game espically if I can cast standstill/disk a round faster.

I will test out the 3 conclave plan and add a ruby.