Well, I've been watching the format develop for some ...

[Jakedasnake]

Well, I've been watching the format develop for some time now, and I've been very surprised that Pernicious Deed hasn't been used. It's a natural fit in Keeper, which runs a very low permanent count, and has all the tools to reach into the late game. Of course, there are some cons:

-Turning the mana base 5 colors
-More Wastelands are being used, and the addition of a fifth color weakens the matchups against the decks that do run it.
-Pernicious Deed is mana intensive, including two colors that aren't primary in the deck
-Most builds that run Pernicious Deed have 3-4 of Tropical Island and Underground Sea. Keeper doesn't have this luxury

Of course, there are many strengths. It greatly improves the matchup against Workshop.dec. Getting into 3-5 mana range can definitely be crippling to the opponent. This isn't extremely difficult to do with 4 Force of Will to counter the very early lock components, and Wastelands to stop the Workshops from staying active. 4 Mana Drain allow Keeper to accelerate into an early Deed.

Against Spoils Mask, which will definitely be good in the future Metagame, a Pernicious Deed is DEVESTATING. Destroying both pieces of the combo for a 5 mana investment over 2 turns is excellent, especially when the go all or nothing with Spoils.

Against Dragon the card isn't so excellent, but it definitely has its uses, and I wouldn't side it out. A resolved Deed means you can sweep the opponent of their moxen(yours as well, but they aren't as important) which means they need a couple more turns to win. Also, when they go infinite, you can remove the enchantment, causing them to burn. This is especially good as it can act as Swords 3-5.

Against opposing Keeper, most of which will run Scepters now that they have proved themselves, Pernicious Deed can hurt their Imprint Investment, netting you some fine advantage.

Against Hulk the effect isn't so spectacular, but that is to be expected. The deck is basically meant to handle Pernicious Deed in its own.

Also, agianst Phid it's pretty junk. Playing Phid the Deeds come out, and the island comes in while the Tropical goes out.

Of course, Pernicious Deed is a house against almost all forms of aggro. This includes Neo-TNT, which will lose Survival, any resolved Blood Moon (if Deed can come down) and all their fattys.

The effects (other than your mana base) are very slim for Keeper. The only cards that would be destroyed would be Moxes and Shamans. You'd only play Decree when you're about to win, so it's a non-factor here.

Basically, my ideal is that they replace Chalice, which decks have already braced themselves against.

Another card that I'm definitely considering maindeck is Stifle, which is good against almost every deck.

My list (in the makings)

Draw/Search
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cunning Wish

Removal/Disruption
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Stifle

Win/Other
2 Decree of Justice
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Future Sight
1 Time Walk

Mana Base:
7 SoloMoxen
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 City of Brass

The mana base is hard to work with, especially since Ur Phid is back. Most likely an Island needs to come back in, and Tolarian Academy is definitely missed. Thoughts on this are much appreciated.

Stifle is a house, it just does so much. It kills Dragons ability to set up, it stops the imprinting of stuff on Scepter, kills fetchlands, and stops your own lands from getting Wasted. It's so versatile.

I cut a Gorilla Shaman because Pernicious Deed does a lot of work, and the Shaman always dies in a Deed blowing. Future Sight came back, the card is just so game sealing that I kept on missing it. With Chalices gone, I have much more space for draw, so Fact or Fiction was able to come back.

The sideboard is something like this:

1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Disenchant
2 Stifle (I love this)
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Island (too techy? Against Phid the Deeds are sided out, so I feel that having an Island would definitely help the matchup)
1 Balance
1 Open Slot

The board needs work, but focusing it around Pernicious Deed in the maindeck makes some choices harder.

I would definitely like thoughts.

[BreathWeapon]

If I wanted to play a Control deck that MD Deed, why wouldn't I play Tog?

[Jakedasnake]

Swords to Plowshares, the ability to run a more effective win condition that doesn't require basing the deck around itself, and 5 strip effects.

Tog would have a hard time running 5 colors, because it is heavy in black already, and splashing white with 24-25 mana sources would be very difficult.

Keeper can manage Pernicious Deed just as well, and with open slots for Stifle that are just excellent in the current metagame.

I believe that Keeper is probably the only deck that can handle running 5 colors while keeping a full set of strip effects and a Shaman. Keeper also has some deep search effects in Impulse and Fact or Fiction.

Those were just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head. There are probably a bunch of reasons it could be better in Tog. It basically comes down to play style and availability. Keeper is more flexible, and white is a pretty strong color because of Swords to Plowshares and Decree of Justice. Keeper almost always has more open slots as well, because it doesn't have to devote as many slots to card drawing as Psychatog does, because the win condition in Tog is obviously the cards in the grave and cards in hand. Keeper needs none of these to win.

[Comrade Seraph]

I really want to like it. Heck, I've got four deeds gathering dust, and a tropical island doing the same... and I'm always intrigued by builds of keeper that go against the current, emm, current. Deed is amazing, for all the reasons you listed...

But can you really justify building a mana-base this fragile in a meta where everyone is running 5 strips? Where for an idealized Mud matchup you actually want to see red (rack), white (swords) *and* green and black mana (deed) early? From just 4 fetches?

Wouldn't the simplest direction to take this deck be to cut red entirely? We lose REB, shaman and rack, which hurts- but deed is a pretty heavy anti-artifact replacement. and there's some serious gains. We get massively greater stability, and different game-breakers - regrowth and sylvan (considering FS), deed count upped to 4, and maybe some more radical changes - stifle x4 main deck?? 2nd FS?

Thoughts?

[Jakedasnake]

My thinking was that having 2 Stifle maindeck would cut down on the amount of lands I get destroyed, or at least do more damage than I take.

I'm not so sure about cutting red entirely, so many matchups are hurt. I would much rather abandon green altogether.

However, I don't find the mana base to be too weak. I could always go down to four strip effects and add another city, or go to 27 lands. Overall, I don't think the mana base is to horrible, and I believe there are ways to improve its stability.

[Maxx Matt]

the problem with the mana base isn't in is efficiencyduring  early game playing options, but only during th emiddle game, when Color screw is your worst enemy.
Keeper topdeck not so well if you didn' sac Fetchs for thinning the deck, but on the other hand, if you fetch a lot, can't prevent you from the color screw with this 5 color mana base.
So in the middle game drawing in off color spells doesn't help you a lot, otherwise Seals the game for the opponent...


If you cut the Red you'll began to  lose ReB and Consequently lose too much to Ur-Phid and BtB decks that shold be a nice option during the Post restriction metagame.
Duress even if trade spell OneToOne as ReB does, don't provide you an effective way to get rid of topdeked BluGoodies or nasty Blu Creatures.

Green for 3 maindeck cards and without great side options don't seems to me a good choice, even if I don't want to convice you to drop this idea without more testing...

[pernicious dude]

Consider Disk.
Is the one mana/ one turn difference worth hosing your manabase?

[BreathWeapon]

I agree that Pernicious Deed is awesome in the new environment, I play 4 in Hulk split between MD and SB, but Keeper just isn't built for its use. A 5 Color Manabase is asking for it in an environment that is geared towards Bloodmoon AND Stifle come Jan 1st.

If you want to play a control deck with mass board removal your going to have a hell of a time justify this deck over Landstill ... which is just better at its job.

[Jakedasnake]

I've basically come to the same conclusion. Pernicious Deed is a house, and I really think a Keeper-esque deck could use it effectively, but a 5 color mana base is probably out of the question.

Maybe dropping red and upping Stifle to 4 like previously mentioned?

[Comrade Seraph]

I'd love to get a PbP log of Cox Keeper vs. the Chronic... can't run apprentice myself. You two up for it?

[Jakedasnake]

My computer hates me, and I can NEVER download stuff, which is really freaking me out. I seriously want to cry. But hey, Christmas? Computer? Maybe?

If somebody wants to try, I would definitely suggest removing the 2 Impulse for a 5 fetch land and another Stifle, it's been working better that way.

Somebody, please? Try?

[Toad]

Quote (Jakedasnake @ Dec. 10 2003,04:03)Maybe dropping red

Rack and Ruin + Gorilla Shaman + Red Elemental Blast > Pernicious Deed.
Keep red, drop Green. You don't need Pernicious Deed when you already have Swords to Plowshares, Fire/Ice, Gorilla Shaman and Balance maindeck, and when your Cunning Wishes can give you artifact, creature or enchantment removal.

[Jakedasnake]

@Toad

Quote I'm not so sure about cutting red entirely, so many matchups are hurt. I would much rather abandon green altogether.

I completely agree, that's why I said it a while back. The deck I was alluding to would be something with 4 Stifle, more of a Land destruction deck, but vaguely Keeper-esque. I was in no way saying this form of Keeper should drop red.

Anybody with Apprentice/MWS want to test this out? I'm swamped with school work.

[BuboniC]

I think you may be overlooking GAT, in the waterbury tournament there were 4 of them there and 2 made T8. I know you may be building Keeper, but GAT is still very offensive, and has the same control backround, if not better. I would suggest this the most. Also: no Chalice SB? don't you think it would be better than 4 Red Elemental Blast? so something like -3 REB's, and +3 Chalice, and keep the REB for cunning wish? Chalice for 2= Hoser of Dragon, expecaily with further counter disruption for the necromancy.

[Jakedasnake]

Does anybody have time to MWS this deck?

[Ultima]

I have tried a similar version of Keeper to this before a while ago.  After playing deed in Keeper, I found that it is has no place in Keeper.

The reasons for that is
1. Keeper's optimal win conditions have very bad synergy with deed.

2 Keeper's manabase while looking still stable, becomes way more prone to color screw

3. Lots of times, deed tends to be too slow for Keeper's reactive control stance and mana denial strategy.  For example, I tended to say to myself while holding the deed, that i wish it was a shaman or another wasteland.

4. I felt after testing that Keeper really doesn't want game to get to the point where deed is necassary and I'd rather dedicate more slots to early game control then the late game because Keeper needs to survive the early game more so and if more slots are dedicated to this, then by late game you still have enough answers that lets you maintain control.

[Smash]

I would drop white before red. A lot of what you lose with white you can pick up with green (naturalize, etc.) You lose decree and STP, but both can be replaced with other stuff out there.

I still think normal keeper colorors or even u/r can do just fine in a varied metagame. Deed isn't THAT amazing in t1 imho.

[Jakedasnake]

I agree. This was just a thought I was throwing out, I had done no real testing.

The main reason is that I just despise Scepter, the card drives me crazy, and I really don't want to play it. Now that Chalice has taken its effect, and now that people have a more diverse mana base, it just doesn't warrent a main deck slot.

Red is definitely one of the stronger colors as of now, it shouldn't be dropped unless you really have something to replace it with.