Magic is an amazing game, its fun to play, has challengin...

[Cyber_Sophist]

Magic is an amazing game, its fun to play, has challenging strategy, and with so many different cards, has a near infinite possibility for innovation and imagination. However, even though Mensa awarded it the “top five mind games” award in 1994, putting it level strategy wise with well known, largely accepted games like chess, it is largely unknown to most of the world compared to such ubiquitous games as checkers, go, or chess.
Well I feel there are a number of different reasons for this, such as price, the constant change created by new sets, the fantasy pictures, the limited time the game has existed, and so forth, the largest by far is the negative stigma attached with the game.
Everyone who has ever played magic and is over the age of seven has dealt with it. The Idea held by pretty much everyone who has heard of the game that it is “one of those D&D games” played by little kids and smelly, obese, 40 year olds who live with their parents.
I was just curious if all of you had any ideas on how to combat this and maybe give magic more of the respect that it deserves.

[Smmenen]

Change the age group.  It is a well known fact that things enjoyed by children and teenagers are not respected. ™: Cartoons, comic books, video games, music, etc.  

If the average age of the magic player became, oh, 25, I think you'd find magic to be a far more respected game.  

I think the tournament scene reflects a larger age group - most players I know are college age or older.  I have always maintained that magic is not really a game for kids.  If Wizards actually marketed the game as something for adults, I think they would be wildly successful.  

Steve

[Lord_Drazinus]

The first time I went to a Big T1 tourney, I was a little surprised at the amount of people who appeared to be older than say, 16, 17, 18. Of course, by big I mean a small weekly tourney at a local store, but its all relative I guess. The fact that most people think that fantasy games such as Magic are only played by younger kids and people like The Comic Book Guy from The Simpson's is, unfortunately, wide spread. An example is my Grandmother had died, and I saw some Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, etc who I hadn't seen in a while. I was hanging out with some cousins and they asked if I have any hobbies, so I told them that I play Magic, and they just plain out said "Isn't that a game that only smell nerds and geeks play?". Well, I took offense to that because I have never met anyone that plays Magic, and smells at times when you shouldn't(i.e. after a day of paintballing in 90 degree wheather, Old Spice is my best friend). On the fact of marketing the game for a generally older crowd: I sitll say the best place evar is a place that was part strip club, part Paintball Pro Shop, part Gaming Store, and part Wendy's.  

Hope you liked my $0.02
~Draz~

[frimble]

I would say that Magic's lack of popularity would be due to its fantasy theme.  Many people are turned off too quickly by what they expect it MIGHT be -- another form of D&D -- which is, off course, evil and satanic   Most things that the "christian groups" deem evil don't make it to the mainstream of acceptability as all things magic are of the devil.  MTG is doing a great job after only 10 years to infiltrate out of the comic geek/D&D freak world  into the real world.  

To contrast chess with MTG:
Chess has also been around a really long time (MTG: 10 years).  
Most people know chess is a difficult game to master so it gets a more serious look-see.(MTG: looks like a silly bunch of cards)  
There's only 6 types of pieces so it's a very simple game -- just not easy.(MTG 6000+ and counting.)  
Chess also doesn't have the "luck factor" that makes it an "even playing-field", so to speak.  
Thus, it man on man, every game.(MTG: can get "God hands" which require much less skill.)
Chess is deemed wholesome as even grandpa plays it with the grandkids.(maybe MTG will change as the 20s-30s year old who have grown up with the game start making families.  But since Magic is a geek game, no girls for us.) Lucky for me my wife tolerates it.
There are publicly supported chess clubs.(School systems seem to have put a kabosh on MTG-like card games.)

If people could get past the reputation/association thing (what will my other friends think of me), then I think more would enjoy playing it.

[Sandster]

A few more things about chess:

Chess, unlike magic, requires almost no money to play.

A person's skill in chess is just that: hundreds of invested hours of skill.  Magic, on the other hand, requires some skill but also a pretty fat wallet (or rich friends).  While some time and skill is mandatory to be successful at magic, a load of cash helps the process.  As such, every game of chess is even, whereas Magic most definitely is not.

Chess is seen as an "intellectual sport".  Magic is compared to Pokemon.  Big difference.

[Jakedasnake]

A cheap chess set costs $10, a competetive Type 1 deck costs $2000+. I think this narrows down the field somewhat. Type 2 and Extended are also high investment in the longer run.

[Falc]

This is an interesting topic.  You raise two basic questions: Why isn't Magic as popular as Chess and why is there is a stigma attached to Magic players.

The reason for Magic's lack of widespread popularity is because of the nature of the game.  First is the price.  How many Chess sets do you have to buy to get a Queen?  Obviously one.  You buy one set and play with it forever.  It never needs added to or revising.  Everything you need is right there.  Magic is a recurring expense.  The more you play, the more it costs.  Second is the complexity.  Yes, Chess is a complex game, but it's nothing compared to Magic.  Magic is the most complex game in the world.  Every rule can be broken.  Every card is itself a rules addendum.  

Because of the complexity and it's collectable nature, Magic requires a significant investment of both time and money just to learn how to play the game.  Young kids don't have the money to spend, and older kids don't have the time to spend.  Most teenagers spend their time at school, practice, eating, watching TV, and doing homework.  When the weekend comes, those kids go to parties and go on dates.  This leads to the second problem, the stigma.  Who doesn't go to parties or go on dates?  Geeks.  Geeks are really the only people with enough money and free time to learn and play Magic.

You can say that the stigma is undeserving, but it's honestly not.  If you've ever been to a big tourney, I mean a really big tourney like Ohio Regionals (800+), the vast majority of the room is full of the greasiest, smelliest, geeks in the area.  No one has any social skills and the whole thing is quite awkward unless you have a pack of friends to hang with.

This all begs the question.. Will Magic ever break free of these bonds holding it back?  The answer is no.  It won't.  The fact is that when players reach the age of about 25, they can't afford to put in the time required to play Magic anymore.  When you've got a job, a wife, and 2.3 children, you can't go down to the Store on Friday night for four or five hours.  You can't spend a whole Saturday at a PTQ.  And you can't spend $100 on every new set.

I am, myself, reaching this point.  I'm 25 and married.  No kids yet, but it won't be long.  I'm not greasy or smelly, but I am a geek.  I happen to be a computer geek and that's my profession.  I realized a few months ago, that if I spent as much time reading and working on my career that I spent playing and reading about Magic, my potential would be unlimited.  I'd also probably be a lot happier in the long run.  So it's really only a matter of time before I put my trade binder away for good.  That's just how it has to be.  It's that way for everyone.  It will be that way for you one day.

- Falc

[Hi-Val]

You guys are hitting it with the price thing. The reason old men play chess in the park instead of Magic is that, at most, a good, good board costs ~$60 and a chess timer $120-200. Versus -a- mox to enter real play, that's nothing.

[frimble]

People will spend money the hobbies they enjoy.  Wether its $10 for a cheap chess set or its $2000 for a new set of power.  I think, though its a hugely valid point, the money issue is a lesser one to the reputation one.

My big question: How do we get MTG into the "cool" groups of kids.  This will bolster the game's reputation.  WE nerds would still win the tourneys 'cause we're smarter that them, but they would bring us their reputation and their money.  We would really win.

How can we or WotC change the reputation of this game?

[Dante]

Honestly, once you get out of high school, "cool" doesn't matter.  How many groups of males in their 20s and 30s spends hundreds or thousands of dollars on video games?  Lots including "cool" people.  The issue is that most hobbies like this tend to start in high school where "cool" still matters.  Unless fantasy games can be brought into mainstream for people in high school, Magic will never be "cool".

[Moxlotus]

I will say that fantasy IS starting to make it mainstream with movies anyway. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.  Maybe if this keeps up, cards won't be so far behind.

I think there is another reason that people haven't mentioned yet. Anybody remember Pokemon? I think people try to relate Magic to Pokemon and automatically deem it for little kids and nerds. Not to mention that it will flop in a few years, they dont know Magic has been around for 10 years.

[Tripps]

I consider myself a d0rk, and I don't really care. But my best friend is a football player, that also happens to play magic(and he's good too, hes not a mindless zombie whose vocabulary is the extent of "football good"). I also know preps, goths, skaters, musicians, and druggies who play the game. I find a lot of diversity in the people who play here, so some of the "cool" kids are playing the game, but I think a lot of them try to hide it from their friends.

But at the tournaments, it is usually me and my d0rky friends or the 18-25 year olds who top 8. For the record, me and my d0rky friends range in age from 15-17.

And on the topic of Magic and Pokemon, I DO get people who walk by and laugh while I am playing, or come up and ask if I am playing Pokemon(and they usually pronounce it in an odd way to make it sound more degrading), which seems to be one of the bigger problems with it not being mainstream. Personally I don't mind this happening to me, because I know it can't be helped.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Quote I was just curious if all of you had any ideas on how to combat this and maybe give magic more of the respect that it deserves.

This is what I thought in May. I'm not sure if that's what I agree with anymore. The most important thing is probably to, like Smmenen said, change the age group perception. No one will ever think something is respect-worth if they think 10-year-olds are the typical player.

I'm 17, for the record.

-Phil

[Ephraim]

I was aware of the stigma, when I was in high scool, but Magic was a pretty popular game, in my area, and it's hung on. Now a lot of the people who played in high school still play and often show up to the local card shops on weekends. All of us have jobs, responsibilities, lives (to a greater or lesser degree). We make time for Magic, because it is our hobby, and we enjoy it. Now, among us, very few aspire to the level of play that people here at TMD seem to. I'm a died-in-the-wool casual player. Most of the people in this area are budget players who like building flashy, unusual decks.

To provide another counterexample, my father plays Magic. I got him into it back when I was in high school, now he's a more avid player than I am. He has a full time job, manages family responsibilities (a wife and two children - albeit college-aged children), and takes care of the household. But every Saturday, he'll slip out to go rummage through the common bins or to play cards with the weekenders.

The secret to spreading Magic and thus, eliminating the stigma, is easy. Share it. If somebody's interested in starting, give them a preconstructed deck - or build them a deck yourself. I'm sure I've got a decent training deck buried in my cards. Invite them to the weekly booster draft - or better yet, use a silly casual format that'll help them get into the spirit of the game, in addition to learning the rules and good strategry.

[ElricDjinn]

The fact that Magic has new cards is huge.  Chess is a game that will have the exact same rules every time that you play it throughout your life.  

Cheap chess sets are $10- nice ones run a little more.  If you want to play competitively, you have to get a clock, preferably a good one.

Interestingly, I think that chess a lot of popularity among boys aged 10-14.  However, the fact that it is played by people of all ages is a definite plus for its image.

I cannot see any collectable game becoming as widespread as games like chess.  As Falc said, there’s no point to buying extra queens in chess.  You cannot really get into chess “too late” and don’t have to catch up with cards sets after taking a break from it.

Personally, I don’t buy more than $10-15 of cards a year anymore.  I still support my local gaming store a little, but they’ll have to find new players if they want someone to buy more than 1 pack of each new set.  

Instead, I buy a couple dollars worth of cheap sleeves and print out proxies.  I have 3 sets of power along with every other card that I want and when I put the cards away for a month, a year, or even for good, I won’t regret having spent more money on the game.  I still enjoy playing with friends and thinking about the game as an intellectual exercise.  That’s good enough for me.

[Jakedasnake]

I play Magic quite a bit, but basically only with one really cool guy. The rest of my friends know I play and don't care; they don't think it's dorky. Hell, I play sports, have quite a bit of good friends, and am an outgoing person. People that would judge me by a game I play are people that I would not waste my time or energy converting; they're already biased.

[Matt The Great]

In my experience, it's all about the price. People see fifteen random pieces of cardboard, and to them, it's not worth $3 - it's worth about fifty cents, max. Sane people can't rationalize throwing away a CD's worth of cash on cardboard.

If the standard price for a top deck was like $10-$20, I could see people playing. But when it takes a minimum $75 to assemble a playable deck (in Standard - larger formats get more expensive as you start to add OOP rares, dual lands, and finally Power), people say "fuck, for $75 I could get a video game that'll keep me entertained for weeks, or I could go on a really nice date, or I could get 4-5 CDs." People don't want to spend that much money on one game.

[Eastman]

In my experience the stigma is self attached. This is generally the case with people who feel dorky or uncool - their own lack of confidence results in their being perceived in that way.

I don't hide what I do on weekends from anyone, and have never met with anything but genuine interest.  If you show a little confidence no one is going to think less of you because you play Magic.



Magic has been around for ten years now. Chess has been played for hundreds of years. Magic is a game of luck and skill and strategy. Chess is a game of only skill.

I don't think they are very similar at all actually. Chess is more popular because it has existed for generations.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, being a Candidate Master in Chess ... I think I have some grounds to speak here with a little authority.

Quick History Lesson,

Chess dates back to Alexander the Great bringing the game back from his expeditions to Asia. With the fall of Greece, the Muslims brought the game from Alexander's Empire to Spain ... where it enjoyed huge popularity for the 800 year time span they occupied Andaluscia. Meanwhile, the Automunn Empire spread the game to Russia, where it was immensely popular and backed by the Soviet Government as a key method to instill discipline and focus into the masses. From there, European influences from Spain spread the game to England then France and Italy, while Russia brought the game to Germany. The two cultures then collided Chess into all of Europe, the Balkans and Russia during the massive upheavel and war in the 1800's. Meanwhile, Chess moved west to America during its two Industrial Revolutions as the Irish and Germans brought the game over in mass with them.

Now, you compare a couple thousand years of history and the immense social implications of Chess over the last few hundred years to Magic. Arguably one of the greatest battles of the Cold War was Fischer vs Spassky alone. How can you compare Magic to such a game?

Not to mention, Chess costs nothing to play competitively other than Membership Fees, A standardized tournament Chess set and Clock along with any instruction materials ranging from a Coach, books or computer programs. Even if your a hardcore Chess player, the amount of money you spend on the game is nothing compared to Magic.

As far as Checkers and Go extend, I really can't comment on them. They have always been the bastards of Chess, and haven't had nearly the same implecations in human history and society. Mahjong IS however a very deep game that I don't fully understand and really suck at. It hails from the Orient, obviously, and i'm a told by those who know its an excellent game that has the same historical and social implications as Chess to Eastern Asia. I was encouraged to stay away from the game so it wouldn't convulde my perception of Chess, the same reason a Band player never plays a Woodwind and a Brass I imagine.

In summary, for a 10 year old game, the fact that its even mentioned along the name of Chess is extraodinary. I think its D&D theme is what supports its popularity amongst youth, and its deep strategy is what keeps them in the game after they grow older. Anything short of Poker tho' wont recieve wide acceptance as "The" card game, for the same reason Checkers will never be "The" board game in comparison to Chess. The standard that is set ahead of Magic in unimaginably high, and in order for it to continue to thrive it has to stick to its roots ... that D&D game.

[Mox Monkey]

I disagree with those who are saying that price is the main difference keeping Magic out of mainstream life. In my experience, most of the players i play with are over the age of 20 and many are in their 40's. Because this is the age group that plays magic the most, most of the people who can be attracted to the game (and are then repelled) are probably in this same age bracket. By this time, most of us have jobs and/or families, and spending a hundred dollars every three months can hardly be seen as a major expense in relation to many of the other unneccesary things we spend our money on.

I think that the main reason Magic does (and probably always will) have a stigma as a game played by nerds and losers is that, by and lagre, this stigma is correct. Never was this fact more clear to me than a few months ago when my wife decided that she would come with me to tourney and see what the hell I was spending so much time doing. Trying to view the Magic subculture from the perspective of an outsider (who probably is already looking for reasons to disdain on our hobby) is a shocking eye-opener. Many of the idiosyncracies of "normal" interaction between players is extremely weird outside the context of a tournament. Any person walking by a table and hearing shouts of things such as "I tap my sex monkey" or "cardboard jesus ownz you, foo, I'm mad L33t!", along with the abundance (at least where i play) of pornographic material accompanying each table, will most likely be put off the game. Add this to the overabundance of unwashed, annoying, overweight, and socially inept individuals that flock to magic and you have a recipie for disaster. After about an hour of gaming my wife was content to never see a magic card again for the rest of her life (i was not even sure she still loved me after that  ). The only way that this stigma can ever change is if the Majority of the magic playing public makes a conscious effort to adhere to most of the social norms and morays set down by our great society--especilly those regarding hygene and conduct when in the company of the fairer sex. This is entirely unlikely to ever happen (though i wish it would).

On a slightly related note, the influx of new CCG's in the last few years has done nothing to bolster Magic's relations with the outside world. While new games such as Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! have made Magic more viable of a business venture than ever before (because many of their disillusioned players join our ranks), it has further harmed the view of players in the public eye. Now instead of being merely a game for nerds, the majority of people (realating it to the other kids games because they dont know any better) think "havnt you grown out of that stupid trend yet?, get a life. I would not hold my breath for Social acceptance to come to us, I do not think its gonna happen anytime soon.

[mouth]

I fall into that category of people who try and hide their hobby from other people. While all of my friends do play Magic, I really don't want them talking about how they Berserked their Giant Growthed, Blood Lusted squirrel token when we're out in public.

This is gonna make me look like an ass methinks.

I like interacting with people, I like girls, I like being in public and going to parties and bars and I like appearing "cool". Magic, as a rule, is not a cool thing. That's not to say that alot of my friends aren't socially inclined either, we just keep our hobby private, but not all of them.

This all ties in with my extreme dislike of tournaments and especially pre-releases. Is it some truly serendipitous occurence that a great majority of these tournament attendees don't know proper hygiene? I really doubt that. In fact, it would be interesting which way the cause and effect worked here: Magic attracts stinky people, or stinky people are attracted to Magic.

Really, if you had ever had any normal social experiences, you'd know that you need to shower, hopefully once a day. You need deodorant; don't wear a sweater in the middle of summer; use breathmints; brush your teeth; wipe your hands before you touch my cards; don't fart when you're playing me, or anyone for that matter. WotC should print little reminders for that kind of shit on every pack of cards.

Ugh. I really couldn't give a flying *radio edit* whether or not your entire Slide deck is foil, or asian. I care not for your smug attitude to my non-foil and semi-budget Type 2 deck.

Maybe it's just really bad in my area, or is this along the lines of an epidemic?

[DISCLAIMER]: Didn't mean to offend anyone... and, also, incase it came across that way, I'm not a fascist or anything.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think its wise to put "Magic Player" on your forehead either Mouth. Some things don't transfer well to other people. There is a time and place for everything.

[Smash]

mouth: Are you that insecure in yourself, that if people find out you *gasp* play a game, your self-perceived level of coolness will lesson?

It is this attitude that contributes to the social problems that magic has.

That, and magic needs back on ESPN2 to get more mainstream appeal

[Zherbus]

If the general masses could play 'pick-up' magic like one would do with say Chess, Poker, or Basketball then it would hold a much broader interest. The aspect of having to devote an insane amount of time testing, tweaking, and whatnot creates a different "effort:being somewhat mediocre" ratio.

Bottom line: All games require a lot of time and effort to be very good. However, most people are satisfied with just getting by, and it takes far too much work for most people to be somewhat decent in Magic.

[frimble]

Is what I just read, "Magic is too difficult to be popular."?

That certainly makes a lot of sense.  I would say that the great majority of people just want to play not neccesarily be good which is too bad in itself.  But that is the way the masses are.

So now our challenge seems to be that we need to make Magic cool, economical, AND we need to make people WANT to spend time at it over a continued long time.   Wow, that's harder.

[Traveler]

Magic is too complicated to be main stream.  Each player has their own deck of 60 cards, where each card can be different.  The cards played with at each event are different as well.  You have to know all the cards, what they do, and complex rules.  That is why it flopped on ESPN.  

If you look at poker which is doing extremely well on ESPN, it has simple rules using a 52 card deck everyone is familiar with.  Both games are very complex and interesting.  

Magic is interesting to a degree to older people, but they just don't have the time to learn it.  The learning curve is very high for this game.  The cost issue only comes into play when someone has taken the time to learn the game, but then finds out they can't afford it.  That doesn't really impact acceptance of the game.

When people don't know much about something other than who is involved in it, the image is shaped by the appearance of those people.  Mouth is right when he says smelly people hurt Magic.  Kai, Osyp, Bob Mayer, Gary Wise etc. are respectable looking people.  The guys playing at Dennys usually aren't.  Since the game is too hard to follow on TV if you don't know the rules, people aren't familiar with the respectable players, and they aren't going to ask the guys at Dennys what they are doing.

[Puschkin]

Well, chess vs Magic is a little bit unfair since chess is thousands of years old. All MAgic has to do is survive some hundred years and then you'll have you most favourite game.

However, by that time, it won't have any fantasy flavour left and generally speaking you would not recognize the game as Magic anymore.

[Ephraim]

That raises an interesting question, Puschkin. Most CCG's flare out fairly quickly. Magic has endured an impressive ten years. How long can any CCG continue to evolve, without totally changing what the game is? Five or ten years down the road, will Magic be something completely different? Will it be a constant rehash of decade-old cards (the ones least likely to be recognized, particularly by new players). Will Magic even still be around? With questions like these, does it really matter how the public perceives Magic? If it's going to go the way of Deadlands, there's really no reason to stress over it.

[mouth]

The point I was attempting to entertain is that, there is indeed a heavy social stigma attached to Magic, and the people who play it.

I view Magic as much as a game of strategy as I do a social event. However, the majority of Magic players, at least at tournaments, and this is a wild generaliation, are not socially apt. If your average person correlates those two factors together, and they often do, it is a serious inhibition to their willingness to play Magic.

In any case, we should just accept the fact that most people will always view Magic as a kids game. You can't really change that, barring some national "Cool kids play Magic too" campaign. Of course, time could dissolve these social pre-conceptions that most people have, hopefully.

@Smash: You call it my "self-perceived" degree of coolness, but it is much beyond my own head. And yes, Magic needs to be back on ESPN2.

[Garth One Eye]

I've been playing Magic for a long time, and the best correlation I've seen is that Magic is a mixture of Chess AND Poker.  And yes, I am married and have young children, (my six year old daughter loves to play me  

With the daily stresses of life, I can think of nothing more relaxing than playing a game with friends, trading, gold fishing, or just tinkering around with your decks.

I do enjoy a game of Chess once and a while, but there's not much to interact with when you're not playing someone or something (computer).

I reject the notion that you can't have a healthy family life and play Magic.  Of course there are going to be rude, unkept people, just like there are in Chess, or any other hobby/game.  And yes, my wife chides me and teases me sometimes about my "geeky" hobby, but so what!?    

I refer to myself as a "Closet Geek" anyway.    

It'll be interesting to see in 10 more years, if Magic is still as popular (or more so) as it is today.  I wonder if people were this passionate about Chess after 10 years of it's existence?