Welder MUD was once one of the better decks in the T1 sce...

[Willforce]

Quote (BuboniC @ Dec. 09 2003,22:50)Welder MUD was once one of the better decks in the T1 scene, but come January first, it all will be changed. One of Welder MUD’s strongest matchups was Long.dec, which, come January first will be obsolete. MUD in order to stay competitive, must survive in a combo, combo hate, aggro, and control Meta’s. There for the deck needs to evolve to fit the Meta. So here goes, The Evolution of MUD:
 
Creatures:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metal Worker

Kills:
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Lockdown:
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindslaver


Engines:
3 Minds Eye
3 Thirst of knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Wheel of Fortune

Mana (25):
4 Glimmervoid
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarain Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:
4 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Powder Keg
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Blood Moon
2 Karn, Silver Golem

 

4 metalworker
4 mishra's workshop
1 tolarian
1 sol ring
1 cript
1 vault
3 moxen
1 loto

and u are worried about sphere???  

and i don't understand...3 mind's eye...reduntant and useless ...to draw u also have a lot of cards...

about the play situation...you describe,...it's not an easy situation...how can u have for sure a Mindslaver in graveyeard???

sphere are also the winning condition with atog or fish.

[Razvan]

Breathweapon: a minor point:

Quote 1st, we want to be rid of Smokestacks, a subpar lock

I don't think so. It's a very early lock if you can get them down first turn, and a lot of decks simply lose. You can sometimes side them out for games 2 and 3, but I think they are such a menace, they should stay in there.

[BuboniC]

OK- here goes:

1)Willforce:
Im not worried about sphere for me, I'm worried about its effect on my opponent, and when I have a slaver lock on him- will it annoy me? Im getting two way feedback on my opinions, and will most likely make a cut and add Sphere of Resistance in.

2) Toad:
All artifact prison decks are true control dsecks, besides the aggro ones (TnT, Bosh and Affinity). The main reason I started this thread was the lack of other people's idea's on the deck.

3) Riggy:
Can I see your list of Slavery? I have only been playtesting for three weeks, and if you have been playing it since two weeks post-mirrodin, you must have a better education than me in terms of the deck. I don't quite know how you lost to Tog, it has been very minimal trouble, as Chalice shuts it down, and Mindslaver kill ther hand/Graveyard.

Also:
Decklist is edited, Sphere of Resistance is added.

[Willforce]

Quote (BuboniC @ Dec. 11 2003,18:29)OK- here goes:

1)Willforce:
Im not worried about sphere for me, I'm worried about its effect on my opponent, and when I have a slaver lock on him- will it annoy me? Im getting two way feedback on my opinions, and will most likely make a cut and add Sphere of Resistance in.

 
Also:
Decklist is edited, Sphere of Resistance is added.

OK , i have understand what u say...i think that your opponent will be more annoyed by sphere than by your mindslaver, just because sphere is quickier so put it in is a good choice you choose right

[BuboniC]

Sphere is a current in the deck, I will test it out, I have taken 3 solitare hands and it is playing out very well. I want to toss in a balance in the deck/ other broken cards, any suggestions?

[Binary]

Quote (BuboniC @ Dec. 11 2003,21:56)Sphere is a current in the deck, I will test it out, I have taken 3 solitare hands and it is playing out very well. I want to toss in a balance in the deck/ other broken cards, any suggestions?

Told ya Sphere would work.  

What would you hope to achieve by adding Balance to the deck? In my experience with this deck style, it doesn't really buy you much.

Chances are you're going to have more cards in hand than your opponent (especially once you get to steal a turn from them) so you're probably going to be pitching good cards. (Then again, maybe pitching a Mindslaver isn't such a bad thing, LOL.)

And there's also a solid chance you'll have more land too, since this is a fairly permanent-intensive strategy by virtue of the Smokestack/Tangle Wire.

The only really strong use I see for it is creature control, and in that aspect it could be worthwhile. A well-placed one could balance the board (pun intended) until you can get set up.

I would consider reinforcing what has traditionally been the weakest link of any deck using Goblin Welder.... Goblin Welder.
Without these guys in play you don't really have a lock, just a really cool turn every once in a while.

I would look into some way to get those back.

[Willforce]

winter orb?
dragon deck maybe can suffer this...mana or draw engine...uhm....a very difficult choice...

also manlands deck....

[Moxlotus]

Quote (Willforce @ Dec. 11 2003,21:46)winter orb?
dragon deck maybe can suffer this...mana or draw engine...uhm....a very difficult choice...

also manlands deck....

How would Winter Orb hurt Dragon at all?

mox+land(one of the 2 his black) w/ dragon and animate=infinite untapping of land.
he doesn't need to choose between mana and draw engine

also-Landstill(manland deck) has Disks which eat the entire board anyways, so winter orb will die\n\n

[Robert the Swordsman]

Regarding the deck, I don't have much to offer, I apologize, but good luck with it in the future.

However...

...Matt, if you are going to Hadley, you MUST give me a ride.

Not doing so would result in your soul being maimed and torn by tiny and annoying demons (yes, not only are they tiny, they're annoying as well) for all eternity in the endless and horrible fires of Hades...

...sorry. Yeah, well, anyway, if you really are going up, I wouldn't mind a ride if it'd be of no inconvenience to you.

Thanks, and good luck with the deck.

[BuboniC]

Quote (Robert the Swordsman @ Dec. 11 2003,22:16)Regarding the deck, I don't have much to offer, I apologize, but good luck with it in the future.

However...

...Matt, if you are going to Hadley, you MUST give me a ride.

Not doing so would result in your soul being maimed and torn by tiny and annoying demons (yes, not only are they tiny, they're annoying as well) for all eternity in the endless and horrible fires of Hades...

...sorry. Yeah, well, anyway, if you really are going up, I wouldn't mind a ride if it'd be of no inconvenience to you.

Thanks, and good luck with the deck.

No luck yet sorry Rob   , im going to see if I can pay my mom some money/do jobs to get a ride - and trust me, I'll bring the few shining stars in our cardshop that can go with me   .

Also:
Moxlotus got at Willfare first.

[Riggy]

The reaon I lost to Hulk smash was because I simply could not capitalize on my advantage. In one game (which I did win), I did get to slave him, draw 6 cards, drop a tog and drop his hand and graveyard to an idle tog. Very satisfying. But in another game, I was up 6 permanents to 2 on turn 5 and couldn't draw a single lock piece. And in the last game, I dropped a tanglewire, but tog is mostly instants anyway, so he had busy upkeeps and boring main phases. He Fire/Iced a welder, artifact mutated a slaver, and never dropped a tog.

I also just won the local type 1 last night. Nothing too spectacular but we did have a B/U dragon build and a pure black dragon build. And the previous week I did beat neoTog.

Anyway, my deck list as I remember it (and I'm at work, so it may be incomplete). Also, I own no workshops and no power, so metalworkers came out. We are proxy 5: I grabbed 3 moxen, a lotus, and a walk (walk is explained below). Also, this is closer to a budget build, but the changes to the engine should still apply to powered variants.

After the statement that smokestack didn't belong in a slaver deck, I tried this build last night. I pulled the smokestacks and added a second trisk and a second mind's eye. I'm not a huge fan of this build, but it at least illustrates my changes to the "standard" slaver build.

Changes: +2 pentavus, +2 sculpting steel, meta changes (marked appropriately)

// Mana - 27
1x Tolarian Academy
4x Volcanic Islands
4x Fetches
3x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Islands
4x Glimmervoids

// Draw & utility - 14
2x Mind's Eye
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Tinker
1x Time Walk
2x Fire / Ice // metagaming choice
2x Gorilla Shaman // metagaming choice
1x Winter Orb
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

// Lock - 15
4x Goblin Welders
3x Spheres of Resistance // all I own
2x Tangle Wires // all I own
2x Sculpting Steels // to make up for my lacking cards.
4x Mindslavers

// Kill - 4
2x Trisk (or Pentavus, which I favor)
2x Platinum Angel

Sideboard - Fairly standard hate: chalices, hydroblasts, 2 fire ices, 2 tormod's crypts, etc. I had 2 lightning greaves in there with plans to try putting them on a welder (both as acceleration and protection), but never found the opportunity to try them out.

Explanations

Fire/Ice - Meta choice: Neotog, fish, and welder variants. They show up a lot down here (SW Virginia). On a good night (not last night - exams are this week), we'll have 2 dragons, 3 welder players, parfait, fish, hulk, and several rogue decks. Fire Ice is great against welders, shamans, and little fishies. Came out against hulk and dragon.

Plat. Angel - Solid kill card. And a sort of "cover my ass" card against first game  with dragon. After side boarding, it gives me a way to not sweat 500 slivers (if he brings the Queen out) or against Verdant Force. And with the strips, getting 7 mana for a deeds is borderline impossible.

Trisk / Pentavus - an alternate kill to Karn (whom I don't own - have I mentioned my collection is rather scattered). I switch back and forth between these two. The Pentavus gives fodder for an infinite slaver if you have 2 welders, or if you only have 1 welder in play, you control 5 in every 6 turns. the extra 1cc didn't bug me much since I rarely hard cast it anyway.

Gorilla Shaman - meta choice: Every game sees some moxen or sol ring or some mana accelerator. This guy was mvp against neotog, and gets honorable mention versus dragon.

Sculpting Steel - versatility is nice. Dropped it early as a duplicate lotus and sacced it first. Showed up again later as a pAngel, Trisk, and sphere, depending on need. More than 2 didn't work so hot (they often just sat in the graveyard while I welded the "real" artifacts back and forth), but 2 helped me (I feel) have a little more flex in my welding choices.

Time Walk - came in after the smokestacks went out. Replaced an ancestral. It was a meta choice. Nothing makes me feel worse then having an ancestral misdirected. Even losing the extra counter off a tanglewire, I never objected to taking an extra turn.

Winter Orb - with so much artifact mana, I hardly felt the hurt at all. It wasn't overly synergistic with the deck but I could use it to slow them down with the spheres and then weld it out for a slaver. So their first turn in a goodly while with full mana capabilities was one I controlled. That was nice, but with mox monkeys and strips, I don't think it worked too well.

Chalices sideboard: Again a meta choice - the only matchup it really helped in was dragon, and I've already got that fairly hated in my sideboard. Yes it's a good lock card, but as often as not in testing, I was unhappy to see it.

No metal workers: the lack of workshops means I have to rely on my sparse selection of artifact mana to drop one on turn 1. Not worth the four slots. I do have my friend sending me a workshop from a collection that we bought. Probably still won't play workers just b/c I accelerate as fast as any of my non-welder opponents and when I draw him, I'm rarely happy about it.

All in all, I'm unhappy with the loss of smokestacks. I believe it belongs with slaver. It gives you options against what to do with a slaved aggro opponent. In my previous builds, it never got above 2 counters. But, once again, with Pentavus, I simply didn't care how many counters it had.

That's really about it. My usual builds top 4 fairly regularly and have taken first a few times.

[BuboniC]

Quote (Riggy @ Dec. 12 2003,10:15)// Mana - 27
1x Tolarian Academy
4x Volcanic Islands
4x Fetches
3x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Islands
4x Glimmervoids

// Draw & utility - 14
2x Mind's Eye
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Tinker
1x Time Walk
2x Fire / Ice // metagaming choice
2x Gorilla Shaman // metagaming choice
1x Winter Orb
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

// Lock - 15
4x Goblin Welders
3x Spheres of Resistance // all I own
2x Tangle Wires // all I own
2x Sculpting Steels // to make up for my lacking cards.
4x Mindslavers

// Kill - 4
2x Trisk (or Pentavus, which I favor)
2x Platinum Angel

Sideboard - Fairly standard hate: chalices, hydroblasts, 2 fire ices, 2 tormod's crypts, etc. I had 2 lightning greaves in there with plans to try putting them on a welder (both as acceleration and protection), but never found the opportunity to try them out.


Winter Orb - with so much artifact mana, I hardly felt the hurt at all. It wasn't overly synergistic with the deck but I could use it to slow them down with the spheres and then weld it out for a slaver. So their first turn in a goodly while with full mana capabilities was one I controlled. That was nice, but with mox monkeys and strips, I don't think it worked too well.

Chalices sideboard: Again a meta choice - the only matchup it really helped in was dragon, and I've already got that fairly hated in my sideboard. Yes it's a good lock card, but as often as not in testing, I was unhappy to see it.

No metal workers: the lack of workshops means I have to rely on my sparse selection of artifact mana to drop one on turn 1. Not worth the four slots. I do have my friend sending me a workshop from a collection that we bought. Probably still won't play workers just b/c I accelerate as fast as any of my non-welder opponents and when I draw him, I'm rarely happy about it.

All in all, I'm unhappy with the loss of smokestacks. I believe it belongs with slaver. It gives you options against what to do with a slaved aggro opponent. In my previous builds, it never got above 2 counters. But, once again, with Pentavus, I simply didn't care how many counters it had.

That's really about it. My usual builds top 4 fairly regularly and have taken first a few times.

I think Winter Orb is an optical card, but is it worth it? don't you want your opponent to untap just to screw with him more? Also: I have never heard of the word "synergistic" before. I notice you don't use glimmervoid- why?

[Razvan]

Winter Orb just increases the amount of threats that the deck has... but do you guys seriously believe that ANYTHING can replace Sphere?

In the mirror match... hell... that's always the hardest fight.

But ever wonder WHY Keeper uses only 0-1-2-3 cc spells? Now, what does Sphere do to that? That's right, it often doubles or taxes on 50% to the cc of most of the common spells. Yeah, and it doesn't affect you, since your lands are obscene.

[BuboniC]

Quote (Razvan @ Dec. 12 2003,16:43)Winter Orb just increases the amount of threats that the deck has... but do you guys seriously believe that ANYTHING can replace Sphere?

In the mirror match... hell... that's always the hardest fight.

But ever wonder WHY Keeper uses only 0-1-2-3 cc spells? Now, what does Sphere do to that? That's right, it often doubles or taxes on 50% to the cc of most of the common spells. Yeah, and it doesn't affect you, since your lands are obscene.

In no way did this progress the conversation going on here. Sphere is really irriplacable, and if its already in my deck then why would you give me just more reasons too use it? Read the whole topic, and all the posts in it, then reply.

[Riggy]

Quote I think Winter Orb is an optical card, but is it worth it? don't you want your opponent to untap just to screw with him more? Also: I have never heard of the word "synergistic" before. I notice you don't use glimmervoid- why?

Glimmervoid is the last mana card listed. It's in your quote. Sorry it wasn't with the rest of the "4 ofs."

In regards to Winter Orb, even with all the draw, and search, it can sometimes take time to get a continuous slaver effect going every turn. Winter Orb can slow them down long enough so that the first few times I slave them (when my slaving is still sporadic) I can't do as much, but it continues to allow me to get board domination. Winter Orb + tangle wires + spheres + 5 strip effects means I can sit and develop at a borderline crawl and not have to worry too much. Now that falls into the category of synergistic (defined below).

Example from my tourney. Versus B/U dragon. Shaman had eaten his 2 moxen that we'd seen, he had a Bazaar and 3 mana lands. There were two spheres and a Winter Orb in play. I slaved him once, played his mox he was holding, which I then had shaman eat. And tapped his last mana land for the heck of it. That left me with 3 turns minimum before he could do anything that I had to worry about.

I agree that it isn't always useful, but it works often enough that it continues to make my decklist every time. It's also a permanant to sac to smokestacks in the normal build of the deck.

In regards to the word synergistic, from dictionary.com (and I pulled the second definition b/c it was irrelevant):
adj 1: used especially of drugs or muscles that work together so the total effect is greater than the sum of the two (or more) 3: working together; used especially of groups, as subsidiaries of a corporation, cooperating for an enhanced effect; "a synergistic effect" [syn: synergetic]

@Razvan
Nothing replaces Sphere. Sphere has made all my decklists. For a while I had a black splash that added Demonic Tutor and 2 Nether Voids, which augmented Spheres quite nicely, but I'm fairly certain they (meaning spheres) will always be in there.

Regarding a potential mirror match, I think the shamans would give me an edge, but I haven't had the chance to test it throughly yet. My mana base is high and generating 7 mana on my second turn to kill a metalworker isn't terribly difficult. In theory, I should have a Fire/Ice for the low toughness offenders and the shaman plays hell with the utility cards.

[BuboniC]

Quote (Riggy @ Dec. 12 2003,18:38)In regards to Winter Orb, even with all the draw, and search, it can sometimes take time to get a continuous slaver effect going every turn. Winter Orb can slow them down long enough so that the first few times I slave them.

Dont you think having to tap four nonworkshop mana to activate slaver would kinder you alot with Winter Orb? Orb is just the big answer to control, and it depends on your meta if you use them or not in my opinion.

[Riggy]

Quote Dont you think having to tap four nonworkshop mana to activate slaver would kinder you alot with Winter Orb? Orb is just the big answer to control, and it depends on your meta if you use them or not in my opinion.

Definitely agreed. Here were my thoughts when I put it Winter Orb in the deck:

1) it's a good welder target for the end of their turn kind of stuff.
2) 3 Moxen, 1 Lotus, 1 Petal, 1 Sol Ring, 1 Mana Crypt, 1 Mana Vault and a Tolarian Academy (as my one land that I untap) will almost guarantee that I can have the mana open to activate any artifacts that I may need to.

Since the last deck list I posted was heavily meta-d, here is my more standard build. I picked up a Karn last night, plus a third smokestack. I'm still experimenting with various draws. I tried everything from Mirrodin - thirst for Knowledge, Thoughtcast, Mind's Eye, even Serum Tank (which surprisingly wasn't terrible).

My standard Decklist (remember, I'm mostly budget)
// Mana - 25
4x Glimmervoid
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
2x Polluted Delta
1x Strip Mine
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring

// Draw - 14
4x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Mind's Eye
2x Brainstorm
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Meditate
1x Intuition
1x Tinker

// Lock and Utility - 15
4x Goblin Welder
3x Mindslaver
3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Smokestack
2x Tanglewire

// Kills - 4
2x Platinum Angel
1x Karn, Silver Golem
1x Pentavus

// Meta Choice - 2
2x Stifle

Most everything I stated in earlier posts still holds true for this decklist. The stifles I realized had an alternate use of countering the sac ability of a smokestack, allowing me to leave it around for one more turn before I had to weld it out. It was situational, but since I was holding my lone Meditate in my hand, it feld nice to put the third counter on there and then give him two turns in a row.

The Winter Orb went sideboard again, and I kept the chalices sideboard. I'm toying around with an Intuition to see if I'd rather have a MD chalice or Winter Orb. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

The sculpting steels came out in favor of Karn and a third smokestack, I believe. They still might show back up instead of Intuition. I'm still testing a couple of cards. Anyone else tried the Sculpting Steels yet?

[BuboniC]

You use brainstorms? DOnt you think the deck has enough card draw/engines as is? I think it is very suboptimal choice for the slots - any reasons why there good from your perspective?

[Riggy]

I added more draw to make up for the missing workshops, moxen, and lock pieces. As I add more of the lock in there, the brainstorms will come out. I did choose them over Impulses simply for the 1 lower mana casting cost. I don't tap out every turn, but I usually have 1 left over at the end a lot more often than 2.

AFter goldfishing a bit and discussing it with a friend that has been doing competitive type 1 longer than I, we took the Intuition out for 1 Sculpting Steel. Much stronger in my mind.

[BuboniC]

I think Sculpting Steel is no advantage to the deck, it can't copy Mindslaver, Karn(in my deck) and only lock pieces- which I have 4 of each. Here is my current list:

4 Metal Worker
4 Goblin Welder
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Minds Eye
3 Mindslaver
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister

Lands:
4 Glimmervoid
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

SB:
3 Powder Keg(aggro)
3 Blood Moon(take out all 3 cards that are blue and this goes in)
3 Stifle(Dragon/Keeper)
3 Hurkyl's Recall(Prison)
3 Tormod's Crypt(Dragon)