It seems that there is a great deal of strain on budget p...

[centroles]

with the new restrictions, all my lists are going to need to be tweaked. any suggestions?

with long gone, blood moon is fast enough for vintage again.

i'm thinking now with long gone, does chalice officially get the boot from most hate decks to be replaced by null rod? pity, i used to love the card, nowI hate it as it's less playable in budget but still squeezes out a bunch of random budget decks.

i still don't get why the took out one broken tempo breaker (lion's eye) but left the even stronger one in (workshop). and i also don't see why they hurt dragon last time when it was weaker, but chose to left it alone when it stronger than ever now and downright evil in 1.5.

any ways, now that workshop and dragon decks are effectively the champions of vintage, i see a lot more decks pulling out long hate for graveyard hate.

[Vegeta2711]

My 2 second, off the top of my head suggestion for FCG?

Cut a Karpulsan and add the 4th Ancient Tomb. Run 3 ESG over the now gone Chrome Moxen, maybe add a 4th over another Karpulsan.

[centroles]

Just out of curiosity, do you agree with this (I think it's even more applicable to budget decks)...

Quote Many decks are definately more viable with long now gone. But now more than ever, Workshop variants, Dragon, and to a lesser degree Mask based combo decks will make up a large part of the meta any where where people actually own power and play competitively. And these decks are so synergetic that the only way in which other decks can have a chance with them is by packing their sideboards with the appropriate hate. Thus the only decks that are even remotely viable in a competitive environment are those that pack said hate. This isn't a problem regarding Dragon and Mask as essentially every color has easy to cast cards that significantly hurt both decks. But while Mishra's Workshop unduly shuts out a lot of strategies that just don't have the brokenness to race the locks, through no fault of their own, there really isn't any way to effectively hate it out without a blue or red splash.

Until wizards decides to print artifact hate cards for all the colors or decides to restrict the permenant version of black lotus, the only viable noncombo decks are those that splash a significant amount of either blue or red. While this may not seem apparent, anyone who has played against a good workshop deck can attest to incredible amounts of mana the deck can generate in the first few turns, the raw synegetic power of the cards to be able to totally shut you out by turn two, or the futility of trying to trade with the key cards one for one.

Trading for land one for one with cards such as Wasteland or Sinkhole rarely works as there are far too many mana accelerators to be dealt with effectively, and by the time the mana denial can actually hit play, Workshop variants often had already had the key turn one or two needed to lock you out. Trading one for one with threats or by utilizing discard is often just as futile as no deck could match it's hate with the number of threats found in the deck. Current artifact based artifact hosers such as Null Rod and Chalice of the Void deal with far too few threats, and almost always deal with them too late and very poorly at that. Graveyard hard proves just as difficult as the graveyard is typically only a very minor component of the combo. The original MUD builds did very well and never once bothered to utilize their graveyards.

Even after combining all these forms of hate to make up a third of the main deck and almost all of the sideboard, the incredible challenge that decks like Chalice Black face against workshop based decks proves unconditionally just how futile the above measures are. Currently, the only cards with which workshop variants can truly be crippled and hated out are cards that can deal with multiple key artifact threats at once. These consist of Energy Flux, Artifact Mutation, and Rack and Ruin. Hurkyll's Recall and Blood Moon are also effective provided you only need to stall them temporarily. These and only these cards deal with enough threats at once to have any chance to make up for the raw synergy and power found in Workshop variants. And considering that all five cards require a red or blue splash, it becomes quite apparent why so many decks and archetypes are made unplayable by the unresticted presence of Workshop variants. And it also becomes apparent why workshop decks consistently manage to take 4 or 5 slots on almost every top 8 list even while being such a new deck, even with long around and with workshops being so rare. Four copies of a permanent black lotus is afterall no small advantage.

So if the DCI remains firm on it's refusal to restrict Mishra's Workshop, Wizards should at the very least ensure that cheap and effective artifact hate is made accessible to all the colors in the next set whether in the form of individual cards or with more effective artifact based artifact hosers. Afterall, it's not just vintage that's being deformed by artifact decks, extended suffers from the same problem and I predict standard will soon as well.

[BreathWeapon]

Not at all, Nev Disk and Pernicious Deed open up a can of whoop ass vs Prison, neither of which is Red or Blue.

The true factor of importance is whether or not a single deck has sufficient meens to deal with Prison.dec, not whether or not any specific color does. Its like trying to argue that Black is a bad color because it doesn't have Artifact Remvoal, such simplistic arguments are of little worth.

The Fish examples are fine, tho' I would also list Waterfront Bouncer in the exceptable creature slot that Kai and Lord of Atlantis are in. Bouncer is a real house vs Dragon and random aggro. Atleast, its good enough to be noted anyway.\n\n

[centroles]

Do you actually think that either card can come out early enough to have a chance against prison, or are you just making a joke?

[centroles]

Calling on all people with new decklists or decklist modifications for a post January workshop/dragon dominated metagame.

I removed a few decks that I don't believe will be very viable after january, for reference, this is what I removed...

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Necrologia's Budget Long

Disruption
4 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Draw
4 Brainstorm
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker

Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Spoils of the Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

Mana
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy  
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Mox Diamond
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pyroblast
3 Overload
1 Simplify
1 Primitive Justice

This is perhaps the fastest and most viable deck listed. Like its parent long.dec, it’s blazingly fast and very difficult to stop when played optimally. Fortunately, it’s also among the most difficult decks to play optimally. Mastering this deck requires a great deal of playtesting on your part. The combo revolves around generating large amounts of mana, gaining massive card advantage through enchantments like Yawgmoth’s Bargain, and striking a finishing blow with Tendrils of Agony, all in the course of one turn!

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Swordfish's Budget Rectal Agony

Mana
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chromatic Sphere
4 Dark Ritual

Utility
1 Mind's Desire
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony

Draw/Tutors
3 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Academy Rector
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Spoils of the Vault
1 Mystical Tutor

Disruption
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Hull Breach
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Balance
1 Form of the Dragon
1 Primitive Justice
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Rebuild

This is a variation on the budget long deck listed above. It also uses Tendrils of Agony to strike the final blow but utilizes cards such as Academy Rector that slow down the kill in favor of more consistency and disruption. There are numerous cards in the deck, including Chromatic Sphere, Spoils of the Vault, Tinker and Mox Diamond, that may well prove to be suboptimal. In addition, Chrome Mox is a very powerful card that probably warrants consideration. With the addition of a few fetchlands, this deck can easily support a fourth Brainstorm.

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Avi Flamholz's Budget Madness

Mana
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
1 Windswept Heath
1 Lotus Petal

Critters
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Roar of the Wurm

Utility
3 Fiery Temper
3 Anger
2 Wonder
2 Manabond

Draw
4 Careful Study
4 Deep Analysis
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune

Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar/Tormod’s Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Rebuild
2 Xantid Swarm

The concept of this deck is fairly straightforward. Utilize cards that force you to discard your own cards and discard away cards with cheaper madness costs. Madness and Lion’s Eye Diamond provide this deck with a great deal of consistency and raw power. As with Worldgorger Dragon variants, the Bazzar of Bagdad and Squee engine is extremely powerful and synergetic with this deck. Chrome Mox, Regrowth and Sol Ring are also notably absent and warrant consideration.

[centroles]

There's an interesting discussion going on here about how to make vintage slower and more viable to budget players.

[centroles]

The update is complete.

ALL decklists are updated for a post Jan metagame to the best of my abilities.

I also added several newer decks that've popped up recently.

I know there are are a bunch of variations of workshop based decks, I included four budget versions. Are there any budget ones I've left off, are any of the four suboptimal? Help with those lists would be appreciated

[Ifflejink]

Centroles, thank you for posting my decklist.

[Sandster]

Quote Crater Hellion's Welder Mud

Disruption
4 Smokestacks
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistence
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland

Utility
4 Goblin Welder
3 Grafted Skullcap
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune

Critters
2 Karn, Silver Golem

Mana
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
4 Metalworker
3 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
1 Winter Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Bottle Gnomes
2 Blood Moon
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast

Shouldn't the list be using Mind's Eye instead of Skullcaps?

[twn_domn]

I call it bloody hate.
Idea is simple:
Blood Moon and mox monkey for workshop
Chalice for all the mox user
Disruption for all the blue players like Keeper and rector
Wretch for dragon and rector

Mana:
1 Strip Mine
4 wasteland
8 Swamp
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual

1 Demonic Consult
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necro
1 Yawg. Will
1 Smother

3 Nantuko Shade
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Withered Wretch
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Hypnotic Specter

3 Blood Moon
2 Chalice of the void
2 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Unmask


1 smother@  Mainly for mask.  Sometimes they are just fast, now with lightning greaves.

Creature base@ It's really a meta game call.  If workshop decks aren't that popular and ur area is filled with budget players, then adjust accordingly.  One thing to keep in mind w/ the creature is opponent's chalice.  I saw many games that people set chalice at 3 or 2.  So, you might want to diversify the CMC.

No sinkhole, no hymn@ It's too slow.  Really.  If opponent taps his/her workshop, dmg is already done, u sink one turn later is meaningless.  No hymn, but we get unmask.  It's obvious that I am trying to play around chalice for 2, but it also give me the 1st turn disruption.  This deck is all about 1st turn disruption.  1st turn disruption is too important in T1.  No, dark ritual is not the solution to everything.

2 chalice and 2 null rod@  Chalice is great if you win the dice roll.  However, if opponent goes first and drop his/her mox and does his/her broken start, what good is chalice?  However, if u win your dice roll and you have a null rod with no dark ritual, no sol ring, no lotus, then null rod does you no good.  There is no clear advantage.  SB into all null rod or all chalice depending on the match up.

Blood moon@  Blood moon ruins workship, keeper, and other non-basic users.

[BreathWeapon]

I've been working on B/R Suicide for Jan 1st and I will post a list when i'm finished with it.

That said, Unmask loses games to Manadrain and I think its significantly worse than Cabal Therapy in that disruption slot. Chalice of the Void isn't worth running MD, I can't think of one justifiable reason to play it.

Harvester of Sorrow is worth using for umpteen reasons, namely an additional 5 turn clock thats immune to Decree Tokens and dodges STP. He also dodges Chalice for 2, obviously. This guy is a frickin HOUSE.\n\n

[Tijnie]

Bloody Suicide, Tijnie Dec-2003

Creatures: <12>
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Phyrexian Negator
3x Withered Wretch
1x Gorrila Shaman

Disruption: <17>
4x Duress
3x Cabal Theraphy
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Sinkhole
3x Null Rod
3x Blood Moon

Broken: <4>
1x Yawgmoth’s Will
1x Necropotence
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation

Mana: <27>
4x Dark Ritual
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Badlands
2x Polluted Delta
5x Swamp
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Sideboard: <15>
3x Coffin Purge
4x Contagoin
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
3x Terminate

I think this is a nice way to play Suicide in jan. . Blood moons are going to kick ass again. Null rod and Graveyard hate (Wretches) are still very important so I realy like this Bloody Suicide list. I've been playing it for the last few weeks and must say I like it better then Mono-Suicide AND Chalice Black.

The mana base looks a bit scary but till now, I've had only one game witch serieus trouble. and that was in a mirror vs Chalice Black. But I think Bloody does alot better vs the other Tier1 decks so for now it will rock

  Tijnie

[centroles]

Thanks for the lists guys, I'll post them up soon.

Tijne, I would say that the number one reason to splash red in sui black is for maindeck and sideboard artifact hate in the current artifact/workshop filled meta.

You have almost no artifact hate. The only card that red brings into your build is blood moon and that card alone imo doesn't warrant messing up the airtight manabase. While this is a good card, I would certainly prefer a monoblack build utilizing sinkhole over your build for many reasons... sinkhole is faster, is more useful against random decks as well, and doesn't shut out much of your mana base and make it nearly impossible to scrounge up enough black mana for the shades in the process.

Monoblack Suicide is a very powerful deck that can deal with most decks. The main reason so many opt for the red splash is because sui black has an almost autoloss versus workshop based decks. And blood moon simply doesn't come out fast enough to matter. After one activation of workshop, the welder mud player will have more artifact mana sources than he/she knows what to do with. It's just as futile versus dragon as well since one activation of bazaar is all a dragon player needs to ensure a second turn win. Don't get me wrong, blood moon does belong in Bloody suicide, but the priority should be artifact hate IMO.

[Sandster]

Well there's Gorilla Shaman on the list, though there definitely should be more (at least 2).  Also, why does this deck not have Rack and Ruin in the SB?  Am I missing something?

[Ifflejink]

Would Parfait or Aggro Slax perform in a decent meta?

[Tijnie]

you can take out the sinkhole for the second shaman. and if you like rack and ruin try them for the chains of mep. If you feel those cards are needed you should take them in this way. The reason I don't use them is because I actually never play vs any artifact decks.

[centroles]

can any one attest to just how effective b/r sui black is. the more i tweak it, the more inconsistent it seems to get. not that it's inconsitent. but it's definatley not nearly as fast or consistent as monoblack.

[BreathWeapon]

Yes, I can attest to it being a good deck. Anything that can pack 4 Null Rods and 4 Bloodmoon MD after sideboarding is a significant threat. B/R Suicide will only excel in a meta where it is allowed to excel. It is really Scepter Control Hate.dec with MD considerations vs Dragon in Withered Wretch and Bloodmoon. The SB is very vicious with 4 Rack and Ruin and several REBs. The decks philosophey is correct, but if your meta is not geared towards hating; Chalice Keeper, Iso-Keeper, 3 Color Chronic, U/r Scepter, Scepter-Parfait, Slavery.dec, Hulk and GAT than their isn't much point in playing this deck.

A small tip, pack MD Fire/Ice instead of Sinkholes, you'll need them vs U/r Fish and Goblins.

I have a pretty good Parfait List in the Vintage thread concerning the matter. Its really cheap to build and play with several good match ups. Feel free to import it if you'd like.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Slax: The $95 Solution
Build Current as of 1/1/2004

        3 Ancient Tomb
        3 Chalice of the Void
        4 City of Traitors
        4 Mind's Eye
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Grim Monolith
        4 Juggernaut
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Memory Jar
        9 Mountain
        4 Myr Enforcer
        3 Ankh of Mishra
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Wasteland
        3 Blood Moon
        1 Wheel of Fortune
//  Sideboard:
SB:  4 Duplicant
SB:  3 Pyroclasm
SB:  1 Blood Moon
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  3 Tormod's

Budget WelderMUD
Build Current as of 12-14-2003

// Mana
        6 Mountain
        4 Metalworker
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Cloudpost
        4 Wasteland
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 City of Traitors
// Utility
        2 Karn, Silver Golem
        4 Goblin Welder
// Lockies
        4 Smokestack
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        3 Winter Orb
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Tangle Wire
// Draw Engine
        4 Mind's Eye
// SB
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  3 Blood Moon
SB:  4 Tormod's Crypt

[centroles]

Thanks for the lists, I'll edit them in along with these two nuggets from bebe.

Quote
I've updated a few budget combo decks ...

Angry Hermit

mana: 24
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
3 City of Brass  
3 Gemstone Mine  
3 Bayou
4 Llanower Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 ESG

Animate/Recur: 10
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Dragon Breath

search: 8
4 Worldly Tutor
2 Buried Alive
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Disruption: 3
3 Cabal Therapy

creatures: 16
4 Hermit Druid
4 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Putrid Imp
1 Gilded Drake
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Xantid Swarm

SB:
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Plated Slagwurm
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Naturalize

The Angry Hermit deck needed some faster starts and more weapons. This deck now has what it needs to win quickly and efficiently. We tested it for about 40m games and the results justified its inclusion on our budget list.

Survival/Dragon

search - 9
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawg's Bargain
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pursuit of Knowledge
1 Sylvan Library

Utility creatures - 6
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Psychatog
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Combo elements - 16
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Academy Rector
1 Day of the Dragons
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Worldgorger Dragon

utility - 3
2 StP
1 Pernicious Deed

mana - 26
4 Birds of Paradise
3 ESG
3 Quirion Elves
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest

sb - 15  
3 Stifle
3 Naturalize
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gilded Drake
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Withered Wretch  
1 Devout Witness
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Monk Realist

This deck screams jank. But it incorporates so many random synergistic effects that it flat out wins games it should not. Its biggest problem has been Fire/Ice - not insurmountable but a definate deterent. It can be inconsistent at times but more often just finds a way to win. We worked on this for quite awhile. Hope you enjoy it as much as we did.