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Author Topic: So everyone has been talking about how putting a card dra...  (Read 5210 times)
Falc
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« on: December 09, 2003, 11:50:07 am »

So everyone has been talking about how putting a card drawer on a Scepter owns control mirror matches.  And everyone knows that Oath of Druids smacks aggro strategies in the face.  So what happens when we take a cue from some of the best players in the world (YMG) and combine them?  Do we get a better Unpowered Oath deck than before?  Let's check it out:

// Falc's Unpowered Scepter Oath_Type1
//
    4  - Oath of Druids
    3  - Isochron Scepter
    3  - Abeyance
    4  - Brainstorm
    2  - Mana Leak
    4 [RV] - Counterspell
    4  - Force of Will
    3  - Cunning Wish
    1  - Spike Feeder
    1  - Spike Weaver
    1  - Akroma, Angel of Wrath
    2  - Gaea's Blessing
    1  - Enlightened Tutor
    1  - Mystical Tutor
    1 [RV] - Balance
    1  - Fact or Fiction
    1  - Library of Alexandria
    1  - Strip Mine
    3 [TP] - Wasteland
    2  - Yavimaya Coast
    3 [RV] - Savannah
    4 [RV] - Tundra
    4 [RV] - Tropical Island
    3  - Flooded Strand
    3  - Windswept Heath
//
SB: 3 [RV] - Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1  - Hydroblast
SB: 1  - Stifle
SB: 1  - Argivian Find
SB: 1  - Funeral Pyre
SB: 1  - Naturalize
SB: 1 [RV] - Crumble
SB: 1  - Orim's Chant
SB: 1  - Abeyance
SB: 1  - Fire/Ice
SB: 1  - Morphling
SB: 1  - Woodripper
SB: 1  - Phantom Nishoba

What I want to focus on is whether or not this is a better strategy than a more traditional build like we've seen in Queequeg's mini-primer.

I decided to run the Abeyances in the maindeck because they cantrip and are stupid on a stick.  It provides a much softer lock than Orim's Chant, but is the better weapon against control decks.  Don't you agree?

Three Cunning Wish in the maindeck allow for a true toolbox sideboard filled with potential Scepter targets and one-shot bullets.  Obviously, CotV set to 2 is a nightmare for this deck, so that's why I chose to include both Naturalize and Crumble as wish targets.  I also wanted a wishable win condition in the sideboard in case the Oath plan is shut down, so I chose Fire/Ice to help finish off stubborn control decks.  This addition also eliminates the need for man-lands as a backup plan.

I chose to run no StP in the maindeck, and that worries me a little.  Obviously, Oath of Druids handles most aggro decks, but you can still be overrun.  I decided to stash 3 StP in the board so that you can side two in and still have one available as a Wish target.  If you play in a 90% aggro environment, you might consider moving the StP's to the main and ship the Abeyances to the board.

A Stupid Burn-type deck with Bolts, Ball Lightning, and Fireblast could also be trouble.  I left a couple extra Hydroblasts in the board to handle those.  They probably aren't needed, and suggestions to replace two of them are more than welcome.

I'm excited to hear some discussion on this topic and look forward to your replies.  Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Since the deck has no black mana, I decided to go with Feeder/Weaver instead of Visara.  Having two uncastables is just not good.  I also found a couple good replacements for those extra hydroblasts with Argivian Find and Funeral Pyre.  The find is a great Wish target when you need an Oath or Scepter from your yard and the Pyre can force an annoying opponent to let you Oath.

- Falc
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xrizzo
Guest
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2003, 12:06:06 pm »

I have been working on this type of deck for some time now.  

The logic is perfect.  Dragon is the best combo deck, and having Gaea's Blessings will force them to kill with a different method.  (not impossible, but annoying)  Control mirrors are greatly improved with scepter, and aggro doesn't much like Oath.  

I have always felt Oath needed to be a powered deck, it is playable unpowered, but won't have the necessary speed to come back from games which a powered version could...

Anyway, after I complete more testing I will post my powered version of Scepter Oath.
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2003, 12:56:46 pm »

Oath is looking really good in T1 against almost everything but Dragon. Its a very cheap and inexpensive deck to build, and Scepter compounds this.

With the exception of Hulk, which needs to MD 2 Deeds and use 2 more in the SB IMO, any control deck can be made better by the inclusion of Scepters. Maybe not 4 of them, but 2-3 supplement an AK engine very well.
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Comrade Seraph
Guest
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2003, 05:55:02 pm »

Breath - you realize that Gaea's Blessing means that Laquatus doesn't work... right? Doesn't that + stifle/swords make Dragon a damn good match?
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 02:38:01 pm »

Sure it does, but that doesn't meen that Oath of Druids is worth a damn in that match up. Oath is likely to have more dead cards vs Dragon than most other control decks.
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Sandster
Guest
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2003, 02:47:37 pm »

Dragon can still get that ultra-annoying Compulsion up before going off, then Ancestral you when you have an empty library with Blessing's ability on the stack.

And, as Breath has already stated, Oath of Druids is worthless against Dragon.  Dragon will remain a hard matchup.

By the way, adding Stifles instead of Mana Leaks would be a good idea, for 3 reasons:
1) Diversify CC of the deck, and it can shut down Chalice for one spell.
2) Leak on a stick is meh; Stifle on a stick is amazing.
3) Stifle is a more versatile card than Leak ever will be, and it costs less.
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Falc
Guest
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2003, 02:55:28 pm »

Replacing Mana Leak with Stifle is a pretty good idea.  I'll try it out.  A few things are concerning me about this right now...

1) Is the deck too dependent on Scepter and if so, should it then run four copies?

2) Is the Wish-board the way to go with this or should I just drop/reduce the Wishes and run a more normal Sideboard?

3) Can the deck survive without a board clearing spell (Keg, Deed, etc), or is one absolutely necessary?

- Falc
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Queequeg
Guest
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2003, 05:46:14 pm »

Do not underestimate combo decks, especially ones as fast as Dragon. Verse Dragon a large part of any Oath deck turns to a steaming pile pre-sideboard. This is especially true with Falc's build, because he doesn't main deck Morphling (Hard casting Akroma is tricky enough, getting it back after its been countered is another matter). Dragon can squeeze out a kill as early as turn 1 on a shoelace of mana and resources, and is commonly supported by more free counters than the average Oath Deck. On the upside Gaeas Blessing will stop Laquatus but it won't stop either Cursed scroll or Stroke of genius from the sideboard, most good Dragon players will have at least 1 alternative kill available from game 1. Even so Dragon isn't the hardest of matches (its just a long awkward one), especially if you splash black for Duress or run an Ophidian conversion in the sideboard.

Falc,

Quote
Quote 1) Is the deck too dependent on Scepter and if so, should it then run four copies?

Oath is already massively dependant on Oath of Druids, the best Oath builds will minimise this by providing insurance plans i.e. a solid counter base, spot removal and non-targeting effects. By making an Oath deck that is not only highly dependent on oath but also on Scepter is kind of compounding the problem that Oath suffers. So I certainly wouldn't run 4, and I wouldn't gear the deck too much around this card, by that I mean don't run cards which are solely included because of there synergy with Scepter. In saying this I don't won't to suggest that I am against the inclusion of Scepter in Oath, In fact I think that Scepter can elevate the redundancy of Oath of Druids in certain matches. I have yet to test the card in my Oath build but my gut instincts are telling me to initially trial 2.

Quote
Quote ) Is the Wish-board the way to go with this or should I just drop/reduce the Wishes and run a more normal Sideboard?

I think your sideboard needs help certainly but IMO wish is a house in Oath. Oath is a tight deck anyway and Wish provides access to some serious answers without compromising other deck slots. But you need to be seriously strict on the tool selection because on sideboard slots are usually in high demand to. I would keep wish in the main deck, and sideboard stifle. Stifle is less flexible than countermagic and if you need stifle and cards alike you can fetch them.

Quote
Quote 3) Can the deck survive without a board-clearing spell (Keg, Deed, etc), or is one absolutely necessary?

Both Deed and Keg offer versatility, out of the 2 I prefer Keg because it doesn't hurt Oath. To be honest I have only ever once needed to tutor for the single Keg I main board in my current build, So the frequency that you require controlled selective board sweeping effects is not often, because most of the time Oathing up weaver solves 99% of the problems keg does and the remaining 1% of the problems and the occasions when oath doesn't turn up can be cured by Balance. But in saying that I probably would of lost that game where I didn't tutor for Keg if it hadn't of been there.

Getting to your deck Falc;

Mana Drain, where are they? Expensive I know but the performance difference you will notice is massive. Oath is a really colourless mana hungry deck. The Weaver/Feeder lock loves Drain, plus is helps with tricky matches by giving you the option to drain in a Morphling from your hand. You are running Scepter which will mean your build will benefit form them even more, then the standard build. Save up! run 4 instead of counterspell.

Misdirection is also missing from your build. Think about what it doesn't "counter" Force of will is good, so what does that do that Misdirection don't? Counter creatures, who cares? Plus Misdirection doesn't cost you 1 life.

Basic lands are a must, Back to Basics and Blood Moon are really bombs against you. Ok you have counters but a single Forest and Island can get you that Vital disenchant when your counters fail you, and they eventually will. Yavimaya Coast sucks so that's what should come out IMO.
  
How are 3 wastelands working out? Good? well 4 will be even better, If you can make the room and I now it is hard but they will help with some of the hardest matches you will have to face.

No Sylvan Library? Is Scepter worth it? Probably. You need to cut something for at least one, Sylvan is one of your best weapons against control and aggro-control, plus it stops you drawing your creatures and excess land. Really try to find room.

I personally wouldn't main deck Akroma. In most circumstances Akroma is better than superman, but Superman is good in 100% of situations. This is obviously a Meta-game call, but a carefully timed StoP will see beaten.

Abeyance is the obvious card for Scepter, stand only it is a decent card especially against control elements allowing you to push through Oath, or a hardcast Kill.

Sideboard time, I think this is the weakest part of your deck.

Hydroblast, Why? Naturalise will destroy Blood moon, Misdirection is infinitely better against every other Sligh can throw at you.

Funeral pyre and Argivian Find and both nice tech, but I think not game-breaking tech. I have seen both used before, and admittedly never tried using either but I have never needed to.

Orims chant? Yeah that goes nice with Scepter, but isn't this an Oath deck? What's the point? creatures don't concern you. Abeyance is much better because it stops what you need to stop and cantrips, so it better alone and with Scepter.

Naturalise and Crumble, Hmmm Chalice of the void is almost certainly going to be set at 2, so it will hose Oath, Scepter and Naturalise. Running a card like dismantling Blow will automatically get around this and save you a deck slot and give you 2 cards.

I don't think Fire and Ice fits the deck, its only very strong when you have Scepter, alone is not very good but it does give you an alternative kill. Your call.

I would only sideboard Nishoba if you face a lot of Sligh, if you face your average amount Sligh opponents and are confident with the match up then run Akroma only. Even so circle of Protection: Red is better verse Sligh anyway.

Do you really need 3 Swords to plowshare for cunning wish? I Have 1 main decked and 1 Sideboarded and this has always proven enough, really you only need it when you get odd creatures that can evade the oath trigger, stop your kill or kill you without attacking. There aren't many, other than that it serves to stop an 1st Negator.

Visara Sucks. It's slow at killing welders, and Akroma is often better verses Tog.
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Falc
Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2003, 06:43:37 pm »

Thanks for the feedback!  That's what I've been waitin for!  Thanks for answering my three main questions straight up.  They're pretty much the answers I was hoping for.  One question though...
Quote
Quote So I certainly wouldn't run 4, and I wouldn't gear the deck too much around this card, by that I mean don't run cards which are solely included because of there synergy with Scepter.
Am I doing this now or am I okay with my current choices?

For the rest, I'm just gonna go point by point...

I don't own any Mana Drain and if I did, they certainly would be in the deck.  I just can't afford them right now so good ole Counterspell is my only option.

Mis-D is probably better a choice than Stifle (which I tried and didn't like).  Should I drop the Leak's and run two Mis-D or just one to free up a slot?

I did recently alter the mana base to add two basic Islands.  I'm not sure I need the basic Forest because the best out for Bloodmoon is really to wish for Hydroblast, not Naturalize.  That way, I only need one basic in land in play instead of two.  That's the main reason why the Hydroblast has stuck around.

I only run three Wasteland because, quite frankly, my metagame is so scrubby that not many people play with a lot of non-basics.  The primary reason I even run three is because man-lands are popular in the group and can be a problem for the deck.

Isn't the Scepter (on Abeyance or Brainstorm) draw engine strictly superior to Sylvan Library?  Obviously, there's the mana cost involved with the Scepter, but over the long haul it does nasty things.  Perhaps if I cut the Mana Leaks for one Mis-D and one Sylvan?  Would that be a good idea?

I maindeck Akroma for two reasons.  The first is that I have to have a creature that can kill/outrace a Spiritmonger.  It's one of the most popular creatures in my meta.  Second, I don't face many white decks at all.  That's why I put the Morph in the board and maindecked the Akroma.  If I do showdown with a White deck, Superman comes to the plate in game two.

Sideboard time:

I already talked about Hydroblast - Bloodmoon.

I haven't gotten a chance to really use the Argivian Find yet, but it seems so logical to include.  As for the Pyre, it's great!  My opponents often go with the "I just won't play creatures" route to stall the game.  "EOT Wish for Pyre, Upkeep Oath up Akroma" is a game winner if I've ever seen one.

Wish for Chant can often lock my opponent out of the game.  If they don't have instant speed artifact removal in the maindeck, it's over.  They can't win.  Ever.  That seems like it's worth one sideboard slot to me.

My choice for Chalice hate was between DBlow and Crumble.  I chose Crumble because it's cheaper and imprintable in emergencies.  Obviously, the kicker on DBlow is amazing, but now you're talking nine mana to Wish for and cast DBlow during my opponent's end step.  Otherwise, you're gonna have to wait an extra turn or tap out during my own turn.  Is it really worth that big of a tempo loss?

As I said in the original post, I sided the three StP's so I could board two in and leave one as a Wish target.  What creatures do I fear that much?  Well, I hear Lacky into Siege-Gang and Piledriver is bad news.  That's why I'd like the option of bringing two StP to the deck post-board.

I don't want to seem like I'm just defending my choices here.  I hope I didn't come off that way.  Your comments and suggestions were exactly what I needed to hear.  I appreciate it.  A couple more quesitons:

With the Scepters in the deck, I feel I should bring back Sol Ring.  Should I drop a land, find something else to remove, or just leave it out?

You seemed to have quite a lot of issues with my sideboard.  How would you build a sideboard for this deck?  ie. What do you suggest?

And finally, do you feel this is an overall better strategy than more traditional builds?

Thanks again!

- Falc
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Darwin-Duck
Guest
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2003, 01:23:00 pm »

Maybe it's just my personal preference but I feel that every blue based control deck would benefit from the AK engine. As your deck lists stands now it has no real way of drawing cards exept a Storm/Abeyance on a Scepter or a FoF. Don't you find yourself running out of steam often?

Also, if you add AK you can run Intuition giving you more ways to fetch a Oath or a Scepter. ( assuming you keep 3 mainboard)

As for Sol Ring, defently run it. With out Drains and jewelry you could defently use the boost. I think I'd cut FoF for it so your can fetch it with Cunning Wish.

Ps: can you post a link to Queequeg's mini-primer?
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Queequeg
Guest
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2003, 02:45:12 pm »

I would rather you didn't post the link to my mini-primer  , I would rather update it first before people start attracting more attention to it, it was out of date when I posted it and that was a while ago. Plus it was a little bias towards my own meta.

OMG I completely didn't notice the lack of a Sol ring in your deck, put one In you mad bastard  

As for baseing your deck too much around Scepter.  I don't think that you have, I would personally run Impulse over Brainstorm especailly on scepter, over than that the only spell main board that is Scepter dependant is Abeyence. Abeyence is still a very strong card on its own and so I should think would'nt comprimise the build to any negative extent

Yes I would swap the 2 Mana leak for 2 Misdirection. Since Misdirection is stronger in Oath than many decks because the need to counter creatures based threats is less significant. Its certainly stronger than Mana Leak.

Naturalise, will solve more problems than a Hydroblast, when sideboard choices are tight choose the jack of all trades.

Sylvan Library is important beacause it dosn't require you to draw 2 cards to get it to work. Plus more importantly it stops you drawing akroma. I would personally run at least 1.

As for the spirit Monger issue, if you opponent drops a monger mid-late game you should be able to soft lock it with Weaver/Feeder. Then you can beat them down at your lesuire.

If monger turns up turn 2 , this situation is comparable with a early negator. If you are relying on Oathing up Akroma what happens if you oath up spike feeder instead? your on a tight clock and you can't afford to keep re-oathing. Instead isn't a better solution to swords it, then set up your Oath engine once you have the advantage. If you are experince early pressure like this then surely a main deck swords would be better.

You are defending your choices, but this is good whats the piont of a forum if you don't, just because I wrote a primer dosn't mean my opinion is any better than yours.

The problem I have with your sideboard is whilst you are running cool tech like Funeral pyre you are losing slots for siding against hard matches like suicide, Sligh and strong control stratergies (although Scepter argueeably makes the control stratergies better)

As for Scepter improving the orginal build, I can't comment As I have yet to try it out, After christmas I will be Buying some new cards, including Scepter. So perhapes I will update the primer then, or perhapes I will turn my attentions to developing EBA??? we will have to see what happens.

I would also have to work on a Scepter build before I could really compose and entire sideboard.

EDITWhilst the AK engine is excellent alone and with Scepter the graveyard will simply be recyled to often to remain effective, oathing is to inconsistant to rely on dumping AK's into the graveyard also\n\n

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Falc
Guest
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2003, 02:06:42 am »

@ Darwin:

Adding AK/Intuition means freeing up 6-7 maindeck slots just to have have "3UU - Draw 3 cards" and if I'm lucky, I might get to draw 4 cards again later.  Intuition would be nice to search out Oath, Scepter, or Wish, but there just isn't room.

@ Queequeg:

Here's an updated decklist:

// Falc's Unpowered Scepter Oath_Type1
//
    4  - Oath of Druids
    3  - Isochron Scepter
    3  - Abeyance
    4  - Brainstorm
    2  - Misdirection
    4  - Counterspell
    4  - Force of Will
    3  - Cunning Wish
    1  - Spike Feeder
    1  - Spike Weaver
    1  - Akroma, Angel of Wrath
    2  - Gaea's Blessing
    1  - Fact or Fiction
    1  - Balance
    1  - Enlightened Tutor
    1  - Mystical Tutor
    1 [RV] - Sol Ring
    1  - Library of Alexandria
    1  - Strip Mine
    3 [TP] - Wasteland
    1 [RV] - Island
    3  - Flooded Strand
    3  - Windswept Heath
    4 [RV] - Tropical Island
    4 [RV] - Tundra
    3 [RV] - Savannah
//
SB: 4  - Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1  - Hydroblast
SB: 1  - Argivian Find
SB: 1  - Stifle
SB: 1  - Abeyance
SB: 1  - Orim's Chant
SB: 1  - Naturalize
SB: 1  - Crumble
SB: 1  - Fire/Ice
SB: 1  - Morphling
SB: 1  - Phantom Nishoba
SB: 1  - Woodripper

I really want to squeeze in two Sylvan Library.  Would moving Fact or Fiction and a Misdirection to the sideboard be a good idea to make room?  Or should I just move one of these and go with a single Sylvan?

Obviously, Impulse is a better digger and better on a Scepter, but I run Brainstorm for two very important reasons... To protect me from discard and to put drawn creatures back in my library.

Quote
Quote The problem I have with your sideboard is whilst you are running cool tech like Funeral pyre you are losing slots for siding against hard matches like suicide, Sligh and strong control stratergies (although Scepter argueeably makes the control stratergies better)
I find it funny that you challenge my inclusion of Hydroblast in the board, yet list Sligh as a problem matchup.    I upped my Swords count to four which will allow me to board in three copies against Sligh and Sui and still have one to wish for.  That should stabilize those matchups.  What do you suggest I board against "heavy control" that will improve a deck already running three maindeck Abeyance?  A fourth Scepter?  More counter magic?

- Falc
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Queequeg
Guest
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2003, 02:29:53 pm »

If you really what to make room for a Sylvan Libarary, I would possibly cut a mana slot. This is more down to your judgement as Iam not sure how the deck plays regarding mana, but if you are happy to cut a land then do so. Other than that I would sideboard a misdirection in favour for a Sylvan and leave Fact or Fiction main board, if you want to include wishable card drawing and I suggest you do then Stroke Of Genesis this the best option instead of putting FOF in the sideboard.

Have you considered running a ration of Impulses to brainstorms, this often works in umpowered builds quite effectively. one for the play test I feel.

Obviously I am going to have to adress the Sligh match up in my primer.

Lets assume I win game 1 against a pritty much stardard sligh build using your deck, they stupidly attack with pups and such whilst burning me, then I oath up Akroma and kill them in 4 turns whilst playing a few tricks off Scepter.

In game 2 I make some sideboard changes,I think that the sligh player is going to be pritty cautious at casting creatures in the next 2 games and so I sideout weaver for Nishoba. I don't side in the plowshares because they are going to hold back critters and this would just be 4 dead slots, if I need one I can wish for it. I side In the single blast for somthing?

Lets say my alter ego is playing sligh, he is likely to have at least 4-6 Blasts at his disposal usally to adress mono-U control, Plus 4 rack and ruin to take out MUD. So My alter ego sides in 6 Blast for 4 Pups, and 2 Cadets. 2 Cadets and 2 other critters are sided out for 4 Rack and Ruin. Also Blood Moon is making a comeback so this could be a unpleasent possibility also.

In game 2 the Sligh player leaves no creatures in my upkeep, I can't Oath. Oathing Nishoba or Akroma is a dead plan. I have to options drop Scepter with Abyence, try to slow them down and wait until I can cast Nishoba ( a weak plan to say the least). Or Wish for funeral pyre. Funeral pyre is a dead plan, The sligh player will just burn it away. So Scepter it is, only theres a problem. I have to leave enough counters free to Keep Blood Moon off the table, stop Scepter getting racked, whilst keeping myself alive. Tricky considering Sligh now has 6 counters of its own.

Its ironic taht it's actually harder to use Rack and Ruin against your deck than a powered build, but sligh will drop a Shaman, kill scepter then burn the shaman if need be.

A single Hyrodblast does nothing for your match up wil Sligh.

If Sligh is big in your meta then you need to reconsider your sideboard options. Misdirection is not only good verses Sligh but also verse Sui, having 4 main board after siding against either is better than having a single hydroblast and a funeral pyre. Also COP:R would make it alot easier to sit back and wait for a Scepter and a Kill, somthin easy to hard cast, -Morphling most likely.

As for improving you game verses control, splashing Black for Duress is the strongest option, either that or a Gro conversion in the sideboard. A phid conversion is a possiblity, but it helps more with creaturless decks rather than strong control decks.
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