Considering that...A.) Magic is expanding faster than eve...

[centroles]

yes sligh might disappear from the metagame for a few months, but only because it is the cheapest easiest deck to build. EVERY magic player in history played sligh at one point in time. So much so that they got sick of the repetitiveness and boringness.

Sligh is a fast and powerful deck, even now in a chalice less metagame. It's just boring as hell to play, which is why people get sick of playing it so fast.

[Tripps]

Its agaisnt their reprint policy, even for a "Vintage only" type thing. Also, as previously mentioned, the game is also for collectors, and WotC would never do anything to compromise that. They have said so before, they don't want ot make people lose money.

[Smmenen]

Quote (David Hernandez @ Nov. 19 2003,14:17)Smmenen wrote:

Quote I think there is another solution.  Force the DCI to allow proxies of certain cards - the DCI can facilitate this by printing proxies for power cards - perhaps gold bordered like they do for the Championship decks.

Jacob Orlove wrote:

Quote Power Nine would make awesome judge's compensation foils. That might not have a huge impact on the scarcity, though.

I think both of these are excellent options.  

The foils would be worth a small fortune, and would be awesome for players IF the players actually got to keep them.  I get the feeling that the STORES would end up with these, and we would see them on eBay for $2,000 each.  Stores will offer the card winner a few hundred bucks cash on-the-spot, and the cards will never make it into circulation.

It's a great idea, but difficult to regulate.

The WoTC/DCI printed proxies are also a terrific idea, and would be easier to regulate.  I think the only drawback here comes down to PROFIT.  

WoTC would not make significant money on these, UNLESS they combined it with my idea of a "special pack" inside each and every Box of cards that come out in the "next release".  

So, it could be a "proxy pack" featuring the power-9. They could even print (in friendly gold letters) across the face of the card "Proxy: only valid in Vintage Tournament Play".

Dave.

Far from it.

If wizards printed Carl's Gencon deck in gold bordered they would sell it by the BOATLOADS.  People would keep coming back for more.  MORE MORE MORE.

Trust me on this.

Steve

[Tripps]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 19 2003,20:44)

Quote (David Hernandez @ Nov. 19 2003,14:17)Smmenen wrote:

Quote I think there is another solution.  Force the DCI to allow proxies of certain cards - the DCI can facilitate this by printing proxies for power cards - perhaps gold bordered like they do for the Championship decks.

Jacob Orlove wrote:

Quote Power Nine would make awesome judge's compensation foils. That might not have a huge impact on the scarcity, though.

I think both of these are excellent options.  

The foils would be worth a small fortune, and would be awesome for players IF the players actually got to keep them.  I get the feeling that the STORES would end up with these, and we would see them on eBay for $2,000 each.  Stores will offer the card winner a few hundred bucks cash on-the-spot, and the cards will never make it into circulation.

It's a great idea, but difficult to regulate.

The WoTC/DCI printed proxies are also a terrific idea, and would be easier to regulate.  I think the only drawback here comes down to PROFIT.  

WoTC would not make significant money on these, UNLESS they combined it with my idea of a "special pack" inside each and every Box of cards that come out in the "next release".  

So, it could be a "proxy pack" featuring the power-9. They could even print (in friendly gold letters) across the face of the card "Proxy: only valid in Vintage Tournament Play".

Dave.

Far from it.

If wizards printed Carl's Gencon deck in gold bordered they would sell it by the BOATLOADS.  People would keep coming back for more.  MORE MORE MORE.

Trust me on this.

Steve

If they printed the top 4/8, they make even more money, considering how diverse the top 8 was. I think they would at least do top 4 before they did just Carl's, thats usually the way they do Championship decks. But then again, "usually" rarely applies to vintage.

[symphony]

I've been playing magic since 1994. The reprint discussion is really old. And my opinion has always been the same. There should be no reprints. Look at it from this point of view, what will happen in 5 more years? Will newcome people who missed the reprint will be claiming for another reprint? And in 10 more years? The problem will be always the same. So a reprint will only calm the nowadays player anxiousness for power.

However a 5 proxy tournament does not hurt the enviroment neither in a long nor short terms, and allows deck construction with only a minimal part of the power or without any (of course, without any power, just 5 proxies are not enough for some deck, but not all decks have to be fully powered.)

Just my 0.2 euro-cents

[rozetta]

Like it was already mentioned, reprints of the old power cards would be an indication of the last breath for M:tg. I remember back in 1995 when prices for power were already "unreasonable", I had the mindset that they should reprint those cards. It was a more reasonable thought back then, since there was no type 2 and basically you either had power or didn't and got smacked by other decks. A little after this, around the time they stopped rotating duals, wheel, fork, sol ring, demonic and so on, it was pretty obvious we'd not see a return of those cards.

Here in Helsinki we only have sanctioned Type 1 events, meaning zero proxies. Over the past year and a half, we've gone from one or two pieces of power in the whole tournament to 60%-70% of participants (normally around 30 players) being partially, if not, fully powered. This just shows that it's a cascading effect - if some people have the means to build more competitive decks, others will follow. And obviously people around here have found ways of acquring it (which in Europe, if you're young and don't hold a credit card, can be difficult). To me, if your interest lies in a hobby such as Type 1 magic, and you're serious enough or excited enough about playing it, you'll find ways of acquiring the right tools to get the job done properly.

In conclusion, I'm not interested in seeing the power cards reprinted because I'd like to see this game continue for years and years to come.

Btw, is it me or did it seem like, when reading through this whole thread, that a couple of people were repeatedly copy-pasting text from previous posts in the same thread to answer new posts (not quoting, but actually, just copy-paste repeating themselves)?

[David Hernandez]

Smmenen wrote:

Quote
Far from it.

If wizards printed Carl's Gencon deck in gold bordered they would sell it by the BOATLOADS.  People would keep coming back for more.  MORE MORE MORE.

I agree.  

But what was being discussed were the proxy cards that WoTC prints, which i interpreted as those single-card "proxies" that have been printed in the past (like Tokens)...NOT full decks of cards.  

My point was that Wizards would need some kind of positive financial reason to do any kind of reprinting.  This is especially true of any power card reprint.

If they printed Vintage-Legal Championship Decks (or Top 4/Top 8), I'd buy a boatload of them myself.  

The only problem i see with complete deck reprints is that players would simply use the entire reprinted deck, which i believe would hurt the format (because the cards would actually be proxies).  Of course, WoTC could easily fix this by reprinting the decks with regular MTG backs, instead of the black/gold they've been using.

--Dave.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Quote In conclusion, I'm not interested in seeing the power cards reprinted because I'd like to see this game continue for years and years to come.

Why does reprinting the fifteen or so most expensive cards necessitate the game's death as a whole? I don't understand how anything that gets more people to play more formats could be so detrimental. Is the complaint that this is a collectible card game, and that anything 'betraying' the collectors' investment is intolerable? The example of baseball cards is valid here: just because a card is reprinted dozens of times does not diminish the value of the rookie card. Moreover, collectibility is only a small portion of the game. Unlike baseball cards, Magic cards have a functionality: actually playing the game.

@symphony: Your point is interesting because usually the anti-reprints argument is that it would be a last gasp, one-shot profit for WotC, after which they would never again have that windfall. If there is even more profit to be had from reprints further and further into the future, then this is not a death knell, it is a reasonable business move that pleases both the players and Hasbro.

@rozetta: The whole point of this discussion is that it is too difficult to acquire the cards. The current supply can only support a few hundred small, local metagames such as yours, at most, and this is not enough. Demand has risen; it is economic nonsense to ignore the desires of the customer base. There is ample evidence that players are not satisfied by the supply of Power: we already openly ignore sanctioned play with proxy tournaments, the only difference after reprints is that the 'proxies' would be real and WotC would be making money off them.

@David Hernandez: Pretty much any reprint would be amazingly profitable for WotC. Even in a hypothetical $100-200+ Anthologies-esque box with just the fifteen big ones (P9, LoA, Bazaar, Workshop, Abyss, Moat, Mana Drain) would sell incredibly well. If they made a Chronicles-like set of reprints including the big ones, they would sell cases endlessly.

[jcb193]

Quote (Dr. Sylvan @ Nov. 20 2003,10:04)Pretty much any reprint would be amazingly profitable for WotC.

Unless it leads to cannibalization of their other formats.

[Smmenen]

Quote (David Hernandez @ Nov. 20 2003,09:34)Smmenen wrote:

Quote
Far from it.

If wizards printed Carl's Gencon deck in gold bordered they would sell it by the BOATLOADS.  People would keep coming back for more.  MORE MORE MORE.

I agree.  

But what was being discussed were the proxy cards that WoTC prints, which i interpreted as those single-card "proxies" that have been printed in the past (like Tokens)...NOT full decks of cards.  

My point was that Wizards would need some kind of positive financial reason to do any kind of reprinting.  This is especially true of any power card reprint.

If they printed Vintage-Legal Championship Decks (or Top 4/Top 8), I'd buy a boatload of them myself.  

The only problem i see with complete deck reprints is that players would simply use the entire reprinted deck, which i believe would hurt the format (because the cards would actually be proxies).  Of course, WoTC could easily fix this by reprinting the decks with regular MTG backs, instead of the black/gold they've been using.

--Dave.

Dude, How would they use the whole deck if the rule was that you could only use the power nine!??


GOD people read what I say please!

Steve

[Azhrei]

Reprint everything in a Vintage legal only set!!!

And I said that years ago, even when I still had my cards, so nyaah!

Seriously though, the best argument against reprints I ever heard was that as soon as Magic starts to lose serious money, old power will be reprinted in an effort to spike interest in the game again. Until Magic stops making good money for Hasbro, there is just no incentive for them to waste such a good contingency plan.

[Eastman]

Quote
If wizards printed Carl's Gencon deck in gold bordered they would sell it by the BOATLOADS.  People would keep coming back for more.  MORE MORE MORE.

Trust me on this.

Steve

Steve you are absolutely correct here. Printing Vintage champs decks with different backs like they do World champs etc. would be huge for both the format and their sales.

We should think of a way to get Wizards to realize this.

Let me also caution that such a promotional printing would have to be treated exactly like the other Champs decks...a stipulation that 'the power 9 cards can be used as proxies' would not go well at WoTC and would keep them from trying out this excellent idea.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Not just different backs, but gold borders too.

Then, DCI could say:
For the Power Nine, you may use the ugly gold-bordered cards as legal proxies in Type One DCI sanctioned touranments.

It is a very well thought out compromise that would minimally affect the secondary market of the power nine, and ironically would increase the value of non power nine type one cards becuase stuff like Bazaar woudl then be in greater demand.

Steve\n\n

[David Hernandez]

Smmenen wrote:

Quote Dude, How would they use the whole deck if the rule was that you could only use the power nine!??


GOD people read what I say please!

Chill out Steve.  You are assuming that the rule would allow only the Power 9.  I read what you said, however you seem to have ignored all of the other posts.  There are people who want Workshops and Mana Drains (etc.), NOT JUST THE POWER NINE.

Also, I've been in complete agreement with what you have been saying, so your hostility is way out of line.

--Dave.

[Smmenen]

Frustration, not hostility.  Only becuase your post looked like you just hadn't read what I said.  As for those poeple - They are crazy.  I made a good clear compromise that would affect each interest (collector, player, retialer, dealer etc) but not in an overly negative way. They will never reprint Mana Drain and I wouldn't support that.  

I do not support any reprints.  That's not even what we are talking about.  We are talking about making a very narrow band of illigal cards - proxies, legal for tournament play.

Steve\n\n

[der_Meister]

I think wizards should reprint all the p9 cards and sell them for the same price as todays ebay price(maybe a bit cheaper). That way, the prices would not rise even more, and more then 30000 (if that is the correct amount) people could own a lotus.
I think the current price is reasonable, maybe a bit high. But as many others said earlier in this thread, thats part of the fun. I remember every mox i bought, and still look forward to the day when i finally will be able to buy a lotus.

[David Hernandez]

@smmenen: Ok, understood.  

There are really two areas of thought in this thread: the pro-reprint and the pro-proxy, although the pro-reprint group would probably be happy with the legalization of the Power-9 as proxies.

--Dave.\n\n

[Razvan]

Quote I think wizards should reprint all the p9 cards and sell them for the same price as todays ebay price(maybe a bit cheaper). That way, the prices would not rise even more, and more then 30000 (if that is the correct amount) people could own a lotus.

That would be utterly disgusting. They would make sick money... here's (say) 1.000.000 pieces of plastic, each selling for $200. That's $200.000.000 in their pockets, in like a week...

[Traveler]

Actually, G0dzilla, I would assume the theory that Wizards would be sued under is false/deceptive advertisement.  Having that policy posted on their website for years is a pretty strong advertisement that those cards won't be reprinted.  The government can sue under this theory in the amount of all profits made as a result of the deceptive advertisement.  Thus, it would be very hard for reprinting cards to be profitable for Wizards.

I do like the idea of Type 1 world championship decks with the gold borders.  I would buy them.  So long as tournament organizers look the other way when it comes to border color, they would be playable.

[rozetta]

I really think comparing Magic cards to baseball cards when considering value is wrong. Magic is a game and the cards which are better are worth more. Baseball cards are for collecting only. The reason why rookie cards are worth more than other cards is that they are not the same card, they are older, maybe rarer, have a different serial number, etc. and that is what collectors are interested in. If Magic cards followed the same logic, why aren't the other cards which went out of print when they rotated to Revised worth the same as the moxes and lotus, and for that matter, why is there a difference between the prices of the individual power 9? It's because of playability.

People want reprints of those "competitive" cards to play with. If Wotc reprinted Gauntlet of Might, people might not even bat an eyelid. It has the same rarity as the power cards, but it's not "competitive". That's exactly why the value of the original cards would be affected if they reprinted them.

[ineffible]

der-meister- I too remember every mox, and every piece of power including duals etc that I have bought or traded for. My biggest coup was a trade of 500-700 crap rares (my entire binder as a matter of fact) for an unlimited lotus, unlimted mox jet, maze of ith and 4 duals. Everyone I talked to (all my students and people I play cards with) thought I was nuts, 500-700 cards for 7?

David- I would not mind the power being printed as an official proxy, but I don't think you can make proxies legal until you have an "official" one from wizards. I get fed up now playing a deck with cards turned over that say black lotus, or replacement cards. What I mean by that is, I have a guy that plays in our sircle that says this extra giant growth is a mox jet or something like that.

My contention is that if you are going to allow proxies, maybe wizards could make an official proxy series (for whatever proxies they will allow in tournaments not just power).

rozetta- I disagree with your statementabout baseball cards. Yes they are for collectors, but magic can be too. also as for rookie cards, not all rookie cards are worth the same either. Good magic cards (playable) are worth more than those not playable, GOOD rookie cards of players that are good ie. barry bonds are worth more than rookie cards of rey ordonez or somebody who has really no talent. And finally, if what you said is entirely true, then a beta basic land would not cost 500 times the amount of a mirrodin basic land. (approximately $5.00 to $.01
   The bottom line is both cards can be collected.

just my .02 I am not trying to insult anyone.

[Tetre]

I'm somewhat of a new player to Magic (I started playing last year).

I started with 0 during odyssey block, and not only had to learn the rules of the game, but all of the active mechanics as well.

After playing draft and standard, I realized that the sets rotate so quickly for standard, that I couldn't really keep up in the format (It's a time thing, not a money thing).  

I decided that while I like Magic as a game and social event, I wasn't going to be able to keep up with the environment. I subsequenly decided to play exclusive Vintage.

I did a few large trades with some of the players with those cards, and started to buy singles to augment my deck (Ya, I'm the same Tetre who posted about Parfait Post Mirroden on "the Other Site").

So my collection is not that large (maybe 5,000 cards), but I have been moving towards the "Power Cards".  

Even as a "newer" player, I do NOT wish to see proxies become part of the vintage scene.  I don't mind not having the P9 (althought I have to say I do have a LoA, and will be buying at least the Ancestral and possibly a mox tomorrow).  Not having access to all of the "holy grail" of magic has made me work hard at adapting the "power" decks into those decks for which I can acquire the cards. I believe that this has made me a better magic player, than if I just went to the store and paid 100, 200 whatever...for a full set of proxies to build the best Long/keeper, etc.

Having the cards does not make the player good, but a good player will be better able to appreciate (and exploit) the better cards that much more.

Maybe I'm lucky since I get to decide what I want on a regular basis (I discuss my purchases with my playgroup), and then I buy the cards. But one thing I do know, I would not be as good a player today, if I had instant access to cards I didn't really understand.

I'm not too sure if I made any sense here, but it is my opinion.

Tetre
Power does redefine the game into "haves and have nots", but wthout it, the vintage world would consist of 3 Rock/Paper/Scissors decks....is THAT good for the environment?

[Dr. Sylvan]

@jcb193: I believe I already made an argument that the reprint would not significantly affect the quantity of players in the other formats earlier in the thread. What is your counterargument?

Quote (Tetre @ Nov. 20 2003,14:30)Power does redefine the game into "haves and have nots", but wthout it, the vintage world would consist of 3 Rock/Paper/Scissors decks....is THAT good for the environment?

Chalice Keeper, Chronic, UB Dragon, Monoblack Dragon, Fish (variants), Long, GAT (variants), Hulk, wMUD, Stacker 3, OSE, Chalice Black, Madness...this isn't even everything and I count thirteen. Even counting Keeper/Scepter/OSE as the same deck (which they are not), and saying both Dragons are the same, I still named ten off the top of my head, sticking to fairly competitive archetypes.

Reprints or not, the myth of a miniscule number of viable decks in a fully powered metagame has been disspelled.

I would like to add that the budget-makes-you-learn-better argument is quite misguided. What makes a player better is playing more and more, against better and better players. Not being forced to work with a distinctly subpar cardpool. Let's step out of our Vintage hats for a moment and compare this to Sealed Deck. When you open utter crap in a Sealed event, you whine about it in your tourney report and it has nothing to do with your skill; the other guy just got handed better cardboard. The point of reprints is to make winning less about who knows how to finagle Power off Ebay and more about playing the actual game.

Azhrei said it: the best reason not to reprint a Vintage-legal-only set is that they're saving it as a contingency plan. Is there a more compelling reason?

[BuboniC]

Here's the reason why it won't happen: WotC makes money off people playing T2- not T1. They rely on T2 players buying packs, Boxes and after each set rotates out they have too change all their decks. People play T2, Extended, and 1.5 because they can't afford power- and if they could afford it- T1 would be exsessively more popular- and Wizards of the Coast would have too resort too making big T1 tournaments other than origins and the Pro Tour. Which would lose them money than having all 3 of these in tornaments It might make you happy- but you are just an iinvestor- and its all about the buisness.

[Ifflejink]

I believe that the proxy idea would do nothing but help Type 1. I've heard most of my friends say "I'm not paying $200 for a piece of cardboard!", and that attitude keeps type 2 players from switching to type 1, or someone even playing type 1 in the first place. I've been playing for five years, (nine months competetively) and I don't have and wil most likely never get power, so I don't have much of a chanch in a powered metagame unless I metagame my whole deck or play budget Long.dec. And I don't want new and budget players faced with that same dillema.

[jpmeyer]

Type 1 prices just keep getting more inflated.  Now, if WotC produced huge numbers of these reprints, say 200 million cards (not 200 million Lotuses, 200 million cards printed total,) which while only being about half of the size of the print run of an expansion, would be four times the size of the number of A/B/U cards printed.  If they don't print a number of cards somewhere around the number they would print for a small expansion, you have just another collector's item, which still doesn't really serve to help to get many new players.

Remember, Type 1 was only cheaper than Standard when power topped off at $100 each (except Lotus of course,) power rares topped off at around $30, and Standard decks required 30 rares, many of which were chase cards.  Even if they printed enough reprints to drop power prices in half, $125 for one Mox is still probably more money than someone's entire Standard deck is worth and that $60 for a Workshop or Mask is as much as a playset of even the most expensive chase rares.  Hell, if the value is a linear relation to the number available, then my 200 million card reprinting would still probably make Black Lotus worth $100 and Moxes worth $50, which is still far too much for any single card if you're trying to get more players involved.  You'd probably need to get the value to about $20 each to make it legitimate (which would probably make the decks worth as much as pre-rotation Extended decks or Standard decks during expensive periods, such as Invasion/MM.)\n\n

[iccarus]

Being the owner of a full power set, I have many mixed feelings on this issue.

To begin, I would love to see a vibrant metagame of T1 players when I go to other stores and cities.  I tend to see areas where only a few players have T1, and unless they allow proxies, almost never have tournaments.  It's held back to mostly casual players who never focus too much on it because there is no competition.

Or, I see places where nobody has power and T1 barely exists because all of the players are too new to understand.  Or people still play T1 without all the power and I end up ticking everybody off in a tournament setting when I pull out a powered deck.

However, most people who don't have power, don't have it for a few reasons:
1. They don't want to put the money in to it
2. They don't have the money
3. They are too new to the game to want/understand T1
4. They play in an area that doesn't really create a need to own it.

The point is, those that want to compete in a T1 environment are typically faced with a healthy metagame of that type already.  If T1 is strong, they will have the motivation to get the cards.  If standard is more popular, then it will remain the common sight.  I've moved alot in the past few years and have gone from a mixed metagame, to a virtually powerless one, and now to an non-existent one

The point is, reprinting the P9 or other top cards is not going to do much for the game, other than de-valuating the existing cards.  Yes, unpowered players might drool at the thought of getting cheap alternatives...but I think you'd find that most of those players who own these cards and aren't hording them would be royally pissed.  Alot of work went into getting my power.  I saved up a ton/sold cards/traded my ass off to get my set.  If I do well in a tournament because I have a powered deck, it's because I've put the time into getting the cards I need to build a strong deck.  If you want to compete in an environment that is "affordable", then go hit the T2 scene.  

Also, T1 will never be on the pro-tour circuit.  Wizards has no reason at all to want to make the format more "affordable" for the average player.  The big money is in the standard/extended/limited arena.  The newer stuff is what keeps money coming in, not cards that were printed a decade ago and just keep changing hands.  Wizards spent the money they made off those cards a long time ago.

So, in answer to the original question, I would NOT support a reprint of power cards in any format.  Wizards can just print all the watered down versions they want to (chrome mox, time spiral, etc.) and that should be it.

[g0dzillA]

Quote (Traveler @ Nov. 20 2003,10:57)The government can sue under this theory in the amount of all profits made as a result of the deceptive advertisement.

The thing is, WotC isn't the one profiting from the inflated prices of older cards. It's individual players and card shop owners. No legal assertion could possibly be supported that suggests that WotC deliberately misadvertised in an attempt to make more money, as even if they had intentionally "advertised falsely", they haven't gained anything from it.

The only people potentially hurt financially by reprints would be people who shelled out hundreds of dollars to private sellers, not to WotC, and any lawsuit brought against WotC by them wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

[Loci]

Almost everyone is assuming that the cards are just expensive. Here in the Netherlands they are also very hard to acquire. Buying them overseas almost doubles the price due to taxes and secureshipment costs.

But perhaps we are looking in the wrong direction. Need versus availability is what created this issue. There is a very limited amount of power available. Why do people want power? Because it gives you an edge in the game against non powered and an even chance against powered.
Six of the power nine are fast mana cards. Certain things might become a lot easier if it was decided to allow just three or four fast mana cards in a deck.
I mean having all the moxen would still be an advantage but not a neccesity. Prices would be the same, the gap between powered and non powered would be much smaller, 5 proxy could still be five proxy, no reprints needed and it would do something about the speed in the game as well.

[Traveler]

Magic is a collectable card game.  Its fun to collect the expensive cards, and be able to do something with them than stare at them like you would a Micheal Jordan rookie card.  The high prices are part of the fun as evident by people remembering how they aquired cards.  I still remember getting my time walk for $20 and a moat many years ago.

I don't see the point in outlining the fabulous US state court system that Wizards would be sued in if they reprinted reserved cards, but its too costly to be sued to be worth it.  Practially speaking, reprints will never happen, and again I say, that makes the point of the thread rather pointless.