Considering that...A.) Magic is expanding faster than eve...

[centroles]

Considering that...

A.) Magic is expanding faster than ever and there are simply too few powercards that very few people can ever feel like they can build optimal decks or even competitive decks without proxying

B.) Any powerless budget decks that may have been able to keep up with tier one decks (sligh, stompy etc) are all but dead.

Would you support it if all of the power nine/overexpensive cards were reprinted in a nice vintage only legal gift box with cards that look vastly different and uglier than the originals. That way, more people get to enjoy brokenness and yet the originals would still remain valuable, priceless collectables. Considering that alpha and beta cards are so much more expensive than unlimited ones, it seems unlikely that this would even hurt the value of the originals much at all.

I know it probably won't happen so please don't act like a smartass by saying something stupid like it won't happen. What i want to know is if you would be opposed to this if it did happen and if so, why?

Sure 1% of the vintage community might still lose out a little bit on this. But that's the sacrifice a very small amount of people will have to make in order for a very large amount of people to get acces to those cards needed by any vintage player that hopes to have some amount of flexibility and playtesting options as to the decks they can play. They knew the risks when they bought the cards, cards rise and drop in price all the time.

[Mox Monkey]

I, for one, would not be in favor of such a policy. part of what sets Type 1 apart from an overglorified extended is the chance to use all the power. if everyone was given the chance to buy power without a large investment, not only would the value and collectability of Magic cards as a whole come into question, but it also would seriously damage the coolness factor of Type 1 play. on a related note, not all budget decks are dead. while sligh and stompy may have breathed their last (which might not be true anyway, time will tell), fish is still going on strong even without AR and TW, and deks such as pox and suicide can still be a threat.

[Jakedasnake]

Well, I really don't think it would be fair. Struggling for the money to get power is hard, but once you achieve it, it feels worth it.

Plus, the cost of power would drop, and TONS of people would lose money.

Budget aggro ISNT dead. New builds of Sligh are being developed, and Chalice Black is very strong.

Also, most tournaments allow some number of proxies, so you usually don't need power in the first place.

Believe me, the value would be hurt. Who would spend $200 a piece when you can buy a whole set for about $100?

[Sytupal]

to be honest  i don't own a single piece of power.  I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.  I work at The Gathering on Cape Cod and i have to say that it's rather difficult to get a piece of power in the store and keep it in.  We have our sources, but with prices now a days it's hard to find power to make money off.  ~ Anyways ~  I'm not saying i want a "reprint" of power in a nice little collecters type 1 usable only set, actually it's quite the opposite.  I'm actually saying quite the opposite.  I know the difficulty of getting power, but i also know that many players will agree with me when i say i enjoy knowing that my deck is competitive enough to play and win against most (if not all depending on the draw) tier 1 decks out there.  It's simply unpowered yet competitive enough to do that.  If power ran rampant it would throw everything off balance

(to all of us devoted to vintage and think type 2 is the saddest attempt at unique deck building possible for the most part - you take cards from three sets, unlike vintage (80 gazillion sets - way too late at night to take the time to subtract unglued and chronicles etc) and make a deck with the most synergistic cards out there, personally i think that kind of deck building is easier than those of us who have been playing and tweaking the same type of deck since like tempest or those of us who want to create a completely knew style of deck with most sets included. that takes a lot more knowledge about the game then remembering three sets.)  
Type 1 would run rampant with


(i felt these approximations would be very reasonable.  
1 million powered long.decs,

2 million stax/WelderMud variants,

and

about 10 competitive aggro decks,

because people would assume aggro to be dead)  Aggro is dead enough already, reprinting power would make it even more dead.  Everyone can make a good staxs or dragon build having access to power ~ Dragon: hardest cards to get besides vintage power?   Bazaars.   wow look i have 5 slots open..  nope wait. 4 bazaars later still have 1 open and this is the most optimal build ever.

[jazzy kat]

Obviously, it would suck for me, and worse for others with a full set of the P9.

I only have 4 of the p9, +drains, and LOA but I can have a fully powered keeper or long in proxy 5. Which is pretty OK by me.

COTV is a motherfucker and does nearly kill budget(i.e. no big money cards) decks, but then again how often did budget decks win (excluding fish, which has some power in it if I recall) in the past year in big tourneys anyway? (I hear the budget players loading their flamethrowers)

The only thing I could suggest is a proxy 8 or 9 tournament giving everyone access to just about every deck. But you still have to shell out big $$ for drains, workshops, and bazaars so you would be limited. If this were the case then I would just say to many people to play 1.5, I feel it is a more consistent and well balanced format anyway.

I like t1 because it is so broken that anything can happen, and that element of randomness is what I love (that is why I am in favor of restriction over bannings).

If I want a less broken format, then 1.5 would be my bread and butter, because I grew up with most of those cards anyway because the P9 was before my time.

My only non condescending suggestion, play 5 proxy like me, or play 1.5.

JK

[Sytupal]

I play budget.  I stand a chance.  I agree with Jazzy in almost every aspect that he's suggested lol ~ no flaming here.   I know that i will NEVER do as well percentage wise then keeper, stax, mud, dragon.

You know what though, when i challenge a fantastic(no joking here my friends) keeper player to play with a very optimal POWERED deck against my 2 powered(due to proxy) monoblack chalice-ish (with obviously my own tweaks) and win at a substantial percentage above 50 - it makes me feel proud to not own a single piece of power and know that with the right round matchups in big tournaments, not playing against scrub aggro or stoopid madness, and win my first few rounds thinning out the winners enviornment to the top tier 1 decks, that i will stand a chance.  I'm proud knowing that i can do this.
Again - No Flames -  Just Agreement with some entertaining argument attached.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I now own two Moxes and three Mana Drains, as well as seventeen dual lands, and I'm working on getting more. I am still in favor of reprints, as even if I became fully powered, I would want the reprints to exist in hopes of making Vintage much more widely played.

The originals would take a price dip initially. However, this is one case where an increased supply can cause even more demand in the future for the originals. Threads about the pimpness of decks abound, and the rarer versions will always be worth more. Even for Type 2 chase rares that will be worth little inside of a year or two, people will pay between two and three times more for a foil. BB Balance is still a dozen times as expensive on StarCity as a 4th Edition Balance. The reprints themselves would be in the $20+ range as singles unless they printed a ridiculous amount of them, and I don't think an UNL piece of Power would ever fall below $100 again. Like I said, I would predict the originals' prices rebounding as more people enter Type 1 and want to pimpify their collections.

Let's not forget that many of the people who own Power are dealers, and that reprints which would circulate through the secondary market at high value for eternity would be immensely profitable.

Also, it's become totally clear to everyone these past few months that budget strategies, while they can get lucky, are fundamentally dead. Fish is the best, and there are others that make it perhaps as high as tier two, but they're no longer major contenders. The fact that economic status has such an incredible and systematic influence on success in this format besmirches all our claims to be intellectual and skill-testing.

[xrizzo]

The worst part of reprinting power is the effect on the hardcore vintage players.  If your pieces of cardboard lose value ($200+ in most cases for power now) it will be very difficult to play and/or invest in the game any longer.

As much as Vintage has grown the last year or two, I don't think the new people alone could sustain the game without the reminiscince and wisdom from older players.

[Sytupal]

What could aggro or no "tier 1" decks(as of this moment) do with a set of power in order to make the deck better a competitor.  IT just doesn't work..  I play in a five proxy enviornment when a big tournament comes around.  It's always 5 proxy.  Not a single sligh, ankh sligh, trash deck "fully powered"(woohoo!! yeah power. or no.) made it passed round two win wise. then they had their own little deal after like round three.. they didn't stand a chance. a full set of power would make people want to play oh yeah woohoo only those current "tier 1" decks. and then the type one system would be so systematically F*CKED up that nothing besides a banning of any card above the average price of like 50 bucks can be played...  I don't like this thread... It causes me to get angry.. i don't like anger..
Mods... help me..

[firebird365]

I believe that reprinting power would have a devestating effect on Vintage, and it would change into what Extended is now (pre-ban) - a netdecking cesspool. Right now, I think that the environment is generally OK. The proxy tournaments allow 'amateurs' to play with cards that they normally couldn't otherwise (in tournament play, at least), but I think budget players still stand a chance, barring a fully-powered Long.dec field or something of the sort.

I think that several things would happen if the reprint occurred:

1) The prices of the older powered cards would take a HUGE hit

and

2) The format would become boring.

Although what Dr. Sylvan says is true about the older versions of the cards being worth more, I doubt it would prevent the fall in prices. Part of the intrigue with owning the power 9 is being able to play with them, and having that somewhat special advantage over your opponent.

Some may argue that it's a game, and that two players should each have an equal chance. I believe this is partly true, but in all honesty, Magic is a game based around devotion. If a player is willing to spend $200+ for a card, that player should be able to enjoy a special advantage that spending that much money grants. If another player wants that advantage, I welcome that player to spend their $200 to get it. Personally, I don't have the income (read: 14 years old, mowing lawns.   ) to spend that much money on anything, and therefore don't play with the higher-priced cards.

Second, I think the format would become much like Extended is at the moment. Most people would be playing degenerate combo decks or decks like Stax that, due to the nature of the (expensive) cards included, have a bigger advantage. If the power cards were reprinted, these decks would be commonplace, not to mention the people that spent their cash on older moxen, just to be able to play with them would be pretty pissed.  

It would be a different story if there weren't reasonable alternatives, like Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors to Mishra's Workshop, or Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond to the moxen. I realize that it's not the same, but you get what you pay for, and I dont think that should change this late in Magic's lifetime.

[z28camaro]

Without a doubt the price of power would go way down.  It would go down exponentially and then you have a small but devoted crowd of pissed off vintage players.  You may say ahhhhh!!! there aren't many of them besides our business has grown becuase of the reprint.  
Have you ever seen a riot?  I'm not talking about your local college riot of toilet paper and sticks.  I'm talking about chaos.  Did you ever count the number of people part of it?  It is a very small amount compared to the rest of the population yet they can wreck serious havoc.  I'm not saying that riots will break out like April 26, 1992 but I'm saying that the vintage community would make Wizards pay for this ludicrious idea.  
I have my group of type one players that get approached by the type two players and get asked, "What's that?" as they point to your Mox Saphire.  Of course they pick it up and ask, "Why are you playing this?"  Then you slap them and take your card back laughing at the poor scrub.  Could you imagine these little dorks entering our beloved format netdecking to the point where the only thing played is Long, Keeper, and Hulk?  
I won't have it!

Z

[ineffible]

This is a tough question. I have 6 of the power 10 and it does feel like an accomplishment when I get each one. I also have 4 mana drain and 43 dual lands. And again it felt good to be able to obtain these cards even though I started playing around the time of Mercadian Masques and got my ass kicked on a daily basis.

That being said, I think reprints can help and hurt. It can help for those who have started playing recently, and for those who seriously have to play budget decks because they absolutely have nothing to trade or no cash for the power. It will hurt the game in two ways that I can see... 1. The power would obviously go down in value. 2. Every joe schmo would be able to get any deck they wanted and we'd have an influx of a certain type of deck etc.

I think with the reprint of the power we may have to see some changes (bannings and restrictions) to the overall game faster than sooner rather than later.

just my .02

[Toad]

Why would Wizards reprint cards that the DCI would have to preemptively ban from every format they support (Extended and Standard) ? They don't reprint Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares or even Counterspell because those cards are considered as being overpowered in Constructed. Now, how would they feel about Ancestral Recall and Mana Drain ?

[David Hernandez]

I am in favor of a reprint, and I already own all of the power cards.

I agree with Toad (that it would force the DCI to preemptively ban an entire set from regular formats), however i think that the boxed set could be considered a special "Type I Kit" (or something like that).

Since the cards are already banned/restricted, there could be a one line announcement that states that the set of cards would only be allowed in Type 1 play.

I paid a lot of money for my cards, but i believe it would be better for the format if the playing field were more level.  

No matter what, I think the point is moot because Wizards issued a written statement that they would not reprint.  The statement probably qualifies as a written agreement between them and the dealers/owners of existing power cards, and they could open themselves up to a lawsuit.

Anyway, i once suggested that Wizards reprint a special 15-card pack that included the power 9 plus a LOA, Workshop, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Wheel of Fortune, and another big card.  

Then, they could put ONE of these packs in each BOX of cards, so that if you bought a BOX you were guaranteed a set of power.  They would make a fortune in sales.  

I would personally buy a CASE to cover my kids with power cards and mana drains.

--Dave.

[Diddler]

Umm, haven't they already done that?  I know you guys are talking about something slightly different, but Collector's Edition is a reprint of the P9.

[ineffible]

diddler- good point, I would not mind them making another collectors edition however. I mean it is very difficult to find the older cards inexpensively (I am not one who should talk as I do get some of the older cards) but it would be cool to be able to have some of the older variations (as a collector I mean)

I also collect baseball cards and have been doing so for nearly 22 years and the variations of older cards is what keeps me collecting (reprints and such) so I think a collectors edition for Magic would be cool. They did it once why not again...

[Sytupal]

but you don't simply just use collector's edition in type 1~ they are not legal.  If DCI was to reprint them making them a separate "Power Nine Collector's Edition Type One use Only" it would have to have rounded corners and same size as the originals.  Collector's edition lacks the corners.

From what i see this thread is meant to be  
"Why won't wizards reprint the power nine in a usable state so that people don't need to own the originals in order to play with them.  CE edition is just like using a proxy.   If you don't have the card you can't play it.

[Godder]

If Magic is to become a classic game along the lines of Monopoly, Scrabble or Chess, a reprint isn't just desirable, it's a necessity (along with a few other things, such as getting the DCI away from WotC control).

Likewise, the Ferrett was reasonably close to the mark (IMO) when he wrote an article that basically said that when was the only question, not if, with the likely reason being as something to kickstart declining Magic sales some time in the future.

[Razvan]

Quote Plus, the cost of power would drop, and TONS of people would lose money

Yes, and no. I do actually feel bad for the people that spent painstaking ammounts of time to aquire their power 9.

I feel less bad for the people with high-paying jobs that just shelled $1500 (let's say) for their set of 9.

I absolutely will dance the happy chicken dance for hours at the "plight" of those greedy stores (those "fucking" greedy stores, rather), that bid on every piece of power on eBay, then hoard them, waiting for the price to go up, and then, finally, start 10 auctions selling Mox X.

You know what, I don't even blame these stores. I blame those players that, instead of actually giving to the community, hope to squeeze an extra $20-30 by posting it on eBay, so that those stores may bid and none of us "regular joes" can afford.

Anyhow, back to the original question.

I do doubt that any of these cards will see re-print. When they do, I think it will be a clear sign that Wizards has run out of ideas. The basic editions, at least, allows people to pick up the game. They start with Scathe Zombies, and Scaled Worm and Shivan Dragon, and when they figure out that it might not be the best strategy, then they at least have learned lesson 1.

But when I see a set with Power9 in them nowadays, I think it's a clear message from Wizards: "We have no more ideas for Magic, so we will just throw out something that might have ridiculous record sales, and that's it."

I might be wrong...

[ineffible]

Quote (Sytupal @ Nov. 18 2003,08:21)but you don't simply just use collector's edition in type 1~ they are not legal.  If DCI was to reprint them making them a separate "Power Nine Collector's Edition Type One use Only" it would have to have rounded corners and same size as the originals.  Collector's edition lacks the corners.

From what i see this thread is meant to be  
"Why won't wizards reprint the power nine in a usable state so that people don't need to own the originals in order to play with them.  CE edition is just like using a proxy.   If you don't have the card you can't play it.

I understand what you are saying. I was mentioning from a collectors standpoint, it might be cool to be able to have the old art forms. Me as a collector would get them for that reason.

I already have 6 of the 10 power and eventually will get around to getting the rest but for now 6 is fine with me. But that being said I still would like to be able to have the original art on some of the other cards without paying a buttload for cards I may or may not use.

[centroles]

The original post was... Would you support it if all of the power nine/overexpensive cards were reprinted in a nice vintage only legal gift box with cards that look vastly different and uglier than the originals. That way, more people get to enjoy brokenness and yet the originals would still remain valuable, priceless collectables. Considering that alpha and beta cards are so much more expensive than unlimited ones, it seems unlikely that this would even hurt the value of the originals much at all.

this thread is more about the impact of having more people being able to use power cards than it is about just reprints neccesarily. the same ends could be reached by say running 10 proxy tournaments instead of 5 proxy tournaments or no proxy tourneys in both casual and competitive metagames etc.

I know it probably won't happen so please don't act like a smartass by saying something stupid like it won't happen. What i want to know is if you would be opposed to this if it did happen and if so, why?

Now here are my reasons for supporting reprints...

Vintage's growth is stagnated greatly by the limited availability of these power cards. The vast majority of vintage players don't own power. And there's no doubt about it, there are maybe two relatively budget decks left (unpowered fish and unpowered black) that can even hope to have a shot in a metagame with powered decks. And unpowered black is hardly viable in a powered metagame as it's practically an autoloss against artifact decks. I keep hearing people say, no power isn't neccesary, people can still play fish. But forcing unpowered players to have to choose from two decks isn't a good thing.

If anything, it stagnates the format. I see it all around me, more and more people are and will continue to leave vintage and probably magic altogether as more and more budget decks are squeezed out. There are simply too few power cards and too few even remotely competitive unpowered decks to choose from to keep the interests of vintage players for long.

They will get sick of having to stick to one of two viable decks. They will get sick of not being able to significantly modify these decks or try new things since without power, they are forced to stick to the cheapest fastest cards.
If reprints occured, vintage would be much more widely played. Many of the players who left it because of lack of being able to compete unless they stuck to one of two decks, of not being able to experiment will return. It would indeed be better for the format if the playing field was more level.

There is no unbeatable deck in magic, there's no denying that. There are many powerful decks that all balance each other out. Unfortunately, essentially all but two of them require a large percentage of the power cards, and the two exceptions still would benefit greatly from power and are also not quite on the same level.

If people get access to all the cards, then yes maybe for a few weeks or so, there will be an explosion in the number of long, welder mud, dragon, keeper, hulk, mask, stax, and stacker decks. But very soon, now that the ability to use power cards allows people to get away with modifying other components of their decks, possibily trying higher casting cost spells, the amount of experimentation that goes on will soon explode as well.

Everyone will be trying to modify their decks for the metagame, people will stumble across new tech and entirely new decks. Where as most competitive budget players were stuck with virtually stagnant black or fish decks before and any level of experimentation in a competitive metagame was left up to the small minority of players who had the power cards that trying new variations, higher casting cost cards, and radical new combos required, everyone would be able to.

Anyone who doesn't think having access to power doesn't boost the playability of most decks significantly is a moron.
Decks like high tide or pandeburst etc. are unplayable in the current format without power cards. But so few people have power that those that do find it irrestible to just netdeck for the most part to play already optimized tier one decks instead of trying new stuff out. If everyone could play these decks, then the coolness factor would quickly wear then.

Think about it, there was time when sligh was one of the best decks you can play. And initially a lot of people did play sligh, but the blandness factor, the idea that you're just playing with the same old deck everyone else uses caused a lot of people to stop and move on to other decks, even if the cards were harder to acquire. The same would happen to decks like welder mud and dragon.

And everyone would instead be trying to find new combos and new variations that break their local metagames in half. New tech would get discovered a lot faster. And blatantly broken decks would also become far more apparent and would get weeded out a lot faster. Winning tourneys won't be decided by who can afford to spend the most money to afford to net deck welder mud. they would be decided by understands their metagames tha best, understand the game the best. Skill would matter again.

Thus reprints would actually lead to a healthy increase deck variations and diversity. Where as it took players years to come up with decks like prison decks, with a lot more people trying new stuff and new combos out, progress of the community would increase faster than ever thought possible.
and as godder stated: "If Magic is to become a classic game along the lines of Monopoly, Scrabble or Chess, a reprint isn't just desirable, it's a necessity (along with a few other things, such as getting the DCI away from WotC control)."

If you want vintage to expand, if you want new tech to be discovered faster, if you want an ever changing, diverse format, you want reprints to happen. Such a policy would cause magic itself to grow more popular, sales will increase, more people would start collecting cards and wizards would make more money.

And the fact is, not only would wizards make a ton of money say including a set of power only vintage legal cards with every box or so but the increased interest in type one would  undoubtedly lead to an increase in the number of collectors which may actually increase the value of the originals.

I honestly don't think the originals would take a significant drop in price, Dr. Sylvan said it better than me:

"This is one case where an increased supply can cause even more demand in the future for the originals. Threads about the pimpness of decks abound, and the rarer versions will always be worth more. Even for Type 2 chase rares that will be worth little inside of a year or two, people will pay between two and three times more for a foil. BB Balance is still a dozen times as expensive on StarCity as a 4th Edition Balance. The reprints themselves would be in the $20+ range as singles unless they printed a ridiculous amount of them, and I don't think an UNL piece of Power would ever fall below $100 again. Like I said, I would predict the originals' prices rebounding as more people enter Type 1 and want to pimpify their collections.

Let's not forget that many of the people who own Power are dealers, and that reprints which would circulate through the secondary market at high value for eternity would be immensely profitable.

Also, it's become totally clear to everyone these past few months that budget strategies, while they can get lucky, are fundamentally dead. Fish is the best, and there are others that make it perhaps as high as tier two, but they're no longer major contenders. The fact that economic status has such an incredible and systematic influence on success in this format besmirches all our claims to be intellectual and skill-testing. "

It's probably a mistake asking this question here as I would say a large number of the people here probably do have power and wouldn't want to risk these cards falling in values eventhough there is very little reason to believe they would. I think there is a very good chance that the value won't drop significantly and the growth in vintage would actually lead to increase in the collectibility of these cards and increase their value.

in response to goblin headbanger's post below:

a. GAT did stimulate a great deal of deck building. in fact stax and a host of new decks came into being as a result of people to find a way to hate out GAT. and the fact is, that even during GAts dominance, there were many decks that had average to favorable match ups against it, the problem was that all these decks required the use of power.

b. the problem with GAt wasn't that it was unbeatable, the problem was that the decks that were strong enough to deal with it required the use of power. and very very few people have access to power. thus there was an outcry.

c. you maybe true maybe true. in an environment where everyone has power, there will INITIALLY be a large number of long, workshop, dragon, hulk decks. if anyone of these decks is so much more powerful than the others that it does end up dominating (possibly long though that deck requires a tremendous amount of skill), then surely, you would agree that lion's eye diamond deserves a restricting as smedden, one of the most skilled players of long.dec advocates. this is the only way to learn which cards are just powerful and which actually break the metagame.

d. once the metagames actually start being littered with good decks instead of the crap that people get away with playing now. players will get more skilled and there's little chance goblins would win any tourneys. BUT people WILL get sick of the playing the same decks eveyrone else plays and will start experimenting and exploring new tech, invent new decks and concepts and truly evolve type 1.

e. you people complain that so many people are bad players. how the hell are they supposed to be good players if so few people have power cards. you can't learn to play long.dec if you can't use power cards and very few people you know can afford to either. the community will become more skilled if they are given the tools to, if they were given the oppurtunity ot play with and against powered decks.

if powered players want to get satisfaction from their wins, surely they would welcome more people having access to power.

if players like the feeling they get from beating powered decks with powerless decks, no one's forcing them to use the reprints are they?

many good players often complain the so many vintage players are scrubby and inexperienced. the fact is, the only way you can get better is if you can play with powered cards and play against against powered decks. most players don't welcome proxys. and you won't get better just by playing the same person or same few people over and over again and agian either, you get better by playing many different people who all have power.

if you want the community  to get better, if you want vintage to grow and expand, if you want more deck experimentation and variety, you want more people to have access to power.

so in conclusions, reprints would rapidly expand the growth, popularity, skill and intelligence of type one.

and as dr. sylvan put it: While I certainly see your point, Jacob, and there's no disputing that WotC makes less off Type 1 players, I think that we're important enough that reprints are a valid request, once the economics are demonstrated to neither harm Wizards' business nor egregiously reduce the value of players' collections.

Type 1 players' dedication can and does bring in new customers. It's rare to meet even an unPowered Vintage player who doesn't have years of play behind them, and frequently over the course of those years they teach new people to play (I'm personally responsible for bringing in a few myself, and causing people to continue playing when they otherwise would've quit).

If the reprints were as available as more modern cards, then there would be an increase in the people who play multiple formats; even now, people 'dabble' either into Type 1 or out of it into other formats (witness CrazyCarl's States participation; this is not uncommon--I even *gasp* draft about twice a month). With a more reasonable cost, there would be more mixing. And since when has having more accessible ways to enjoy the game caused someone to quit? Indeed, having players involved in a diversity of formats provides a safety net against one format's degeneracy--players still have somewhere to go even if something goes wrong and makes Type 2 boring for a season, or 1.X, or whatever else. (Obviously Urza block is not a supporting example here, but Psychatog surely is for its temporary ruination of Standard, and Tinker now in Extended.)

No matter what, Type 1 is a phenomenon of increased longevity among WotC's customers--people who get addicted to it tend to stay around longer than others. Even if they don't play other formats as much as the devotees of the cash cows, they're still supporting their local stores and proliferating Magic in general. I don't think that by making the cards for our format more generally available that there would be any negative effect on the number of players in the supported PT- and Worlds-level formats. These are not only the formats with the most prizes, but they would still be considerably more accessible. I don't think Type 1 could ever threaten the broad appeal of smaller-card-pool formats.

Type 1's endurance is a sign of the game's endurance, and its recent ascending popularity shows that many players are reaching a stage where they want to explore Constructed Magic in the broadest terms, with the oldest cards. A maturing player base is to be expected in a game as it gets older, and catering to this evolving demographic would be a sage business move.

I would argue that reprints will (1) In the long term, and possibly the short term, cause minimal damage to the elderly cards' value. (2) Cause more players to continue their interest in Magic for a longer period of time, causing them to continue spending and recruiting new players. (3) Not affect the continued prosperity of heavily-supported formats. (4) Make Type 1 less economics-dependant and more widely played.

As a matter of fact, I can't see anyone who loses on this. Reprints just make sense for the health of the game

most players quit after two years, except for vintage players who have been playing for many years and will continue to do so and recruiting more people in the process if wizards doesn't allow vintage to stagnate or spread itself out too thin by the lack of power cards.

surely they realize how many more casual vintage players on the verge of quitting because they can't compete with the ultrafast decks that take control of the game turn 2 thanks to the power cards would come back and actually get a lot more involved in the game. not to mention all the profit wizards and it's dealers would generate from the sale of these reprints.

and honestly, i really doubt that list is legally binding and even if it is, i think it only forbids reprinting the card there is. reprinting it with completely new art and flavor should be just fine.

they could use the new 8th edition art as a way of suckering people to accept the new design cards and start playing with them in their decks as well.


Quotes:

I seems like most people who play T1 have been in it for a long time. (9 years here)

I still stand by my limited tin idea. so 2000 sets was low. make it 10,000. Put only the power 9 in them. Put them on the new gross card face. and see mana drain prices got over 100$

As for the Reserved list, yeah there could be a lawsuit, but i'm guessing Wizards hold the riight to change the list at any time with out notices.

And the fact that proxie tournments are very popular, makes one think that more people want to get into type 1. Its kind of like the old school pro tour. I takes a different person to walk in and try to play hard core type 1.  
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Elyas Machera
Member



Group: TMD User
Posts: 19
Joined: July 2003  Posted: Nov. 19 2003,11:14  

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People need to stop saying that reprints would hugely devalue the value of power cards.  If a reprint happened wizards would be running a huge campaign to promote it.  Also, type 1 is notorious for being over priced to get into, but a cheap form of power would change that stereotype.  Lastly, since proxy tournaments have started, attendance has shot up.  With these ideas in mind, it seems that the reprinting of power would cause a great number of new players to come to the format.

Finally, if there is going to be a constantly growing community, cards must be made available.  As more players enter, cards are being taken up by collectors, players and washing machines.  Prices are all ready out of control and bring in new people will just bring in more collectors who what the good stuff.  Since proxy tournaments started, power has shot up in value.  Why would people buy power if they could just proxy it?  For the same reasons they will when there are bad versions available.  

Oh ya, and:

Don't worry, the ten year old you’re playing against will still crap their pants where you go Beta Tundra, Beta Lotus, Beta Ancestral.  The difference is they will go land, budget lotus, budget mox, welder, smokestack, instead of land, jackal pup and that ten year old will kick your ass.

Smmenen wrote:
Quote  
I think there is another solution.  Force the DCI to allow proxies of certain cards - the DCI can facilitate this by printing proxies for power cards - perhaps gold bordered like they do for the Championship decks.


Jacob Orlove wrote:
Quote  
Power Nine would make awesome judge's compensation foils. That might not have a huge impact on the scarcity, though.
 


I think both of these are excellent options.  

The foils would be worth a small fortune, and would be awesome for players IF the players actually got to keep them.  I get the feeling that the STORES would end up with these, and we would see them on eBay for $2,000 each.  Stores will offer the card winner a few hundred bucks cash on-the-spot, and the cards will never make it into circulation.

It's a great idea, but difficult to regulate.

The WoTC/DCI printed proxies are also a terrific idea, and would be easier to regulate.  I think the only drawback here comes down to PROFIT.  

WoTC would not make significant money on these, UNLESS they combined it with my idea of a "special pack" inside each and every Box of cards that come out in the "next release".  

So, it could be a "proxy pack" featuring the power-9. They could even print (in friendly gold letters) across the face of the card "Proxy: only valid in Vintage Tournament Play".

David Hernandez

An online announcement stating that Wizards won't reprint the Power 9 is not an implied legal contract with Magic players and collectors. The notion is absurd. Any class action suit attempted against WotC on these grounds would be decisively crushed in a court of law.

I think that there are two points here.  Vintage as a game of Magic would be greatly enhanced by easy access to power.  It would put people on equal footing.  Equal footing, low threshold of entry, and skill based games are good for Magic and for the format.

There is, however, something to be said for the fun and joy of getting Power.  I acquired my first piece of power recently, a Beta Ancestral (a tear wells up in my eye each time I think about it) and I appreciate it that much more, knowing that I have scraped and planned to get it.  That said, it is the process, the hunt that is what I enjoy so even after getting all of the P9 through this laborious process I would STILL be in favor of reprints.  They represent too much good for the format.  And remember: Having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting.  This is SO true when it comes to Power.

Quote  
Ric Flair

well one point worth mentioning. there is a big difference in the feeling you get from having a beta ancestral recall,  something you worked so hard to get to the feeling that you get from having a flashy proxy ancestral that has "Proxy legal in vintage play only" written across it's art in big bold letters.

Reprints won't take away the joy you get from having or getting authentic power cards. all it'll do is put everyone on equal footing and make vintage play more accesible, open and fun.  and no matter how nice it might feel to get authentic power cards, there are only so few of them to go around that only less than 1% of the vintage community will ever be able to get them. that fact alone justifies reprints.

[centroles]

ineffiable brings up another good point. a collector's edition of sorts...

"I would not mind them making another collectors edition however. I mean it is very difficult to find the older cards inexpensively (I am not one who should talk as I do get some of the older cards) but it would be cool to be able to have some of the older variations (as a collector I mean)

I also collect baseball cards and have been doing so for nearly 22 years and the variations of older cards is what keeps me collecting (reprints and such) so I think a collectors edition for Magic would be cool. They did it once why not again... "

[Diddler]

So, from what I can gather from this thread is the following.  We want reprints that:

1. Don't devalue the Alpha/Beta/Unlimited versions.  This can be achieved by the cards being slightly uglier (in some way) than the originals.

2. Are tournament legal.  Collector's Edition isn't good enough.  The art is the same and look real nice, but they're not tournament legal.

3. Are inexpensive (and plentiful) so that everyone can have a copy of the P9.  This won't violate statement #1 since they're ugly.

Well, this seems completely reasonable to me...  If you didn't detect my sarcasm, there is no way that this can be done and have more than half of the Magic community happy.

[TimeBeing]

So what about an Realitively expensive Type 1 tin. Kind of like a new Collectors set.

Say the power 9 with a different backs, and gold border face (looks fine in a sleeve) maybe even foiled, In a nice collectors tin for 100$.
Or make them Type 1 legal, with alt art or something. (or worse the new card face.)

Limited to 2,000 sets or so.

You would have the ultimate proxies, they would cost a lot but not too much (about the price of a box and 1/2 and almost the cost of CE versions of the cards)  and there would just be enough for the people who want to get into T1.
Yes it might make our power lose some value, BUT think of what Mana drains, and Bizzars, LoAs and Masks, prices will do when 2,000 more people are looking for them.

just another idea.

[centroles]

the cards won't lose value not because the new cards are ugly but because the reprints would cause growth in type 1 and type 1 collectors, and increased interest in the power cards would cause more people to seek out the originals.

if you don't believe this, here's my previous post...

"And the fact is, not only would wizards make a ton of money say including a set of power only vintage legal cards with every box or so but the increased interest in type one would  undoubtedly lead to an increase in the number of collectors which may actually increase the value of the originals.

I honestly don't think the originals would take a significant drop in price, Dr. Sylvan said it better than me:

"This is one case where an increased supply can cause even more demand in the future for the originals. Threads about the pimpness of decks abound, and the rarer versions will always be worth more. Even for Type 2 chase rares that will be worth little inside of a year or two, people will pay between two and three times more for a foil. BB Balance is still a dozen times as expensive on StarCity as a 4th Edition Balance. The reprints themselves would be in the $20+ range as singles unless they printed a ridiculous amount of them, and I don't think an UNL piece of Power would ever fall below $100 again. Like I said, I would predict the originals' prices rebounding as more people enter Type 1 and want to pimpify their collections.

Let's not forget that many of the people who own Power are dealers, and that reprints which would circulate through the secondary market at high value for eternity would be immensely profitable.

Also, it's become totally clear to everyone these past few months that budget strategies, while they can get lucky, are fundamentally dead. Fish is the best, and there are others that make it perhaps as high as tier two, but they're no longer major contenders. The fact that economic status has such an incredible and systematic influence on success in this format besmirches all our claims to be intellectual and skill-testing. "

It's probably a mistake asking this question here as I would say a large number of the people here probably do have power and wouldn't want to risk these cards falling in values eventhough there is very little reason to believe they would. I think there is a very good chance that the value won't drop significantly and the growth in vintage would actually lead to increase in the collectibility of these cards and increase their value. "

[Eddie]

I think 2000 sets if far to few. If you are doing a print, at least do it right so that we don't have the same problem 1 year from now. We have about 30000 if each P9 now if i'm not mistaken (2500 A + 3500 B + 20000 U?).

But I don't like the idea of reprinting. I only have 4/9, but the search for power is something special. And I do fear the netdecking when new players enter vintage. Don't get me wrong, new players are more than welcome. Number of tournaments would go up, but what about the overall quality? I just loathe the idea of Timmy packing P9 in his "super crushing beast deck".

[Goblin Headbanger]

I see quite a few people saying that high card prices will hurt Type I.  I don't see the logic.  If prices are skyrocketing, isn't it because people are willing to pay much more for the cards?  Doesn't that imply that Type I is pretty healthy?  Yes, collectors drive up the prices.  It's a "collectable" card game, afterall.  Prices will fall when they get higher than people are willing to pay.  It might be unfair, but that's how it goes.  I hate to sound cold, but little Johnny or Janey who wants a Mox Emerald for that elf deck probably has a dad who wants a Ferrari that he can't afford either.

Making power cards completely available to everyone who wants them for a low, low price will hurt Type I rather than help it.  Facing the current flavor-of-the-month, killer combo deck four out of six rounds is bad enough when it's piloted by a competent player who at least knows the rules and how the deck works.  Do we really want it in the hands of people who just started playing yesterday and found the necessary cards in their cereal box?  I kind of like the learning curve right where it is.  You need to have some passion for the game and acquire some skill before you decide it's worth it to shell out the money for power.  Why do so many people seem to want to make Type I just a deeper shade of Type II?

[centroles]

in contrary, i think this would boost deck development.

a lot more people have access to power. sure at first a lot more people will play welder mud, long etc. then they realize everyone else is playing it too and the coolness factors wears out fast. it feels no cooler than playing sligh. so finally people are forced to come up with new decks, new tech etc. Only this time, the new tech actually has a shot at doing well since it has power to back it up. the skilled players wiht the best understanding of the metagame will come out on top.

currently, people cant try new tech because without power, it's almost impossible to have new tech be competitive. and those that do have power choose to play with the already proven tier one decks like long, welder mud, keeper etc since those decks are just cool since very few people can actually build them. it's not a game of skill anymore it's a game of who's willing to spend more on a card game.

prices are skyrocketing because there are so few cards to go around. and anyone without power can only play fish and black (and they might pull it off if workshop isn't a part of their meta), once they get sick of playing the same two decks over again, they're forced to accept that they can never play competitively and actually enjoy themselves and many leave vintage. meanwhile eveyrone with power usually just net decks maybe with a few modifications but few try to come up wiht new tech as the current tech is so rare and thus cool anyways. how the hell is that a good thing.

[xrizzo]

I would be completely welcoming of a print which could be purchased in a tin or other manner.  It would be great for new and old players.

The cards MUST be playable with A/B/U ones, otherwise they will be outcast like CE cards are...

If T1 is to survive (I am not sure that wotc really wants it to) then something must be done.  A few lucky speculators will be there to cash in on all the money to be made from a major change.

[Goblin Headbanger]

GAT ruled the world and distorted the format because its "power" card, Gush, was readily available to a large audience.  Man, there was a whole lot of innovation then, alright.  Hmmmm, then again maybe not.  Upon further review, I guess I have to reject the argument that reprinting power would stimulate deck-building.  I'll pass along to my wife, who just made top-four in a highly-powered environment this past Sunday playing Goblins, that her deck is dead, though.  She'll be crushed.