I was online one night, and it occured to me that I wante...

[outta_names]

I was online one night, and it occured to me that I wanted to play a Keeper deck.
It also occured to me that Stifle is currantly an amazing card, vs Dragon, PDeed, WMud, and Fetchlands.
I put together a decklist on Apprentice, and it looks pretty solid. So, without further ado, I present Shadow Keeper.

//Counters
4x FoW
4x Mana Drain
3x Stifle

//Draw
4x AK
3x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Future Sight (First this was Mystical, then it was FoF, now its this. I think I've made the right choice).

//Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Cunning Wish

//Win the Game
1x Decree of Justice

//Utility
4x Isochron Scepter
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will

//Kill Stuff
2x StP
3x Fire/Ice
2x Gorilla Shaman

//Mana
5x Strip
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
1x Tolarian Academy

//Sideboard
4x REB
3x Rack and Ruin
1x Misdirection
1x Stifle
1x Fire/Ice
1x StP
1x Skelatel Scrying
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Disenchant
1x Abeyance

Essentially, I'm looking to build this for an online metagame, which includes everything from top-tier Dragon, WMud, and even Storm combo to jank like powered aggro-control with Deeds, Exalteds, and Spiritmongers (that game took FOREVER...I had a StP on a stick, but he had so much life that I wanted to cry).

Some words in the way of an explanation.
AK is nice.
No, really, it is. It's solid card draw and it'll refill my hand...eventually. It's just that I can't get over the sinking feeling that there's something else out there more appropriatly suited for Keeper.

Fire/Ice + Isochron Scepter = something that vaugly resembles a draw engine.
Depending on your situation, and your matchup, either you want to be dealing damage, or you want to be drawing cards. However, with this, you can do either. However, I find Fire to be quite slow, which brings us to our next point...

I want another win condition.
In fact, I'm considering cutting a Scepter for ole' Blue Eyes, Morphling.  I find myself wishing I could end the game faster, if not so my opponent doesn't recover, than to merely speed things up. It may be that I'm an impatient dick, but prior to this, I played alot of WelderMUD, and I found it more involving than simple Draw-Go.
Elaborating on that point, this is Keeper is less proactive than it is a 4-color Draw-Go deck.

My final comment about this list is that it has a very very high mana-denial component. Stifles = LD. There are 5 Strips. Shamans eat artifacts. The virtual card advantage and temp gained from this mana denial, combined with the very real card advantage of the AKs gives you the heart of this deck. It's also the reason I get away with running only 24 mana sources.

About the board:
REB is nice. Leave it be.

Rack and Ruin is also nice. Remember, digital Workshops are cheap, and Juggernauts are plentiful.

MisD is the COOLEST THING EVAR. Nobody ever sees it coming. I'm abusing this fact. Sinkhole, Hymn, Ancestral, even Vindicate have all fallent victim to this killer card. It's a nice FoW in a clutch, too. Try it, you'll like it.

Stifle in the board is to make it slightly more available when I want it vs MUD, and to bring in vs Dragon and stuff.

Fire/Ice is the same thing, but I search for it more often cause I want it on a stick.

StP: See Fire, remove some passion.

Vampiric Tutor: It helps, sometimes.

Abeyance: This could be replaced, but it just SEEMS so good.

Skeletal Scrying: draw some cards in a hurry

Disenchant: Wish -> Scepter vs Artifacts isn't pretty.

Well, those are the cards.
I know you're all gonna say something.  

peace,
-outta

[Moxlotus]

In your build is it really even worth it to keep black in the deck? You only have Yawgmoth's Will and DT maindeck and a Skeletal in the Board. Now I know those are excellent cards, but would it be better to cut those so the mana base is more stable. You could add the 4th brainstorm and FOF.

[BrokenDeck]

Add vampiric tutor, so you can put it on a stick.  Imagine getting to rig your next five drawsl, that would be so cool.  As long as your opponent doesn't deal you any damage, you're hooked up.  

Edit: Didn't notice vampiric tutor in the sideboard until I posted... oops.  

[Comrade Seraph]

Vampiric tutor is awful on a stick. It isn't card advantage, which is crap in the control mirror. It *is* massive life loss, which is crap in the aggro matchup. And generally speaking, anything worth fetching should sufficiently change the game state in your favour by itself, without multiple fetches.

Not to mention... what would you fetch multiple times? After ancestral and situationally, balance?

[outta_names]

Quote In your build is it really even worth it to keep black in the deck? You only have Yawgmoth's Will and DT maindeck and a Skeletal in the Board. Now I know those are excellent cards, but would it be better to cut those so the mana base is more stable. You could add the 4th brainstorm and FOF.

This is a decent point, however, the thing is that Yawgmoth's Will is just SO GOOD that I can't bear to cut it. DT is a card that I'm always happy to draw, and Scrying comes along for the ride. In all seriousness, YawgWill is really just too good to cut. However, I may drop a Sea and add a Volcanic Island, since I always seem to want Red early, and there's a high chance of my duals getting Waste'd.

Quote Add vampiric tutor, so you can put it on a stick.  Imagine getting to rig your next five drawsl, that would be so cool.

Quote It isn't card advantage, which is crap in the control mirror. It *is* massive life loss, which is crap in the aggro matchup.

Yeah, those two cancel each other out.
It is worthwhile noting that with all the draw this deck has, there's really very little need for real tutoring capabilities. Not to mention this deck is incredibly redundant.

Quote Not to mention... what would you fetch multiple times? After ancestral and situationally, balance?

Interestingly enough, I don't have Balance in the deck. Should I? Is it worth removing a StP for it? Should I put it in the board (probably over Vampiric or Abeyance)?

Lastly, I'd like to restate my initial questions:
1) Is there anything better than the AK drawing engine?
2) What can I do about a second win condition (that isn't Fire)? Does Morphling belong in this build? Is dropping a Scepter a good idea?
3)Vampiric Tutor and Abeyance simply aren't being used much. In Vamp's case, there just aren't many bombs to search for. In Abeyance's case, I just never seem to need it. Orim's Chant will help vs Aggro (it can be Kicked). Is this a reasonable switch?

peace,
-outta

[Loci]

I will have a go at this:

1) I don't think so, but this isn't my field of expertise since I didn't even have a chance to test it yet.
2) I have dropped two scepters because I really wanted Chalice of the Void. Then I came to my senses and dropped the Chalices. I had the same feeling as you did and put in Morphling again.
My belief is that 2 scepters is best, but 3 might work for you just as good. 4 is just plain bad imho. It will just shows up too often.
3) Hmmm. This one is more difficult. I have Orim's Chant in the SB and carry a maindeck Abeyance (Yes really).

Why? Because:
1) I carry two scepters and still four Wishes. Since it is a cantrip it is easier to let go then something like Fire/Ice that you really want to use when you need it, not when it is stuck in your hand.
2) Has its use on a stick and is a cantrip
3) It helps out as a bait for counters. Tapping the scepter with abeyance (or just casting it on tis own) is like signaling: 'I am going to do something bad to you and I do not like to be interfered.' That in general does it. If it doesn't you will have breathing room and a card.

I really like Abeyance more then Orim's Chant but against aggro Orim's Chant is obviously better. Still I believe Orim's Chant is just not going to help much there anyway. Better have something like Fire/Ice. Perhaps even something less divers but with more of bang: A Lightning Bolt. (Though I will doubt this is tech either.  )

[Tripps]

Have you tested Impulse over AK? It will dig pretty deep, works well with Future Sight if drawn in the late game, and allows you to almost "stack your deck" late game if it is on a stick. It also nets you a card in hand, so it is a cheap, mini tutor, cantrip.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Without Intuition, AK doesn't fit many places beside GAT. Impulse will help you a lot, imo.

Balance is good, but with so much Scepter-ness, you may not need it for creature removal except against random aggro.

Tolarian Academy < Island when you play just three permanent 0-cc artifacts.

I would cut Scepter #4 for Wish #3. It's a more balanced quantity, and makes the "dead Scepter" problem much less important.

I prefer Chant to Abeyance, but if you find the Scepters routinely act like Jayemdae Tome for you, that's your call.

[Toad]

With Null Rod, Stifle, Gorilla Shaman, Disenchant, Rack and Ruin and Goblin Welders being everywhere, is Isochron Scepter a real good call in Keeper ? I tested a Keeper build with some Scepters, and It horribly died to Suicide, Fish, Landstill or even Stompy, because It was too much reliant on imprinting something cool on the Scepter, and Artifact hate was wrecking me.

[Shock Wave]

I'm all for old-school Keeper draw engines. I really believe that Isochron Scepter is downright awful in Keeper.

[Crater Hellion]

Isochron scepter really is awful in Keeper per se- but that suggests that someone took a keeper list and threw in scepters. The deck needs to be focused around scepter and really shouldn't be called keeper for any reason. A good control deck right now should use Scepters and AK's, and should not be called keeper.

[Razvan]

Isochron Scepter, I think, is really good in Tog variants. I took Carl's build, and replaced the Deep Analysis with 2 Scepters, then managed to squeeze one more in. Also, you can probably remove the Pernicious Deeds in the sideboard if you have the Scepter in the deck, as Fire/Ice, or Diabolic Edict, or Naturalize on the Scepter is nifty.

I am not sure if Keeper even needs such situational cards though. It has a lot less instants than Tog, and generally, it makes far less use of Cunning Wish.

I think Crater Hellion is right. You need to base the deck around Scepter. Tog is already pretty set on that, with it's instant-ladden sideboard, and main-deck AK's.

[Shock Wave]

Quote The deck needs to be focused around scepter and really shouldn't be called keeper for any reason.

Granted, this isn't a standard Keeper list. However, the fundamentals of playing Keeper and a deck such as this are the same. The reason Scepter is awful in this sort of deck is because the draw engine is really poor.

- AK on a stick is ass
- AK without Intuition is a tough sell as well
- Brainstorm on a stick isn't anything to write home about either

The reasoning is that when you drop a Scepter and imprint something on it, you're already -2 cards. To achieve parity, you need to activate the Scepter twice. So let's see:

- 2 mana to cast Scepter = 1 turn (You'll probably have to wait until turn 2 to cast it half the time)
- 2 mana to draw a card = 1 turn
- 2 mana to draw a card = 1 turn

So basically, you need to wait 3 turns and expend 8 mana a lot of the time to get back to square one. This doesn't take into consideration the fact that artifact hate is prevalent in almost every competitive metagame right now. I like the idea of running Brainstorms and AKs, but IMO, you might as well just play TOG. My intention is not to bash the deck, which actually looks pretty cool, but rather to point out the weakness of Isochron Scepter as a draw engine in comparison to already established strategies.\n\n

[outta_names]

Whatever you'd like to call this deck is fine with me, however, I most definatly make good use of the Scepters. I *am* instant-laden, with 20 maindecked Scepter targets, and 9 more in the board.

Toad brings up an interesting point, and although I will admit that I haven't encountered that much artifact hate, there's alot of it going around right now, and it's foolish to walk into another deck's hate. Yet, at the same time, I can't help but feel that I'm prepared for all of the hate cards you mentioned.
Null Rod is easily dealt with via Cunning Wish -> Disenchant/Rack and Ruin.
Welder and Shaman are creatures (1-toughness creatures at that), and are easily taken out via Fire/Ice or StP, which, incidentally, are often imprinted on the Scepter itself. Even Stifle can buy me time, and Stifle on a Stick buys me alot of time.
Rack and Ruin would probably be the toughest one to deal with, simply because of it's instant nature and only 8 counters in the deck.
However, this is where the 4th Scepter comes in. Often, I'll be able to replace the lost Scepter with a new one (though the card disadvantage hurts - R&R essentially goes 3-for-1).

On AK vs Impulse:
This deck is very redundant. I simply don't have the massive number of 1-ofs that traditional Keeper has. As a result, I'm not looking for as much "dig" as I am looking for pure card advantage. While Impulse on a Stick is a fair draw engine, AK is a fair draw engine without being on a stick. AK imprinted is a GOOD draw engine.
That said, I'm going to try it.

Academy vs Island is a thought, though with all the Scepters in the deck, Acadamy usually taps for 2 or 3 U by the time I get it. However, the Cunning Wish -> BEB plan may need to be in this deck vs Blood Moon, and this may be how I implement it.

Finally, although I really don't think there's a need to maindeck either Chant or Abeyance, I think Chant is what I'm going to go with. I have less of a need to deny spells, since when playing combo, Dragon can go off on my turn via Necromancy, and I probably won't be able to Wish early enough vs TPS for it to matter. Besides, I have other tools for both those decks (Stifle for both, and StP for dragon, not to mention 8 counters). Chant is essentialy the end of the game for most things creature.

So, in conclusion, this is what I'll be testing, and the conclusions I'm looking to draw:
1 Volcanic Island replaces 1 Underground Sea (Will I get color screwed without a 3rd black source? Are my Volcanics getting Wasted enough to warrent this concern?)
4 Impulse replaces 4 AK (Does Impulse do a better job than AK at getting me the cards I need? Will I miss the real card advantage over the improved card quality?)
1 Morphling replaces 1 Iso Scepter (Does Morphling pull his weight in a modern metagame? Are my Scepters coming under severe artifact hate?)
1 Orim's Chant replaces 1 Abeyance (SB) (Does this change anything?)

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Keep it coming.
peace,
-outta

[Falc]

If you want to add another win condition, I'd go with a second Decree of Justice over Morphling.  With a second Decree, you can afford to cycle one "early" for two or three soldiers and put on some steady pressure.  You also wouldn't have to worry as much about it getting Duressed or Stifled.  With Morphling, you also have to worry about it getting Mana Drained.

I would definitely go with Impulse over AK.  Without Intuition, AK is really a crap shoot.  You might draw three, you might not.  By themselves, they're mediocre at best.  Impulse on a stick will give you both card advantage and card selection - two things that a pure control deck loves.

Also, I would stick with Abeyance over Chant.  Neither spell will stop your opponent from playing instants (during their upkeep or in response to activation), so the only advantage for Chant is in Enchantments and Creatures.  Abeyance on the other hand, is a cantrip.  Abeyance on a stick is both a soft lock and a draw engine.  If your metagame is heavy aggro, you could justify Chant.  If it's mostly control though, you gotta go with Abeyance.

- Falc

[SMR0079]

First off, good thread.

@outta-names
I have played Keeper for a while now and its status is reflective of the a metagame in flux.  Building variations of Keeper is a good thing.

A few comments on your deck:

Stiffle - I always wanted to run more of these, now the current meta demands at least 2-3.  

My biggest criticsm is your manabase.  In the past anything below 26 sources for Keeper was to risky in my experience, do the math with your blue sources.

Do prepare for bloodmoon.

The Scepters are a bit shakey for the reasons Toad and others have stated but if you must run them 2-3 seems right, as your comments indicate 4 clogs your hand to much.

I like that your fitting in future sight but this and Morphling is to heavy, Superman has retired to the wheelchair.  I emphasize with your need for more win conditions but doubling up on Decree or even Trenches if you see a alot of wMud is smarter.

Impulse is the better choice over AK but 4 is to many.  Try 2 or 3.

You have chosen to drop many of the classic "bombs" such as Mindtwist and Balance and for the most part I concur.  However, you need a maindeck Skelatal Scrying it is real card advantage, something Ak doesn't really give you until the third one. I'm still running Fact or Fiction, maybe you can give me your reasoning for abandining it.

 The cards that I have been agonozing over of late are:
Mystical tutor
Mindtwist (this is hard to let go)
Vampiric Tutor (good if you run Future Sight, otherwise?)
Balance (good in the real life meta, but maybe not online or in the NE)

I hope this is helpfull.

Sean

[PhOeNiX]

Quote (Toad @ Dec. 16 2003,08:47)With Null Rod, Stifle, Gorilla Shaman, Disenchant, Rack and Ruin and Goblin Welders being everywhere, is Isochron Scepter a real good call in Keeper ? I tested a Keeper build with some Scepters, and It horribly died to Suicide, Fish, Landstill or even Stompy, because It was too much reliant on imprinting something cool on the Scepter, and Artifact hate was wrecking me.

I agree.

I have also tested Isochron Scepter and didn't really like it. With so much artifact hate going around I found it difficult sometimes to make up card parity. I've had Chalice Black players drop down an early Chalice for two on me, Suicide Black forcing through a Null Rod after a Duress, and Fish Stifling my Imprint or dropping Null Rod themselves. I would just cringe.

Of course the card can just win you games. I also had many experiences where the Scepter just dominated the game. However, I don't find the card worth the risk, especially at the cost of -2 cards. That's just my experience.