Phantom Tape Wurm:Quote Type 1 should be combo, and combo...

[centroles]

Phantom Tape Wurm:

Quote Type 1 should be combo, and combo hate, period.  And if you take a close look at the current decks to beat, I think you'll find that is exactly the case.  If you want a breakdown of the metagame ala the old "rock, paper, scissors" you first have to start by classifiying each deck by whether they are themselves combo, or combo hate.

Fish: combo hate
chalice keeper: combo hate
Long.dec: combo
dragon: combo
workshop: combo + combo hate

Basically, every deck that is neither combo, nor combo hate, has become unviable and has dropped off the metagame and cannot seriously be considered to be a deck to beat.

Do you agree that that's all the format is now, combo and anticombo?

At first I was inclined to say no but the more I think about it, the more correct the statement seems. Every deck I can think of that's even remotely viable is either combo or anticombo. To a greater degree than during the infamous combo winter of Urza's Block.

as Bastian stated:

Quote Magic is a game that's meant to be played between human players, therefore it requires interaction. When that interaction is reduced as much as possible, then what's this? A solitaire card game?

Prison and combo are decks that hardly estimulate player interaction. It turns games into one-player games. It really doesn't make sense, and it makes even less sense that there's actually people that don't matter this happening.

Sure that not all metagames allow for fully powered decks to exist. Not everyone can build a fully powered prison deck, or Long, etc... but there are environments where this is possible, and most players who dedicate themselves to type 1 have always a fully powered environment in mind.

Type 1 is on the verge of becoming degenerate. It that hasn't already happened... Let me repeat: degenerate. This isn't a compliment. It means the state of the format became unplayable, and too stupid to be good. The only thing that type 1 is currently achieving is the point of no player interaction.

Furthermore... I wouldn't mind playing t1.5 if I didn't like type 1 better. Why? Because it gives access to cards that I may have or want to use, and the same applies to other players who might have full sets of power, who want to play with them and dislike the state of the format. Are you going to suggest that them too should bow down to a game that doesn't stimulate player interaction and longer games?

Where's the fun of ending a game in a couple of turns..? It's like... "duh"!!  

I believe this is indeed the case and is a problem; one that can easily be fixed...

I blame this on three massive tempo breakers: Lion's Eye Diamond, Mishra's Workshop, and Worldgorger Dragon. The first two cards are tempo breakers in the sense that they are better mana accelerators than the greatest tempo breaker of all: black lotus, in their respective decks. Dragon is a tempo breaker in that it allows for the very first deck in the history of magic that only needs to actually hardcast one card (animate dead and it's many variants) in order to draw or win the game. This is worsened by the fact that the one card that needs to be cast often only costs two mana and that the combo itself is extremely resilient and difficult to disrupt. All three cards contribute to having your initial draw step being the fundamental determinant of whether or not the deck will win, or take control of the board on the first turn or at the very latest turn two.

Workshop, Long and Dragon decks unlike other combo decks, are very resilient and difficult to hate out. In addition they won't die or disappear even if the key cards/tempo breakers (Mishra's Workshop, Worldgorger Dragon and Lion's Eye Diamond) are restricted. Budget versions of both Workshop and Long that don't run ANY power or Workshops have proven themselves viable even in powered metagames. This only serves to prove just how resilient these decks are any why slowing them down a tad certainly won't kill them. Clickhere for examples.

Dragon decks only need one copy of Dragon in the graveyard to combo out. Thus restricting Dragon certainly won't kill the archeatype. What it'll do however is slow the deck down forcing players to not abuse bazaar as much and have to buried alive dragon into the graveyard as drawing into it will be rare. This will make turn two kills more difficult and turn three kills the norm. This is perfect for vintage. And it will kill it in type 1.5 (since this is the only deck that really breaks spoils of the vault in 1.5 and the one and only reason creative nonabusive cards like chrome mox and spoils of the vault may need to get restricted).

The format isn't quite Workshop or anti-Workshop. It is however, Workshop based Combo vs. Combo vs. Workshop and Combo Hate. Hating out two very resilient diverse archeatypes with many variations all of which take control of the board or win by turn one or two relatively consistently is a real pain. Hence why few other decks can squeeze in enough hate to find a spot in the current combo/workshop based combo metagame.

Even if workshop gets the restriction, the archetype won't go away. And long decks will simply evolve into rectal based ones. The format will be slowed down. But these two decks will still be leading the pack. I have personally witnessed versions of welder mud and/or long win relatively competitive tournaments without playing a single copy of mishra's workshop or any of the moxen or black lotus. they're slightly slower but the raw power of the decks other cards still pulls through to take control or win the game on turn two or a relatively consistent basis. there are plenty of lands like ancient tomb, city of traitors and plenty of sources of mana like the moxen, lotus petal, sol ring, mana vault, mana crypt and tolarian academy to pick up the slack for the three missing workshops.

All of the decks I can think of that are even playable in vintage are either forced to be able to combo out on turn one or turn two or have to rely on dedicating atleast 11-12 maindeck slots (Chalice, Null Rod, Sphere, Wasteland, Stripmine) and often more, solely for the purpose of hating out combo. And even then, they often still need to dedicate most of their sideboards to combo hate cards too and play numerous cards that primarily serve to stop combo (Duress, Force of Will etc. etc.) and still have a hard time beating combo decks on a realtively consistent basis. Frankly, I hate this trend.

Many of you clearly misunderstand why i'm advocating what i am, so i'm quoting my reasons for this post on page three here as well.

Quote i want a format that's as open and diverse as possible. i dislike how many decks and archetypes are shut out by the blazing fast combo and combo hate decks as possible. thus what i'm advocating is that we slow down the culprits decks just a tad so that the environment can support more decks and more archetypes.

what this means is that all of a sudden, a great deal more decks become viable, many more archetypes become playable and the format more enjoyable for more people. in addition, in a slightly slower format, the importance of power cards wouldn't be as great and as a result, more players without power would be able to compete as well.

i'm perfectly aware of the fact that this is only a temporary solution. that eventually as more cards get printed, the format will speed up once again and will need more restrictions. i accept that as a natural pattern of vintage, it gets faster and faster until the dci is forced to slow it down a tad.

remember when academy completely dominated the format? vintage lost a great many players as they got sick of having so many of their favorite archetypes shut out. then the dci stepped in, restricted a few key cards and slowed down the deck. the deck was still around but it wasn't nearly as broken. people came back into the format. this is what happened when people were free to play 4 copies of black lotus, 4 of each of the moxen etc as well. and this is what is happened now as people are free to abuse 4 copies of such broken tempo breakers as mishra's workshop (effectively a permenent black lotus), and lion's eye diamond (just as blantant a tempo breaker as well), dragon is a tempo breaker in that it only needs one card (and a two casting cost card at that) to be played to draw or win the game at that.

now, i just want the dci to do what they're hired to do, what they have done so many times in the past. slow down the format and make it accesible to more deck types, people and archetypes.

i disagree with people like phantom tape wurm that just because this is an inevitable pattern, that we should just throw in the towel and let combo dominate type one, accept two turn wins or one turn wins as normal. because then, what happens when more cards get printed and hte format speeds up even more. are we to accept turn one wins as the norm. just accept that the game is decided by who ever does go first. because that is the point we will eventually reach if we just sit around and refuse to restrict blatant tempo breakers.

as this happens, more and more will leave type 1 and format itself will die. despite the fact that i hate playing in this combocentric meta, I don't want vintage to ever die. as i certainly don't think it's going to be replaced with 1.5.

I don't want vintage to become steadily more and more degenerate and watch as the format i used to love becomes nothing more than a coin flip. i'm not saying that this has already happened. but i am saying that we're at the point where people will start leaving the format and possibly magic altogether if something isn't done. and within a year, i do see long, dragon, and workshop decks becoming even more efficent and being able to obtain turn one kills consistently. no one stands to benefit from the degeneration of the format, the decline in the players. seeing how prosperous, diverse and popular type 1 is now, i don't want that to go away.

i would say that an year ago was the golden age of vintage. after a host of restrictions effectively slowed down all the broken combos that emerged from urza's block but before tnt emerged on the scene and shut out a bunch of aggro decks. an year ago, so many different diverse decks and archetypes both powered and budget, combos, aggro, control, were all viable. and this why despite losing so many people to urza's block and combo winter, despite all the bad rep that type 1 had by then about how it was all about broken combos and turn one wins, vintage started to pick up steam again and lose these sterotypes. a whole new breed of vintage players joined up. thanks to starcitygames, manadrain etc, new tech was daily being tested and refined. vintage was prospering. i would bet that many of the people on this site right now joined up right around this period.

but now we're facing losing all this progress. if degenerate tempo breakers and fast combo isn't slowed down, to constantly be refined and expanded with newer cards to the point where turn one wins become common place (it's already not too difficult for long decks to combo out or workshop variants to effectively lock out the opponent turn one), then people will start quitting again. but if the dci acts quickly to neuter these broken tempo breakers. the archeatypes, dragon, long and workshop will be a turn slower. a bunch more decks will become viable again. and vintage will once again prosper.

on the same note...

i think errating the mox and lotus to be legendary is a very good idea. the cards will still be valued highly. the difference is that playing them can put you at a disadvantage too.

no one would want to play more than a couple of moxen per deck for fear of having useless cards sitting in thier hands. similarly, even those who opt to play moxen will not be able to play any of them 50% of the time against other players with mox.

as a result, the format would be slowed down a bit and thus would be able to accomidate a great deal more decks, strategies and archetypes. not playing with mox won't inherently be a disadvantage and thus less people would feel like they're getting the short end of the stick by not having access to moxen in a competitive environmetn. this will in turn make vintage overall more accesisible, open, diverse and resilient.

i'm not convinced this is needed quite yet. restricting workshop, lion's eye and dragon ought to be enough for now. but eventually combo will start to dominate again. and god forbid, one day we may reach the point where errating the black lotus, moxen to be legendary, where restricting dark ritual may be neccessary. i just hope it's a long ways off.

As Oscar Tan explained

Quote Mishra's Workshop is one of the strongest unrestricted tempo-breakers in the game because it doesn't even produce card disadvantage. It's literally like playing three land, and the only drawback is they produce colorless mana, but we've seen how relevant this is to decks that are practically all-artifact now. So, yes, for all practical purposes, it's a permanent Dark Ritual, and that's one of the best tempo-breakers in the game in its own right.

Simply, I don't want Magic collapsing under its own weight as a handful of cards set too high a set of benchmarks and crowd out broad swaths of the potential deck types through their sheer brokenness. If you see Jackal Pup considered too slow, for example, much as it was when Academy was unrestricted, then I think you have to rethink the format's foundations.

Beyond abstractions, you might say that Workshop hasn't elicited real complaints for so long because everyone thought the worst it could make were Juggernauts and Su-Chis. Now, though, we've long since realized that a first-turn Sphere of Resistance (from an opponent going first) makes even dedicated control players frown. There are a lot more disruptive artifacts where that came from, from Tangle Wire to Smokestack. Finally, while designers make artifacts at least as expensive as the most expensive comparable effect in any color, this is irrelevant when a Workshop shaves two mana off everything, and you end up with a sixth color that has a little of everything.

Simply, nothing is more boring than trying to amuse yourself by keeping track of who's lost more permanents to Smokestack, regardless of whether the field can deal with it or not. At least combo decks got it over with quickly, even if players let the fundamental turn drag out to brag a bit.

Unrestricted Workshop goes a long way to making these collections of soft locks possible, again, because the three-mana threats effectively cost one, and the four-mana threats cost two, and you can play them all Turn 1. It's not supposed to happen that consistently, and it even makes going first that much stronger.

Matthieu reminds us that "It sucks to play against X" is not a real argument, but what I'm saying is that maybe "It sucks to play against X's lock set up on Turn 1" should be.

Moreover, it's not as simple as saying that X can be hated out. Anything can be hated out, by attacking a permanent type, the mana base, a color, or something else. However, what happens if you have X, which is hated out through its mana base, Y which is hated out by attacking artifacts, and Z by attacking cards in the graveyard? You can only devote so many slots to hate, so if you can't hate everything, the weight of lucky matchups and scouting suddenly multiplies. And if you could hate everything out, then boredom suddenly multiplies.

The "Disenchant problem" ("Why Control Sucks") was a dilemma of "The Deck" years ago. As decks became faster and more focused, it could no longer afford to maindeck multiple Disenchants because they were dead weight too often, and a dead card in the opening hand is like a needless mulligan. That's why the "cycling" Dismantling Blow and later, Cunning Wish, was so good there. It's the same reason why players don't maindeck X-hate, Y-hate or Z-hate unless the metagame clearly demands it.

Simply put, would you want to successfully hate out X but get paired against Y, then get a surprise loss to the kid who borrowed someone's Stompy?

Moreover, hate, for me, is one of the extraneous elements of deck design. It's not really an integral element, and being able to dilute decks to hate other decks out has far less appeal for me than simply a broader metagame.

And all that said, it's not that easy to hate a Workshop deck out, given the speed it can bring out its overcosted disruption. Maindecking hate cards and trying to keep enough mana to Cunning Wish out Disenchant both have their own problems, and your hate can be hated out after you side, too. I remember, for example, Stax pulling out a surprise Divert at GenCon, right?

Finally, to address the specific Chalice of the Void point, yes, the way Mishra's Workshop muddles a deck's mana curve makes it very good under Chalice. Two other good bets post-Chalice are "The Deck" (diversified by its four colors) and Dragon (Bazaar of Baghdad is unaffected, and a single Chalice does not stop both Animate Dead and Necromancy). It's not Workshop against anti-Workshop, but again, X, Y and Z might not be enough to sustain everyone's interest, not in a format that's supposed to give you a broader personal choice in pet deck types.

Mishra's Workshop unduly shuts out a lot of strategies that just don't have the brokenness to race the locks, through no fault of their own. Simply, the idea that Jackal Pup is far, far too slow in this format just bothers me.

Remember Psychatog a few expansions back? We had Cunning Wish 'Tog, Burning Wish 'Tog, Wishless 'Tog, removal-heavy 'Tog, bad 'Tog, but it was all Psychatog. Similarly, we've seen Stacker 2, TnT, Stax, and Welder MUD, but underneath, we know it's all about Workshop's permanent tempo boost.

In other words, why bother to test anything else when you already know a Workshop-based strategy will do it better? This is what I meant when I said Workshop shuts out so many potential strategies.

[centroles]

the topic being discussed is whether or not vintage is now combo vs. combo hate.

answer yes or no. lets discuss which is true. primarily

you may also post if you think this a good thing etc. and if you think it's bad, post why it's bad and how it can be changed.

i have yet to see a single topic anywhere on this forum along the same lines. So I don't know how you can claim it's been discussed to death.

[Josti]

first of all:
@ centroles: Use the edit function dude. that make's it a bit more easyer to read. Edit = tech in this forum.

second:
PTW is kinda right. the only Anti-combo deck now running is suicide, and even that is going to change since black is using chalice and Rod even more.

Josti.

[Fastbond]

Vintage will always be combo + combo hate.  Cards like Chalice of the Void and Powder Keg are so flexible that they severly hurt aggro and combo in one swoop.  It's basically basic land versus non-basic land and artifact mana.  This has pretty much always been the case.  It's just a little faster now.

The problem is that Wizards prints too powerful of hosers against combo and mono-blue and not enough against other decks.  Take a look at the power level of carpet of flowers and blood moon and chalice of the void and take a look at the power level of compost and artifact mutation.  The power level of hosers against mono-black and artifact based decks are unbalancing.

This is why budget is unviable.  I could take any deck I want stick a few carpets and some xantid swarms and defense grids and stand a good chance against mono-blue.  I could take that same deck and add in a couple blood moons and chalices and steal some games against combo.  But my budget deck won't be fast enough against mono-black and prison and I don't have the hate cards to compete.

Combo has to be strong to deal with cards like Chalice.  Even if combo is weakened by restrictions and people start toning down anti-combo decks people are still going to play anti-combo cards because they're so powerful.  Anti-combo strategies were the best against keeper until the tnt-era.  So, basically keeper was just the combo deck back then.  Combo decks are basically any deck with dual lands and three or more moxen because that's the definition shaped by the hate cards.  So, unless decks are only one or two colors, the format will always be combo and anti-combo except for anamolies such as the tnt-era.

If wizards started to print better hate cards against decks like mono-black and prison there would be a wider variety of decks because you wouldn't have to play a deck that has to race them(ie. combo).

[centroles]

i agree with what he said. i stated that type 1 is now indeed combo vs. combo hate. i personally believe this is a very bad sign and am working on finding ways to fix this as I see the current environment as worse than the first combo winter.

i want your opinions on the topic though.

Fastbond, at first you suggest that keeper is a combo deck, and then claim that combo is played because other decks are too hard to beat!!

Neither of these statements make sense on any level. Combo is played because it's fast and powerful. Now it's faster and more powerful than ever before consistently being able to pull off turn one and turn two wins, or take control of the game by turn one or two. And it's super resilent and difficult to hate out to boot requiring many many cards maindeck and sideboard to even have a chance at slowing them down.

Wizards printing out hate cards against sui black isn't going to change this. No one's going to stop playing combo because sui black is harder to hate out. That makes no sense.

[Josti]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 29 2003,23:00)i agree with what he said. i stated that type 1 is now indeed combo vs. combo hate. i personally believe this is a very bad sign and am working on finding ways to fix this as I see the current environment as worse than the first combo winter.

The only people able to fix the format again is the DCI, and i hope they will with their next restriction/banning round December the 1st. You had better awaited this day before posting this. this treath can finally grow to be a "what should be restricted ?" treath.

[Smash]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 29 2003,13:51)the topic being discussed is whether or not vintage is now combo vs. combo hate.

answer yes or no. lets discuss which is true. primarily

you may also post if you think this a good thing etc. and if you think it's bad, post why it's bad and how it can be changed.

i have yet to see a single topic anywhere on this forum along the same lines. So I don't know how you can claim it's been discussed to death.

I was refering to whiney  ish restrict workshop argument.  Save that for another time.

The issue of combo vs anti-combo is a valid topic. That topic is interesting  Honestly, if you play competitive type 1 these days you have to be able to DEAL with combo. I don't think in most varied metagames, you need to play a deck that is totally designed to shut down combo... but you need to have some chance. So playing combo yourself, or the right form of control are the best meta choices.

I wouldn't really call gay fish an anti-combo deck. It has been around for quite a while, and it seemed more an anti-control deck (because historically aggro-control has done well against classic control). It just happens than null rod + counters + wastelands is a nice fit against the current round of combo decks.

Aggro is on a definite slump. They have COTV for 0 and a few other tools to try to adopt to the environment... but aggro is having a really hard time. Hopefully aggro can either be broken to excell in the current environment, or combo can be brought down a little bit. I really like having a little bit of aggro in an environment. It is okay not to have 80% aggro like t2, but no aggro being able to top 8 at a 20+ person tournament is a little bit excessive.

@Fastbond: What the ... are you talking about? Budget decks can't beat monoblack? Are you refering to mask or dragon? Budget decks have a chance vs either... from smother to crypt to stp to pulverize...

[Razvan]

The dominance of combo will always hold true it seems. In this environment, where the fastest deck is a turn 1 kill, that's the optimal way to play, I guess.

Either stuff gets restricted, or a new, faster combo deck will come out. That's the way it's gonna be.

Of course, there's always a minuscule chance a few good players build good enough control decks to change that... anyone?

[BreathWeapon]

I think T1's natural evolution is combo. How can such a thing be stopped as the card pool increases and the most degenerate cards ever made remain in the environment?
Answer? It can't.

This isn't a bad thing, it is simply the progression of time. The age of, "Jackal Pup go!" and "I play 5 Color Morphling control" are long dead. We have to live with that, and we have to move on.

I think people should have seen this coming the day Tog and Rector came into light. If anything, these two creatures were the "Mesiahs" of combo based Magic. Now, every deck will operate under a form of Combo or anti-Combo guise. Its a Brave New World.

[Josti]

Quote (Razvan @ Nov. 29 2003,23:07)Either stuff gets restricted, or a new, faster combo deck will come out. That's the way it's gonna be.

A faster deck. Like before the coin flip you win    

nah, it will all end up with the restrictions of some cards, or some erata's. the biggest problem of magic are the players who can use the disadvantage of a card as an advantage. that kind of players will alway's change the format to a combo winter unless the DCI make's a move. (like dragon  )

[thefram]

By calling this "combo winter 2" you are making a sweeping generalization which is not only false, but designed to get people to post in this thread.

Firstly, though in spirit i agree with PTW, he has somewhat simplified the issue. The game can in fact be boiled down to combo and combo hate, but the forms that combo and combo hate take are so variagated that his statement is also generalization and therefor not overly useful.

For instance, one could consider MUD, STAX, Fish, Sui, Stacker, Slax, Red Rock, Ur Phid/Scepter, and Keeper all to be combo hate decks. Yet these decks span many different archetypes and hybrids thereof. And that is not all the combo hate. One could concievable make a sligh deck packed with combo hate as well, given many of our recent additions to the format.

The generalization further breaks down when one considers which decks are in fact combo. Is hulk combo? Mud? Gro? The Shining? Scepter Decks? Where is the breaking point?

This is not at all like combo winter. Combo winter was pure combo against other pure combo, and even when one combo was broken by restriction another came in and took its place. In terms of pure combo all we have are Long and Dragon, and truthfully i can deal with having them both in format. Both of them are beatable by control and metagamed aggro (fish, sligh w/ pillars, sui with wretches etc.) and prison.

I agree with PTW in that the combo/combo hate dichotomy is a reality of the meta game. I disagree with you, Centroles, that it is a bad thing.

-thefram

[centroles]

so essentially, you're saying that just because there are various decks that can win or take control of the board on turn one or two, it's not a problem.

you're saying the dci shouldn't do anything and watch as decks become more and more degenerate until consistent turn one wins are expected. until the game is decided by nothing more than a coin flip.

even in the first combo winter, many combo decks needed more than three turns to win the game or take control of the board. right now in vintage, combo decks are expected to be able to win consistently on turn one or two to be able to compete, and all other decks are expected to pack 11-12 cards maindeck specifically to hate out combo and many more maindeck cards primarily to deal with combo like Force of Will on top of devoting most of their sideboards to combo decks as well?

you're saying we should just accept this as the norm. that having magic turn into about as interactive as black jack is acceptable.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree that a majority of the match ups may seem very paper scissors rock, but games DO see play past turns 2-4. As much as Magic is currently getting the, "Fundamental turn 2" hype ... it has also grown in its capacity to support very intricate and long term games. Just look at Fish.

[centroles]

I'm not argueing that no games go past turn two etc. Decks that dedicate much of their slots to main deck and sideboard hate like fish can delay and slow down combo. The question is, should they have to.

I know there are a lot of people on this forum that own copies of cards and probably decks that stand to lose out from dci restrictions.

This is expected as many people here are some of the more dedicated of vintage players and thus own a great many cards and decks.

I only ask that you think about the greater good and try to distance yourself from the cards you own and the decks you play when talking about how to make the game more interactive, fun, open to more people and more deck types, and skill based though this is extremely hard to do.

Sure not everyone  plays combo. Those that don't have the power cards to play combo or workshop based combo are forced to play one of the two or three combo hate decks that can afford to pack a fourth of there main deck and almost all of their sideboard to combo hate cards. And even in such a situation, combo often has the upper hand.

Lets all just accept that no deck that doesn't dedicate a fourth of itself to hating out combo will ever again be playable in vintage as long as turn two combo wins or turn two workshop based combo board control is the norm.

[P_f]

I think some people are just over-reacting about combo decks. In my opinion, this is far from combo winter. During combo winter, everyone played combo, if you didn't, you lose.

In type 1 right now, the top tier decks don't just consist of combo. Some people even doubt if Long is even in the top tier. Sure its blazingly fast but it usually dies to a force of will or gets slowed down a lot by a simple chalice. It also punishes the player for making small play mistakes.

Without a doubt, Dragon is clearly the superior combo deck, showing better results but even dragon needs to contend with other great decks like Keeper, mud, GAT and Fish.

I'd say with the exception that the typical budget aggro has died, the meta is fine. The only thing that should be fixed is bringing good ol' sligh back.

[centroles]

Sure not everyone  plays combo. Those that don't have the power cards to play combo or workshop based combo are forced to play one of the two or three combo hate decks that can afford to pack a fourth of there main deck and almost all of their sideboard to combo hate cards. And even in such a situation, combo often has the upper hand.

Anyone who doubts that long is the most powerful deck in vintage right now has never played against a half way decent long player. and there is almost no chance that Force of Will can be cast to slow down the deck inspite of the onslaught of duresses and othe rdisruptions. Force of Will won't stop or even slow down long against a good long player.

Lets all just accept that sligh will never again be playable in vintage as long as turn two combo wins or turn two workshop based combo board control is the norm.

[BrokenDeck]

That last post seemed like a lame way of saying: Restrict everything I don't own so the game is more fun.  You can't ask people to "distance" themselves from their cards, the reason they got the cards is because they liked them more.  On the topic of whether this is a combo winter, I would say yes.  While people say stuff like "well, stax is there to stop combo!" most workshop based decks are combo decks also.  Yes, going turn two sphere of resistance, tangle wire, Cotv x=1, goblin welder is only possible through a combo.  While it is not a game winning combo, it is a soft lock combo.  So in reality all the good decks are at least part combo.

[Smash]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 29 2003,14:55)Sure not everyone  plays combo. Those that don't have the power cards to play combo or workshop based combo are forced to play one of the two or three combo hate decks that can afford to pack a fourth of there main deck and almost all of their sideboard to combo hate cards. And even in such a situation, combo often has the upper hand.

Anyone who doubts that long is the most powerful deck in vintage right now has never played against a half way decent long player. and there is almost no chance that Force of Will can be cast to slow down the deck inspite of the onslaught of duresses and othe rdisruptions. Force of Will won't stop or even slow down long against a good long player.

Lets all just accept that sligh will never again be playable in vintage as long as turn two combo wins or turn two workshop based combo board control is the norm.

You overestimate long. Dragon does a better job smashing through the field. Long is just the new version of old school academy...

[centroles]

a faster more resilent version of one of the most powerful combo decks in the history of magic is pretty hard to overestimate. especially when that deck consistently pulls off turn one or turn two wins.

[thefram]

Centroles, not only have i played against a good Long player, i have also beaten them. You are being reactionary. Even PTW said that he doesnt have a real problem with this duality.

In the weeks since the introduction of mirroding how decent sized many tournies has Long won? NONE. Fish has won more in that last few weeks than Long.

As for dragon, does dragon win turn 1? No. Can dragon be easily hated? Yes. Doesn't anyone remember T1 worlds when hulk and keeper were boarding 2-3 coffin purge for Rector? That same simple hate worked just as well for Dragon, even if the intent wasn't clear. Centroles, you have latched your teeth into this issue as evidenced by your recent posting volume on it, but your personal point is just not true.

This is simply not a second combo winter. Non combo decks whos aim is not strictly to oust combo are in fact viable, so why do you insist this is the case? Its just untrue.

-thefram

[centroles]

fram, with all due respect, most people posting here seem to disagree with you. you're welcome to your opinion that almost everyone else has admitting that the only viable decks left in vintage are combo decks, workshop based combo decks that also pack a bunch of combo hate, or decks dedicating atleast fourth of themselves and almost all of their sideboard to hating out combo like fish and possibly chalice black (even though it's questionable if chalice black is even competitive).

perhaps the reason that fish wins more smaller tournaments is because so few people have all the power cards needed to play long. the same applies for workshop based decks. in addition, a lot more people have experience with fish because it's been around for years while long is essentially a brand new deck and takes a lot of time to master. but the raw power of long and workshop decks ensures that they will slowly come to dominate most large tournaments if somethign sin't done to slow them down.

dragon is one of the most resilient and difficult decks to hate out and it is more than capable of turn one wins. it too will greatly distort the metagame if not slowed down.

[thefram]

I dont see where you get these delusions of agreement from. I see alot of posts in disagreement. Regardless, Both long and workshop have not been winning to much at all in the recent past, which proves not that are weak (since few people play them excellently, and few people have all the cards for either) but that they are not overly and distortingly powerful in vintage.

Its not that dragon does not win turn one, it does, it's that it is built much more for resiliency and protection than the speed Long is known for. It is not an unhatable deck, and therefor not a real problem.

[centroles]

fram, you have ALWAYS opposed changes to the banned and restricted list. the format would already be nothing more than a coin flip if the dci went by that policy.

i have yet to see anyone challenge my statement that the current meta consists entirely of combo and combo hate decks with so much as an example.

anything can be hated out, even the decks of combo winter. the problem is that when decks need such a large number of hate cards to be hated out, they lose out on their ability to beat random aggro decks and become largely unplayable.

i agree that so few people currnetly have the cards for long, welder mud, dragon etc since they're rare cards and the decks are very very new that they're not currently format distorting in small tournaments.

but the power level of the decks is unquestionable. thus they will dominate major tournaments and events and will come to dominate smaller tournaments too once more people find out about them and master them. ant unless something is done, this will be very format distorting.

[BreathWeapon]

Combo is a relative term.

Hell, you could call Hulk a combo deck because it wishes for Berserk ... or Fish Combo because it uses Standstill with Man Lands. What Magic has become, is a game where decks are incredibly more synergistic than their predecessors. We "Micro-Combo." I think your perception of the term Combo is far too limited Centroles. Just say Long and Dragon and be done with it.

[centroles]

where in my post did i call fish combo, a combo is when a deck can win or set up numerous soft locks consistently on the first and second turns.

type 1 is now made up of such decks or decks that play enough hate against those decks to be able to slow them down and have atleast a small chance of squeezing out a win. and most of these decks lose to random rogue decks.

[ctthespian]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 29 2003,16:13)where in my post did i call fish combo, a combo is when a deck can win or set up numerous soft locks consistently on the first and second turns.

Actually a deck designed to have multiple locks out quick is called a prison deck.  aka MUD variants.  The format is far from being the combo winter of Academy days back in the Urzas block.

Aggro decks have taken a hit.  The old circle of Combo > Aggro > Control > Combo is still somewhat there.  However with the tuning of control decks and Combo becoming quicker, Aggro just doesn't have as much of a punch.

If restrictions come they either have to be well thought out in order to be few or they have to be many.  Dragon and Keeper seem to be the best choices to play now.  Long is too inconsistent, especially if the field is host to many control decks.  In my opinion a properly errated Dragon or it's animating cards will bring the format back to a better balance.

-Keith

[centroles]

I completely agree with you. A couple of key restrictions can make the format a lot more enjoyable.

exactly who is it benefiting that once long, welder mud and dragon become more popular the format turns into as bastian described it (edited into original post as well)...

Quote Magic is a game that's meant to be played between human players, therefore it requires interaction. When that interaction is reduced as much as possible, then what's this? A solitaire card game?

Prison and combo are decks that hardly estimulate player interaction. It turns games into one-player games. It really doesn't make sense, and it makes even less sense that there's actually people that don't matter this happening.

Sure that not all metagames allow for fully powered decks to exist. Not everyone can build a fully powered prison deck, or Long, etc... but there are environments where this is possible, and most players who dedicate themselves to type 1 have always a fully powered environment in mind.

Type 1 is on the verge of becoming degenerate. It that hasn't already happened... Let me repeat: degenerate. This isn't a compliment. It means the state of the format became unplayable, and too stupid to be good. The only thing that type 1 is currently achieving is the point of no player interaction.

Furthermore... I wouldn't mind playing t1.5 if I didn't like type 1 better. Why? Because it gives access to cards that I may have or want to use, and the same applies to other players who might have full sets of power, who want to play with them and dislike the state of the format. Are you going to suggest that them too should bow down to a game that doesn't stimulate player interaction and longer games?

Where's the fun of ending a game in a couple of turns..? It's like... "duh"!!  

[Toast]

This is nothing like combo winter. Sure you can say that the format is just combo and combo hate...but that is no different from saying the format  is just combo and control. Control = combo hate, just like combo = aggro hate. Nothing is wrong with the format, you are just looking at it with a very narrow perspective. Pure Combo, Pure Control, and Pure Aggro only accel in a format in which a large portion of the decks are that deck's best matchup (e.g. the only time stompy was viable was when the format was composed of keeper decks designed to beat other keeper decks, similarly a combo deck with no control aspect would be awful in a format dominated by mono-blue) If you diagnose what all of the currently viable decks are everything is a hybrid. Fish is aggro-control, most control decks have many combo aspects to them, and all combo decks need a control aspect to them to fend off control.

The format is healthy...things have only sped up because of lots of innovation, if people stopped whining and started innovating they could easily find ways to stop the top decks. It just requires a little more effort because the top decks are better. I do not think restricting cards is a good answer. Playing in a format where you are constantly scared your expensive deck will be smashed with restrictions is worse than having a fast format because fast is exactly what people signed up for when they started playing vintage...where do you think the format got the "T1 is all coinflips" stereotype. Vintage is also known as the format where you can always play with your cards. while this is technically true even if the card gets restricted...do you really think the keeper player could keep on playing their deck if Manadrain was restricted? or prison player if Workshop was restricted? certain restrictions are effectively bannings and decisions that effect the players like that should be thought through carefully. Is anything really dominating the format? If so is there no way of stopping it? the answer to both questions is no. It is foolish and misinformed to say otherwise.

[Smash]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 29 2003,15:15)fram, with all due respect, most people posting here seem to disagree with you. you're welcome to your opinion that almost everyone else has admitting that the only viable decks left in vintage are combo decks, workshop based combo decks that also pack a bunch of combo hate, or decks dedicating atleast fourth of themselves and almost all of their sideboard to hating out combo like fish and possibly chalice black (even though it's questionable if chalice black is even competitive).

perhaps the reason that fish wins more smaller tournaments is because so few people have all the power cards needed to play long. the same applies for workshop based decks. in addition, a lot more people have experience with fish because it's been around for years while long is essentially a brand new deck and takes a lot of time to master. but the raw power of long and workshop decks ensures that they will slowly come to dominate most large tournaments if somethign sin't done to slow them down.

dragon is one of the most resilient and difficult decks to hate out and it is more than capable of turn one wins. it too will greatly distort the metagame if not slowed down.

thefram has shown to me he has a greater clue than you do. So chalk me up on his side...

Your fish quote is classic.

"perhaps the reason that fish wins more smaller tournaments is because so few people have all the power cards needed to play long. the same applies for workshop based decks. "

hah.

I have the power to play both. I play neither. Why?
1) Long is just a combo deck. It does great vs. aggro, but tons of decks hate it, and control is still a hard matchup.
2) Workshop decks have brutal openings, but are not consistant enough to be that amazing.

I would not be suprised if you have never placed well in a competitive tournament from the quality of your posts...

[ctthespian]

Re-Quoting that was unnecessary.  I did read it the first time, long ago when it was posted by the original author.  However if you feel the need to bring it up again let me argue the points of it.

T1 or Vintage is the game of magic as I see it.  If you say that to play a prison deck is not right though.  The cool thing about Magic is the many forms and stratagies that decks can use.  Sure playing against prison may not be fun, but you won't see me scoop if I think my deck has options or paths to victory.

Powered, unpowered Metas.  Hell I'm from NE and proxy tournys have solved that problem.  Every kid with a llanowar elf has full power in a deck here.  Again though it's vintage, you're playing with the big boys and all the cards are game.

As far as player interaction and games ending in 1 turn.  I played in a tournament in Rhode Island the other weekend.  Maybe 30 people tops, great players all of them.  The field was mostly Keeper, GAT, Dragon and some MUD.  I was running Long, not very well mind you against all control matchups.  I've never seen so many decks designed to go off quickly with combos end up going to time.  Maybe the answer to that is that these decks don't win on turn two when played against correctly.  I think 50 minutes with two people flopping cards consists of interaction in my mind.

You agreed to my previous post in which I was saying that I still think the meta is pretty health, although aggro needs some serious work to become a competitor again.  Dragon is a deck that everyone should plan for, like sligh or burn in days past.  I said if any restrictions are made they should be well thought out and more like erratas, something I don't think the DCI will do.  However if the DCI does not do a good job come Monday and restricts some cards of top offenders, or greater powers help us, they listen to people in this community and restrict many cards that are being called for.  Just move over for the next degenerate deck to move up the ranks.  There will always be one to replace it. (Hell a highlander deck could be degenerate in T1, restrict away)  Look what happened to Dragon when entomb got restricted, it got better not worse.

If you keep trying to fix or reinvent the wheel, it'll stop rolling and where will that get you.

-Keith