The following is a quote from a post that a brand new bas...

[David Hernandez]

The following is a quote from a post that a brand new basic/newbie Forum member made yesterday.  He was torn apart by members of the community and his thread was closed.

I don't know him, but i was ashamed to see the responses that he got from more experienced players.  IMO, players with some time in the trenches should be sharing the "why" and "why not" of certain strategies, rather than crushing the life out of an excited new member.

With that said, I'm going to repost his deck list (without the caps lock...), and go over some why/why not for the deck that is GAT.  

ShorinRyu12 said:

Quote
OK we all know how good Fastbond works with Future Sight. So here is a decklist that completely abuses those two effects and makes Mr. Teeth and Quirion Dryad (edited) some pretty huge "Hulks".

CREATURES:
3X Psychatog
3X Quirion Dryad

COMBO:
4X Horn of Greed
4X Exploration
1X Fastbond
3X Future Sight

SUPPORT SPELLS:
4X Duress
4X Brainstorm
4X Slight of Hand
1X Berserk
1X Tinker
1X Crop Rotation
1X Ancestral Recall
1X Time Walk
1X Regrowth
1X Demonic Tutor
1X Mystical Tutor

MANA:
1X Black Lotus
1X Mox Sapphire
1X Mox Emerald
1X Mox Jet
1X Sol Ring
4X Underground Sea
4X Tropical Island
4X Undiscovered Paradise
3X Bayou
1X Tolarian Academy

Definately NOT a top 4 Tourney deck, but a lot of fun to play with.  Goes off like 4th turn on average.  Also good for playing "Overkill Ante".

Note to ShorinRyu12: Your deck only has 59 cards.  You need to add one (it looks like you forgot to add Library of
Alexandria).

First off, anyone just learning to play GAT needs to study the deck as it is played in high level tournaments.  This is
because there are cards that belong in the deck, and other that don't.  Some of these inclusions/exclusions are obvious
and some are subtle, and some are choices you have to make based on what you see at your local tournaments.

Read the following threads in their entirety.  Don't just skim them--study them.  I would have posted a link to a
GAT Primer, but there isn't one.  These links are essentially the GAT Primer that exists.

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....tog+gat

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....gat;st=
0

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....tog+gat

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....5;st=20

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....83;st=0

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=12026

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;hl=gat

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....8;st=20

ok, that's enough. When you're done studying those, you should have a solid understanding of what's going on.

The following thread lists the builds that are winning in recent tournaments:

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....05;st=0

...and here is the deck that took 2nd place out of 110 people.  I have arranged the cards so you can see the
functionality of the cards listed, rather than their color:

Waterbury, TMD Open, 110 people 11/16/03
played by Ben Taraskevich, 2nd Place

GAT

//Kill Mechanism
2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

//Counter Ability
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Duress

//Draw Engine
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

//Search Engine
1 Vampric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning WIsh
1 Demonic TUtor

//Recursion
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth

//Reset-Emergency Button
1 Pernicious Deed

//Acceleration
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox EMerald
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet

//Defense Against Various Power Lands
1 Strip Mine

//Extra Draw Engine
1 Library of Alexandria

//Basic Lands vs. Blood Moon and Back to Basics and Wastelands
2 Island

//Supporting Color
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

//Get What You Need, Defend Against Wastelands, and Reshuffle Your Deck
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

//Built so that many of the cards can be fetched with Cunning Wish from the Main Deck.  This is called a "Toolbox
Sideboard"

Sideboard:
2 Naturalize
1 Annul
1 Zuran Orb
2 Coffin Purge
2 Null Rod
1 BEB ("Blue Elemental Blast")
1 Stifle
1 Berserk
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Smother

It's not my intention to write a primer! I want to explain why some of the cards in ShorinRyu12's list are not used in a
typical GAT build, and why others are.  If you read through the threads I listed earlier, you may already have figured
some of this out, and you can go read something else.

Here is Shorin's kill mechanism:

3x Psychatog
3x Quirion Dryad

Many of the current GAT decks are running 3 Tog's, but the tendency is leaning towards running only 2.  As for Quirion
Dryad's, you really want to be running 4.  Since the restriction of Gush, Tog's are weaker in this deck.  If you want to run more Tog's, then you need to run a Hulk deck.

Lets look at Shorin's "Combo":

COMBO:
4X Horn of Greed
4X Exploration
1X Fastbond
3X Future Sight

In essence, this is a Turbo-Nevyn engine (see

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....turbo+l for a

recent build), but adds Future Sight.

Future Sight allows you to see the card on top of your library, and play it as if it were in your hand.  This makes cards
like Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, and Fastbond "broken".  If Fastbond is on the board with Future Sight, you can put lands into play if they are revealed by Future Sight.

Shorin is trying to use Exploration ("you may play an additional land this turn...") as if they are the same as Fastbond, looking for the acceleration that the Future Sight/Fastbond combo gives.  Then he is using Horn of Greed as a draw-engine that attempts to abuse the extra lands that are played.  This isn't really a "Combo"--it's a draw engine.  

Unfortunately, in a GAT build, Future Sight is slow to get on the board (especially with GAT running 21 mana sources or fewer), and if you have more than one in the deck you will find that the are sitting in your hand.  You will wish that you had something else to play, especially when you're getting rolled over by a Mishra's Workshop based deck, a Dragon Deck, a Long's Burning Tendril's deck, etc.  In the meantime, you will lose the game.  This means that Shorin's draw-engine is not optimized.

This is also one of the reasons that GAT players who run a Future Sight will also run 4 Mana Drains. Additionally, the
amount of search capability (by way of Tutors) helps the current decks get what they need when they need it, so multiples of some cards are not required.

The bottom line is: Future Sight and Fastbond can work in GAT if you run one of each (Fastbond is restricted anyway) and support them with Mana Drains.  The other cards in Shorin's draw-engine should be removed in favor of something else, most notably Accumulated Knowledge.

Now look at Shorin's Support Spells:

4X Duress
4X Brainstorm
4X Slight of Hand

1X Berserk
1X Tinker
1X Crop Rotation
1X Ancestral Recall
1X Time Walk
1X Regrowth
1X Demonic Tutor
1X Mystical Tutor

Duress, Brainstorm, and Sleight of Hand are all excellent.  They are disruption, draw, and growth for the Dryad.  Some GAT decks used Opt instead of Sleight of Hand, which you would have read about in the threads given earlier.

Gush is missing from the deck.  This is a mistake.  In almost ALL of the current winning decks, Gush is still run in the
main deck.  Some decks put it in the Sideboard, and use Cunning Wish to go get it.

Berserk belongs in the Sideboard in favor of Cunning Wish.  Do not underestimate the flexibility and power of Cunning
Wish!  There should be no less than TWO in the main deck, and many players advocate 3 as the minimum number. This is a tutor-style card that can get you a win condition (like Berserk) or something that will save your game (like getting a
Coffin Purge vs. Rector-Trix or Rector-Tendrils).

Tinker does not belong in this deck.  It's a tutor, but is normally used for fetching Memory Jar.  GAT never runs the
type (or number) of artifacts that would merit running Tinker.

Crop Rotation is part of Shorin's draw-engine, probably looking to fetch Tolarian Academy for mana generation while
drawing cards from Horn of Greed.  It does not belong in this deck.  Also, Tolarian Academy is very weak because of the
small number of artifacts in the deck.  It should be dropped.

Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Demonic Tutor, and Mystical Tutor are pretty standard in any GAT build.  They should stay.

Regrowth is still a coin-flip for many GAT players.  There are some people who think it belongs in the deck, and others
who think it is weaker with the loss of Gush.  It can stay if you like it.

Shorin's mana base:

1X Black Lotus
1X Mox Sapphire
1X Mox Emerald
1X Mox Jet
1X Sol Ring
4X Underground Sea
4X Tropical Island
4X Undiscovered Paradise
3X Bayou
1X Tolarian Academy

The Lotus and Moxes belong in the deck, as do the Underground Seas and Tropical Islands.  As mentioned before, the Tolarian Academy needs to be dropped.  

Sol Ring is questionable.  Many GAT players are using it for acceleration.  I personally think it can be dropped in favor
of a Strip Mine.

Shorin is running 3 Bayous in order to support the amount of green that his build runs.  The biggest problem here is that
GAT shouldn't be running the green cards that he has chosen, for reasons described earlier (and as seen in the links
provided).  The Bayous and Tolarian Academy should be replaced by Fetch Lands, typically 4 Polluted Delta's.  The GAT builds that win usually have no less than 5 Fetch lands, with the 5th one being a Flooded Strand.  These let you get any color that you need.

The Undiscovered Paradise's are interesting.  Since these bounce back to your hand, the thought here would be that they can be used to pitch into the Graveyard to pump a Tog, and with Fastbond/Exploration could be played again if needed (along with another land).  This is a Turbonevyn strategy, and should be avoided here.  If you are planning on using a Turbonevyn engine, you will need to run 1 or 2 Zuran Orb's, and you end up playing Turbonevyn (which is tuned and proven).  The Undiscovered's should be removed in favor of 1 Fetchlands, 1 Library of Alexandria, and 2 Islands (remember we added 4 Fetchlands a second ago, when we pulled the Bayou's and Tolarian Academy).  This would give five fetchlands.  Basic Islands are very strong.  They are insurance against Wastelands, Blood Moons, and Back To Basics.  There should always be at least one basic Island in GAT.

Cards that are MISSING from the build:

Whenever you run black in a deck, Yawgmoth's Will needs to be in it.  This card is simply one of the best cards ever printed in the game.

Gush needs to be in the deck.  If not in the main, then in the sideboard.

Some GAT builds use Fact or Fiction in the Sideboard, and use Cunning Wish to get it.  I don't run it, but it is a viable option.

Merchant Scroll and Vampiric Tutor can be used, and should also be considered, though there is debate amoung players as to their strength.

Many GAT builds are now running 1 Pernicious Deed in the main deck.  This is used as a "reset" button when things go wrong, or to gain advantage when the opponent has taken the lead.  Clearing the board, and then dropping cards that you have been holding back, can often turn the game when played correctly.  Not everyone uses Pernicious Deed, but I have seen it win games that should have been lost.

Library of Alexandria absolutely belongs in GAT. This card is standard.  It is what we call a "Broken" card, because it's benefits far outweighs it's "casting cost" AND it's a permanent source of card advantage (in the way of an extra draw).

The Sideboard

The sideboard is an important consideration, even more so if you are running Cunning Wish in your main deck.  You want to be able to go get cards that can gain advantage for you, or save you from certain death, or both.  The "Toolbox" sideboard gives you this, but you must run no less than 2 Cunning Wishes.


I hope this helps.

--Dave.\n\n

[Ric_Flair]

I was one of the people who made fun of the deck.  I am here to apologize for being mean.  It was inappropriate and rude.  

That said, I think that when people post they need to at least reread or edit the posts for mistakes like missing cards, words spelled incorrectly, and grammar/formatting mistakes.  I am not saying that this justifies my rudeness, because it doesn't, but merely to point out that there needs to be some sort of quality control.

[Falc]

Wow.. What am amazing post, Mr. Hernandez!  Very big kudos to you.  This is the kind of reception newbies should get when they make dumb posts.  Maybe then more of them would learn and come back.

Very nice!

- Falc

[graedus]

PROPS to Dave! Quite a demonstration of civility.

Quote (David Hernandez.Dec. 12 2003 @ 13:20)IMO, players with some time in the trenches should be sharing the "why" and "why not" of certain strategies, rather than crushing the life out of an excited new member.

You are SO right! Specially if you check lately the quality of the "Members'" posts. Unless they have something good to add to a thread, they just wait around to make one line replies fit and make them not look like dorks and up their post count.

Quote (Kerzkid11.Dec. 11 2003 @ 21:36)BEING A FUCKING MORON: CHECK

OMG! Just a question, but aren't mods around exactly to avoid this kind of stuff? And isn't this forum precisely for newcomers to make mistakes without being slaughtered? I would understand a reaction of this kind in the Vintage forums, and still not have tolerated being expressed that way.

Quote (Matt The Great.Dec. 11 2003 @ 21:43)I don't even have to look past the font to know that this needs fixing. Preemptive closure.

That was that user's first post and you had nothing to comment or add before closing it? That's the way you encourage new users to try to become fine members of the vintage community? WOW!

I'm so disgusted, I will just stop following up this site for a while. I don't need to read this kind of crappy flames.

[Dr. Sylvan]

While I did not actually post in the thread, I briefly linked to it in my signature with an obvious implication that I found it funny, and I'm sure that if the thread hadn't been closed I would not have been above making an immature post. I would like to publicly add my apology for that. This forum normally treats basic users much better than that (I should know, I recently was one); I don't know what caused a bunch of capital letters to possess our collective brains. David has shown us the correct way to respond to unrefined or inexperienced deckbuilders, and we should remember this for as long as possible.

David Hernandez, you have earned much respect for this thread. Quite probably the most mature, courteous thing I've ever seen on the internet.

Sincerely,
Philip Stanton

[Matt The Great]

In reply to graedus:

The mods WERE around -- I closed it. Also, though this was apparently lost on you, I was referring to the fact that anyone who posts like that is not going to recieve any helpful information, especially not after the first couple replies set the tone. I've also formally apologized to the guy and written a scathing rebuke of our rude members in the community forum. But doing your homework before branding me closed to new members and their ideas (which could NOT be further from the truth) is just too much trouble, isn't it? It's just so much easier to assume the worst intentions when a moderator closes a topic, isn't it?\n\n

[Raziel]

David,
     I missed the original post. I went back to read it. Pretty bad. My props to you Mr. Hernandez.
     Tom

[Binary]

Quote (David Hernandez @ Dec. 12 2003,16:20)I don't know him, but i was ashamed to see the responses that he got from more experienced players.  IMO, players with some time in the trenches should be sharing the "why" and "why not" of certain strategies, rather than crushing the life out of an excited new member.

Well said.

I lurked on this site for about a week or so before I even registered, and I only found out about the site because Menendian mentions it every bloody Friday.

One thing I noticed straight away was the abundance of "X sucks, play Y instead" without any explanation of why X sucks or why Y is better.

While in some cases the reasons are pretty clear, in others they aren't... and the environment improves when people can really justify their card choices instead of claiming the status quo as evidence.

Your post is a prime example of what deck discussion should be.

[Kerzkid11]

Quote The following is a quote from a post that a brand new basic/newbie Forum member made yesterday.  He was torn apart by members of the community and his thread was closed.

I don't know him, but i was ashamed to see the responses that he got from more experienced players.  IMO, players with some time in the trenches should be sharing the "why" and "why not" of certain strategies, rather than crushing the life out of an excited new member.

No. See.. his post was a joke. It was in all caps, had a obviously supoptimal decklist, and talked about tog and dryad as "queer buddies". Making fun of it was justified, and I am not ashamed to say that I blasted him. There are forum rules for a reason. People KNOW you arn't supposed to ever type in all caps. The post was going to be deleted anyway, because we have competent mods who see that shit and rid our forums of it.

Being ashamed of the responses to a post with this kind of content isn't really justified.

I will apologize if this kid was serious, but that post was ridiculous. Posting in all caps isn't accepted anywhere.

AIM Convo.

kerzkid14: hey- i got a question
kerzkid14: did you and the other mods take offense to me/other people comments on the TURBO GRO thread?
MattTG: well i dont know about the others
MattTG: but yeah, i thought it was kind of out of line
kerzkid14: it might have been, but did he expect to get serious responses to *that* post?
kerzkid14: i knew it was going to be closed
MattTG: he might not have any idea of what makes a deck good or ont
kerzkid14: but posting in all caps isnt accepted anywhere
MattTG: you guys should have tried to explain why certain things work and certain things dont
MattTG: right
MattTG: and someone told him that
MattTG: and that should have been that
MattTG: but no
MattTG: everyone decided that they wanted ot get in on making fun of this guy before the thread got closed
kerzkid14: thats true
MattTG: and it really wouldnt have been closed if that hadnt happened
MattTG: i would have just rewrote his post to use proper caps
MattTG: and left a message that he shouldnt wroite like that
MattTG: just like when someone writes in neon yellow or something
MattTG: I edit it to black and leave a message.
kerzkid14: yeah
kerzkid14: well i apologize for making the site that much worse, it was out of line now that i think of it.. but the caps lock kinda set me off
MattTG: yeah it's annoying but everyone has to learn to control themself
kerzkid14: and i usually do
kerzkid14: but yeah, i was wrong on this one
MattTG: well you're a bigger man for being able to say that
MattTG: it's all forgiven as far as I'm concerned
kerzkid14: thanks i appreciate it.\n\n

[SummenSaugen]

On the off chance it wasn't a joke, I will also apologize.  I forgot exactly what I wrote, but it certainly wasn't on a level of goodness to what Dave Hernandez took the time to do.

*Applause for Dave*  Ya dun good, kid.  

[David Hernandez]

Hey,

It's cool that the members are posting here and adding comments.  It was not my intention to turn this into a thread that was seeking justification or apologies.

I just thought that the members who only have access to the Basic/Newbie Forum area should be taken more seriously.

I do contract work for the Dept. of Defense, and we have a couple of high ranking officers who leave their CAPS on for EVERYTHING.  It really can be annoying, but again, that wasn't the point of this post.  I always think they're yelling at me...

Kudo's to all of you who have commented.  I think it's fair to say to the new people that TMD is the BEST place to discuss deck tech and to get the freshest ideas.  The community of members is really NOT a group of "jerks".  You will find that we're pretty cool with each other, and some have been around so long that they are very close.  When you have a group of friends hanging around, it's easy to understand one anothers humor, and you will often see posts that are flaming BUT are done in fun.

I was trying to give the Basic Forum users an opportunity to discuss GAT, since they cant do it in the other areas.

At this point, I'd actually like to see some GAT deck discussion by the group.

TMD is the best.  The members are high caliber players.  New guys, please remember that we are human...

Dave.

[SummenSaugen]

I can't really add much to the conversation.  I've never spent much time studying GAT.  However, I have noticed it's one of the more difficult decks to effectively hate.  Perhaps that could get some discussion rolling?

[Dr. Sylvan]

From my limited experience, one of the ways to keep GAT from getting in full gear is Wasteland. With just one Gush to protect the lands, it's much more effective, and if you can manage to do it twice (or add a Mox Monkey to the mix), then a GAT deck can be forced into topdecking mode with minimal or no mana. Any fewer than 21 mana sources is pretty short supply, imo, though I'm still learning the deck.

[BuboniC]

I don't know GAT as well as I do Hulk, but why is there no Intuition? It should feed Accumalated Knowledge, Tog, and boost spell count for dryad/fetch an answer. Once again im not exactly a "guru" of GAT, but I just would like to know- why not?

[Ultima]

Honestly, GI and I talked about it awhile ago.  Basically, it comes down to that there are not enough slots for it and GAT relies more on Dryads where cycling AKs have a bigger effect then intuition to aks do.  Playing out 4 spells make them bigger then playing out 2 of course.

[eddavatar]

Dave: you are great. Thanx.

As on the intuition issue, i've said earlier that i found it very nice to have in GAT in most situations. I personally run 2 copies. Keep in mind that Intuition can also be used as a desperation tutor for Force/counter and can also help set up a big yawg will. It's also a pitchable spell to force/misd. It almost never disappoint me and i even fetch it w/ DT once over ancestral. As on the growing the dryad issue, i never actually have play out all 4 aks anyways.....the usual effective dryad would be like around 6/6 to 7/7....AK's too clunky as a cantrip early on. w/o drawing at least 2 cards off AK, its kinda bad.

[Flurp™]

I think that intuition is unneeded in GAT.  I almost never only draw into 1 AK.  Its just the play style of GAT, Hulk uses huge bursts of cards to fule that one swing for victory, GAT cycles through the deck with cantrips makeing dryad bigger and killing in a few turns.  I origonally had 1 in my GAT build but found it unneccary.

[David Hernandez]

Actually, the Intuitions are not needed in GAT.  None of the top GAT finishers at the big tournaments have run it (with the possible exception of Grand Inquisitor, who happens to BE a Psychatog himself...that dude KNOWS this deck...).  There is enough draw in the deck to get them when you need them.

You will also see that the recent builds don't run Opt or Sleight of Hand, instead using Brainstorm and Acc. Knowledge.

The ability of GAT to draw into what it needs is very consistent.  This is due in great part to its Tutor's.  If you are currently running 2 Intuitions, they you would be better off replacing them with 2 Cunning Wish.

By the way, in the Vintage Forum you may notice that many of the members believe that GAT is dead.  They believe that with the restrictionn of Gush, the deck simply isn't as good as it **needs to be** in order to win.  They may be right, since GAT rarely takes first place anymore.  These same players often advocate Hulk instead, which DOES run Intuition as part of it's draw engine.

Wastelands were mentioned as a way to hurt GAT, and that's true post Gush restriction.  Still, GAT often "goes off" anyway because so many of the spells are inexpensive to cast.

--Dave.

edit: re: Intuition, Flurp beat me to it.  \n\n

[BrokenDeck]

Obviously GAT is not as powerful as it once was, but it used to top 2 every tournament, so that is expected.  GAT is very much alive in my opinion, it is just a more aggro version of Hulk with a better mana base (at least the three color versions).  While it has not won a major tournament recently, it does top eight tournaments frequently.

[Flurp™]

In GAT I am wondering what the optimal number of counter effects are, I have seen builds with anywhere from 8 to 18.

Choices:

Force of will: Always 4 of them.

counterspell/mana drain: I dont know which is superior in the deck, it has very little colorless mana in its costs but with scepter it could work.  Usually 4 of them some builds only use 3.

Misdirection: This is one of the key cards setting this apart from hulk.  Just the threat of it being in the deck makes people play much more carfully.  This card also gives the deck tempo, because more free counters are always good in the control match.  Usually 2 or 3 are used in most builds.

Duress:  I have had good results with this card, but most of the lists that I have seen do not run any.  This is another card that lets you safely cast threats without mana open for answers.  Most builds dont run it, but I think that 3 is the optimal number.

Stifle:  Many people think that the main use of this card is just for fetches and strips (which is a good reason to run it) but it is much more versital than that.  In almost any matchup I can find something to stifle, its just so versital.  Again, most builds dont run it, but I would run 2 or maybe 3.

Just for reference what I am useing for countering:
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
2 Misdirection
3 Duress
2 Stifle


Thoughts?

[eddavatar]

What I really don't understand is how people underestimate what intuition really do. It's more than just fetching AK, it also sets up yawg will and fetch counter as a desperation move. It also serves as a mana drain sink. The winning decks not running it is not going to dissuade me from using intuition, as i found it way too crucial to the deck, given that now it has a less explosive engine and play a longer game.

What i truely have problem with now is how wasteland and negator and mask hurt the deck way too much. That would be the main deterrent of GAT being competitive. Workshops doesn't help neither. But GAT is a fun and competitive deck that doesn't need too much finesse.

[Caelestis]

Funny how you mention the aspects of Intuition being a good mana sink at the same time as saying that GaT has a rough time against Mana Denial. When you are being hard pressed by mana denial, it is quite hard to find the leisure time to cast Intuition. Even with Drain, it forces you to tap a blue source on your turn, but yields minimal results in turns of pressuring your opponent. Things like Merchant Scroll-->Ancestral is much better compared to Intuition in this aspect with that it yields a greater net gain, with the same amount of mana involved. Intuition can be a nice trick, but when you have a chance to cast it, you should have got a healthy amount of board superiority down. At that point, it is overkill. It is not as gamebreaking as Future Sight or Deed, and not as verstile as Scroll or Mystical.

[BreathWeapon]

Anybody who wants to be taken seriously on these message boards needs to put in the time to read the threads and do their homework before hand. There is a wealth of experience and knowledge back logged on these boards, and they only take a couple of weeks to cover in depth ... most of them you can skim thru'. 9/10 the answer to your question has been already stated, and the cyclic nature of the Newb boards can become very tiresome at times. I agree that even silly decks and questions should be answered with Tact, but asking a question you have in no way attepmted to answer yourself at any length is just begging for it.

The TMD really isn't a "Newb Friendly" website, and people can either take that to heart or get burned.

[shorinryu12]

First off I would like to appologise myself for not explaining that the deck was built for mere fun then winning games. Second I would like to appologise for typing in all caps, but just because I am computer illiterate doesn't mean that I dont know how to play magic. I have been playing magic since 1996 and I compete with some of the best magic players is New England. "team   hadley". I brought this deck there today and was play testing it in between rounds and it didn't fare that bad beating snakes and madness in 2 out of 3. Instead of slamming a deck design why dont the ones who slammed my thread ignore it or maybe put in some of your suggestions. Didn't any see the part of the post that said its not tourney worthy and it was just for fun. Last of all, I 'm not a newbie Just because I have to post in a newbie forum since I just came on this website rescently doesnt mean I'm new to the game. Thanx to Dave for reposting for me and cleaning up my mistakes. Also to all that appologised .

[Ultima]

Ah, all that stuff about all caps sounds like crap anyway.  So someone posted in all caps, big damn deal.

Be a man and just ignore it if it bothers you, not a childish baby and make fun it.

If you ask me, people with crappy little attitudes like that should have their own damn forum labeled childish asses.

[David Hernandez]

Ah, the air is clear again.

Hey Shorinryu12:
I'm glad you posted again.  As for your original deck list not being "Tournament Worthy", that isn't what I got out of your post.  What i saw in it was an attempt to marry the successful draw-engine of a different deck-type with the proven power of "old GAT".

I find that just throwing an idea out for discussion can lead to the discovery of new combos, but remember that there are die-hard magic players here that are looking for cutting edge deck-tech to help them win tournaments...  I think that many more posts would be taken seriously if the topic originator opened with something like this:

"I've been studying the way GAT (for example) originally drew cards vs. the way other decks draw cards. Can the following strategy from deck xyz be used in GAT to optimize the draw engine?  If so why, and if not, why not...?"

This opens the way for serious discussion, which in turn could lead to some very innovative ideas.

Anyway, now that you have commented i'm hoping that the negative aspects of the original thread are over with.  Agreed?

in the meantime, BreathWeapon said

Quote ...put in the time to read the threads and do their homework before hand.

This is the key to this thread!  The links posted on page one have contributions from some of the best, most articulate Magic players regarding GAT.  I will read and study a thread and ask myself questions in order to comprehend the reasoning behind the use (or non-use) of a particular card.

Take Accumulated Knowledge/Intuition, for example.  It seems (at first) almost stupid(!) not to use 2 Intuitions.  Why?  Is it because Intuition can get you 3 Accumulated Knowledge?  Not necessarily.

Intuition can get you 3 Duress, or a Duress, Yawgmoth's Will, and an Accumulated Knowledge.  What kind of choice does that give your opponent?  Well, lets see...

a_) they can give you a card that will strip their hand.
b_) they can give you a card that will allow you to play almost everything that is in your graveyard, including the 2 cards they just made you throw away
c_) they can give you a card that will give you more cards.

So, Intuition looks like a natural fit.  The thing is, there are other very key components in GAT that must be in place in order for it to run.  Accumulated Knowledge doesn't really replace Gush--it actually replaces Opt or Sleight of Hand.  

Those cards give you ONE card while pumping your Dryad.  Now look at Accumulated Knowledge.  It gives you up to 4 cards, while pumping your Dryad.  If your opponent is also running Accumulated Knowledge, you could end up drawing enough cards to end the game with a pumped Tog or a huge Dryad on that same turn.

You don't need the Intuitions because the AK's are simply better than what was there before.

Everyone should study what Smennen, Grand Inquisitor, SauceMaster, Zhalfirin, and others have written about GAT. It's enlightening.

@Flurp:

Quote Just for reference what I am useing for countering:
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
2 Misdirection
3 Duress
2 Stifle

Thoughts?

4 regular Counterspells are good, but whether or not it is the "right counter" depends on the other cards in your build.  You should try replacing them with 4 Mana Drains, just to see if it runs better for you.  If it doesn't, then use Counterspells. As for the FoW and MisD's and Duress, those cards (in the quantities you are running) appear to be in line with what the most experienced GAT players are running.

As for Stifle, in GAT this has almost strictly been a sideboard card, and you would be fetching it with Cunning Wish. Recent builds are using 2 in the main (see Grand Inquisitors build in the Vintage Forum).

Remember, if you start pulling core components out of GAT in favor of what looks like something better, then you are really trying to morph the deck into a hybrid.  For example, 3 or 4 Stifle's are used in many builds of the "Fish" deck.  They work there because they are part of a larger strategy (like using them for mana denial by Stifling a Fetch Land, or by protecthing against a Tendril's deck while the weenie hordes fly over to win).  In GAT, you don't have a weenie horde--you are trying to win on a single turn or two with only one of 6 creatures in the entire deck.  Stifle doesn't fit into the strategy, but may be a more proactive way to gain tempo by Stifling the opponents Fetch Lands, or defending your own land by Stifiling strip effects (like Strip Mine and Wasteland).

You can Cunning Wish for the Stifle in order to survive the storm engine of a Tendril's of Agony that has been cast in your direction.  Thus, you will see only one Stifle in most GAT sideboards.  The strategy is to stay alive for one more turn, and then Berserk your Tog or Dryad.

Currently, there are "better" decks running in T1 than GAT (though GAT gives them a good run for the 'money'), but I believe that studying the theory behind the GAT deck (combined with actual testing) can make a better magic player.  The deck is not 'difficult' to play, yet has a terrific range of possibilities.

--Dave.\n\n

[jAcKiNaBoX]

ive started working on a new version of GAT i call it Fling A Tog or FAT. now that beserk is unrestricted why not play multiples? also ive been adding red to the mix for fling and cosey sideboard options such as rack and ruin cos a chalice for two realy messes up my day. i have had problems with the mana base and im thinking of cutting black all together.
some of my choices for discussion are :
fling - havent seen it being used, essentialy used as a finisher or in response to SToP, beserk then fling is just broken ending the game instantly on as little as turn 4

mana leak - essentialy easier to play then counter spell and in type one ive noticed that it has the same effect cos no one realy has three mana just sitting around

also if im gonna cut black im thinking of adding gamble as my tutor option

essentialy im writing this because id like to know if it is a viable if not more viable option than oldschool gat. basicaly whats your opinion?

just my 2 cents

[Godot]

Quote now that beserk is unrestricted why not play multiples?

Namely because its not really needed.  One in the sideboard is nice for quickly ending the game, but if you're gonna play multiples you'd be taking up valuable MD slots that could be better employed elsewhere.  You would be dropping card draw/counters/utility for a card that requires you to A) have a creature on the board and B) that creature must be of a significant size for berserk to be useful.  In which case, if you have a Tog out then berserk alone should be enough, and if you've grown a Dryad to a fair size then you're also again very likely in a position where berserk alone will the job and even then its not necessarily need all that often.

The same general arguments apply to Fling.  Furthermore, if you dont need multiple berserks why do you need Fling?  Even though Fling does have the advantage of getting around Maze of Ith and other such things, in general the cards you would have to remove to make room for Fling are just hella generally more useful.

As for the Berserk + Fling combo...if you are berserking something you should be winning anyway.

[jAcKiNaBoX]

i guess your right as i have little experience with GAT. my aproach was more speed orientated like dryad is 4/4 play berserk + fling/berserk -->game--> nice playing with you bye although i guess this aproach is more vulnerable i was just thinking if the meta is mostly control and combo, speed is what can dodge both of them. i do realize that the fling+berserk thing is actualy a three card combo relying on a creature, which is rather weak, but ive been reading alot about GAT lately and have been hearing stuff like "oldschool GAT is no good" or "after the loss of gush GAT never recoverd" i was just thinking outside the box trying to give GAT a shot in the arm...anyways back to the drawing board.

[Flurp™]

I know that this has been discused before, but it never really ended in a clear answer.  Should GAT run red?  Mostly red gives good SB options and Fire/ice, but it hurts the mana base.  In GAT Most of your lands are going to be non-basics anyway so even without red waistlands will always have a target, but things like bloodmoon and PoP will become better against you.  In my build I run scepter so red has been working very well because fire/ice is one of the best scepter targets.  Red really improves your workshow matchup, because you now can run Rack and Ruin and Atifact Mutation in the side.