What about this RG TnT?

[Gaea]

Actually I'm trying this version, feel free to comment:

Mana base:

4 wooded foothills
3 taiga
4 forest (these let Solemn do his work)
1 mountain
4 wasteland (maybe 3 to add 1 mountain?)
4 mishra's workshop
1 strip mine
7 solomoxen
(28 I think this is the right number!)

Creatures:

4 goblin welder
1 squee goblin nabob
1 anger
1 gorilla shaman

1 quirion ranger

(i think all these guys fit perfectly)

4 juggernaut
3 solemn simulacrum
2 su-chi
1 masticore (maybe 2° triskelion?)
1 triskelion
1 duplicant
1 platinum angel
1 karn silver golem

(22, I think that i can run onlly 21, but actually i don't know what to cut)

To make my deck work:

4 survival of the fittest
1 sylvan library

I don't think your spell is a good choice:

3 pyrostatic pillar (I'm thinking to run 61 cards to have 4 of them)
2 chalice of the void

Who has seen them:
memory jar (good choice with tinker, but i dont' play blu..)
wheel of fortune (trying it, sometimes is good, but actually i'm not so sure to play)
elvish lyrist (can give me turns Vs dragon, can stop an opponent's survival, future sight, ecc... but is a dead card Vs lots of decks)
sphere of resistance/tangle wire (i think chalice and pillar are better to stop my opponent)

My side (tuned for my meta, but if you have some suggestion..):
2 tormod's crypt
2 rack and ruin
1 viashino eretic
1 bottle gnomes
3 sphere of resistance
3 blood moon
3 REB

[Lord_Drazinus]

I would cut the masticore for trisk #2...when I played this deck, welding trisk into trisk ended many games quick...it also allows you to win while staring down a moat(IDK who plays it much anymore, but I have seen it...) I would try to fit memory jar in there...it can dum so much fat into the yard at one time its not even funny...if you choose to keep the 'core, find room for another squee, to you can pitch one to core and survival another squee atthe same time...if you want to use the elvish lyrist effect, use elf replica, that way you can weld it back in if need be...it's also easier to cast with the off color moxen and workshops...hope this helps,

Draz

[Gaea]

After this weekend tournament, i made come changes to the deck, now i'm convinced that 4 chalice are the best so my list now is:

-3 pirostatic pillar
+2 chalice of the void
+1 memory jar

And I also cut masticore for the 2° triskelion and duplicant for pentavus, i simply love the tricks of 2 triskelions and the advantage of pentavus' tokens

[Purple Hat]

I've found that Pyrostatic pillar is essential to the success of TnT.  I would be hard pressed to come up with a good argument for less then four, and I think less then three severly limits your chances of winning certain matchups.  it has often been compared to Standstill in that it forces your opponent to seriously consider any spell he is about to cast.  if you have threats on the table this can be huge.  with a juggy applying pressure your oppent is seriously limited in his ability to respond by the fact that any spell he plays that costs less then 3 and doesn't deal with one or more of your creatures will only serve to make him less likely to draw a solution by shortening the game.  this is true in all matchups for this deck.

Chalice on the other hand locks down a very narrow group of spells.  in the right matchup that can be devistating, for example chalice for 1 against sligh or chalice for 0 agaist storm decks, but still allows more versitile opponents, mostly multi color control, to do their thing.  I've found that putting chalice in the side can help to shore up some of these matchups if I'm having troubble, but in a lot of these matchups pyrostatic pillar is amazingly punishing anyway.

[ump]

Let me refer you to the following article.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6567
In the article, Steve Menendian said the following thing that I totally agree with.

Now that we have a solid foundation for understanding how the matchup and the decks operate, we have some basis for evaluating card choices. One heavily suggested and promoted card for the TnT deck is Solemn Simulacrum. I think if there is one lesson that can be pulled from testing, its that Simulacrum is simply awful against Tog. Taking advantage of Simulacrum requires forgoing the "beatdown' in favor of control - something clearly against the game plan of TnT presented so far. Drawing a few cards over a few turns is not a good Type One draw engine. Playing many large men and beating down as quickly as possible is the equal to the control decks card advantage.

That said, you should run no less than 4 Juggernaut and 4 Sui-Chi in TnT.  Being able to lay a big first turn threat is the primary goal and the key to success with this deck.  Everything else is just a backup condition.

[Gaea]

So would you cut a card because is awful vs tog? so cut karn cause is awful vs sligh, cut every cards that is awful vs combo ecc...
I can't cut a card that can make me win against all other artifacts deck and aggro deck just to win against the 2/3 togs of the tournament... my big ones in first turn can be also survival or you've forgotten i run it?
If you're not able to cast one card among 4 sotf, 4 juggernaut, 2 su-chi, maybe you should change deck... with simulacrumi can just control the game i draw and cut lands from the deck what you would like most? drawing land during the midgame? i don't know, maybe is better drawing more and better
bye

[Pinky]

with simulacrumi can just control the game i draw and cut lands from the deck what you would like most?

I would like to skip the midgame and finish my opponent. Once 'tog gets in the midgame, you're in big danger anyhow. TnT is a beatdown deck, not a control deck!

[Gaea]

4° place with simulacrum

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=89

2° place with simulacrum

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=91

so strange to see that Tnt in top8 run simulacrum...

maybe is just me...

[Webster]

Here are some of my thoughts:

-Masticore vs Trike: Core is really good against sligh and assorted 1 toughness decks. He does require quite a bit of non workshop mana to keep active, but he only costs 4 mana. With triskelion, he cost just an initial 6 workshop mana and then nothing afterwards. It is possible to drop either masticore or trike on turn 1 with workshop + mox/lotus, but on the average draw, trike won't be in play until turn 3-4 whereas masticore would be in play on turn 2 average.

-Pentavus vs Duplcant: Pentavus seems just too bulky to make it usefull. I would not include it for the same reasons why phyrexian collosus didn't make the cut in the early TnT days. The counter-argument for pentavus would be that, with survival/welder, he is amazing; with welder/survival, almost ANYTHING in TnT is amazing. Duplicant, at first glance, seems to fit into the creature control department that trike couldn't deal with; big creatures that are in play. Pentavus would serve better in slaver.dec where there is no survival and recurring your mindslaver is the crucial part of the deck.

-Quiron Ranger: I see no reason to play quirion ranger. He untaps your big men and protects your lands. His problem is that he doesn't protect your workshops, just your taigas. True, he does act like the fifth welder when another welder is in play, however, he just doesn't seem to be strong enough on his own.

-Memory Jar: Memory jar is a draw 7 for you. I see no reason not to inclue this.

-Solemn Simulacrum: I think this guy has a lot of potential. However, I don't see him being more than a 2-of. I would rather run the fourth pyrostatic pillar in the third simulacrum's place.


So, having presented the arguments for my deck changes, I will present the deck changes themselves:

IN:
+1 triskelion
+1 pyrostatic pillar
+1 memory jar

OUT:
-1 masticore
-1 quirion ranger
-1 solemn simulacrum

[Tainted_Wood]

I'm certainly skeptical about the simulacrum, so I would really like to hear from some of the people who have placed highly in big tournaments running Jens.

In what situations are people finding him usefull?  Would a Su-ch be sufficient in those situations?  what about a trike?

I find it really hard to run less than 8 Juggs + Su-chis.

[NastyNate]

Simulacrum is run in TNT for two reasons. The first being that the only draw engine the deck runs (SOTF) is very difficult to resolve in a control heavy meta. The second reason to run simulacrum, is that SOTF and Blood Moon, are both very ineffective cards to play when you do not control any basic forests.

What the simulacrum/goblin welder engine enables the TNT player to do, is to set up a secondary draw engine and put more basic lands into play, even under a blood moon. It also fuels the very hungry SOTF engine with green mana.

However the problem with the simulacrum is that at 4 mana, and just 2/2 power and toughness, it is little more than a mana intensive chump blocker.  That is awful for a deck who's primary goal is drop the opponent from 20 to 0 as quickly as possible.

So is it worth running?
Probably not.

There are those that have had great luck with MD simulacrums, but I believe that can be better attributed to powerful disruption, like Blood Moon, Pyrostatic Pillar, Chalice of the Void, Tangle Wire, Sphere of reisistance, etc, which can slow your opponent down enough so that the simulacrum can really shine. But who really wants to play a slow aggro deck, that relys on hate to occasionally win games that it shouldn't?

You need to run at least 8 Tubbies in TNT to apply early game pressure. Without that initial burst to draw out counters and removal spells, you will rarely be able to resolve your disruption or your draw engines. TNT needs to be agressive in order to be effective.

This is still a great deck, mind you, and I love piloting it, but TNT is just missing something...

[bel_riose]

speacking of something missing...

I run 3 MD Blood Moons with 4 Pillars. I agree that pillars are very useful, but MD Moons?
I run 2 trisk, 2 Simulacra, 4 Su-chi, 4 Juggernauth, 1 Platinum Angel, 1 Karn and 1 Masticore but I've had to kill shaman, quirion, phyr colossus, elvish lyrist (or elf replica now), sylvan library and used to play 6 fetch and now I use only 4.

I've used to play this version past sunday at an italian T1 league tourney and I'm no longer sure about MD Blood Moons.

Not every game you can start with 1st turn 4cc fatty, and you have to mulligan. You really cant start with 1st turn Moon and maybe so it is with 2nd turn.
Mostly of times your 1st fatty is forced/countered, you have to play the 2nd fast to apply pressure so you have to hardcast it, or play welder (if you have a mox in play) or play SotF (if you have a creature in hand).

With 4 pillars and 3 moons you have 7 more cards that cant be discarded via SotF (and so with wheel, artifact mana and lands).

With a fatty in play you have to take control, and so you can use pillars or moons. Then the 2R cc of moons can be 1 turn too high to be effective and maybe keeps you from playing another fatty or to build up your SotF combo (anger-squee).

Without moons I can add Sylvan Library (and that's good) and then quirion-colossus, 2 more fetches or quirion-shaman. And that smooths your mana curve adding 1cc and 2cc spell instead od 3cc spells.

Any ideas/suggestions?

[Cuandoman]

In all honesty the only reason to play this deck is to turn fat men sideways! The fatter the better.

Remember, as my fortune cookie once said: Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life.

With the above in mind, I would run 4 Chi's and try to include the Colussus in there.

Simulacrum is great as a 2-of

Set yourself up to beat control and then put in things for the near impossible combo matchup. Then again this is all dependant on your expected metagame. (It always goes back to that doesn't it?)

[Gaea]

I don't like MD moons,they improve your matchup vs combo or control, is true, but how many times you have been able to play it on first or at least second turn, is also a dead card vs a lot of deck, I actualli haven't any information about your meta, but in mine i can see zoo, randoma ggro like goblin or sligh or other artifacts deck that can easily play also with a moon in play, remember that players don't play only with dual and solomoxen... there are also decks that can ignore your moons, pillars ecc..
I think also that 3 pillars are enough, there are not thousand and thousand of fast combo to justify them.
Playing an aggressive or control version is just a personal choice, just the results can say exactly wich one's the best, for example in italy some people that haven'g got spoilers plays zoo, sligh or goblin decks all based on attaccking and making as soon as possible 20 damages, i run a sligh in 2 tournaments, that was not so aggressive like the others, one of them i made 5° place the other 14° and they were 63 and 74 people tournaments while the other more aggressive decks were in the bottom of the classification, what i want to say is that sometimes thinking just to your strategy without caring of the player in front of you won't pay.

[Dead-Pool]

I think the maindeck moon is defenitely needed in a high powered meta. Because they slow O.Stompy, they hurt dragon and draw7. They are cruel agianst Keeper, Hulk, and the like. They are just amazing and game winning in some matchup's and in matchup's like agianst a madness based deck they can slow them long enough to get you the win. They are just really good agianst around half the meta, if you are playing in Gaea's meta though with sligh and other artifact based decks, there is no need for them. If there isnt any control or combo you can even free up the sideboard slots. Then you have more slots to hate the meta. I think in an unknown meta the blood moon's need to be played but when you know your meta game and dont have to worry about Keeper/Hulk or Dragon. There is definately not a need for them, any 4 toughtness beatz creature sounds like a better play in his meta packed with sligh and other stacker.

[NastyNate]

Initially I was also against MD Moons. I played TNT back when it packed ZERO disruption cards. It was a deck designed to put other decks on a short clock with fat artifact dudes who could fly (via wonder) and had haste (via anger). It was designed to dodge The Abyss and Moat, and set up SOTF and angry welders to play fat or utility critters as needed to answer anything that hampered it's strategy. At that time Blood Moon was not only uneeded but only slowed you down.

However times have indeed changed. TNT now needs to be the deck packing "silver bullets." Pyrostatic Pillar is a perfect card for TNT; Not only does it cause problems for any non workshop based deck there is, it stays true to TNT's strategy. It speeds up the kill.

Blood Moon was not a card I wanted to rely on in order to attain victory. It did no damage, slowed down SOTF, forced the deck to drop blue from the mana-base, and was just high enough casting cost to prevent me from also being able to drop fat the same turn.

I have since changed my mind about it. Blood Moon is an excellent follow up to any resolved spell; weather that be Pillar, Fat Men, or SOTF. It simply seals games, against Hulk, Neo-GAT, Keeper, and Dragon. Blood Moon is the one spell that you can resolve that people scoop to. You just need good timing with it. Against control or combo the right time is ASAP, but against other decks like Slaver or Stax, you may never need it. Hey that's why we have sideboards.

TNT's greatest weakness, is that it must be able to play a threat every turn. First turn FOW, followed up by StP, followed up by cunning wish, is almost always enough for control to win the game. TNT is a tempo based deck that seeks to abuse workshop and moxen etc to play dudes that are much too large to and too quick to deal with; but it is because of these tempo boosters (Mana sources) which take up almost half of the deck that it topdecks so poorly and the deck simply has no room for 8 additional card draw spells. If Simulacrum makes the difference in this situation, great! However Simulacrum needs a welder in play in order to be effective, and generally if you have an active welder you're in good shape anyway.  Maybe mind's eye could work well here, enabling insane amounts of card draw when you need it most; And remember this deck packs karn, so they can become 5/5 Attackers too!

BTW does anyone have any tech to board against Slaver. In my opinion this is an awful match-up for TNT. They don't even need thier own welders against you. Maybe janky old Jester's Cap needs to make a come back...

[Gaea]

Are you speaking of the workshop based deck or the counter based deck, cause there are these two version of slaver deck...
Vs any other artifact version I've never had problems, since i can find welders, they have haste and i can create a loto of permanents, vs the counter based slaver i haven't tested, but here i don't see any of those decks, but i think is not a so difficult matchup, i can slow it down, i can destroy his welders ecc...

[NastyNate]

I have had problems with the workshop based Slavery decks. Pillar does nothing to them, Blood Moon does nothing to them, and TNT packs quite a few ways to really screw itself over once a slaver activates. Add to that that they may then activate your welders in order to recur the minslaver, take out your doodes with triskelion and duplicant, and generally make life miserable.

Yes TNT can just bang out juggernauts and win some matches, but that is really all you can hope for. You have to kill them before they get slaver online. Sometimes that can be as early turn 2! I dunno if this is a match-up I really want to face again without some sort of answer. Damping Matrix is a possiblility...but I'm not certain I want to shut down my welders.

[Gaea]

Here in italy when there were a lot of lock stacks decks some TNT sided null rod, that were also useful vs combo to slow them down, i know you're also playing artifacts, but you lose yyour 7 solomoxen and you still have 21 lands, a combo has got just about 12 lands  and also a stacks deck rrun few lands and they need more man then you

[Lord of the Goats]

Here in italy when there were a lot of lock stacks decks some TNT sided null rod, that were also useful vs combo to slow them down, i know you're also playing artifacts, but you lose yyour 7 solomoxen and you still have 21 lands, a combo has got just about 12 lands  and also a stacks deck rrun few lands and they need more man then you

null rod still gets welded so it's not entirely good against slaver. try ground seal. they can't touch it, it shuts their welders down, and it's a good idea to sb your welders out since you really can't win the welder battle because they just activate slaver and out welder you with your own welders. you could very easily devote 15 cards to this matchup.