Updating the B&R List

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

While I agree with the unrestriction of Fork, Geyser, and Stroke, I certainly am against unrestricting Fact, and even to an extent, LoA. Giving control decks 3-4 FoF would, IMO, put control over the edge. Too frequently would control have the ability to abuse mana drain. Fact may still be slow compared to most of the "upper tier" decks, but keep in mind the impact it would have on a realistic environment, where not everyone is playing Dragon, Slavery, or TPS. As for LoA, I'm kinda on the fence about it. I suspect that control decks would be using 2 copies, so it's not so bad, but it would make control mirrors much less interesting, as the first person to see a LoA would basically win. Anyways, just my 2 cents.

-Bob

[jpmeyer]

I'm worried about any card that can produce ridiculous amounts of mana.  That means Mind Over Matter, Dream Halls, and Channel.

[Razor]

Since the proliferation of Stifle (especially in Library decks) it is much harder for any deck to 'solve' an opposing Library problem with Wastelands.

Stifle has made LoA much more of a long-lasting threat.

[atog]

Definatly not unrestrict crop rotation, unless you wan to see storm based academy decks. I don' think doomsday should be unrestricted, it has to many ways of creating degenerate situations. Back when it was released it could kill early on, think about the possibilities today.

[Smmenen]

This is ridiculous.

Our format is terribly under-developed.

Take a look at Extended.  How many people played Fact or Fiction in December Extended?  Almost no one.  Fact or Fiction was simply TOO SLOW.

This is TYPE ONE.  It should be MUCH faster than Extended ever could imagine to be - even with 4 Tinkers.  The bottom line is that Fact or Fiction costs four in a format where you could be dead on turn two.

I do not think such a card warrants restriction.

Steve

[Matt]

[Fact or Fiction] has incredible synergy with Psychatog and Yawgmoth's Will.

It's pretty good with multiple Regrowths, too.

[JACO]

Mox Diamond: More thought is required, and I think WotC would be most skeptical of this over any of the other ideas being tossed around.

Voltaic Key: This is completely frivolous and I've seen many Extended players overestimate it because they've only seen it in a context with unrestricted Monoliths. In T1, even that isn't incredible--a two-card combo to do what Workshop does by itself, woooo, scary. The purported interaction with Metalworker overlooks that a single Metalworker activation is typically enough to cast most of the artifacts available if not all. I guess someone might be worried about Metalworker-Key-Stroke if both were unrezzed, but keeping in mind that three card combos with summoning sickness are horrible, I choose not to be concerned.

Entomb: Back when Dragon was almost a fifth of T8s, I would be hesitant to toss it a bone. At present, I am underwhelmed by the threat of a graveyard tutor. There were sixty Tormod's Crypt in the forty Top 8 decks at large January tournaments. As long as people don't ignore the graveyard, Entomb is no danger.

LoA: At present I'm leaning toward interpreting LoA like I see Intuition and Merchant Scroll: it shouldn't be restricted because no modern deck can really make use of more than a couple copies anyway.

Mind Over Matter and Fact or Fiction: Too dangerous.

Geyser, Stroke, and Rotation have been expressed by others.

I say Smmememmen and JP tagteam the SCG articles. At minimum we've all agreed Fork is safe, and Voltaic Key is nearly without dispute.

I'm worried about any card that can produce ridiculous amounts of mana.  That means Mind Over Matter, Dream Halls, and Channel.

The reason Voltaic Key is restricted is NOT for Grim Monolith, but mainly for its interaction with Candelabra of Tawnos (which is also unrestricted now, by the way). And if you unrestrict Crop Rotation (instant speed tutoring for Academy, at one green mana), that means you can abuse this even more, and generate insane amounts of mana.

There's no reason for LoA to be restricted. As JP said, it's either the Library or Wastelands in most control decks, and I'd go with Wastelands in almost any metagame. It's useless against aggro until you've already won, and in the control mirror, it's going to get Wasted on sight or B2B/Blood Mooned into uselessness anyway, while serving as a colorless mana source until you can keep 7 in hand long enough to use it. Even now, I waste to color-screw control players before I deal with an active Library. Cutting Hulk out of Green >> stopping LoA.

Please tell me you are joking when you say this. Yes, obviously we all attempt to color screw opponents with Wastelands, but NOT before we deal with an active Library. If I'm playing Hulk, and you cut off my green rather than deal with my active Library, I don't give a damn about the green because I'm going to just straight up own you without Berserk by drawing way more cards than you (and I'll most likely draw into another green land, which I can keep in hand until absolutely necessary, considering I'm drawing an extra card every turn for FREE). I'll quote Ray (Razor) here, who I think hit it on the head:

Since the proliferation of Stifle (especially in Library decks) it is much harder for any deck to 'solve' an opposing Library problem with Wastelands.

Stifle has made LoA much more of a long-lasting threat.

If I am allowed to play 4 Libraries, I will be playing Stifle and/or Teferi's Response (which in this deck would be like an Ancestral Recall every time). As I (and Ray) said before, it's not that hard to protect your active Library or even to ramp up to 7 cards to abuse it. It absolutely cannot be unrestricted.

This is ridiculous.

Our format is terribly under-developed.

Take a look at Extended.  How many people played Fact or Fiction in December Extended?  Almost no one.  Fact or Fiction was simply TOO SLOW.

This is TYPE ONE.  It should be MUCH faster than Extended ever could imagine to be - even with 4 Tinkers.  The bottom line is that Fact or Fiction costs four in a format where you could be dead on turn two.

I do not think such a card warrants restriction.

Steve

Steve, while this would seem to make sense when you first think about it, you must take into consideration the card pool available to Extended. The reason it was so fast is because there was no Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares. Sit back and think about it for a minute (or twelve). Angry Hermit, Reanimator/Benzo (before Entomb was banned in Extended), Goblins (basically any variety), Psychatog, and Madness would all be severly weakened (and not nearly as 'fast') if Swords to Plowshares was simply legal, which it is in Type 1. All of those decks, as well as 4-Tinker based decks, would also be severly hurt by the presence of Force of Will. The reason Type 1 is slower, as you put it, is because the card pool (and frequently used staple cards like Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares) naturally makes it slower. The presence of 4 Fact or Fictions in Type 1 is much different (and worse) than it is in Extended (where it is going to be very strong in the next Extended season, where blue-based Psychatog and Madness should do very, very well).

[Dr. Sylvan]

The reason Voltaic Key is restricted is NOT for Grim Monolith, but mainly for its interaction with Candelabra of Tawnos (which is also unrestricted now, by the way). And if you unrestrict Crop Rotation (instant speed tutoring for Academy, at one green mana), that means you can abuse this even more, and generate insane amounts of mana.

I think everyone's in agreement that Rotation should stay restricted as long as Academy is legal. With that parameter, the Candelabra will not reliably have Academy to break, so any use of it would need to untap a land producing more than two mana (one for each activation) in order to yield a gain.

Also, considering Rotation/Academy to be one component... Academy/Candelabra/Key is a three-card combo. There's better things to do in an Academy deck these days than play cards which only help in the presence of a specific restricted card.

[Smmenen]

This is ridiculous.

Our format is terribly under-developed.

Take a look at Extended.  How many people played Fact or Fiction in December Extended?  Almost no one.  Fact or Fiction was simply TOO SLOW.

This is TYPE ONE.  It should be MUCH faster than Extended ever could imagine to be - even with 4 Tinkers.  The bottom line is that Fact or Fiction costs four in a format where you could be dead on turn two.

I do not think such a card warrants restriction.

Steve

Steve, while this would seem to make sense when you first think about it, you must take into consideration the card pool available to Extended. The reason it was so fast is because there was no Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares. Sit back and think about it for a minute (or twelve). Angry Hermit, Reanimator/Benzo (before Entomb was banned in Extended), Goblins (basically any variety), Psychatog, and Madness would all be severly weakened (and not nearly as 'fast') if Swords to Plowshares was simply legal, which it is in Type 1. All of those decks, as well as 4-Tinker based decks, would also be severly hurt by the presence of Force of Will. The reason Type 1 is slower, as you put it, is because the card pool (and frequently used staple cards like Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares) naturally makes it slower. The presence of 4 Fact or Fictions in Type 1 is much different (and worse) than it is in Extended (where it is going to be very strong in the next Extended season, where blue-based Psychatog and Madness should do very, very well).

This paragraph is misleading.  Certainly some of the combo decks would become much worse in a format with Force of Will: Hermit and Benzo come to mind, but certainly not "the Clock" or the Mind's Desire deck.  Those decks could both use Force of Will to be even stronger.   I suspect that even in the new extended Fact or Fiction will continue to prove underpowered.  

One of the principles of Type One is that few cards in type one are viable if they cost more than 3 unless they are Artifact or Blue or Start with Yawgmoth and end with Bargain.  And then, only a few blue cards cost more than 3: Desire and Fact come to mind.  Some people have suggested Gush should be unrestricted - that of course, I would never agree with.  I beleive Gush is much more powerful that Fact.  But Fact should be unrestricted.  Let keeper play 3.  I don't care.  It won't change the matchups I play against Keeper.  

Steve

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not exactly sure 4 FoF would be "better" than AK/Anal/Intuition in HULK, but I would definately run 4 of them anyway. You'd definately be able to do something worthwhile with those 4 extra card slots gained from cutting Intuition and Deep Anal, like adding Wastelands. Eh, i'd say Control is good enough as is. Its not worth the risk of unrestricting FoF and hoping its 4cc is the ONLY thing that can keep it at bay.

[JACO]

This is ridiculous.

Our format is terribly under-developed.

Take a look at Extended.  How many people played Fact or Fiction in December Extended?  Almost no one.  Fact or Fiction was simply TOO SLOW.

This is TYPE ONE.  It should be MUCH faster than Extended ever could imagine to be - even with 4 Tinkers.  The bottom line is that Fact or Fiction costs four in a format where you could be dead on turn two.

I do not think such a card warrants restriction.

Steve

Steve, while this would seem to make sense when you first think about it, you must take into consideration the card pool available to Extended. The reason it was so fast is because there was no Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares. Sit back and think about it for a minute (or twelve). Angry Hermit, Reanimator/Benzo (before Entomb was banned in Extended), Goblins (basically any variety), Psychatog, and Madness would all be severly weakened (and not nearly as 'fast') if Swords to Plowshares was simply legal, which it is in Type 1. All of those decks, as well as 4-Tinker based decks, would also be severly hurt by the presence of Force of Will. The reason Type 1 is slower, as you put it, is because the card pool (and frequently used staple cards like Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares) naturally makes it slower. The presence of 4 Fact or Fictions in Type 1 is much different (and worse) than it is in Extended (where it is going to be very strong in the next Extended season, where blue-based Psychatog and Madness should do very, very well).

This paragraph is misleading.  Certainly some of the combo decks would become much worse in a format with Force of Will: Hermit and Benzo come to mind, but certainly not "the Clock" or the Mind's Desire deck.  Those decks could both use Force of Will to be even stronger.   I suspect that even in the new extended Fact or Fiction will continue to prove underpowered.  

One of the principles of Type One is that few cards in type one are viable if they cost more than 3 unless they are Artifact or Blue or Start with Yawgmoth and end with Bargain.  And then, only a few blue cards cost more than 3: Desire and Fact come to mind.  Some people have suggested Gush should be unrestricted - that of course, I would never agree with.  I beleive Gush is much more powerful that Fact.  But Fact should be unrestricted.  Let keeper play 3.  I don't care.  It won't change the matchups I play against Keeper.  

Steve

Whether 'The Clock' or Mind's Desire-based decks or any other decks would use Force of Will is not the point. If Swords and Force (and a few other spells available in Type 1) where available in Extended, it wouldn't seem so fast. That is the point. The fundamental turn would not be turn 1 or 2, as it was (and as some people said it was in Type 1 before Long.dec was neutered).

Fact or Fiction IS broken. Whether it is Keeper, Psychatog, Oath, or even Workshop-based decks, anything that can abuse it will abuse it. If you don't believe me, look back at the results of Top 8's in Europe here (late in 2001 when it was seeing play and was unrestricted):
http://www.trader-online.de/siegerdecks.htm
Ask Oliver Daems, Daniel Derieth, Benjamin Rott, and Hans Joachim Höh if Fact or Fiction was broken when it was unrestricted. Almost every odd looking blue based deck that isn't combo can use and abuse 4 copies. While it might seem slow in Type 1, it isn't, especially when played in a fully powered deck, or with anything packing Mana Drains. One of my favorite plays, that my regular opponent's always seem to know is coming, is Mana Drain something on their turn, and then dump it into a Fact or Fiction on my first main phase the next turn. Even at 4 mana, it IS a game breaker (although not quite up there with Yawgmoth's Will).

[TheFram]

I don't think that 2001 tourney results are relevant. It is generally accepted that the Vintage development was not really taken seriously until the last year and a half, so MonoU and other 4 FoF decks winning some tournaments in a stagnant meta isn't really that convincing of evidence.

Nonetheless, FoF is very stong. However, on an objective scale I dont know that it is stronger than Scrying (due to scrying's greater flexibility in terms of cycling for 1-2 cards early) or AK-Intuition (due to Cunning Wish tricks and ease of casting with Y. Will).

-TheFram

[RoadTrippin]

A combo deck that can go off by turn 2 with regularity (>50%)
A combo deck that typically goes off with Force of Will/ Duress at the very least backup (or even Defense Grid)
A combo deck that can use Back to Basics to beat any matchup you could call tough
A combo deck that requires no big money cards to build (No need for Bazaar/Squee engine really

Does this remind anybody else of that thing with RandomMiser?  I can't remember the exact quote, but I think it was something like "Dragon could beat unrestricted Academy 100% of the time, that's how good it is.

I don't see how my comment is even comparable. Have you ever played a few test games with the deck? Didn't think so. Also, there are viable budget Dragon lists.

Edited for hostility.[/color]

[Smmenen]

lock' or Mind's Desire-based decks or any other decks would use Force of Will is not the point. If Swords and Force (and a few other spells available in Type 1) where available in Extended, it wouldn't seem so fast. That is the point. The fundamental turn would not be turn 1 or 2, as it was (and as some people said it was in Type 1 before Long.dec was neutered).

Fact or Fiction IS broken. Whether it is Keeper, Psychatog, Oath, or even Workshop-based decks, anything that can abuse it will abuse it. If you don't believe me, look back at the results of Top 8's in Europe here (late in 2001 when it was seeing play and was unrestricted):
http://www.trader-online.de/siegerdecks.htm
Ask Oliver Daems, Daniel Derieth, Benjamin Rott, and Hans Joachim Höh if Fact or Fiction was broken when it was unrestricted. Almost every odd looking blue based deck that isn't combo can use and abuse 4 copies. While it might seem slow in Type 1, it isn't, especially when played in a fully powered deck, or with anything packing Mana Drains. One of my favorite plays, that my regular opponent's always seem to know is coming, is Mana Drain something on their turn, and then dump it into a Fact or Fiction on my first main phase the next turn. Even at 4 mana, it IS a game breaker (although not quite up there with Yawgmoth's Will).

Fact or Fiction is not broken.  Is it really good?  Possibly.  Broken, obv. not.  Yawgmoth's Will is Broken.  Yawgmoth's Bargain is broken.  Mind's Desire and Necropotence are broken.  You cite data as if I have never seen those top 3s or as if I wasn't playing when FoF was unrestricted.  The data you cite is undermined first by the fact that it was 2001.  The format has undergone drastic changes since 2001.  The best line of reasoning for keeping Fact or Fiction restricted, in my opinion, is that control is already strong and giving it more tools is imbalancing.  That doesn't wiegh on the inherent power of Fact or Fiction.  

More than a few people had said to me around Oct/nov of last year that if Gush were unrestricted they didn't think GAT would dominate.  While I think it would, not becuase it would be the best deck, but for other reasons, I think this underscores how far BBS would have to go.  It's incredibly obvious that Fact or Fiction would not save Morphling and obvious to me that Tog would not give up the AK engine in favor of Facts.  There is simply no way that it would.  It would make Tog WAY to vulnerable.  Hell, it doesn't even have ONE fact as it stands.  If Fact is so broken, where is it?  

The only change that would happen is that Fact would go in more pure control decks.  Let it.  Those decks don't abuse Fact like a pseudo-Necro - they use it to draw a few cards and move through their deck.  Aggro contorl sure as hell isn't going to be playing Facts - at least not GAT or Fish.  In other words, Keeper would be the primary beneficiary.  I think this would be a good thing.  There is one more element to this little analysis.  I think this might actually bring more pure control decks back into the format - perhaps even Mono blue/ URphid.   This would all be healthy things.  

TnT was born in the death throws of BBS.  Imagine how much further we've come: Masknaught, GAT, Tog, Tendrils, Workshop Prison, and on and on.  Unrestricting Fact would be fine.

Steve

[MuzzonoAmi]

There's no reason for LoA to be restricted. As JP said, it's either the Library or Wastelands in most control decks, and I'd go with Wastelands in almost any metagame. It's useless against aggro until you've already won, and in the control mirror, it's going to get Wasted on sight or B2B/Blood Mooned into uselessness anyway, while serving as a colorless mana source until you can keep 7 in hand long enough to use it. Even now, I waste to color-screw control players before I deal with an active Library. Cutting Hulk out of Green >> stopping LoA.

Please tell me you are joking when you say this. Yes, obviously we all attempt to color screw opponents with Wastelands, but NOT before we deal with an active Library. If I'm playing Hulk, and you cut off my green rather than deal with my active Library, I don't give a damn about the green because I'm going to just straight up own you without Berserk by drawing way more cards than you (and I'll most likely draw into another green land, which I can keep in hand until absolutely necessary, considering I'm drawing an extra card every turn for FREE). I'll quote Ray (Razor) here, who I think hit it on the head:

Since the proliferation of Stifle (especially in Library decks) it is much harder for any deck to 'solve' an opposing Library problem with Wastelands.

Stifle has made LoA much more of a long-lasting threat.

If I am allowed to play 4 Libraries, I will be playing Stifle and/or Teferi's Response (which in this deck would be like an Ancestral Recall every time). As I (and Ray) said before, it's not that hard to protect your active Library or even to ramp up to 7 cards to abuse it. It absolutely cannot be unrestricted.

If you're running 4 Libraries, at least 2 Stifles and 1 Teferi's Response, even if you board the Response as a Wish target, then good lock getting to that Green (or Black) source before you're dead.

Think about it: to make room for a sceond library, you'll probably cut a Trop. For a third, I'm guessing a Sea is out. So even running 3 Libraries, you're down to just 3 sources of Black and Green, not including the 2 Moxen. While you're busy keeping 7 in your hand to keep those libraries active, I'll be dropping Pillars, Survivals, Blood Moons, and Juggernauts so at that point, I just can't see how holding back to draw is going to help you.

[jpmeyer]

The reason that aggro can afford to Waste the blue sources is because now the control deck has very, very few blue sources.  When I was doing my test hands a single Wasteland would kill almost every single draw.  There would be no way for the control deck to draw another land within another turn.

When you can't Mana Drain on turn 2 reliably, it's just too easy for the deck to scoop to draws like turn 1 Survival (which gets Forced,) turn 2 Blood Moon which can't get Drained.

[cssamerican]

These are the cards that I think are playable in multiples that should be unrestricted.

Fork: I still can't figure out why this is even on the list. Unrestrict it, it is a playable card in mon-red that can and will get played in multiples without distorting the enviroment at all.

Fact or Fiction: Hulk will still use the Intuition/AK engine; however, GAT would run FoF. This would make GAT better than it is now but still much weaker than 4 Gush GAT. Look at it like this Gush gives a Tog +6.5/+6.5 FoF gives a Tog in most cases +6/+6. That is about even, but Gush takes no mana, FoF takes four mana. It was easy for 4 Gush GAT to Gush twice in a turn; do you realize how hard it would be FoF twice in a single turn? While FoF is good, it is not Gush. Some people are worried about Keeper running it and all I can say is I couldn't care less about Keeper running this card. As far a BBS coming back, I doubt it severely. But if it did it would not be the powerhouse it once was, The meta is a lot more competitive now than what it was back then.

Library of Alexandria: You can't run four of them and Strips in modern day control decks. It is slow as mollasses in today's metagame, and the more of them you have in play the less spells that can be casted by what they give you. Quit living in the past, it is no where near as strong in multiples as a lot of you think.

Stoke/Geyser: A kill mechanism that can really only work with infinite mana engines. First off, if you have infinite mana does it really matter what you have for a kill? Secondly if you have that infinite mana, why would you want to use a Misdirectable kill? Thirdly, if you're using it as your own draw engine you are an idiot for using an inefficient and misdirectable draw engine. So I have to ask why is this still restricted?

Cards that would require a bit of testing, that on the surface look playable but not broken.

Mox Diamond: Only good in conjuction with Land Tax, in fact, it has anti-combo synergy.
Entomb: This one scares me a little, but it was never broken in Type 1 before it got restricted. That is what I hate about preemptively restricting cards, you never really know.(And yes I know it was restricted because of Type 1.5, but thats another topic)

[Ifflejink]

Fork doesn't deserve to be restricted anymore. Isochron Scepter blows it out of the water. Also, Doomsday is definitely worthy of unrestriction. It could bring about interesting combo decks, and make the metagame more interesting. Library should not be unrestricted under any circumstances. It generates insane card advantage, and four would ruin the format, just like Long did before the restrictions. Crop Rotation I'm a little shaky about. It's not that overpowered now, but it could easily be broken. Mind Over Matter can generate unreal amounts of mana, Academy or no Academy.

[Toad]

Restrict Mishra's Workshop, Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere.



Fact or Fiction, Regrowth, Mox Diamond, Stroke of Genius, Voltaic Key, Fork Braingeyser and Library of Alexandria are fair cards for unrestriction.

[Smmenen]

Fact or Fiction: Hulk will still use the Intuition/AK engine; however, GAT would run FoF. This would make GAT better than it is now but still much weaker than 4 Gush GAT. Look at it like this Gush gives a Tog +6.5/+6.5 FoF gives a Tog in most cases +6/+6. That is about even, but Gush takes no mana, FoF takes four mana. It was easy for 4 Gush GAT to Gush twice in a turn; do you realize how hard it would be FoF twice in a single turn? While FoF is good, it is not Gush. Some people are worried about Keeper running it and all I can say is I couldn't care less about Keeper running this card. As far a BBS coming back, I doubt it severely. But if it did it would not be the powerhouse it once was, The meta is a lot more competitive now than what it was back then.

What makes you think GAT will run Fact - a more mana light deck than Tog, if Tog doesn't even run one?  

There are no cards in GAT that cost 4, and I cannot see this card being used at all.

Steve

[Ric_Flair]

Wow!  As usual discussion of the B&R List has garnered a huge number of posts.  

Before I talk about specifics, I think it warrants mention two overarching concepts: 1) The Policy behind restrictions and 2) The evolution of the metagame.

First, what is or should be the policy behind the B&R List? Surely, its primary function is to limit broken decks by eliminating or reducing the number of broken cards available to a given deck.  But is there a secondary function, namely the control of the metagame.  That is, the list does hurt certain decks, but it also promotes others.  Creature decks, for example, have always been favorites of Wizards (especially in Vintage).  Thus there has been a push to unrestrict certain creature helpers and ignore others.  Berserk was undoubtedly unrestricted to help creature decks.  Furthermore, Survival of the Fittest, one of the best unrestricted cards in the game, remains far from discussion because of the overt attempts to strengthen aggro and creature decks.  I think that Survival is just slightly too weak to deserve restriction, but a permanent Tutor that helps Madness and Welder has to be seen for what it is--one hell of a powerful card.  So in addition to hindering certain decks, the list helps others.  Is this a good thing?  I say yes, as of right now, but taken to an extreme, like the attempt to promote Black in Torment, this policy could be ruinous.  Another policy consideration: budget decks.  Should or does list promote budget decks as being competitive.  In other words should or does the list favor unrestricting or keeping unrestricted cards that are good and cheap (i.e. Fact or Fiction)?  The answers to these questions largely determine where you come down on the debate.  

If budget should be a concern then FoF, Stroke, Fork, Entomb, and Doomsday should be unrestricted.  Greater access to good cards will help budget and non-budget decks equally, but it will tend to lower the cost of entry as a whole.  If budget is not a concern then cards like Regrowth (cheap, but used to Regrow expensive cards) and Library could be unrestricted.  

Also, what decks are out there that these newly unrestricted cards could go into?  I think that FoF would help the lagging power of Mono U.  I think that the presence of Drain and FoF as a sink would bolster a number of control decks.  Similar things can be said for Entomb and Fork.  If there are decks out there waiting for these cards that would not put such decks over the top these cards should at least be given a look.  Saying that they are theoretically too powerful is an empty statement in a format where LED can be broken in half.  Possible broken power is a description of nearly every good card in Vintage.

That all said, I think that it is clear that both Library AND FoF cannot be unrestricted.  The ability to get back to 7 cards with FoF, a one sided effect, unlike the Draw 7s, is too great.  So as between FoF and Library as an aid to control, I would prefer FoF because it is cheaper and it is easier to thwart.  I also think that Library is quite powerful on its own.  Only the huge amount of non-basic hate right now and the comparable power of two other busted lands masks how powerful this card really is.  Unrestricting Library, would, I am afraid set off an arms race effect in which the format would radically shift to three major decks all based around busted lands:  Library decks, Bazaar decks, and Workshop decks.  Diversity is this format's strength.  Let's keep it that way.  Adding Library would only warp a very solid existing metagame that we have today.

Unrestrict:

Fork
Stroke/Geyser
Doomsday
Mox Diamond
Fact or Fiction
Entomb

Weird Suggestion:

Unrestrict FoF, Library, Stroke, Geyser, Fork, Doomsday, Entomb, Mox Diamond, AND Black Vise.  Then we would have a fight.  Library needs to be offset by something.

[BreathWeapon]

Black Vise, now there is an idea. Budget could use a bomb back and the card isn't that broke now that Chalice has owned Sligh into its grave. Mmm, Standstill and Black Vise ... druel.

[jpmeyer]

You do realize that Black Vise prevents you from playing decks without Moxes, right?

[Ric_Flair]

Yeah, I understand the import of adding Vise into the mix.  I remember the days of control decks playing 4 Baubles and 4 Sextants to get out Vise range quickly.  

I merely offered the suggestion as a way to beef up aggro in a way that is proportional to the uptick in power that control would receive from the unrestriction of Library.

I see Library and Vise as sort of Corsican Twins.  Both are colorless.  Both can go into any deck of the given style.  Both provide enormous early game swings.  Both are cheap to cast or play.  Both can be played on the first turn.  And most important of all, Vise balances out Library.  

I understand the adding Moxen would be required for Control decks, but I think aggro can get by just fine without them even with Vise in the format.  My only concern would be that like all good aggro colorless cards (see Workshop) Prison artifact decks would co-opt Black Vise.  

Still I think that unrestricting Library would have such an impact that there would have to be a similar unrestriction of an aggro card to keep aggro in the game at all.  I guess my point is that unrestricting Library would be too much of a hassle and would unbalance what is, in my opinion, an incredibly well balanced metagame.  The Library/Vise move might just speed up this balanced metagame, but it might not.  Anyway, do we really want an even faster metagame?

Also, as someone IMed me and said, MoMa is probably still broken.  One in Keeper with a Library lets you draw your whole deck at 7 cards.  For Free.  That is kinda scary.  I know it takes two restricted cards and 5 mana right now, but if these unrestrictions took place the Library MoMa draw your deck play wouldn't be impossible.

[BreathWeapon]

I wouldn't go that far, but i'd agree it would definately cause people to run Artifact Removal MD. Fish would definately take a hit along with Landstill, but most Budget Aggro like Sligh, Stompy, Suicide, WW drop their hands real quick anyway. With all of the concentrated hate in the environment towards Artifacts right now, how bad could Vise be? (Famous Last Words)

[Toad]

I faced a Sligh deck while playing Stacker in Belgium 2 monthes ago. Game 1 (playing) I went first turn Mishra's Workshop, Black Vise, Chalice of the Void for 1, and the Black Vise dealt him 12 damage. 4 Black Vise is insane in a deck that can also pack Chalice of the Void, Sphere of Resistance and Tangle Wire (you can view that as a more Aggroish Welder MUD or a more Controlish Stacker). Which deck can race a nasty double Vise opening?

[cssamerican]

Fact or Fiction: Hulk will still use the Intuition/AK engine; however, GAT would run FoF. This would make GAT better than it is now but still much weaker than 4 Gush GAT. Look at it like this Gush gives a Tog +6.5/+6.5 FoF gives a Tog in most cases +6/+6. That is about even, but Gush takes no mana, FoF takes four mana. It was easy for 4 Gush GAT to Gush twice in a turn; do you realize how hard it would be FoF twice in a single turn? While FoF is good, it is not Gush. Some people are worried about Keeper running it and all I can say is I couldn't care less about Keeper running this card. As far a BBS coming back, I doubt it severely. But if it did it would not be the powerhouse it once was, The meta is a lot more competitive now than what it was back then.

What makes you think GAT will run Fact - a more mana light deck than Tog, if Tog doesn't even run one?  

There are no cards in GAT that cost 4, and I cannot see this card being used at all.

Steve

I stated that because it is the only deck out there that could possibly break the card, and I used it as an example. I will remind you that the only reason people are disccusing cutting Mana Drain for Counterspell is that there are not enough places do dump the mana. FoF would change this. However, even with this change (This example was based on the assumption that FoF would work in GAT) I can not see it being overly broken. Sorry if I came off as "FoF will be in every Tog deck", I meant it as the only place where it might have a chance of being broken is in a Tog deck, and even then it is no where near as good a Gush.

Toad: Would you have won with a CotV for 1 and a Sphere? I mean that was a lost cause for the Sligh player when you played the CotV, Black Vise was just a means to the end.

Thinking out loud:
I bet half of the cards on the restricted list no longer need to be restricted, and it is our own fears that put them there. For example Black Vise, everyone says "Whooo! Way too powerful to unrestrict!” But how is a turn one Black Vise any more powerful than a turn 1 Metalworker, Smokestack, Juggernaught, Illusionary Mask, Survival of the Fittest, Bazaar of Baghdad, or any other turn one bomb in Vintage. They all say if you can't remove me soon you will lose. It doesn't kill you in one turn, and it is not going to be able to be used in conjunction with anything to get regular turn 2 wins. I do not know if people realize this or not, but this is the only card on the B&R list that does any type of damage to your opponent, does this mean the most powerful damage spell in all of Type 1 is Black Vise? Does this mean it is more powerful than Tendrils of Agony, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Juggernaught, and a Berserked Tog? I not saying that we should unrestrict half the list, but I am saying maybe we should forget the past and reevaluate what is on the B&R list.

[Rico Suave]

You do realize that Black Vise prevents you from playing decks without Moxes, right?

Doesn't Fact or Fiction do the same thing?

[Dr. Sylvan]

I bet half of the cards on the restricted list no longer need to be restricted, and it is our own fears that put them there. For example Black Vise, everyone says "Whooo! Way too powerful to unrestrict!? But how is a turn one Black Vise any more powerful than a turn 1 Metalworker, Smokestack, Juggernaught, Illusionary Mask, Survival of the Fittest, Bazaar of Baghdad, or any other turn one bomb in Vintage. They all say if you can't remove me soon you will lose. It doesn't kill you in one turn, and it is not going to be able to be used in conjunction with anything to get regular turn 2 wins. I do not know if people realize this or not, but this is the only card on the B&R list that does any type of damage to your opponent, does this mean the most powerful damage spell in all of Type 1 is Black Vise? Does this mean it is more powerful than Tendrils of Agony, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Juggernaught, and a Berserked Tog? I not saying that we should unrestrict half the list, but I am saying maybe we should forget the past and reevaluate what is on the B&R list.

Challenge accepted. :) Reevaluation by category:

Never in one bajillion years unrestrict: Balance, Black Lotus, Dream Halls, Memory Jar, Mind's Desire, Necropotence, Tinker, Tolarian Academy, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Yawgmoth's Will

Just too good to be fair in multiples: Ancestral Recall, Black Vise, Gush, Mind Twist, Strip Mine, Time Spiral, Time Walk, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall

Tutors that are too good in multiples: Burning Wish, Crop Rotation, Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor

Dangerous Acceleration: Channel, Chrome Mox, Fastbond, Frantic Search, Grim Monolith, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mind Over Matter, Mox Emerald, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Sapphire, Sol Ring

----------DO NOT CONSIDER UNRESTRICTION ABOVE THIS LINE---------

Caution Warranted: Fact or Fiction, Library of Alexandria, Mox Diamond

Mostly Harmless: Braingeyser, Doomsday, Earthcraft, Entomb, Fork, Regrowth, Stroke of Genius, Voltaic Key

Black Vise is not a safe card for a world which wishes control to prosper, any more than it would be permissible to unrestrict Strip Mine.

[riggy]

Personally, I'd love to see Fork unrestricted. Fork on a stick just sounds like so much fun.

And unrestricting FoF means getting to see the look on your opponent's face when you cast it not once, but four times (potentially).