Updating the B&R List

[Smmenen]

This is the first time I have done a systematic analysis of the Restricted list, so this will be interesting.

GROUP A: The Most Broken, and I mean BA-ROKEN, Cards in Type One that will never be unresricted


Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Lion?s Eye Diamond
Mind's Desire
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Memory Jar
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Those 23 cards - with the exception maybe of Time Walk, are all problem cards.  They are cards which are at the core of Vintage and what make it so unbalancing.  If you banned those cards, this game would be RADICALLY different and almost impossible to truly "break."  A substantial
portion of the cards in Group A are the cause of the necessity of restriction the cards in Group B:

(Btw, I would ironically add Dark Ritual and Mishra's Workshop to Group A - if that says anything about the power level of Group A - although I don't want either card restricted).  

Group B, cards that have to be restricted becuase of Group A

subgroup 1: The Tutors

Burning Wish
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Doomsday
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor

Spoils may soon join this rank.

Subgroup 2: The borderline Mana Accellerants

Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Channel
Grim Monolith
Lotus Petal
Fastbond
Frantic Search (??)
Voltaic Key (??) - if some of hte cards in Group A were unrestricted this card would be much more broken.

Some cards in this subgroup are better than others.  If not for the draw 7s and other cards on the restricted list, Fastbond would be less broken, although it arguably belongs in group A - and I would agree with that to a great degree.  Of the rest of the group, I think Lotus Petal is probalby the strongest - which is highly ironic.  Channel has great potential in a deck like Belcher and with Elvish Spirit Guides around.  I think Elvish Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual are probably both stronger than Mox Diamond an Grim Monolith - and ironically, Dark Ritual is much stronger than any of the cards in this subgroup with perhaps the exception of Fastbond.

Group C: Cards which are Format Warping or Clearly Strong, but not as Broken as the cards in Group A - but becuase of how they function, they are unrestrictable - simply becuase they are too sick in multiples

Black Vise
Strip Mine
Library of Alexandria (??)

Group D: Engines - Cards which Fuel Dominant Decks
Dream Halls
Gush
PERHAPS Fact or Fiction, but I find that HIGHLY spurrious
Mind Over Matter (I find this one doubtful too).


The cards that remain I'd like to discuss individually.

Group E - The Unrestrictables

Braingeyser - Slow and Unweildy.  Clearly a good candidate for unrestriction

Earthcraft
Restricted for 1.5

Entomb
I'm not entirely sure about this one.  I'm on the side of unrestriction though.

Fact or Fiction
I have spoken at length about this card elsewhere.

Fork
OMG I have written SO Much about why this should be unrestricted beginning with posts on BDOMINIA years ago along with Berserk and Hurkyl's Recall.  

Mind Twist  
Now here is a REALLY good card to debate the merits of.  I'd like to see this unrestricted.  I think it COULD be a problem.  But it would only be becuase people are playing with lots of accelleration in what is basically a Mind twist deck.  I don't think such a deck concept would be viable.  Duress is, on the whole, a functionally superior card.  What do you think of that, eh?

Regrowth
I think this has to stay simply becuase the potential for abuse is too strong.  With green getting stronger by the moment, this card is too undercosted to allow unrestriction.

Stroke of Genius
This card is awful.  I laught that it is restricted.

Time Spiral
This card is SOOO Much worse than Diminishing Returns there are not words to describe it.

To be honest, until I did this review, I didn't realize how incongruous the restricted list is with reality.  The list has so many cards on it that don't even approach the power level of other unrestricted cards.  I honestly would put Diminishing Returns and Dark Ritual in category A - although a restricted Dark Ritual loses much of its potency.

Steve

[Toad]

Restrict Steven Mennendian.

[Vegeta2711]

You people are insane to suggest the unrestriction of Black Vise. I don't know how many of you were around for the Vise age, but it sucked ass.

Past that let me just say, if you unrestrict Vise your dooming yourselves.

Nowadays.
1st Turn: Workshop, Mox, Double Black Vise, Sphere of Resistance.

That's 6 damage before you get a turn and at most your dropping 2 cards on your turn thanks to Sphere, so next turn you'll still take 4. That's 10 damage by turn 2 and is entirely ridiculous. God forbid you ever get a 3 Vise hand and your opponent didn't have a FoW.

Now on your 2nd turn you add a Juggernaut, Pillar or ANOTHER Sphere. Maybe throw a cute little wasteland at their one land.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Restrict Steven Mennendian.

That won't do any good; his name's Stephen Menendian!

I must say that in the past I have thought Mind Twist might be a candidate, but I think it would increase the swinginess of control matchups to an unhealthy degree. The ability to directly convert a Mox-filled opening into a crushing blow is too dangerous. I would put this at least a step beyond Fact or Fiction in "safety of unrestriction". That said, I'm surprised at the caution about Voltaic Key, and not just from Steve. I think I've already explained that anything using Candelabra of Tawnos is a three-card combo generating relatively mundane mana supplies compared to other mana engines, and Metalworker-Key-Stroke is also three cards, with summoning sickness no less. What cards do people find to be risky in connection with Voltaic Key?

[Raph Caron]

Smmenen :

I agree with most of your analysis, for once.

(Btw, I would ironically add Dark Ritual and Mishra's Workshop to Group A - if that says anything about the power level of Group A - although I don't want either card restricted).

I thought about the same thing (except for the last part, obviously). And Mana Drain belongs to Group B2 (borderline accelerant).

Fact or Fiction can be unrestricted safely if Mana Drain is restricted.

[Smmenen]

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings....but perhaps its time we took a closer look at Mana Drain?  A discussion about Mana Drian has SO many implications and strikes to the very core of what the restricted list is about.

One of the biggest problems we have when we discuss the restricted list is that the restricted list means different things to different people - that is it has different critierion which nobody seems to agree on.  The lack of explicit criteria from the DCI means that we can only make inferences based upon what they have said in the past - and it is a mish-mash of policy sprinkled with concerns over format distortion/dominance.  

Mana Drain may have a stranglehold on this format, but even if we can clearly document that this is the case, there are problems in proposing its restriction.  First, there is a layer of absolutely dedicated control players who privately freak out at the very suggestion.  Seconed, there is the larger normative question that often goes unasnwerd: Do we WANT control to dominat this format?  If there has to be a deck that dominates, is it acceptable so long as that deck is control?  No body likes it when Prison or Combo runs rampant, but people seriously don't seem to mind that much if blue is the color of choice.  That is a question that I can't answer using logical reasoning.  It depends on what people think is healthy.  I foresee a long period in which Tog and other aggro control decks continue to run rampant.  I think Workshop and Bazaar are on the decline - and not just becuase of terrible 5 proxy rules, but becuase they are actually weakening in power relative to other decks in the format.  I don't know how it happened, but somewhere between now and last Gencon, GroAtog suddenly re-emerged on the East coast, and instead of dismissing it, I can finally understand WHY it has done so.  Its becuase the type one waters are SO dense in control at the moment - in part becuase of the 5 proxy rule, and in part becuase people honeslty like control.

We shall see.

Steve

[jpmeyer]

You do realize that Black Vise prevents you from playing decks without Moxes, right?

Doesn't Fact or Fiction do the same thing?

I don't get it.  Black Vise makes it so that to compete, every deck needs to run big sets of artifact acceleration so that it can get out from under it quickly.  I don't see how FoF forces opposing decks to do that or die.

Regrowth
I think this has to stay simply becuase the potential for abuse is too strong. With green getting stronger by the moment, this card is too undercosted to allow unrestriction.

In that case, why not play Revive?

[TutoreIlluminato]

Fact or Fiction is really too strong to be restricted: with 4 of them every control deck (Hulk, Keeper, Ur-phid or nophid...)will use 7 SoLoMoxen, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Tolarian Academy and 4 Mana Drain to cast it costantly on turn 2.

Possible cards to be unrestricted: Braingeyser and Stroke because they're really slow and maybe Doomsday

[MuzzonoAmi]

Steve - Interesting points on Drain, but I think that the results wouldn't be very good for the format should it get the axe. It would make control decks slower than they already are, meaning that even White Weenie would be half-viable, and LD might become more prevelant because it would be more difficult to fight the mana war against them. Despite my strong support of budget decks and my requests for budget deckbuilders to take their actions seriously, I don't think that having strong control decks hinders that on any great level. Drainless control would have a much harder time dropping bombs like Humility and Mind Twist against aggro.

I don't share the opinion that LoA is too strong in multiples. It puts serious strain on the manabase of almost any control deck that runs it, since they're all in 3 or more colors already. Landstill is in 2, but it's so reliant on it's lands already I'm not sure if it could support another colorless source. Mono-U and Parfait are exceptions to this (and most Parfait builds splash black and/or red) but neither has posted strong results since the metagame started evolving. I'm almost hesitant to say that Mono-U could be made better than teir-2 even with FoF AND LoA unrestricted. Back to Basics is pretty much it's only hope against other control decks, and aggro-control, Prison, and pure aggro decks should easily beat it.

[Raph Caron]

Steve - Interesting points on Drain, but I think that the results wouldn't be very good for the format should it get the axe. It would make control decks slower than they already are, meaning that even White Weenie would be half-viable, and LD might become more prevelant because it would be more difficult to fight the mana war against them. Despite my strong support of budget decks and my requests for budget deckbuilders to take their actions seriously, I don't think that having strong control decks hinders that on any great level. Drainless control would have a much harder time dropping bombs like Humility and Mind Twist against aggro.

You make it sound like having WW and LD decks in the format would be bad.  :lol:

People need to keep in mind that having a card restricted still allows you to play one copy of it. Black would still have 1 Dark Ritual, Artifact would still have 1 Workshop and control would still have that Mana Drain. And I think they would all be viable. The only result is that they become weaker, making more decks competitive.

jpmeyer :

I would love to see Regrowth unrestricted, but then I think about Wastelands and I frown.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Re: Mana Drain (hereafter designated "MD"): First, I think there is a case to be made that MD has less of a stranglehold now than in almost any prior period. The proliferation of Xantid Swarm, first of all, provides an easy answer to anyone willing to use green. In fact, my understanding of Parfait is that it also uses Orim's Chant and Abeyance in a similar way, working around the tempo gains of countermagic. The Control Enchantress thread now open includes use of both Swarm and Chant as effective control-hosers. The fact that only five Swarms and two Chants showed up in January next to sixty MD's says to me that either people don't feel the need to avoid MD, or that they don't mind its hazards.

Aggro is prospering at the moment; Madness is everywhere, including with it a host of juicy MD targets, and yet it succeeds. Workshop aggro similarly appears to shrug off the problem, though it devotes slots to mana disruption unlike some Madness counterparts. So aggro as an archetype is succeeding, even if it isn't the conventional Jackal Pups and Kird Apes of 'olde tyme songe'. Even if aggro were facing less success, I think Swords to Plowshares and Balance (plus Fire/Ice and Deed) would easily be as major as MD in determining that failure. If the problem is that nonblue control isn't succeeding (which I would agree is unfortunately the case), then I think the superior solution is to keep combo in check so that the natural advantages of enchantment-centric decks can unveil themselves.

In short, I think of MD simply as an advantage for blue that other colors don't have enough tools to overwhelm at this juncture, but Type 1 B&R policy is not supposed to fix the pro-blue design imbalance of the game.

[Smmenen]

In short, I think of MD simply as an advantage for blue that other colors don't have enough tools to overwhelm at this juncture, but Type 1 B&R policy is not supposed to fix the pro-blue design imbalance of the game.

That's what I was alluding to.  There is nothing to suggest that you are right or wrong.  Strictly speaking, if blue is dominant or distortive, shouldn't it be treated the same as everything else?  Otherwise you are bringing in a subjective element.

Steve

[leviat]

I find it interesting that with all the talk of the what should be unrestricted, noone has brought up [card]Enlightened Tutor[/card] for unrestriction. I understand that this card can get Black Lotus, but does that really make this card restriction worthy? Besides Black Lotus, what would this card be abused for? And you really can't forget the fact that this is card disadvantage. On top of that, [card]Argivian Find[/card] has never really been seen as a problem which is basically the Yang to the tutor's Yin.

I think it's time we give white a little boost and unrestrict Enlightened Tutor.

[Ric_Flair]

Restrict Steven Mennendian.

I am not sure, but I think that is up to his parents, not the DCI, though their power is sinister in how far it reaches.

Let's suppose for a second that we have no attachment to control decks, no attachment to blue, and no attachment to expensive cards that we already own.  Let's also assume that the format, while EVENTUALLY self correcting, should be intercepted when things get WAY out of hand.  That is to acknowledge that with more than 6000 cards available and the best decks having performance limitations due to playskill, eventually the all but the most broken decks can be metagamed into submission.  This is a long process and we should not have to suffer through a crap metagame for ages for this to occur.  This is the premise of what follows.

Mana Drain

First, I understand that in certain circles Mana Drain is part and parcel with Vintage itself.  It is an iconic card that plays a crucial role in many iconic decks.  It is likely to be the first $100 uncommon (I have a bet with Jeff on this very issue).  Mana Drain also has many of the qualities that got Counterspell removed from 8th.  It puts enormous pressure on expensive cards.  They have to be really, really good to work and be worthwhile, knowing that the threat of a Drain is lurking around the corner.  So it seems suspect, at least initially.

However examining the format more closely reveals that Mana Drain, while one of the usual suspects for the small card pool is not the only offender.  After Venice, Wizards liked the giant creatures environment a lot.  They also had a disdain for the way that Counterspell pinned down the format.  But in Standard Counterspell was so much cheaper than other format shaping cards (the next closest being Wrath of God) that it was clearly the biggest problem.  Not so in Vintage.  STP, as much as Mana Drain, keeps good creatures down.  Duress serves much the same function for spells.  So getting rid of Mana Drain would not have the same effect as eliminating Counterspell did in Constructed.  Even that experiment has been a diaster as Standard is the worst its ever been right now thanks to quick and "un Mana Leak-able" Broodstars.  All of the "real" fatties, ie not Broodstar and Myr Enforcer, are all but gone, with Exalted Angel making an occassional guest appearance.  In Vintage, STP and Duress are arguably even more of a problem than Mana Drain.

This leads to the second reason why Mana Drain is not a problem: it is not a proactive card.  Mana Drain, like all counterspells, has an inherent weakness in that it requires action on the part of an opponent to be successful and it has to be in hand and castable in a narrow window of time.  STP and Duress, on the other hand, are much less time dependant.  And Duress is entirely proactive.  

So while good, in fact great, ridding the format of Mana Drain does nothing to "open" up the format.  Duress, STP, Force, and other efficient spells will keep the lid on high casting cost cards.  Furthermore, it would not hurt control, as all of the other spells listed above would still be useful. Finally, proof that Drain is not a huge problem:  Many decks, including the GAT deck that placed 2nd in the second mos t recent Waterbury, eschew Drains in favor of Counterspell.  Without the mana sinks Drain is sometimes worse.  There is at least an issue about using Drain and as such, it does not seem to me to be a problem.  

Mind Twist

I have played since before the banned and restricted list was in place.  I remember a time in which Mind Twist was allowed in 4 ofs (or more) and it was not fun.  Multiple Mind Twists are just not a good idea.  One of the reasons we don't see this is because so often Mind Twist does not resolve or effectively does not resolve.  I would be willing to bet that if more people were hit regularly by this card there would be NO discussion of its unrestriction.  Having to constantly defend against Mind Twist after Mind Twist after Mind Twist after Mind Twist would effectively require every deck to run Force of Will or some anti-discard tech.  The fact that we only have one Twist to face each game, barring Will, means that stopping it once allows us to never worry about it again.  Without this confidence play would forever be about avoiding getting Twisted.  Unrestricting Mind Twist is incredibly dangerous.  Remember that this card was BANNED not to long ago and was, as far as I remember, the only card banned for power level.  Having seen the dangerousness of 4 Twist decks, I can say with confidence NO ONE wants to play in an environment like that.  NO ONE.

Fact or Fiction, Braingeyser, Stroke of Genius

I think that the game has come far enough since BBS to allow FoF back into the format.  It will help decks in need of help and it would not spawn a moster, which Black Vise potentially good.  Fact or Fiction, while good, is no better than Intuition, which sets up AK, or the Blue/Black tutor package which essentially unrestricts Ancestral.  In short, the format has more than enough good draw, such that adding FoF would not be distortive.  The same thing can be said with Stroke and Geyser.  AK/Intuition and Tutor Package/Ancestral are both such efficient engines that these clunky draw cards can't possibly add more to the format.  Its like the logjam around burn spells.  With Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Fire/Ice, and Incinerate in the format adding less powerful burn will do little to change burn decks.  The format is so saturated with efficient draw that we need not worry about any accumulative effect that these clunkers could possible create.

Fork

See reasoning for the blue mass draw effects.  It is either a bad counterspell or a bad lightning bolt.  Both are fine and even as an unrestricted spell Fork is likely to not see much action.

Library of Alexandria

See my post above.  This card is just begging to be slipped into control decks.  It would give them a performance boost unlike the clunky blue draw.  It would also make it necessary to run Wastes or Strips.  Not healthy.

Finally, a comment on the current metagame.  I think the biggest strain on the metagame is no one card or even the B&R list itself, but the 5 card proxy rule.  By limiting the number of proxies per deck to 5, the format becomes almost necessarily one of control decks.  Decks like TNT, w/MUD, Stax, and Madness run at least the Jewelry, if not all the Power, in addition to Bazaar or Workshop, both of which cost a lot of money.   This means that for the average person these top flight decks are out of reach and are unplayable in a tournament.  I think that this limits the format to a great degree.  Why built and tweak TNT if you can never play it in a format for lack of cards?  I know a good number of big time players that could not put together a proxy free version of Madness or Stax.  These are incredibly costly decks.  As such we default to subpar aggro, aggro control, or control decks few of which have as many $100+ cards.  I think that the following rule would greatly expand the diversity of the format.  

New Proxy Rule:

You may proxy any of the following in the same deck:

1 of each of the SoloMoxen
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Timetwister
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Mana Drain (maybe not, it is not a $100 card, yet)

This basically means that anyone can play any deck.  As we have seen the 5 proxy rule, instead of hurting dealers and the format, saved Vintage.  We need to take the next step and let everyone play what they want.  We need not, however, take the logical extreme and have all proxy decks.  If you don't have enough of a commitment to the format to acquire dual lands (roughly the same price per card as the top tier Standard cards) then you should not play.  I think this is a workable compromise between the two extremes.

[Raph Caron]

In my book, fast mana is worst for the game than card drawing and card advantage. By unrestricting E. Tutor, you're speeding up the game, something I tend to see as bad. The same goes for Mana Drain.

[Smmenen]

Tony, I agree with your conclusion about the proxy rule.  However, Mana Drain IS used for mana.  Tog is voraciously mana hungry and counters spells just for the tempo boost and the mana the following turn to do broken things with.  

Your assessment of Mind Twist has nothing to do with format Distortion/Dominance - it seems based on annoyance more than anything else.  

I think Fact and Mind Twist would only see play in slow blue based control decks.  Fine.  Mind twist would not be used in an uber cool Mindtwist.dec deck becuase it is underpowered.  Duress is more functionall for the VAST  majority of decks.  Mind Twist could even be a liability against Aggro-Control which runs Misdirection.  And this assumes that Chalices, Trinispheres, or even Mask-naught are not already on the table when Mind Twist is case.  

I do not think that Regrowth or Enlightened Tutor are unrestrictable.  E. Tutor can find Black Lotus and Lion's Eye Diamond to set up for turn two kills without too much difficultly.

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

Leviat: Enlightened Tutor cannot be unrestricted while cards like Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence are legal. ET is already a component of TPS decks for those cards, and allowing combo to fetch a trump card that easily is never going to be fair. It's a couple of steps less powerful than Consultation, but those steps aren't enough to justify the risk of unrestriction, even if it would be so juicy-sweet for W-based control.

[Raph Caron]

So while good, in fact great, ridding the format of Mana Drain does nothing to "open" up the format. Duress, STP, Force, and other efficient spells will keep the lid on high casting cost cards.

Then why shouldn't it be restricted? Restricting to one copy the super counterspell makes the decks running 4 strictly worst. Thus, the other decks get automatically better.

For example, playing fatties is not a good strategy but it DOES get better, no matter how little, if Mana Drain is restricted.

[Ric_Flair]

I agree. That's why I think we can safely restrict it. Restricting to one copy the super counterspell makes the decks running 4 strictly worst. Thus, the other decks get automatically better.

That second sentence is very confusingly worded.  However, I would tend toward not restricting cards.  If restricting Mana Drain has no effect on the format, then why restrict it?  If removing a card does nothing to the format then it was not having a negative effect and thus should be left alone.  This logic makes no sense.  Hornet Cobra is having no effect on the format and using your logic we can "safely" restrict it.  Maybe I am missing the point.  Please explain what you said again.

[Dr. Sylvan]

This is the list of showings higher than Mana Drain in January, missing two Hulk and one Mud list out of forty decks (I don't think that would change this group much, just increase all the numbers):

82 Wasteland
72 Force of Will
60 Tormod's Crypt
57 Red Elemental Blast
54 Volcanic Island
52 Mana Drain

This is one of the fundamental weaknesses of any attack on Mana Drain, IMO: you'll never find a time when Force of Will is less format-dominant/distorting than Drains, and you CANNOT have Type One without Force of Will. This comparison applies to Drain more than almost any other card because together they form the gold standard of countermagic. The fact that Wasteland is now even more distortionary than FoW indicates that Type One makes a general exemption for anti-combo cards from the restricted list, simply because weakening control is too likely to backfire and create a disastrous metagame.

[Smmenen]

I would never ever call for Force of Will's restriction.

Mana Drain provides mana - Force of Will is card disadvantage and a key ingredient of Type One - it is, as I have been quoted for saying "the Glue that holds type one together" - something I said in an article last June.

If Gencon has 7-8 blue based control decks in the top 8 - don't be surprised if Mana Drain gets restricted.  

Steve

[GodzillA]

Dr. Sylvan,

That may be an overly simplistic way of determining the level of format distortion caused by a given card. As a general rule, it's perfectly acceptable, but it's necessary to recognize the fact that there are less direct ways a certain card can distort the format. In the case of Mana Drain, its mere existence discourages deckbuilders from building decks that contain a significant number of cards costing more than 3 mana. Obviously, because of the speed inherent in the format, this is a logical deckbuilding paradigm in any case, but Mana Drain only serves to reinforce this constriction of deck design boundaries.

In this regard, it's not what you do see appearing in decklists but rather what you don't - namely anything more than 2 or 3 cards costing more than 3 mana in any given deck. Granted, there are exceptions, but for the most part it's true, and its become such a deeply ingrained aspect of Vintage deck design that it's pretty much taken for granted. I feel that Mana Drain is largely responsible.

That said, I don't feel prepared to make a value judgement on the subject. While I feel Mana Drain is responsible for a significant constriction on the underlying "rules" of deck building in the format (which is in itself format distorting), I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad thing. Like Force of Will, Duress, and Wasteland, it's an important part of the checks and balances inherent in the format - the removal of which could be potentially more format distorting than it already is.

[Raph Caron]

Ric_Flair :

I agree that my post was a bit difficult to understand. I edited it.

Basically, my point is that Mana Drain should be restricted for the reasons you listed in your first paragraph about it. While other cards still make it hard for some cards to be played, having to face one less threat is a better situation for them than the statut quo.

For rogue deckbuilders, that means a lot.

Smmenen :

I'm sure some people would try 4 Mind Twists in the Unmask slots of Spoils Mask.

Dr. Sylvan :

All the cards listed are disruption and lands while Mana Drain is disruption + Mana Acceleration.

IMO, Force of Will is a counterspell while Mana Drain is a Mana Accelerator THEN a Counterspell.

[Smmenen]

Ric_Flair :

Smmenen :

I'm sure some people would try 4 Mind Twists in the Unmask slots of Spoils Mask.
.

I dont understand why they would.  That would be awful.  Unmask is a better card in Masknaught than Mind Twist.

Steve

[Raph Caron]

Steve :

I think that any deck using 4 Dark Rituals + 7 Solomoxen is crying to use unrestricted Mind Twists. The possibilty to end the game on turn 1 is just too tempting.

[Ric_Flair]

@Raph Caron:

Thanks for the edit.  I understand, though disagree with, your point.  My French would be AWFUL, so don't worry.  It is my fault for not knowing French, not your fault for only knowing two languages well.

Basically, my point is that Mana Drain should be restricted for the reasons you listed in your first paragraph about it. While other cards still make it hard for some cards to be played, having to face one less threat is a better situation for them than the statut quo.

Well the status quo, as shown by Dr. Sylvan's numbers, is anything but Mana Drain dominated.  If we start restricting cards solely because they are good, Vintage will be Standard in a matter of months.  

Furthermore, Mana Drain is NOT acceleration in the sense that is meaningful to the format (from the DCI perspective, that is restriction worthy).  Acceleration is banned or restricted in Magic formats because it allows one player to get ahead of another player too quickly, that is, it causes an early game swing that is unrecoverable.  Note there are two elements there: early swing AND unrecoverable.  Mana Drain might create an unrecoverable swing, but so do many hundreds of other cards, like Obliterate or Upheaval.  The acceleration that gets tapped by the DCI has both these things.  Mana acceleration is meaningfully problematic when it can be used early and at will.  Mana Drain can be used (practically) only at a time of your opponent's choosing.  Thus without the guarantee of early game use, Mana Drain's acceleration is on par with that of Llanowar Elf or Birds of Paradise.  It is EARNED acceleraton as opposed to the free acceleration that is represented by the Moxen and company.  Moxen can be used without regard for an opponent (at least once, under the worst conditions), but Mana Drain cannot.  Without this interplay, Mana Drain would certainly be too powerful.  That is, if they made a Mana Drain/Duress combination.  But with the forced reactivity of the card it is not as dangerous.  

Finally, Drain may hurt rogue deck builders, but no more so than any other gold standard card (Duress, Lightning Bolt, Force of Will, Wasteland).  I would argue that Mana Drain is one of the weaker gold standard cards in the format.  In fact, the nature of the format is anti-rogue given the power of certain cards.  That is, certain cards are so powerful that they MUST be included.  This, by definition, is bad for the renegade deck makers.

@Steve:

4 Mind Twist is an annoyance, but it is also a problem. Aren't all problem cards an annoyance?  4 Twists would be a battering ram for Black.  Sui's mid and late game would consist of blasting people with Mind Twist, over and over and over again until whatever card advantage they cobbled together after surviving the early game would be gone.  Twist is not as functional in combo, but it is at least as good in Sui and control where they count on a mid game.   No one disputes that Duress is better earlier.  But that has never been the problem with Twist.  Twist was banned because it killed the mid and late games.  Having to contend with 4 would be ruinious for the game.  

I may be wrong about Twist, but just I can't see it.  Convince me (us) why it is not deadly and distortive in the mid to late game, which combo never has anyway.  

Finally, if Twist is unbanned, why not Balance?  Its most powerful use is as a Twist.  Its creature swipe is almost useless and without Zorb there is little chance of a Geddon effect.  Finally the low casting cost of Balance is offset by the set up requirements that Twist does not have.  That is, they are usually cast around the same time.  Or if not an early effective Balance is as rare as an early effective Twist.  And Balance should never come off the list.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I will certainly concede that you cannot do a straight-up FoW/MD comparison. I didn't mean to imply that you could, only that Mana Drain was closer to it than any other card.

If Gencon has 7-8 blue based control decks in the top 8 - don't be surprised if Mana Drain gets restricted.

For all the reasons cited in this thread, under that kind of dominating performance, I would also not be surprised to see it go. I would reserve my right to object, however, unless it showed that dominance for more than one tournament, preferably for most of a month or two consecutively.

Re: Mind Twist: Honestly, so broken. I can't even dream of it.

[Smmenen]

Steve :

I think that any deck using 4 Dark Rituals + 7 Solomoxen is crying to use unrestricted Mind Twists. The possibilty to end the game on turn 1 is just too tempting.

But this is my point - it isn't functional.  

Duress - One Black Mana - you get the BEST card from your opponents hand and then you combo out.

Hymn: for BB, you get two cards at random, of 7, and have the chance of mana screwing them.

Mind Twist.  for 1B you get the opposite of Duress.  For 2B you get a Hymn.  For B5, B6, or B7 you have a good shot of ending the game on turn one.  Which decks are going to be able to blow their wad into that much mana on turn one/two and have it be worth it except for blue based control?  Not many.  Certainly not academy combo.  Not when they have to cast a draw 7 the next turn.  It just isn't functional.

Steve

[Matt]

Steve :

I think that any deck using 4 Dark Rituals + 7 Solomoxen is crying to use unrestricted Mind Twists. The possibilty to end the game on turn 1 is just too tempting.

If I had four Twists available, I'd stoop to Monolith and Vault  for sure and maybe even Crypt. Mind Twist on turn two can be even more devastating than on turn one, so setup cards like Vault and Monolith are not out of the picture by far.

I definitely think that Mind Twist decks could exist.

[Smmenen]

Oh really?  Care to put some together?  I'm willing to bet $5 that no Mind Twist deck is going to beat Tog or Trinistax more than 50% of the time.  Btw, if you are going to use Grim Monolith, you should be using Cabal Therapy first.  

STeve