[Deck] Easter Tendrils

[Ifflejink]

I agree with you on the subject of Frantic Search. I've been running Windfall in it's place. Otherwise, I have this to say: Spoils of the Vault is very, very important here. If you don't have Helm, you can't really go off. Spoils allows you to get a Helm in hand/play first turn, and I like being able to do that. If you already have Helm, just tutor up a Cabal Ritual; having five black mana can be very useful. And, yes, two Tendrils is the right number. It doesn't work to play a Tenrils for 10 one turn, and then another the next. Here's why: in that turn, your opponent could play one of many "you lose" cards i.e. Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Chalice, Null Rod, etc... Two Tendrils simply works.

[urza_insane]

Has anybody tested both Easter and Kobolds? I'm interested to see which is actually faster. I am currently a Kobold person and know very little about easter, but am curious to know which is better. My current Kobold build averages about a turn 2/3 kill. This is of course just from goldfishes without any disruption from the other side. They only thing that really hurts kobolds is if they kill you skullclamp, just like easter and helm. There seem to be many similarities. Anybody tested both? The extent of my knowledge is 3 tests games i had on Appr with the 2 decks. Kobolds won 2 out of the 3. Once it was only because a helm was down and it gave my enough momentum to go off that turn. It seems like a really even match.

[martyr]

your opponent was dumb, then. You generally shouldn't play the helm unless it's

A: First turn and you can go off second turn.

or B: The turn you can go off.

That way, it minimizes its negative impact.

[urza_insane]

With his hand he needed to drop it that turn (second) so he could go off third. I'de say it was a good move seing as to how he didn't know i was playing combo or that it would give me just enough mana to go off. But regardless, it is a REALLY close match. I guess it all relies on personal prefrence. I like kobolds because it can go off without its key component (clamp) unlike egg where it basically needs helm. I have won a few games without clamp, like vs a control deck when the clamp was countered.

[Fistandantilus]

For the versions that run Thoughtcast, how about using Vault of Whispers to get more artifact affinity faster?

[yodoblec]

Simply can't be done, you must thin your deck out with polluted delta and vault just stops all of that.

[Fistandantilus]

It seems to me that Vault of Whispers could replace Gemstone Mines without losing too much, if anything at all.  After all, there are 8 eggs and 4 spheres that can give you whatever color mana you need, and black mana is what you usually need anyway (for dark rituals, cabal rituals, tutors, and tendrils).

[Ifflejink]

I don't think that Vault of Wispers belongs here. Reducing the amount of blue mana in the deck, as well as making it even more succeptable to hate, simply to speed up Thoughtcast just isn't worth it. I play very, very few games in which Thoughtcast cost me more than one mana. Gemstone Mine isn't even run in all versions, and in those that it is you lose the chance to play key sideboard cards.

[Fistandantilus]

How about Tsabo's Web in this deck?

With no Helms in play, it gives you a chance to draw a Helm for only 2 mana, of any color.

With one Helm in play, it lets you draw a card for only one mana, of any color.

With two or more Helms in play, it lets you draw a card for free.

All of this while upping your storm count.

And, if you're playing Thoughtcasts, it stays around to make those cheaper too.

And, if you're playing Tinker, it's another artifact that you can sacrifice to play your Memory Jar.

And, if you're playing Tolarian Academy, it's another artifact to give you another blue mana.

What do you think?

[Kowal]

If by "cripple dragon" you mean "lose to dragon" then definately.  Worst case scenerio, they still get one bazaar activation and the use of compulsion.  They will go off before you can.

[Fistandantilus]

OK, so maybe "cripple" was a strong word.  Even so, does this deck fare better or worse against Dragon with Tsabo's Web in this deck?  Better, I would think.

By the way, you misspelled "definitely" and "scenario."

[Kowal]

Yes, and I was typing with one hand while eating pizza and trying to convey my rage via phone at the DMV.  Nitpicking is an art form, and it's put to better use to make fun of posts like this one.

[Fistandantilus]

Tsabo's Web also potentially would be a thorn in the side of these lands, some of which are used in the prevalent Type 1 decks, or so I hear:

Mishra's Factory
Faerie Conclave
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Library of Alexandria
Maze of Ith

And, of course, the aforementioned Bazaar of Baghdad.  I realize that Tsabo's Web doesn't prevent these lands from being used at least once, but I think that sometimes it might be helpful if your opponent has a hard time using these lands more than once.  

For a list of some of the decks that use these lands, please follow this link:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7145

Back to Dragon: I know that it's a fast deck, capable of going off turn 1, perhaps even more frequently than this deck.  However, I understand that this deck can go off turn 1 also.  Also, I don't think that it has been proved that Dragon always goes off turn 1.  Thus, I don't think that statements that Dragon WILL go off before this deck are entirely accurate.  Dragon might go off before this deck.  Dragon might even go off before this deck more often.  But sometimes Dragon might not go off before this deck.  And Dragon might go off before this deck even less often if this deck has put Tsabo's Web into play.

[Vegeta2711]

I think we all know what decks use said cards. -_-

[Ifflejink]

The problem with Web is that it deactivates quite a few lands used primarily midgame to lategame. If you've made it to either, you probab;y already lost. Also, what does it matter if Web stops Maze of Ith? Easter Tendrils is devoid of creatures. (With the very rare exception of Rector, which attack anyway.

[Ifflejink]

I think that there may be a way to shore up this deck's weaknesses, as in the lack of disruptin and succeptability to hate: Death Wish. Now, hear me out: Death Wish allows for actual answers to threats like Chalice, Null Rod and Trinisphere, just to name a few. With it, you can wish for Naturalize/Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing, Goblin Welder, numerous other disruption, Draw 7's, Bargain, and a nice finishing Tendrils. Sideboarding and disruption have almost always been near-impossible in this deck, but with Death Wish it could actually become competetive. I think that removing a few Spoils or Thoughtcasts would be the easiest way to fit in Wish. Does anyone else agree?

[mrtransistor]

Ifflejink, I completely agree.  The wishes are what this deck was missing.  There's a wsih version posted in this thread by darkmindtone that's actually pretty good.  I think that 3x Death Wish and 1x Burning Wish can replace the Spoils, provided that you run some draw7's maindeck.  Spoils was great for getting early Helms, but it also has the bad habit of killing the caster or removing really good stuff from the game.  Also, drawing Spoils while going off is pretty bad.  Drawing a wish while going off is really good (usually wins you the game as you can just wish for Yawg's Will or Tendrils).  Also, by moving Will and a Tendrils to the board, we open up more room in the deck.

Here are some humble observations from my recent testing (mostly goldfish, some real competition):

Draw7's seem to work very well.  Sometimes, if you go on a spree of drawing/casting eggs, you hit a pocket of land or non-eggs and you stall.  This is bad and usually results in a game loss.  The Draw7's all but ensure that you'll hit something that you need to keep going, and are easily castable with the help of mana acceleration and helm.

Speaking of mana acceleration, I'm finding that a lot of it is needed. Even  4 of each ritual, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Grim Monolith isn't too much.  You need cards and mana to keep the combo going, so anything that gives you a net gain of mana is really good.

For that reason, Tolarian Academy is the superstar of the deck.  That may seem obvious, but it's so true that it's absolutely worth running Crop Rotation.  It pumps the storm count by 1 and gives you an academy, even if you already played a land that turn.  

With all this extra mana, Mind's Desire is certainy castable, and when you cast it, you win.  Even a 4 or 5 point Desire is enough to put you over the top, and sometimes it gets really out of hand (10-15 point Desires are not rare at all).  

On a different subject, I think that 5th Dawn has a few interesting cards for this deck.  First is Night's Whisper:

1B, Socery, You draw 2 cards and lose 2 life.  

This can either replace Thoughtcast, or be used in conjunction with Thoughtcast for some major card advantage.  It's easy to cast (especially with Helm) and it's the right color for this deck.  The 2 life is not a big deal.

Conjurer's Bauble:

1, Artifact, Tap, Sacrifice Conjurer's Bauble: Put up to one target card from your graveyard on the bottom of your library. Draw a card.

To me, this is better than an egg.  It requires no mana to use and it might put one of the broken cards back into your deck for further abuse.

[Fistandantilus]

If you're going to play Night's Whisper and 3x Conjurer's Bauble, why not play Doomsday also?  With Helm in play, you can play Doomsday and set up your 5-card library as follows:

Conjurer's Bauble
Conjurer's Bauble
Conjurer's Bauble
Night's Whisper
Tendrils of Agony

Each time you play and sac a Conjurer's Bauble (after the first one), you put a Conjurer's Bauble from your graveyard onto the bottom of your library.  Night's Whisper gets Tendrils and another Bauble into your hand.  After that, you've got nothing but Baubles in your library to draw, sac, and put back into your library until you're ready to play Tendrils, which is in your hand.

You'd need BBB1 on the turn that you attempted to go off, though (B for Night's Whisper, BB1 for Tendrils).  2 Dark Rituals/Cabal Rituals in your hand at the time you played Doomsday would take care of that, I think.  Doomsday lets you keep the cards in your hand, right?

[Ifflejink]

Conjurer's Bauble seems very useful here. It could probably replace the Mossfire Eggs. I've been thinking about Night's Whisper, but only as a 2 or 3 of. It's cheap and powerful, but antisynergetic with Death Wish. Not much, but still. Doomsday could work work as a Wish target. On the subject of Wishes, I'd like to present a few other Wish targets: Tendrils (obviously), Naturalize, Doomsday, Draw 7's, Bargain/Mind's Desire/Crop Rotation if not mandeck, Goblin Welder, Oxidize. If anyone else has ideas for Wish targets, I'm interested to hear them.

On a side note, the speed and consistency of this deck are getting to competetive levels. Also, has anyone gone to a tournament with this deck? A victory would lend it some credibility.

[Fistandantilus]

I neglected to mention one other advantage of using Doomsday in the way that I described above.  It is an infinite combo.  No matter how much life your opponent has, he loses it all.

The infinite nature of the Helm of Awakening/Doomsday/Night's Whisper/Conjurer's Bauble combo also makes Brain Freeze a potentially more attractive kill card than Tendrils of Agony.  As I mentioned above, with a Helm in play, you need BBB1 to go off using the above combo with Tendrils.  However, if you use Brain Freeze instead of Tendrils, you only need BU to go off using the above combo.  Might be worth considering.  Of course, the drawback of using Brain Freeze is that it isn't an instant kill.

Also, if you already have any of Night's Whisper/Conjurer's Bauble/Kill Card in hand at the time you play Doomsday, you do not need to have Helm already in play.  You can put Helm on top of your 5-card library and omit the card already in your hand.  In this way, Doomsday functions as a kind of tutor.

[Ifflejink]

The deck has an extreme abundance of black mana, so Tendrils is still very easy to cast. Also, to do this you would eiter have to A.sideboard boath, requiring two wishes, or B. Run Brain Freeze or Doomsday maindeck, which woud overall cause too many problems. Also, after wishing for Doomsday, you're down to ten life. After playing it, you're down to five. Night's Whisper doesn't work well with only five life. Not to mention infinite mana isn't a exactly possible here.

[Fistandantilus]

I don't see a problem with running Doomsday and 1 Brain Freeze maindeck.  I would hardly ever be unhappy drawing into Doomsday, as it seems to just say "You Win" so often.  With only 1 Brain Freeze in the deck, it's unlikely that you'll run into it, and if you do, you can always play it and mess your opponent's deck up a bit.

Besides, I fail to see how Night's Whisper is so incongruous with Death Wish and/or Doomsday.  You only need to play it once.  So you win with 3, 2, or even 1 life.  Who cares?  If you're too low on life, don't wish for Doomsday.

[Ifflejink]

The spots that Doomsday and Brain Freeze take up could be used for other, overall more useful cards. There isn't to much tutoring in the deck either, so it would be hard to find the combo when it would be most useful. Also, how would Brain Freeze mess your opponent up? Against something like Slavery or Dragon, you'd just give them a hand in beating you.

[Fistandantilus]

Well, I certainly wouldn't play Brain Freeze against Slavery or Dragon.  I admit, having both Brain Freeze and Tendrils maindeck might be a better idea than having Brain Freeze alone.  Another point I'd like to make is that not all decks that you're playing against will be Slavery or Dragon.  I'm not even sure that most of them will be.  Prove me wrong, if you have the means.

Many decks suffer from having fewer cards to play, especially if some of the cards that they cannot now play are cards that they really needed.  This is how Brain Freeze messes up many decks.  I thought that would be obvious, but you asked, so...

You say that Brain Freeze and Doomsday would occupy spaces that are better reserved for other cards.  However, given that Doomsday pretty much says "I Win," I have a hard time seeing how other cards can be more useful than "I Win."

Your earlier post about not having infinite mana confused me.  One does not need infinite mana to play the combo.

EDIT: Here's another idea.  Instead of putting Tendrils or Brain Freeze into the 5-card "Doomsday Deck," you could put in Disciple of the Vault, although this would be more vulnerable to burn, control magic, and counter magic.  It would require less mana than Tendrils, though, and would be more "on color" and more of an instant kill than Brain Freeze.

[Ifflejink]

I don't like Brain Freeze because loosing cards off the top of your deck doesn't hurt much unless you loose your entire library.
With Doomsday, it just works better on the sideboard as a Wish target. You can easily just wis for Doomsday without having to draw it out of your deck.
About the combo, I just misunderstood. It could, indeed, work.

[MooSE]

I think the new set has some cards worth looking at for this deck.  Nights Whisper looks promising, Plunge Into Darkness also looks good, as sort of a controlled spoils.  With a helm in play it costs the same too.  Also, why isn't skeletal scrying used in this deck?  It could draw cards for less mana, and a large graveyard isn't a problem.  The deck could also be made almost mono black, with a little splash here and there.

[Ephraim]

Right now, this deck seems fairly heavily dependent on four Spoils of the Vault. However, Spoils bears remarkable similarity to Demonic Consultation, a restricted card. Furthermore, the DCI tends to have it in for Tutor cards - and the way everybody talks about it, Spoils seems to be a relatively good one. Is it likely/possible that Spoils will be restricted sometime in the near future? I ask because I've got one copy at present, but I'd hate to invest in more copies of a card that's going to get aced. I'd probably rather try my hand at the Death Wish build.

[DerangedHermit]

Right now, this deck seems fairly heavily dependent on four Spoils of the Vault. However, Spoils bears remarkable similarity to Demonic Consultation, a restricted card. Furthermore, the DCI tends to have it in for Tutor cards - and the way everybody talks about it, Spoils seems to be a relatively good one. Is it likely/possible that Spoils will be restricted sometime in the near future? I ask because I've got one copy at present, but I'd hate to invest in more copies of a card that's going to get aced. I'd probably rather try my hand at the Death Wish build.

Spoils are so cheap ($1 or less) that it honestly doesn't matter if they get restricted or not. Plus, nothing in Type One is breaking Spoils to a really great degree, so I don't forsee Spoils getting restricted anytime soon.

[Ephraim]

Hah! So they are. $0.60 at cardkingdom. I had just assumed that they were going to be pricey, because it's a good card. Next question: Can this deck hope to operate without Underground Sea? I can probably get ahold of Polluted Delta and Gemstone Mine at a reasonable price. City of Brass is a bit harder to do, but it's still possible. Glimmervoid may be right out (but I can try if it's the best option, but it looks like its price is comparable to some dual lands) In the absence of Underground Sea, what combinations of these various cards is most advisable?

Please note that aside from Underground Sea, none of these cards are strictly out of my budget - only that I'd like to build the deck relatively soon, so saving for three or four weeks to get the necessary cards isn't what I'm aiming for.

[Ifflejink]

The mana base I recomend if you don't use duals or you use te version with Wishes is:
4x Gemstone Mine
3x City of Brass
3x Glimmervoid
If you can't afford duals, do you already have a Mana Crypt? They're about $30 currently. BTW, run the Wish build. It's more consistent and doesn't immediately die to any disruption. If you enter a tourney, could you please post your results? A tournament win would add credibility and attract attention from top deckbuilers.

About the Wish version: running Wishes would force the removal of Spoils. This would reduce the number of ways to tutor Helm. The best option I see here is to move 1 Helm to the sideboard; it could work. Does anyone else agree?